Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pellanor 01-15-07, 01:49 PM	We're starting up a new campaign, and I figured I'd help my PCs out by posting up what they're planning on playing, and seeing if you good folk can see any holes in the party, or have any advise for particular characters. The campaign should have a fair mix of Political Intrigue, Wartime Special Ops, Extra-Dimensional travel, and maybe a little bit of dungeon crawling thrown in on the side. The party so far (All starting at 1st level): Elven Scout She'll be filling the "Point Man" roll. Is planing on focusing on archery, and may end up taking Scout 20. She's actually read the Scout Handbook here on the boards, so I have a feeling she'll do okay. Human Sorcerer This guy will be the primary arcane caster. He plans on focusing on Metamagic Feats (Has the special ability from PHB II so metamagic isn't a full round action), and getting craft rod to make some metamagic rods. Plans on taking Sorc 10 / Loremaster 10. From what I here Incantrix is probably the better choice for metamagic, but I'm worried that may put him too much over the power level of the other PCs. Human Justicair The Face of the party, this guy has a solid Int and Cha score (and pretty much everything else, rolled really well). He's planning on focusing on social skills and nonlethal combat (tripping, disarming, grappling, etc..). Is going to start of as rogue probably pick up 2 levels of fighter, then a few more rogue levels before jumping into the PrC. Starting Feats are Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. Human Ruby Knight Vindicator Primary healer and Secondary Tank. We're using the Spontanious Domain variant from the PHB II, and he picked the Healing Domain. His second domain is Destruction. At the moment he'll probably go Cleric 10 / RKV 10, just using feats to qualify. We were debating about dropping the first level of Cleric in favour for a level of Crusader, to get the extra HP, Skills, free up some feats, recovery method, and get Martial Weapon Proficiency. Not sure if the loss of caster level would be worth it, especially since he'll be playing all the way starting from level 1. Human Barbarian Primary Damage Dealer. Is thinking of going straight Barbarian 20. Defianatly doesn't want a FB. So far the only feats he's planning on taking are Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Endurance and Steadfast Determination. Any suggestions for other feats? Devil Bloodline Halfling Hellfire Warlock Secondary Damage Dealer (Blaster focused) / Utility Character. I'm house-ruling the Hellfire Warlock to do ability Burn rather than Damage. The ability to basically add an extra 12d6 to eldritch blast more ore less for free is just a bit much for my liking. I've been trying to find a good PRC for her to finish off the last bit of the build, but at the moment I haven't found anything. Also this player is really poor at game mechanics, so don't suggest anything too complicated, or with too many options. She had a hard enough time remembering the spells for her old Sorc, so I'd hate so see her if she ended up in a Ur Warlock Theurge. At the moment she's also the only Evil PC in the party, though she may switch over to being CN. As you can see most of the builds are fairly simple. None of my PCs are very big on Char Op, and they don't like dipping into PrCs, or anything like that. However they have been having more PC deaths than they like, which is why I'm trying to help them out. Most non-campaign setting books are available. Only ones I'm missing are Complete Mage and Dragon Magic. Some material from FR and Eberron is allowed too, but I don't actually own any of those books. Thanks in advanced :cool:
Hanniball 01-15-07, 03:11 PM	Elven Scout She'll be filling the "Point Man" roll. Is planing on focusing on archery, and may end up taking Scout 20. She's actually read the Scout Handbook here on the boards, so I have a feeling she'll do okay. I'd suggest four levels of, just about, any full-bab progression class. That +16 BAB is damn near essential in any martially focused build. Human Sorcerer This guy will be the primary arcane caster. He plans on focusing on Metamagic Feats (Has the special ability from PHB II so metamagic isn't a full round action), and getting craft rod to make some metamagic rods. Plans on taking Sorc 10 / Loremaster 10. From what I here Incantrix is probably the better choice for metamagic, but I'm worried that may put him too much over the power level of the other PCs. The Loremaster requires 10 ranks in any two knowledge skills. The sorcerer only has access to Know (Arcana) as a class skill. Your PC will have to find another means of attaining a knowledge skill as a class skill in order to qualify before 17th level. You're right in assuming that allowing the Incantatrix will probably set this PC above the power curve. However, only at higher levels in the Prc is this a noticable difference, IMO. If this PC were interested in Sor 6/Inc 4/Lore 10 I would have no problem allowing it, especially with another full caster in the group (the cleric). The Cooperative Metamagic ability precipitates group interaction and, well, cooperation, without overpowering either PC. Human Justicair The Face of the party, this guy has a solid Int and Cha score (and pretty much everything else, rolled really well). He's planning on focusing on social skills and nonlethal combat (tripping, disarming, grappling, etc..). Is going to start of as rogue probably pick up 2 levels of fighter, then a few more rogue levels before jumping into the PrC. Starting Feats are Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. I'd suggest Rog 3/Ranger 2/Ftr 2/Justiciar 10/Shadow Thief of Amn 3. This would require the PC to take Persuasive and Skill Focus: Gather Information, though, two rather unoptimized feats. The Track and TWF feats for free, two ftr bonus feats, and one SToA bonus feat should offset this investment, however. Human Ruby Knight Vindicator Primary healer and Secondary Tank. We're using the Spontanious Domain variant from the PHB II, and he picked the Healing Domain. His second domain is Destruction. At the moment he'll probably go Cleric 10 / RKV 10, just using feats to qualify. We were debating about dropping the first level of Cleric in favour for a level of Crusader, to get the extra HP, Skills, free up some feats, recovery method, and get Martial Weapon Proficiency. Not sure if the loss of caster level would be worth it, especially since he'll be playing all the way starting from level 1. I know nothing of this Vindicator or Crusader class, as I have yet to pick up that book, but I do know that losing a caster level is probably not worth the Crusader benefits, especially at lower levels. Does RKV have an alignment restriction? If not, I'd suggest Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor X/RKV X. Of course, if your PC is really interested in using the Destruction domain's Smite power, more cleric levels is in his best interest. Human Barbarian Primary Damage Dealer. Is thinking of going straight Barbarian 20. Defianatly doesn't want a FB. So far the only feats he's planning on taking are Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Endurance and Steadfast Determination. Any suggestions for other feats? If he's grabbing PA and Imp Sunder, he most assuredly should take Combat Brute as well. Rather than straight Barbarian, I'd suggest Bar 11/Runscarred Berserker 9. This will greatly enhance his offensive and defensive capabilities, but will require a couple feats and the allowance of Unapproachable East. Either way...just my 2 cp
Fwib 01-15-07, 03:16 PM	I'm house-ruling the Hellfire Warlock to do ability Burn rather than DamageOuch. The guy still wanted to be a Hellfire Warlock even after that?
Pellanor 01-15-07, 03:23 PM	Ouch. The guy still wanted to be a Hellfire Warlock even after that?It's not like you lose much by taking Hellfire Warlock. I may change it so that she just can't take the soulmeld or binder level to effectively negate the con damage.
Pellanor 01-15-07, 03:29 PM	The Loremaster requires 10 ranks in any two knowledge skills. The sorcerer only has access to Know (Arcana) as a class skill. Your PC will have to find another means of attaining a knowledge skill as a class skill in order to qualify before 17th level.Thanks, I think we missed that one during character creation. I'd suggest Rog 3/Ranger 2/Ftr 2/Justiciar 10/Shadow Thief of Amn 3. This would require the PC to take Persuasive and Skill Focus: Gather Information, though, two rather unoptimized feats. The Track and TWF feats for free, two ftr bonus feats, and one SToA bonus feat should offset this investment, however.Apparently he hates Ranger and doesn't want to take any levels in it. That and he wants to be LG, so I'm not sure if the Shadow Thief (Don't have it on me) would work. I know nothing of this Vindicator or Crusader class, as I have yet to pick up that book, but I do know that losing a caster level is probably not worth the Crusader benefits, especially at lower levels. Does RKV have an alignment restriction? If not, I'd suggest Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor X/RKV X. Of course, if your PC is really interested in using the Destruction domain's Smite power, more cleric levels is in his best interest.RKV doesn't have an alignment requirement, but he was planning on being CG (Using a custom pantheon in my CS, so no Wee Jas to worry about). If he's grabbing PA and Imp Sunder, he most assuredly should take Combat Brute as well. Rather than straight Barbarian, I'd suggest Bar 11/Runscarred Berserker 9. This will greatly enhance his offensive and defensive capabilities, but will require a couple feats and the allowance of Unapproachable East.I'd forgotten about Combat Brute. Thanks for the reminder. I'll definatly suggest it to him. I'll also suggest Runescarred berserker, but I'm not sure if he'll like it. Either way...just my 2 cpMuch thanks :)
Fwib 01-15-07, 05:52 PM	It's not like you lose much by taking Hellfire Warlock. I may change it so that she just can't take the soulmeld or binder level to effectively negate the con damage.You also might consider drain instead of damage - that way the remediation is more expensive or slower. Depending on how easy you want to make it, of course - were I the DM, I might look askance upon an eldritch chain or area blast with +12d6 damage on it myself.
PhoenixInferno 01-15-07, 06:15 PM	RKV is a good PrC to take for a warrior-Cleric, although you'll have to find some way to get the neccessary skills (I believe some ranks of Hide/MS is required). RKV gets an awesome selection of maneuvers and is very much worth the investment.
GaffeR 01-15-07, 06:17 PM	Might wanna check out the Jasite Knight in my sig. It may help. You might want to swap the levels of Crusader and Cleric for a more caster focused RKV.
Kuroi Kenshi 01-15-07, 06:42 PM	I'd suggest four levels of, just about, any full-bab progression class. That +16 BAB is damn near essential in any martially focused build.I disagree. +16 or higher BAB is overrated, excepting maybe epic play. There are plenty of builds that are excellent combatants that only reach +15 BAB, like this build (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=767803). It's better to evaluate 1 more iterative attack at -15 to hit and +1 to all your other attacks vs more SA dice, more skirmish, or other class abilities that may improve your AB, damage, or similar, rather than valuing that 16th BAB point as an essential component. Or in the case of an archery scout, using Greater Multishot and moving to get the skirmish dice vs full attacking.
Pellanor 01-15-07, 06:52 PM	Once again, thanks for the Advise :) I see you guys like the RKV as much as I do. What are your thoughts on taking the level of crusader to qualify vs taking the two feats? Personally I'm leaning towards the Crusader level, but I'm worried how much the extra CL loss will hurt the party's survivability. You also might consider drain instead of damage - that way the remediation is more expensive or slower. Depending on how easy you want to make it, of course - were I the DM, I might look askance upon an eldritch chain or area blast with +12d6 damage on it myself.Yeah, I was actually pondering turning it into Drain myself. We'll see what the final build is able to do before I look at nerfing it too much. As I look at the Devil Bloodline more, I'm realizing that it seems to be really hindering the character in the low levels. It doesn't give much benefit until level 10, where the EB damage suddenly skyrockets (+6d6 right in that one level). How's this look as an alternate build: Warlock 6 / Mindbender 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Disciple of Asmodeous 10? In this case I'd probably keep the mechanics of hellfire as is, since we're not cheesing out with a bloodline or faster healing/negation methods. The extra damage would help keep up with the loss of caster levels due to DoA. Of course this build would require quite a few skill points to pull off, thanks to all the PrC requirements. Thoughts? Once again, thanks for all the advise :)
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-15-07, 06:56 PM	Human Sorcerer This guy will be the primary arcane caster. He plans on focusing on Metamagic Feats (Has the special ability from PHB II so metamagic isn't a full round action), and getting craft rod to make some metamagic rods. Plans on taking Sorc 10 / Loremaster 10. From what I here Incantrix is probably the better choice for metamagic, but I'm worried that may put him too much over the power level of the other PCs. Make sure he realises its limited to 3+Int uses per day of the metamagic thing. So only use it when it actually matters (i.e. you really need to move or for Quicken). Human Justicair The Face of the party, this guy has a solid Int and Cha score (and pretty much everything else, rolled really well). He's planning on focusing on social skills and nonlethal combat (tripping, disarming, grappling, etc..). Is going to start of as rogue probably pick up 2 levels of fighter, then a few more rogue levels before jumping into the PrC. Starting Feats are Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. At higher levels this guy is gonna have problems. Disarm tends to be less effective as you're fighting less NPCs with weapons, and grappling gets tricky against huge opponets or freedom of movement. What I'd be looking for if I was him would be a way to increase his size category (Warmind with Expansion, perhaps Practiced Manifester to let you augment it, is a good choice, and Sweeping Strike is always awesome). Also, some form of dispel to knock out freedom of movement/buffs when going in for the grapple. I'm pretty sure there are some antimagic manacles in a book somewhere, otherwise maybe a Spell Storing weapon and get the wizard/cleric to cast Dispel Magic into it before combat. Human Ruby Knight Vindicator Primary healer and Secondary Tank. We're using the Spontanious Domain variant from the PHB II, and he picked the Healing Domain. His second domain is Destruction. At the moment he'll probably go Cleric 10 / RKV 10, just using feats to qualify. We were debating about dropping the first level of Cleric in favour for a level of Crusader, to get the extra HP, Skills, free up some feats, recovery method, and get Martial Weapon Proficiency. Not sure if the loss of caster level would be worth it, especially since he'll be playing all the way starting from level 1. I'd definitely take a level of Crusader for this. A good recovery mechanic, as well as saving yourself teh feats is woth one lost caster level. Just don't lose any more. Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 / Prestige Paladin 3 / RKV 10 would be a good start, with either 2 levels of Cleric or a divine PrC to finish with.
PhoenixInferno 01-15-07, 06:58 PM	Crusader level vs Martial Study/Stance feats - I would say that you could get away with using the feats because Clerics can kick enough butt as it is, but if you don't have levels in a martial adept class, you can't recover your maneuvers.
Timlagor 01-16-07, 11:00 AM	If you're playing from 1-X you should go with Cleric4/Crusader1/RKV10. You don't want to wait until 11th level for RKV. I don't know Prestige Paladin but I doubt I'd want to delay RKV for it. The Sorceror probably shouldn't be taknig Craft Rod since he has few Feats anc you can only craft Rods you already have the Feat for: he'll have enough slots to just use the Feats. Look at Fatespinner and see the thread on full-asting Sorc PrCs. There's no point staying in Sorc any longer than you have to. If he wants Loremaster, the Well Read Feat is in order. Extra Rage and Reckless Rage have put a serious dent in the value of taking lots of Barbarian levels. I would certianly take a couple of Fighter levels with such a character anyway. You might point the Warlock player towards the Good PrC (Eldritch Disciple?)
Pellanor 01-16-07, 11:38 AM	Once again, thanks for the feedback :) It seems like there's a pretty even split on grabbing the level of crusader. I'll just let the Player go for whatever he wants then. The Sorceror probably shouldn't be taknig Craft Rod since he has few Feats anc you can only craft Rods you already have the Feat for: he'll have enough slots to just use the Feats. Look at Fatespinner and see the thread on full-asting Sorc PrCs. There's no point staying in Sorc any longer than you have to. If he wants Loremaster, the Well Read Feat is in order.Where is this full-casting sorc PrCs thread? I searched the library and Surreal's Handy links but couldn't find it. Also what book is Well Read in? I didn't see it on wizards feat list. Extra Rage and Reckless Rage have put a serious dent in the value of taking lots of Barbarian levels. I would certainly take a couple of Fighter levels with such a character anyway.I think the player also likes the DR that the barbarian gets. Any other good ways to nab some DR? Either way I'll mention this to him. You might point the Warlock player towards the Good PrC (Eldritch Disciple?)Unfortunately she hates playing good aligned characters. Thanks for the thought though. At higher levels this guy is gonna have problems. Disarm tends to be less effective as you're fighting less NPCs with weapons, and grappling gets tricky against huge opponets or freedom of movement. What I'd be looking for if I was him would be a way to increase his size category (Warmind with Expansion, perhaps Practiced Manifester to let you augment it, is a good choice, and Sweeping Strike is always awesome). Also, some form of dispel to knock out freedom of movement/buffs when going in for the grapple. I'm pretty sure there are some antimagic manacles in a book somewhere, otherwise maybe a Spell Storing weapon and get the wizard/cleric to cast Dispel Magic into it before combat.Magebane Manacles are in the Arms and Equipment guide. A little pricey at 132k gp though. Good advise on the dispelling. That will definitely help out.
nittanytbone 01-16-07, 12:04 PM	I'd say you're missing a cleric. Those strong will saves, curative spells, CoDzilla goodness, and so on will be missed by everyone. Especially if there is extraplanar stuff -- clerics are pretty good at dealing with outsiders due to their spell lists and durability.
Tektonik 01-16-07, 12:37 PM	They have one just not focused on spell casting. I would hope the warlock buys some wands of cure "x" wounds cause if the cleric is in melee and split from the casters, someone needs to heal the ranged group.
Pellanor 01-16-07, 02:40 PM	They have one just not focused on spell casting. I would hope the warlock buys some wands of cure "x" wounds cause if the cleric is in melee and split from the casters, someone needs to heal the ranged group.Now that's a good idea. For some reason I completely forgot that Warlocks are UMD Ninjas.
Endarire 01-16-07, 04:07 PM	The barbarian would be a lot better off without Endurance and Improved Sunder, instead grabbing Cleave. If he intends to get Combat Brute, however, he'll need Improved Sunder. Since he lacks caster levels, Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment and Blind-Sight are worthwhile. -EE
Pellanor 01-16-07, 04:42 PM	Endurance is a prerequisite for Steadfast Determination, which will give him non-crappy will saves. As for pierce magical concealment, that's a good suggestion.