Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NightsWail 12-11-06, 10:04 AM	Hi, I'm going to play a second campaign starting after christmas, that is going from level 1 untill epic levels. I always wanted to try out some sort of gish build but I really don't know much about them and it always seems to me like they are really uneffective in early levels. Are there any gish builds out there that are effective while leveling, while still retaining 9th level spells and a decent BAB(17+) at 20? Any advice would be appreciated. Also in a gish build, should I focus the feats on enhancing melee damage or more on the casting side. Please post your thoughts abput those matters, and which gish builds you think are somewhat effective during the early stages. I have almost all books available but no setting-specific material can be used and I'd rather avoid ToB since my Dm doesn't have it and isn't to keen on learning all the complicated stuff in it ;) NightsWail
Think0028 12-11-06, 10:42 AM	Duskblade 20 doesn't get 9th level spells but is a playable 1-20 build. Can't think of any full casting ones that are good at low levels at the moment, though.
hogarth 12-11-06, 11:11 AM	Changeling Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Fist of Raziel Take the Magic and Transformation domains.
FriendlyFrog 12-11-06, 12:01 PM	Bard/Sublime chord based gish builds are good at all levels, but won't bloom fully until you get access to higher level of spells at the later levels. One gish build I've lately been considering of playing is Fighter 1/Wizard 2Human paragon 3/Spellsword 3/Abjurant champion 5/Eldritch knight 6. Those second and level of Spellsword could easily be changed to more Eldritch knight for 9th level spells. Viable at all levels is also a matter of perspectives. A Wizard 5/Knight phantom 10/Abjurant champion 5 can do pretty well at all levels, but he'd be more like a pure Wizard until he can get Polymorph to help with his fighting skills and survivability. I personally think that gishes are warriors first, casters second, so I'd personally take melee feats. But some feats like Quicken spell are still very good to have.
SageBahamut 12-11-06, 12:19 PM	I've actually had some fun playing a Scout/Wizard who eventually went Eldritch Knight after a two-level Fighter dip. Is it CO-style optimal? Probably not, but I was never at a loss for something to do, in combat or out.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-11-06, 12:20 PM	A Sublime Chord gish should be decent at lower levels. How about: Paladin 2 / Bard 7 / Eldritch Knight 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +3 That gets you BAB+17, 9th level spells, Bardic Music (I recommend Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn for Cha to attack rolls) and the Abjurant Champion goodies.
Phoenix00 12-11-06, 12:21 PM	Not what you are looking for (yet at the same very time exactly what you are looking for) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754049 Pay attention to that thread, I just started it, but it is effectively a new take on a gish.
Surreal 12-11-06, 12:26 PM	Half-elf Bard 4*/Incarnate or Totemist 2/Marshall 1/Mindbender 1/Soulcaster 2/Sublime Chord 2/Soulcaster +8 *substitution levels from Races of Destiny Starting out, you have all the basics for a strong crazy diplomacy build with Bard/Marshall. Alternatively, you could start with Totemist for reasonably strong melee skills. Totemist is more powerful, but Incarnate is much better for skills if you'd rather play the support roll. The first 10 levels you play party face and skill monkey, supporting your allies with music, auras, and some spells. Level 11+ your casting comes into its own, further augmented by incarnum if need be.
Lilt 12-11-06, 12:55 PM	If you're going from 1 to 20 then I think an important thing to avoid is change. What do I mean by that? Well, the spellsword is a nice class, but wearing real armor and wearing bracers of armor are two completely different things as far as your character's equipment is concerned. One level you're best-off with bracers of armor and the next you're best-off with a mithril breastplate. To boot, your character's ability to wear heavy armor increases as they level-up, meaning that your character is going to be best-equipped by selling your old armor and buying something heavier every second level or so. Given how you sell things at half price, that doesn't make much monetary sense. If you're looking for something playable then I'd advise avoiding having too many of such change points, but in any multiclass build I suppose that a few are unavoidable. In-fact you may want to consider lumping many change points into one, like by taking Battlecaster on the same level that you get into Knight Phantom so your next armor purchase can last into the late levels. Runesmith from RoS is one way to lump all of your change points into one. It takes you from casting in no armor to casting in full plate with a tower shield in one fell swoop. I'm playign a Dwarf Fighter/Wizard going Runesmith, and I've found it pretty playable so-far. Note that dawrves get proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe, which is great if you have Enlarge Person as that 1d10 becomes a mighty 2d8. You can also try to stick to spells without somatic components (True Strike, Critical Strike, Flame Blade, ETC) if you want to wear armor before you get to runesmith.
GaffeR 12-11-06, 01:46 PM	I also like Runesmith for a lower level Gish. You can get in pretty easily with Fighter 1/Wiz 4.. then.. Runesmith 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 Removes ASF by level 6, which is the earliest I've seen from any of the gish builds (non-psi, at least).
PhaedrusXY 12-11-06, 02:45 PM	Warforged Psion with Adamantium Body going into Slayer. Take Psicrystal Affinity ASAP. Use Share Pain to divert half your damage to the psicrystal, and share Psionic Repair Damage (and Vigor) with it to get very cheap and effective self-healing. I'd prefer Shaper for the discipline, but Egoist is a nice second. Either way, you're going to want to take Expanded Knowledge a couple of times at least. You could also leave off the Slayer entirely, and take Solicit Psicrystal and Control Body. Then control your own body via your psicrystal, and manifest powers using your own actions. If you go this route, I'd take Psionic Body (which might not be a bad idea either way). Improved Toughness is another option. There is a link to a warforged psion thread in my sig (The Toolkit), and a link to a thread with further research on the topic near the bottom of that thread.
Psifon 12-11-06, 02:54 PM	I think this whole thread is bass-ackwards. What do you want your character to DO? I mean, 9th level spells and a 17 BAB are attainable in many different ways. Do you want to do massive damage? Are you looking at being a ray monkey? Do you want a tank? To you want high mobility? There are lots and lots of capabilities, and we don't even know if you want a melee specialist or an archer. I see lots of people are putting forth all kinds of suggestions that are great explanations of what THEY want THEIR character to be capable of. What role do you want to fill in the party? Do you want to be the front line fighter? Do you want to be fire support? How about a second line fighter? All of these niches are highly available to a well - built gish, and NONE of them can be expressed by a single line of text such as: Paladin 2 / Bard 7 / Eldritch Knight 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +3 (sorry Dave). Give us a role to fill, and let us work together on figuring out the best way to fill it. Personally, I perfer a good strong melee combatant, with good AC, good mobility and a bag of powerful tricks. This is expressed in my gish who is built around Leap Attack and the wraithstrike spell. A tank, on the other hand, might be built around casting in full plate and channeling spells through his weapon so he can clobber the enemie's front line as he stands there swinging his axe. A sniper might be a spontaneous caster with a bunch of ray spells who does his best not to see melee combat in spite of his good BAB. Such a character wouldn't need to bother with AC much at all. Also, a lot depends on combat style. Consider: Sword and Board Two weapon fighting Two handed figthing one handed fighting Archery Ray specialist Grappler Cavalry Gish can do all of these, but each figting style is supported by a different array of spells, feats and class abilities. Note that differnet fighting styles work well with different roles. For example a two handed fighter or a two weapon fighter work well with tanking (thanks to the shield spell). A ray specialist needs to be mobile, so he can get clear shots and stay out of harm's way. A Cavalry fighter needs to be able to get into charging position easily, and would benefit from quickened dimension leap for himself and his familiar/mount so they can get into position and charge in the same round. See what I mean? Tell us more about what you want.
NightsWail 12-11-06, 03:35 PM	You're right I should have talked about that more from the start on, but thanks to all of you that have posted so far for your suggestions. Basically I want a maximum of melee damage enhanced by buff spells and stuff like Arcane Strike etc, while having the flexibility of magic to do all kinds of useful things outside of combat situations. In combat I'd rather focus my Spells on improving my melee capacity, mostly offense, I don't like defensive builds ;) An archery build would also be interesting, I haven't even thought about it, but it sounds good as well, as long as it is capable of good damage. In melee I'd prefer THF or TWF, I never got along well with sword+board or grapple builds. The only route I don't want to take is the Bard/Sublime Chord way for I hate roleplaying a bard.^^ So basically I want maximum damage enhanced by spells in combat situations, while having some nice utility and roleplaying-fun with magic outside of combat. Any help is appreciated. Another direction that I thought about, though a completely different direction, would be a Shapeshifter-Druid. I guess I could play this a bit like a gish because of the fast and easy switching between melee forms and caster form Any opinions on that? Would I be capable of dealing respectable melee damage as a shapeshifting druid? EDIT:I think I'll open a new thread on Druids so this can stay about gishes ;) NightsWail
Kolsus_Hayl 12-11-06, 03:49 PM	I agree. Gimme a thread here.
Hyfigh 12-11-06, 03:57 PM	Something like Pal 2/Monk 1/Battle Sorc 3/Spellsward 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 8 is playable 1-20. Lower levels has a decent BAB. Taking the Asthetic Sorcerer feat gives you Cha to AC. After about level 8 your casting is advancing at a rate to start keeping up with your melee abilities. Take weapon finesse and you have a little more MAD reduction. Honestly through the lower levels I'd play this even over a fighter.
Psifon 12-11-06, 04:40 PM	I am running the following character currently and he works just great. Feel free to rip off any ideas you want. Human 1 Fighter 1 Power Attack (FB), Cleave, Combat Casting 2 Wizard 1 Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll 3 Wizard 2 Practiced Spell Caster 4 Wizard 3 -- 5 Wizard 4 -- 6 Fighter 2 Leap Attack, Combat Reflexes (FB) 7 Spellsword 1 Ignore Spell Failure 10% 8 Eldritch Knight 1 EWP: Longaxe (FB) 9 Abjurant Champion 1 Extend Spell Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration 10 Abjurant Champion 2 Swift Abjuration 11 Abjurant Champion 3 -- 12 Abjurant Champion 4 Iron Will, Arcane Boost 13 Incantatrix 1 Persistent Spell (IB), Focused Study 14 Incantatrix 2 Cooperative Metamagic 15 Incantatrix 3 Extraordinary Spell Aim, Metamagic Effect 16 Incantatrix 4 Quicken Spell(IB) 17 Abjurant Champion 5 Martial Arcanist 18 Eldritch Knight 2 <feat> 19 Eldritch Knight 3 -- 20 Eldritch Knight 4 -- This nets a +16 BAB and a CL = 17 This guy's shtick is simple: Buff up (heroism, craft magic tattoo, assorted AC buffing spells, etc.) get large where space alows, and leap attack foes for massive damage. I have either 10' or 20' reach while large due to the way the long axe works. When I really need to hit I cast wraithstrike or true trike if I have the time. His weapon is an Adamantium long axe that I made myself using Fox's cunning to buff my INT, and Magecraft (Eberron Campaign Setting) to gain a +5 compenence bonus on my craft skill. I then bought the adamantium and crafted the whole thing in one minute using a scroll of fabricate. Taking 10 on the roll these bonuses let me hit the DC20 without any actual skill ranks in weaponsmithing, and I saved about 1000gp making it myself in this way. The axe has the Valorous enchantment on it (from Unapproachable East). This gives me double damage on a charge. This stacks with Leap Attack damage because one multiplies the PA damage, and the other multiplies the total weapon damage. There are few creatures that can survive a charge from this guy. At higher levels, I will be using extrordinary spell aim to make antimagic shells that don't effect me, and I can also make wraithstrike persistant, so I can simply power attack all the time, since all my attacks are resolved as touch attacks. This is made possible through the Incantatrix PrC. Some things of note: 1) Using the Jump Spell and Expeditious Retreat, I can easily jump over mooks to get to the BBEG (remember you get a +4 to jump checks for each 10 of movement over 30') 2) When not charging, he has the choice of having reach, and he uses combat reflexes to get an extra AoO or two. I find that I need to buff my dex, because when enlarge person reduces my dex, so I dont' get as many AoO's 3) I am able to retain the role of front-line fighter by using NO armor at all, and simply casting mage armor (or greater mage armor), alter self (or polymorph), Dragon Scales, and shield. This combo gives me an AC of about 28-30, wich is respectable. As I advance as an Abj Champ this will improve further. I am not unhittable, but I don't usually need to worry too much about the mooks. Only major monsters are hitting me with any kind of regularity. As I level, I will have more spells to spare to grant me a miss chance as well (greater mirror image is comming on line next level) 4) He is not a tank. He is about being mobile and hitting hard. My party already has a tank (a warforged fighter) who holds the front line. This works well, because my reach lets me fight over his shoulder. The -4 to hit will be a non issue when persistant wraithstrike comes online. 5) I can already more than make up for the relatively low BAB through the use of the heroism and create magic tattoo spells. These combine to give me a +5 attack bonus that stacks with the enhancement bonus on my weapon. I can generally power attack with impunity, because my attack bonus is so good. Again, when I am worried about hitting, I just cast wraithstrike (I usually take this spell twice at my current level). 6) HP are a bit of a problem. I find that an extended false life can put me on the par with the fighter's HP if I have a day ahead of time to cast it (it lasts 18 hours at 9th level when extended - just cast before bed time). I will soon be adding spell storing to my weapon, which will add a vampiric touch to my attack for 5d6 more HP. 7) 2nd level was a problem for this guy. His sub-par HP and lack of meaningful defensive spells (I wore armor and none were verbal-only) hurt. First level was fine (I was just a fighter 1 back then) and 3rd level was great (turning into a troglodyte gave me a huge AC jump that the monsters are just catching up to now). Other than that I have found this character to be not only highly playable, but the group superstar. It is SO sexy when he drops 100+ points of damage in a single hit, and being able to dimension leap out of the gullet of the monster that just swallowed me to line up another charge attack was awsome. Once he gets 6th level spells, he will be able to quicken a dimension leap and teleport and charge in the same round. So you can see that this build is geared toward synergizing specific spell effects with his combat style. This is what you want to shoot for. Creating a character that has a huge number of special abilities is great, but creating a character that has a few hand-picked special abilities that synergize for awsome effect is the ideal. Once you have that worked out, THEN figure out what other capabilities you want to build in.
NightsWail 12-11-06, 04:50 PM	This Build sounds really neat, and if you don't mind, I'll take some of it for my character.The only problems I see are in levels 5 and 6 when the hp are really low compared to a fighter, but I guess I'll just stand a bit behind the front-line during that time. Thanks a lot for sharing this build, I will certainly give it a try. NightsWail
Skeeve 12-11-06, 04:59 PM	EDIT: Man, I need to learn to read more effectively - I didn't even notice you didn't want to use ToB.
Psifon 12-11-06, 05:05 PM	Generally the best route for massive damage output is to take a two handed weapon, combined with power attack and wraithstrike. This will net you good damage output plus an occasional round of "I hit everything" thanks to wraithstrike. With this kind of build, you want to do two things: 1) Do as much damage per swing 2) Swing as often as possible #1 is easy. Power attack and wraithstrike/true strike cover this well. Just take a good damaging weapon (like greatsword or glaive) #2 is also easy, but you have more choices to make. A) Combat Reflexes. Pros: This works well and is generally safe. It is great to combine with a reach weapon. If you want to spend the feat on an exotic weapon, I highly recommend either long axe or dwarven war pike. Cons: Requires a good Dex stat. YMMV on this. Combine with: Enlarge Person/Polymorph for better reach. B) Robilar's Gambit Pros: Makes you very dangerous to hit Cons: You don't have the HP to carry this off for long. As such you need a good CON score. Also, You can't access this until late in your build (BAB of +12 is require IIRC). Combine With: Fire Shield or any other spell that punishes them for attacking you. Also works well with the new Retributive Spell feat in the Complete Mage. C) Cleave/Great Cleave Pros: Cleave is just a great feat. You will never regret taking cleave. Great cleave is wonderful so long as the mooks (and you will be fighting mooks with this) have less HP than you do damage. Cons: Great cleave outlives it's usefullness at higher levels, when creatures tend to have a lot of HP. Combine with: AoE attacks (like fireball). The fireball drops the HP of the group so that your great cleave ability can make quick work of the bad guys. This works best if the party wizard (no you are not the party wizard) cast the fireball for you. As you can see what you choose can, and should depend on your ability scores and your party composition. Also note that none of these are mutually exclusive if you have the ability scores to pull them off. Even if you don't have the ability scores you would like, magic can compensate for most of these limitations (gautlets of dex, etc), just send your money wisely.
NightsWail 12-11-06, 05:11 PM	How would you recommend settig the stats for a build like the one you posted before? We'll play with 30 pt buy so I'm considering something like this: STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 15 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 And I'd love to know, which spell/effect lets you turn yourself into a troglodyte at level 3?
GaffeR 12-11-06, 05:14 PM	And I'd love to know, which spell/effect lets you turn yourself into a troglodyte at level 3? Alter Self.
NightsWail 12-11-06, 05:24 PM	How can you get 2nd level spells as only a level 2 wizard? I thought Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect the number of spells known/available? Sorry for those stupid questions but I'm just getting into the deeper stuff of D&D, so far we never used many of the more complicated rules simply because noone needed them for their caracters.
epifreak 12-11-06, 05:30 PM	You mentioned an archer build: Fighter 1, Sorceror 6, Eldritch Knight 2, Arcane Archer 2, Eldritch Knight 8, Any +1 CL class 1. You're getting the requisite 4 attacks per round (16 BAB) and 9th level spells (as level 16, CL 20 with practiced spellcaster). The downsides are that you're early levels are pretty feat intensive to get into arcane archer, and you have to be an elf. At level 1, you're a pretty generic elven archer/fighter, then you become pretty much a pure caster with a backup weapon, before really learning to blend the style in the 8+ era. It ought to be pretty viable.
GaffeR 12-11-06, 05:32 PM	How can you get 2nd level spells as only a level 2 wizard? I thought Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect the number of spells known/available? Practiced only increases your effective caster level by 4 (up to your HD). You could use 2nd level spells via Precocious apprentice (spell, in that case), wands, scrolls, or the like.
Psifon 12-11-06, 05:38 PM	How can you get 2nd level spells as only a level 2 wizard? I thought Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect the number of spells known/available? Sorry for those stupid questions but I'm just getting into the deeper stuff of D&D, so far we never used many of the more complicated rules simply because noone needed them for their caracters. Whoops, my bad. 2nd level spells come on line at character level 4. The sagging HP are a bit of a problem. To be honest, I was dropping all the time during the 2nd and 3rd levels of play. People thought my character was a wimp. I used a glaive a lot back then, because I needed the reach and I needed to hide behind the party meat shield. By 4th level you can compensate by taking Alter Self for AC and False Life for HP. This gives you a great AC and Hp as good as a fighter's. Alternately, take Alter Self and Mirror Image. This works great if you are in melee alot (not getting hit is better than more HP actually), but not so great against area of effect attacks (you have a weak reflex save). Note that at this point, you are pretty much using all your magic to let you just keep up with the fighter in the party (and he has a better total attack bonus and feats to boot). This turns around at level 7 when you can use create magic tattoo for a total of a +3 attack bonus (and you cast it a day ahead of time) and heroism for an additional +2 to hit. Now you are really cooking!
King Bulba 12-11-06, 06:29 PM	Requires some serious MAD to be REALLY effective so if you are use point buy dont bother. (point buy is retarded :P ) Swordsage2/BattleSorcerer4/JadePhenoxMage10/Swordsage2/Battlesorcerer2 Swordsage gets 9th level manuvers, and battlesorcerer gets 7th level spells. Low levels you have equilivant of 3/4ths bab but you have manuvers to compinsate melee dps. Your wis to ac while in armor boosts your defenses up high. Mid levels are where you get the goodies that make it great. At level 8 you get a stance you can be in all day that you burn a spell to get DR/evil. By then you have 3rd level spells so you have DR 6/evil. With your HIGH AC and DR you are a defensive MONSTER! With extended dragon skin up, and shield up with your dex, wis, armor, deflection and dodge bonus from the stance you can get your AC into the 40's at lvl 10. Later on you cap out with a 5th level spell DR 10/evil! BTW with the multiclassing you have all decent saves and will is good. Ring of evasion would go a long way. Also at level 7 you can channel as a swift action your spells to get a +4 to hit and 1d0 per spell level. Use your 0 level spells to get a plain +4 to hit if your saving a manuver! I really like the build, not to forget that you have 16 or 17 bab! Use the cloak of deception to greater invise for the round then power attack with flashing sun so you get an extra attack in the round, with haste that's 6 attacks with a two handed weapon with power attack goodness!
NightsWail 12-12-06, 12:09 PM	I'd love to try a ToB build but unfortunately my DM doesn't want us to use ToB because she's to lazy to learn all the new rules in it ;) I've decided to play Psifons build with some changes, because it really seems to be what I#m looking for. The last thing to set are my stats. Id probably take it this way: STR: 16 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 15 WIS: 8 CHA: 8 Is that ok for a gish or should I change something? (30-pt-buy)
Psifon 12-12-06, 12:29 PM	Looks good to me. I wouldn't change a thing.
Endarire 12-12-06, 11:32 PM	Human Paragon1/FULL BAB1/Wizard2/Paragon+2/Ruathar2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred ExorcistX/Maybe finish Ruathar -EE
Psifon 12-13-06, 11:08 AM	Human Paragon1/FULL BAB1/Wizard2/Paragon+2/Ruathar2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred ExorcistX/Maybe finish Ruathar -EE See, now this is what I am talking about. what does it do? What do you get out of all of this, and how do you take best advantage of it? Or is it just a long series of class abilities that don't come together to form a cohesive idea?
1hitparry 12-13-06, 11:42 AM	I've only seen 2 or 3 gishes, but from my experience, the only levels you suck at are the first few levels of the casting class. Even then, it's not so much that you suck that you have to spend a few round buffing.