Any good Druid/Monk builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any good Druid/Monk builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DDogwood
11-17-05, 06:05 PM I was wondering if anyone had any good Druid/Monk builds. I don't know of any Prestige Class or feats specifically designed for this combo, which is too bad because there is some nice potential for synergy there. The Wis to AC bonus would be nice at lower levels (before you can afford Wild armor), and some of the Monk bonus feats would be even better in Wildshape.

Prestige Classes that would help are probably Sacred Fist and Nature's Warrior, but I haven't been able to come up with anything more optimal than Druid 8/Monk 2/Sacred Fist 10, or Druid 5/Monk 4/Sacred Fist 1/Master of the North Wind 10 (but I don't like Dragon prestige classes) Any suggestions?
42up
11-17-05, 06:09 PM the VOP monk 2/druid 18

you miss out on huge elementals though....
rilem
11-17-05, 06:41 PM Monk2/Druid4/SacredFist4/VerdantLord10

BAB 18, Caster level 17 (I think, can't recall details of VL). Verdant Lord is 3.0, but was never updated, so still technically legal.
AramilWindwalker
11-17-05, 09:30 PM I like ex monk 2/druid 4/sacred fist 9/lion of talisid(BoED)5
+16 BAB, CL 18(since the text says at each level in sacred fist for CL), saves +16/11/14, full attack at the end of a charge and flurry of blows combo nicely, 4+int skill points all the way, wisdom synergy, minor wildshaping, decent unarmed damage(worship bahamut and get gauntlets of the talon and a monk's belt to max it out if you wish), lots of minor class-based goodies, evasion, etc, I may have to actually try this build soon....

just beware the alignment change between levels 2 and 3 (LN or LG(or LE if you're feisty) to NG), and the "dump" feats required for both PrCs.(combat casting and that companions one) Human or helf-elf to avoid exp penalties, I'd go human to help ease the feat squeeze.
DDogwood
11-18-05, 03:15 PM I like ex monk 2/druid 4/sacred fist 9/lion of talisid(BoED)5
+16 BAB, CL 18(since the text says at each level in sacred fist for CL

I'm not 100% keen on this build, for 3 reasons:
- Alignment changes are tricky to work into a build - they are too DM-dependent
- When the text and the table disagree, you also run into a potential DM argument. I think most DMs will house-rule that the table overrides the text in this case
- You don't get Wild Shape until level 16 (I think?) or large Wild Shape until level 19 - if you're waiting that long, isn't it better to go for a higher CL in order to get more uses of Shapechange?

Rilem: Where is Verdant Lord from?
Warlord Griffin
11-18-05, 03:57 PM Vow of Poverty: Rashemen Human: Monk 1/ Druid 17
Somewhere in the build ASCEND TO SAINTHOOD that should take care of just about all your problems wisdom to ac TWICE is oh so good.
Origin
11-18-05, 04:13 PM Vow of Poverty: Rashemen Human: Monk 1/ Druid 17
Somewhere in the build ASCEND TO SAINTHOOD that should take care of just about all your problems wisdom to ac TWICE is oh so good.
They don't stack. You only get AC to once.
A good druid/monk build is using the variant druid, and you can find it at
http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

Druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.

Gain
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

Lose
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

Or you could of course just use a Monk's Belt, but it's not as cool. By the way, that is a completely legal variant, not houseruled. I'm not sure where it's found though.
Warlord Griffin
11-18-05, 04:25 PM "They don't stack. You only get AC to once."

Where pray tell does it say that the bonus from sainthood and the bonus from monk levels do not stack?
Origin
11-18-05, 04:28 PM Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack?
Logically, I don't think it makes much sense to get the same bonus for essentially the same training.
Of course, it's probably one of those things that you'll never find the answer for, excluding an eventual Errata or FAQ. I'd say it's up to the DM, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
fnord
11-18-05, 05:00 PM Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack?

How 'bout the bit where a Monk's AC bonus is an unnamed bonus? And the bit where unnamed bonuses stack with everything except themselves?
UMiskatonic
11-18-05, 05:22 PM The two most obvious are:

Monk 1/Druid 19
Monk 2/Druid 4/Sacred Fist 8/XXX 6

If you are going with the first, you are primarily a caster with better wildshape options, +2 to all saves, etc.

With the second, I'd invest heavily in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's Wings, and Pounce and so forth. They add a lot of combat oomph, and can be used to circumvent some of the problems with VoP.

Flight is easy to fix, and a level of Seeker of the Misty Isle gets you travel domain. Incorporeal creatures are still a pain, but for the ones that are undead, there's Master of Radiance, and the sun spells.
Taliesin52
11-21-05, 09:48 PM Right now I'm playing a Mnk1/Dru5/Master of many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3

Lose out on a LOT of spells. However, the ability to wild shape into big gianty forms (Cave Troll, War Troll, any giant) more than makes up for it. At the moment, I go for Cave Troll, and weild a quarterstaff with spikes cast upon it, and flurry frequently.

The wisdom to AC along with dex, and a high natural armor bonus, plus some spells keeps your AC pretty high.
rilem
11-21-05, 10:12 PM Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack?

If I recall correctly, the Saint's bonus is a Insight bonus; the Monk's is unnamed. Different sources, different names. Per rules, they stack.

This has been established for a long time — go back to the earliest discussions of the duelist & bladesinger's AC bonuses (one of which is unnamed, the other is a dodge bonus). Those stack, too.

This sort of thing can be abused — all those sad attempts to get super-high saves by mixing Divine Grace from Blackguard and Paladin of Slaughter, etc. The Saint/Monk thing is nowhere near that cheesy (though I'll admit the Saint itself is way overpowered at +2 LA.)
jameswilliamogle
11-21-05, 11:04 PM Druidic Avenger 1 (1), Monk (Cobra Strike Variant) 7 (2-5, 11-13), Shou Disciple 5 (6-10), Shiba Protector 1 (14), Blade Dancer 6 (15-20), w/ Snow Tiger Berserker at 1st level
catharz
11-22-05, 12:42 PM If you can get around the XP penalty, Halfling Monk 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 8.
nittanytbone
11-22-05, 02:02 PM I've got a few questions to add on here.

First, when would you take the two monk levels, assuming you were starting from first level? There doesn't seem to be a good reason to front-load them (same SP and HP as druid), and at first level having the free wolf animal companion seems better than being a monk. I'm thinking somewhere around after 5 to 7 druid levels is optimal, as most of the monk features you want aren't terribly useful until you can wildshape.

Next, how many levels would you take? One or two? One means less disruption in casting progression... Two gets you optimal saves & evasion. Is it worth it to lose even more casting power?

Finally, which bonus feats would you go for?

Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows: Taking combat reflexes at 2nd level seems like a no brainer unless your DM lets you deflect projectiles while wildshaped.

Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist: This is tougher. Stunning fist is a superior feat that most druids could never get any other way, and with the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple is just one feat away. But druids get so few feats, you'd probably have to wait until 9th level to get IG and you might be passing up something better (item creation perhaps?).

Any thoughts? Thanks.
X-Codes
11-22-05, 09:01 PM If you can get around the XP penalty, Halfling Monk 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 8.

No dice. Literally. Daggerspell Shaper requires 1d6 Sneak Attack or Skirmish.

Ninja 1/Druid 9/Daggerspell Shaper 10 gives 18th level casting with lots of wildshape options. If you want to focus more on wildshaping than spellcasting then Ninja 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 10 with 4 levels of Warshaper or Nature's Warrior to fill out the rest.
catharz
11-22-05, 09:13 PM No dice. Literally. Daggerspell Shaper requires 1d6 Sneak Attack or Skirmish.
Which is why I said Halfling Monk :rolleyes:
X-Codes
11-22-05, 09:38 PM Which is why I said Halfling Monk :rolleyes:

Ah, forgot about that. Have to be a halfling, though. =/

Ninja/Druid is much more accessible, and I would still reccomend it over Halfling Monk.
catharz
11-22-05, 09:52 PM Ah, forgot about that. Have to be a halfling, though. =/

Ninja/Druid is much more accessible, and I would still reccomend it over Halfling Monk.

Ya, Ninja helps with the XP penalty. Unfortunately, Ninja also lacks the vital Improved Unarmed Strike and that wonderful Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple. And the monk gets great skill points.
Iaimeki
11-23-05, 07:05 PM Druids get four categories of class features: animal companion, wild shape, casting, and everything else. I personally like casting and wild shape the most, but the trick is that the casting isn't all that useful without an animal companion or wild shape. Thus, druid/monk has trouble working because it's hard to advance even two of their class features and monk abilities too. I've never liked monk/druid/sacred fist for that reason, because druid casting is weak without wild shape or an animal companion, and sacred fist only advances casting and monk abilities. The most viable builds tend to splash one or two levels of monk, then take druid and/or druid PrCs the rest of the way.

For my money, the most druidish/monkish build I've been able to come up with uses the divine variant on the enlightened fist (read the class's adaptation section in CA) and master of the north wind (DrM #313).

Monk 1/Druid 1-5/Enlightened Fist 1/Master of the North Wind 1-10/Enlightened Fist 2-4

You get 15th level monk AC, movement, and unarmed damage, wild shape as a 10th-level druid, the ability to cast touch spells as part of a full attack, and casting as a 16th-level druid. There are several variations, the simplest and best of which is probably replacing enlightened fist 3-4 with druid 6-7, to get plant wild shape and 9th-level spells.

I've often tried to figure out how to do a druid/monk based on using a quarterstaff, but unfortunately there aren't really any PrCs for that: master of the north wind is better at wild shape, if you're going to useit, and sacred fists are forbidden from using weapons.
Tony Vargas
11-23-05, 08:11 PM Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist: This is tougher. Stunning fist is a superior feat that most druids could never get any other way, and with the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple is just one feat away. Any thoughts? Thanks. Druids can assume a variety of wildshape forms with Improved Grab. Improved Grab is arguably superior to Improved Grapple, and at least very similar (though neither does everything the other does). OTOH, while Stunning Fist might be useful, it is used with an unarmed strike, not a natural weapon, so might not be quite as awesome as it could be for a wildshaped druid.
catharz
11-23-05, 09:03 PM OTOH, while Stunning Fist might be useful, it is used with an unarmed strike, not a natural weapon, so might not be quite as awesome as it could be for a wildshaped druid.

Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes?
Surreal
11-23-05, 09:11 PM Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes?

I just had a thought: Can you make your natural attacks primary, then take your unarmed attacks as secondary? If so, how many attacks do you get? (ie: do you still get iteratives with your unarmed attacks?)
X-Codes
11-23-05, 10:04 PM Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes?

Not with flurry mind you... unless you went Shou Disciple 3. Might even want to go Shou Disciple 4 for the 2d6 fists.

Hey, this is getting me thinking about Lycans again...

Feral Afflicted Werebear Lord (Base Creature: Human)
ECL 15/Monk 1/Shou Disciple 4

Scare the children...
Iaimeki
11-24-05, 12:08 AM I just had a thought: Can you make your natural attacks primary, then take your unarmed attacks as secondary? If so, how many attacks do you get? (ie: do you still get iteratives with your unarmed attacks?)

No. Manufactured weapons (which is what unarmed strikes are standing in for at this point) are always primary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DDogwood 11-17-05, 06:05 PM	I was wondering if anyone had any good Druid/Monk builds. I don't know of any Prestige Class or feats specifically designed for this combo, which is too bad because there is some nice potential for synergy there. The Wis to AC bonus would be nice at lower levels (before you can afford Wild armor), and some of the Monk bonus feats would be even better in Wildshape. Prestige Classes that would help are probably Sacred Fist and Nature's Warrior, but I haven't been able to come up with anything more optimal than Druid 8/Monk 2/Sacred Fist 10, or Druid 5/Monk 4/Sacred Fist 1/Master of the North Wind 10 (but I don't like Dragon prestige classes) Any suggestions?
42up 11-17-05, 06:09 PM	the VOP monk 2/druid 18 you miss out on huge elementals though....
rilem 11-17-05, 06:41 PM	Monk2/Druid4/SacredFist4/VerdantLord10 BAB 18, Caster level 17 (I think, can't recall details of VL). Verdant Lord is 3.0, but was never updated, so still technically legal.
AramilWindwalker 11-17-05, 09:30 PM	I like ex monk 2/druid 4/sacred fist 9/lion of talisid(BoED)5 +16 BAB, CL 18(since the text says at each level in sacred fist for CL), saves +16/11/14, full attack at the end of a charge and flurry of blows combo nicely, 4+int skill points all the way, wisdom synergy, minor wildshaping, decent unarmed damage(worship bahamut and get gauntlets of the talon and a monk's belt to max it out if you wish), lots of minor class-based goodies, evasion, etc, I may have to actually try this build soon.... just beware the alignment change between levels 2 and 3 (LN or LG(or LE if you're feisty) to NG), and the "dump" feats required for both PrCs.(combat casting and that companions one) Human or helf-elf to avoid exp penalties, I'd go human to help ease the feat squeeze.
DDogwood 11-18-05, 03:15 PM	I like ex monk 2/druid 4/sacred fist 9/lion of talisid(BoED)5 +16 BAB, CL 18(since the text says at each level in sacred fist for CL I'm not 100% keen on this build, for 3 reasons: - Alignment changes are tricky to work into a build - they are too DM-dependent - When the text and the table disagree, you also run into a potential DM argument. I think most DMs will house-rule that the table overrides the text in this case - You don't get Wild Shape until level 16 (I think?) or large Wild Shape until level 19 - if you're waiting that long, isn't it better to go for a higher CL in order to get more uses of Shapechange? Rilem: Where is Verdant Lord from?
Warlord Griffin 11-18-05, 03:57 PM	Vow of Poverty: Rashemen Human: Monk 1/ Druid 17 Somewhere in the build ASCEND TO SAINTHOOD that should take care of just about all your problems wisdom to ac TWICE is oh so good.
Origin 11-18-05, 04:13 PM	Vow of Poverty: Rashemen Human: Monk 1/ Druid 17 Somewhere in the build ASCEND TO SAINTHOOD that should take care of just about all your problems wisdom to ac TWICE is oh so good. They don't stack. You only get AC to once. A good druid/monk build is using the variant druid, and you can find it at http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm Druid The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter. Gain Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger). Lose Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions). Or you could of course just use a Monk's Belt, but it's not as cool. By the way, that is a completely legal variant, not houseruled. I'm not sure where it's found though.
Warlord Griffin 11-18-05, 04:25 PM	"They don't stack. You only get AC to once." Where pray tell does it say that the bonus from sainthood and the bonus from monk levels do not stack?
Origin 11-18-05, 04:28 PM	Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack? Logically, I don't think it makes much sense to get the same bonus for essentially the same training. Of course, it's probably one of those things that you'll never find the answer for, excluding an eventual Errata or FAQ. I'd say it's up to the DM, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
fnord 11-18-05, 05:00 PM	Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack? How 'bout the bit where a Monk's AC bonus is an unnamed bonus? And the bit where unnamed bonuses stack with everything except themselves?
UMiskatonic 11-18-05, 05:22 PM	The two most obvious are: Monk 1/Druid 19 Monk 2/Druid 4/Sacred Fist 8/XXX 6 If you are going with the first, you are primarily a caster with better wildshape options, +2 to all saves, etc. With the second, I'd invest heavily in the wild shape feats, like Eagle's Wings, and Pounce and so forth. They add a lot of combat oomph, and can be used to circumvent some of the problems with VoP. Flight is easy to fix, and a level of Seeker of the Misty Isle gets you travel domain. Incorporeal creatures are still a pain, but for the ones that are undead, there's Master of Radiance, and the sun spells.
Taliesin52 11-21-05, 09:48 PM	Right now I'm playing a Mnk1/Dru5/Master of many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 1/ Warshaper 3 Lose out on a LOT of spells. However, the ability to wild shape into big gianty forms (Cave Troll, War Troll, any giant) more than makes up for it. At the moment, I go for Cave Troll, and weild a quarterstaff with spikes cast upon it, and flurry frequently. The wisdom to AC along with dex, and a high natural armor bonus, plus some spells keeps your AC pretty high.
rilem 11-21-05, 10:12 PM	Well, where, pray tell, does it say they do stack? If I recall correctly, the Saint's bonus is a Insight bonus; the Monk's is unnamed. Different sources, different names. Per rules, they stack. This has been established for a long time — go back to the earliest discussions of the duelist & bladesinger's AC bonuses (one of which is unnamed, the other is a dodge bonus). Those stack, too. This sort of thing can be abused — all those sad attempts to get super-high saves by mixing Divine Grace from Blackguard and Paladin of Slaughter, etc. The Saint/Monk thing is nowhere near that cheesy (though I'll admit the Saint itself is way overpowered at +2 LA.)
jameswilliamogle 11-21-05, 11:04 PM	Druidic Avenger 1 (1), Monk (Cobra Strike Variant) 7 (2-5, 11-13), Shou Disciple 5 (6-10), Shiba Protector 1 (14), Blade Dancer 6 (15-20), w/ Snow Tiger Berserker at 1st level
catharz 11-22-05, 12:42 PM	If you can get around the XP penalty, Halfling Monk 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 8.
nittanytbone 11-22-05, 02:02 PM	I've got a few questions to add on here. First, when would you take the two monk levels, assuming you were starting from first level? There doesn't seem to be a good reason to front-load them (same SP and HP as druid), and at first level having the free wolf animal companion seems better than being a monk. I'm thinking somewhere around after 5 to 7 druid levels is optimal, as most of the monk features you want aren't terribly useful until you can wildshape. Next, how many levels would you take? One or two? One means less disruption in casting progression... Two gets you optimal saves & evasion. Is it worth it to lose even more casting power? Finally, which bonus feats would you go for? Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows: Taking combat reflexes at 2nd level seems like a no brainer unless your DM lets you deflect projectiles while wildshaped. Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist: This is tougher. Stunning fist is a superior feat that most druids could never get any other way, and with the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple is just one feat away. But druids get so few feats, you'd probably have to wait until 9th level to get IG and you might be passing up something better (item creation perhaps?). Any thoughts? Thanks.
X-Codes 11-22-05, 09:01 PM	If you can get around the XP penalty, Halfling Monk 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 8. No dice. Literally. Daggerspell Shaper requires 1d6 Sneak Attack or Skirmish. Ninja 1/Druid 9/Daggerspell Shaper 10 gives 18th level casting with lots of wildshape options. If you want to focus more on wildshaping than spellcasting then Ninja 1/Druid 5/Daggerspell Shaper 10 with 4 levels of Warshaper or Nature's Warrior to fill out the rest.
catharz 11-22-05, 09:13 PM	No dice. Literally. Daggerspell Shaper requires 1d6 Sneak Attack or Skirmish. Which is why I said Halfling Monk :rolleyes:
X-Codes 11-22-05, 09:38 PM	Which is why I said Halfling Monk :rolleyes: Ah, forgot about that. Have to be a halfling, though. =/ Ninja/Druid is much more accessible, and I would still reccomend it over Halfling Monk.
catharz 11-22-05, 09:52 PM	Ah, forgot about that. Have to be a halfling, though. =/ Ninja/Druid is much more accessible, and I would still reccomend it over Halfling Monk. Ya, Ninja helps with the XP penalty. Unfortunately, Ninja also lacks the vital Improved Unarmed Strike and that wonderful Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple. And the monk gets great skill points.
Iaimeki 11-23-05, 07:05 PM	Druids get four categories of class features: animal companion, wild shape, casting, and everything else. I personally like casting and wild shape the most, but the trick is that the casting isn't all that useful without an animal companion or wild shape. Thus, druid/monk has trouble working because it's hard to advance even two of their class features and monk abilities too. I've never liked monk/druid/sacred fist for that reason, because druid casting is weak without wild shape or an animal companion, and sacred fist only advances casting and monk abilities. The most viable builds tend to splash one or two levels of monk, then take druid and/or druid PrCs the rest of the way. For my money, the most druidish/monkish build I've been able to come up with uses the divine variant on the enlightened fist (read the class's adaptation section in CA) and master of the north wind (DrM #313). Monk 1/Druid 1-5/Enlightened Fist 1/Master of the North Wind 1-10/Enlightened Fist 2-4 You get 15th level monk AC, movement, and unarmed damage, wild shape as a 10th-level druid, the ability to cast touch spells as part of a full attack, and casting as a 16th-level druid. There are several variations, the simplest and best of which is probably replacing enlightened fist 3-4 with druid 6-7, to get plant wild shape and 9th-level spells. I've often tried to figure out how to do a druid/monk based on using a quarterstaff, but unfortunately there aren't really any PrCs for that: master of the north wind is better at wild shape, if you're going to useit, and sacred fists are forbidden from using weapons.
Tony Vargas 11-23-05, 08:11 PM	Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist: This is tougher. Stunning fist is a superior feat that most druids could never get any other way, and with the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Imp Grapple is just one feat away. Any thoughts? Thanks. Druids can assume a variety of wildshape forms with Improved Grab. Improved Grab is arguably superior to Improved Grapple, and at least very similar (though neither does everything the other does). OTOH, while Stunning Fist might be useful, it is used with an unarmed strike, not a natural weapon, so might not be quite as awesome as it could be for a wildshaped druid.
catharz 11-23-05, 09:03 PM	OTOH, while Stunning Fist might be useful, it is used with an unarmed strike, not a natural weapon, so might not be quite as awesome as it could be for a wildshaped druid. Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes?
Surreal 11-23-05, 09:11 PM	Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes? I just had a thought: Can you make your natural attacks primary, then take your unarmed attacks as secondary? If so, how many attacks do you get? (ie: do you still get iteratives with your unarmed attacks?)
X-Codes 11-23-05, 10:04 PM	Um, what about the part where monk/druids can full attack with all natural weapons as secondary, and make iterative unarmed strikes? Not with flurry mind you... unless you went Shou Disciple 3. Might even want to go Shou Disciple 4 for the 2d6 fists. Hey, this is getting me thinking about Lycans again... Feral Afflicted Werebear Lord (Base Creature: Human) ECL 15/Monk 1/Shou Disciple 4 Scare the children...
Iaimeki 11-24-05, 12:08 AM	I just had a thought: Can you make your natural attacks primary, then take your unarmed attacks as secondary? If so, how many attacks do you get? (ie: do you still get iteratives with your unarmed attacks?) No. Manufactured weapons (which is what unarmed strikes are standing in for at this point) are always primary.