Any good guides to Polymorph out there? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any good guides to Polymorph out there? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Joseph_Silver
08-26-06, 02:25 PM I found a guide to Polymorph in the forums, but it was kind of useless. People kept listing illegal creatures, e.g. listing outsiders (illegal for the core races), creatures more than one size category away from medium, etc. The latter is the most common mistake; people keep forgetting that you can only polymorph the target to within one size category.

Are there any good guides to Polymorph out there? One filled with legal Polymorph forms? One that doesn't require you to play as a large character or as an outsider?

Note to self: If you can't find a good guide to Polymorph, make one yourself.
PhaedrusXY
08-26-06, 02:27 PM I haven't kept up with all the erratas to polymorph recently, but the original 3.5 version of Polymorph doesn't limit you to one size larger than your original form. And the outsider forms are in there specifically for people who play outsiders to access them. So there is nothing "illegal" about the Polymorph thread. And like you said, if you don't like it, make another one. It is not trivial keeping one of those threads updated.
adecoy95
08-26-06, 02:29 PM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a

these links provide alot of detailed information

and mind bending amounts of boggle!
Lilt
08-26-06, 02:51 PM @PhaedrusXY: Isn't Polymorph limited to one size category change because it's based on alter self.

@Joseph_Silver: I'm guessing you're talking about the 3.5 polymorph thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846)?

The reason that some huge creatures are listed is that some people may play creatures with a large base size (Half-Ogre, Centaur, Anthromorphic Baleen Whale, Anthromorphic Giant Squid, and Marrusault are the ones I've seen) which can change into them.

The reason that outsiders are listed is because some people play outsider-typed races. Technically the Aasimar and Tiefling are core races too, and they're outsiders.

The thread is there to point-out the most powerful forms available, or other forms of note. It should also be useful to everyone, within reason. Why should your polymorph guide be useless to outsiders by not telling them what really good forms are available to them? There's no real problem in pointing-out powerful outsider forms also, as long as people are careful to know their own limitations.

Basically, knowing your limitations (non-outsider and small to large size) and looking through the lists there is going to be faster for picking-out a good form than looking through all of your books. I mean, here's a perfectly legal, and powerful, form for most 13th level characters:
Firbolg, Giant, large, facing 5ft, reach 10ft, , str 36, dex 13, con 23, NA +12, other benefits: rock throwing, trample, source: mm2, page 102
PhaedrusXY
08-26-06, 03:09 PM @PhaedrusXY: Isn't Polymorph limited to one size category change because it's based on alter self.Not according to the Rules of the Game article series on Polymorph, which adecoy95 kindly provided links for. I think the FAQ says it isn't, also. From just reading the spell descriptions, I agree that it seems like it might be, but evidently the people at WotC don't agree.
Lilt
08-26-06, 03:25 PM Not according to the Rules of the Game article series on Polymorph, which adecoy95 kindly provided links for. I think the FAQ says it isn't, also. From just reading the spell descriptions, I agree that it seems like it might be, but evidently the people at WotC don't agree.Hmm... The rules of the game article is a bit vague, but you're right about the FAQ entry:
Alter self (Player’s Handbook, page 197), the base spell in
the polymorph chain, says that the new form must be within
one size category of your normal size. Is the same true of
other spells in the chain?
Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they
could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such
as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any
size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its
size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way
of saying the same thing.
PhaedrusXY
08-26-06, 04:43 PM Hmm... The rules of the game article is a bit vague, but you're right about the FAQ entry:The RotG article isn't vague at all. It may not be "right", but it certainly isn't "vague". :P The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal.
The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll.
Lilt
08-26-06, 04:50 PM The RotG article isn't vague at all. It may not be "right", but it certainly isn't "vague". :PBy vague I meant that it's not made explicitly clear as to wether or not the size restriction from Alter Self is lifted.
PhaedrusXY
08-26-06, 05:47 PM By vague I meant that it's not made explicitly clear as to wether or not the size restriction from Alter Self is lifted.See the bolded section of my previous post. It explicitly states in the RotG article that you can assume any size from Fine to Collossal with Polymorph.

Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying. That still doesn't say anything about whether what size you started as matters, explicitly, does it? Meh, between that statement and the FAQ, I think it is clear that at least the "Sage" and whoever writes the FAQ is saying that size restrictions no longer apply with 3.5 polymorph. I remember this was all discussed some time ago, and that was the conclusion.
Neonsamurai
08-27-06, 06:36 PM Outsiders are also listed, because you can aquire the outsider type through various PrC and templates, and your improved (exalted) familiar might also be an outsider. Furthermore you might want to polymorph your outsider ally which you got from the planar ally or planar binding branch of spells.
Lilt
08-28-06, 08:27 AM Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying. That still doesn't say anything about whether what size you started as matters, explicitly, does it? Meh, between that statement and the FAQ, I think it is clear that at least the "Sage" and whoever writes the FAQ is saying that size restrictions no longer apply with 3.5 polymorph. I remember this was all discussed some time ago, and that was the conclusion.Yes, given the FAQ entry I'm certainly convinced. I just hadn't read that FAQ entry before.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Joseph_Silver 08-26-06, 02:25 PM	I found a guide to Polymorph in the forums, but it was kind of useless. People kept listing illegal creatures, e.g. listing outsiders (illegal for the core races), creatures more than one size category away from medium, etc. The latter is the most common mistake; people keep forgetting that you can only polymorph the target to within one size category. Are there any good guides to Polymorph out there? One filled with legal Polymorph forms? One that doesn't require you to play as a large character or as an outsider? Note to self: If you can't find a good guide to Polymorph, make one yourself.
PhaedrusXY 08-26-06, 02:27 PM	I haven't kept up with all the erratas to polymorph recently, but the original 3.5 version of Polymorph doesn't limit you to one size larger than your original form. And the outsider forms are in there specifically for people who play outsiders to access them. So there is nothing "illegal" about the Polymorph thread. And like you said, if you don't like it, make another one. It is not trivial keeping one of those threads updated.
adecoy95 08-26-06, 02:29 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a these links provide alot of detailed information and mind bending amounts of boggle!
Lilt 08-26-06, 02:51 PM	@PhaedrusXY: Isn't Polymorph limited to one size category change because it's based on alter self. @Joseph_Silver: I'm guessing you're talking about the 3.5 polymorph thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846)? The reason that some huge creatures are listed is that some people may play creatures with a large base size (Half-Ogre, Centaur, Anthromorphic Baleen Whale, Anthromorphic Giant Squid, and Marrusault are the ones I've seen) which can change into them. The reason that outsiders are listed is because some people play outsider-typed races. Technically the Aasimar and Tiefling are core races too, and they're outsiders. The thread is there to point-out the most powerful forms available, or other forms of note. It should also be useful to everyone, within reason. Why should your polymorph guide be useless to outsiders by not telling them what really good forms are available to them? There's no real problem in pointing-out powerful outsider forms also, as long as people are careful to know their own limitations. Basically, knowing your limitations (non-outsider and small to large size) and looking through the lists there is going to be faster for picking-out a good form than looking through all of your books. I mean, here's a perfectly legal, and powerful, form for most 13th level characters: Firbolg, Giant, large, facing 5ft, reach 10ft, , str 36, dex 13, con 23, NA +12, other benefits: rock throwing, trample, source: mm2, page 102
PhaedrusXY 08-26-06, 03:09 PM	@PhaedrusXY: Isn't Polymorph limited to one size category change because it's based on alter self.Not according to the Rules of the Game article series on Polymorph, which adecoy95 kindly provided links for. I think the FAQ says it isn't, also. From just reading the spell descriptions, I agree that it seems like it might be, but evidently the people at WotC don't agree.
Lilt 08-26-06, 03:25 PM	Not according to the Rules of the Game article series on Polymorph, which adecoy95 kindly provided links for. I think the FAQ says it isn't, also. From just reading the spell descriptions, I agree that it seems like it might be, but evidently the people at WotC don't agree.Hmm... The rules of the game article is a bit vague, but you're right about the FAQ entry: Alter self (Player’s Handbook, page 197), the base spell in the polymorph chain, says that the new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Is the same true of other spells in the chain? Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way of saying the same thing.
PhaedrusXY 08-26-06, 04:43 PM	Hmm... The rules of the game article is a bit vague, but you're right about the FAQ entry:The RotG article isn't vague at all. It may not be "right", but it certainly isn't "vague". :P The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal. The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll.
Lilt 08-26-06, 04:50 PM	The RotG article isn't vague at all. It may not be "right", but it certainly isn't "vague". :PBy vague I meant that it's not made explicitly clear as to wether or not the size restriction from Alter Self is lifted.
PhaedrusXY 08-26-06, 05:47 PM	By vague I meant that it's not made explicitly clear as to wether or not the size restriction from Alter Self is lifted.See the bolded section of my previous post. It explicitly states in the RotG article that you can assume any size from Fine to Collossal with Polymorph. Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying. That still doesn't say anything about whether what size you started as matters, explicitly, does it? Meh, between that statement and the FAQ, I think it is clear that at least the "Sage" and whoever writes the FAQ is saying that size restrictions no longer apply with 3.5 polymorph. I remember this was all discussed some time ago, and that was the conclusion.
Neonsamurai 08-27-06, 06:36 PM	Outsiders are also listed, because you can aquire the outsider type through various PrC and templates, and your improved (exalted) familiar might also be an outsider. Furthermore you might want to polymorph your outsider ally which you got from the planar ally or planar binding branch of spells.
Lilt 08-28-06, 08:27 AM	Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying. That still doesn't say anything about whether what size you started as matters, explicitly, does it? Meh, between that statement and the FAQ, I think it is clear that at least the "Sage" and whoever writes the FAQ is saying that size restrictions no longer apply with 3.5 polymorph. I remember this was all discussed some time ago, and that was the conclusion.Yes, given the FAQ entry I'm certainly convinced. I just hadn't read that FAQ entry before.