Any suggestions on this build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any suggestions on this build? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ivarrius
03-11-05, 05:48 PM Sun Elf - 32 Point Buy

Wiz10/IofSV7/Archmage3

Feat/Level:
Arcane Manipulation/1st
Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd
Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th(wiz5 bonus feat)
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th
Improved Initiative/9th
Spell Focus: Illusion/12th
Improved Counterspell/15th
Reactive Counterspell/17th(wiz10 bonus feat)
Quicken Spell/18th

Archmage High Arcana - Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Either Spell power +1 or Mastery of Shaping.

I realize that for this build, most of your feats are taken up simply qualifying, but maybe you have some info to add?
Squirrelloid
03-11-05, 09:56 PM Sun Elf - 32 Point Buy

Wiz10/IofSV7/Archmage3

Feat/Level:
Arcane Manipulation/1st
Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd
Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th
Improved Initiative/9th
Spell Focus: Illusion/12th
Improved Counterspell/15th
Reactive Counterspell/17th
Quicken Spell/18th

Archmage High Arcana - Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Either Spell power +1 or Mastery of Shaping.

I realize that for this build, most of your feats are taken up simply qualifying, but maybe you have some info to add?

wiz10? Surely there is something more productive you can be doing. Like Incantatrix5, which nets you a metamagic feat (at the cost of taking Iron Will earlier, but meh). Greater Spell Focus probably isn't worth it anyway.

Arcane Manipulation? Not familiar with that one.

And why aren't you human anyway? Feats are good for you. (i have no idea what Sun Elf does offhand...).
Ivarrius
03-11-05, 10:56 PM Greater Spell Focus is worth it - it is a pre-req for IotSV.

Arcane Manipulation is from LEoF - it allows you to prepare a higher level spell broken down into its spell levels, giving you more spells per day at the cost of higher level spells, which lasts until you prepare spells once more.
ex. 5th lvl spell --> 3rd lvl spell and 2nd level spell.

Sun Elf gives you +2 to int, and I was hoping to play an elven subrace.
Iaimeki
03-12-05, 11:39 AM I'm really confused by your feat order. You have SF (abjuration) at 5th, but that's not a feat on the list of bonus feats wizards can select (item creation, metamagic, or Spell Mastery). Meanwhile, you don't have any feat at 10th level, but you have Reactive Counterspell at 17th level. Where is that feat slot coming from?

In more general advice, I don't think counterspelling is that good, and by my reading, you have two more feats than you "should" anyways. I'd probably drop it. Also, if you're going for battle field control, you should definitely take mastery of shaping. I also like spell power and arcane reach as good general archmage abilities.
Ivarrius
03-12-05, 02:18 PM I'm really confused by your feat order. You have SF (abjuration) at 5th, but that's not a feat on the list of bonus feats wizards can select (item creation, metamagic, or Spell Mastery). Meanwhile, you don't have any feat at 10th level, but you have Reactive Counterspell at 17th level. Where is that feat slot coming from?

The Spell Focus: Abjuration is a mistake, I assumed spell focus feats were on wizard bonus feat list. As for No feat at tenth level, thats the level I would be going into IotSV, and 17th level would be my wiz10, gaining a bonus feat.

And no, I don't have any 'extra' feats. 7 for character levels and 2 for wizard bonus. That makes 9.

But at the very least, thank you for the advice on counterspelling, though i am not sure I agree. Mastery of Shaping is a very good ability and mixed with mastery of elements could make for a versatile blaster, should I need to play that role.
Tempest Stormwind
03-12-05, 02:35 PM By the time you enter Archmage, blasting will not be a viable tactic for you. Monster HP and saves are going to be too high for it to count, and you'll be preferring save-or-dies. Stick to Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Counterspelling, and Spell Power. I personally think counterspelling is underrated, and I love it myself on the rare occasions I get to play the party mage (9/10 I'm stuck as the damn rogue again... great niche, but I'm getting sick of it).

I'd swap 5 wizard levels for something else, including possibly 2 extra Archmage levels (you can figure out which High Arcana you want). Incantrix is natural, but I try to avoid that class -- you know, in the same way I try to avoid a DM-administered sack beating. Geometer is an interesting class for 2 or 3 levels to get extra options as a wizard without committing to a flavor archetype beyond "the mage who works with advanced magic" (plus, take a close look at the text. Remember the general rule "If in doubt, ignore the chart"? According to the text, Geometer 3 has Sigilsight AND Pass Sigil. I'm positive it's a typo, but RAW...). I also think it works well with abjurer flavor, particularily with the sun elf personality.

Finally, there's a few interesting abjurer options in Unearthed Arcana that might interest you and your DM. Look under Specialist Wizard Variants.

By the way, doesn't Arcane Manipulation remind everyone of Arcana Unearthed? You know, where the exact same ability is usable on-the-fly by other casters as a class ability, to try to make Vancian spellcasting more playable? By and large, I don't like Arcana Unearthed, but I liked the spell slot weaving.
Iaimeki
03-12-05, 04:49 PM I'm 99% sure that the idea for Arcane Manipulation was stolen from Arcana Unearthed.

Counterspelling works reasonably well at low levels, but unfortunately it starts to suffer at higher ones. It's always vulnerable to the fact that you have to ready an action: when the enemy caster sees that you didn't cast, they can draw the obvious conclusion and do something else, like cast from a spell-trigger item. The higher amounts of money available at high levels to buy/craft spell-trigger items is a real problem for counterspelling: if an enemy spellcaster wants to make sure you can't counter, they can just craft an appropriate item and cast from it. If you rely on Reactive Counterspell, you can still get screwed out of actions: you lose your whole turn, so if your opponent casts a spell, you counter with Reactive, and then your opponent Quickens a spell, they can gain an advantage in total spells/turn, and if they're smart, that's extremely dangerous (and that's without shapechanged chronotryn/choker abuse). Finally, there are ways to turn spells into spell-like abilities (and dweomerkeeper can even supernaturalize them), which also means they can't be countered. Basically, counterspelling is a reasonable tactic at lower levels, but by the time you get an Improved Initiative/Improved Counterspell/Reactive Counterspell/mastery of counterspelling machine going, I suspect that it's outlived its lifespan. Now, if you know that your DM isn't going to try to work around getting counterspelled, that's fine--but from a straight min-max perspective, counterspelling won't work.

Blasting is, indeed, a suboptimal tactic at high levels. Mastery of elements is rarely worth the cost, IMO, unless you have something specific combination in mind.

As for feats: you can't pick up Reactive Counterspell with a wizard bonus feat, either, since it's a general feat. You can use a wizard feat to get Quicken Spell, but by my count that still leaves you one feat over (with a wizard bonus feat to sink into item creation or metamagic, but not one of the feats you want).

I also agree that wizard 10 probably isn't worth it. Geometer is a reasonable dip for a low-level wizard without better things to do, and more archmage is almost never wasted.

General advice on presentation: if you're taking levels in a non-clumped order to get feats at certain times, tell us that.
castlemike
03-12-05, 06:15 PM I suggest using about 5 of those wizard levels and taking a couple levels in a PRC.

Consider Blood Magus it has requirements of concentration 4 and dying (Deaths Door Negative HP might be enough in your campaign) and now you can take 4 levels in Blood Magus leaving you 5 more levels of PRC without losing anything.

MotAO 1 gives you guild membership and spell pool access 1 nice in a pinch particularly if you normally keep spell slots open better than waiting 15 minutes. (Some DMs will let you forfeit a known spell in exchange). 2 levels gives you a free meta feat, 4 levels grants spell pool 2 access.

Divine Oracle take 2 levels and get "Divine Evasion" plus an extra Oracle Domain Spell a level if you pay for it which is pretty sweet.

Blood Magus 1 -4 levels grants interesting abilities Higher Spell DC, Component substitution, Variant Limited Scribe Scroll Feat, Variant Limited Potion Making Feat and Death Knell Ability.

2 levels of Loremaster grants you Bardic Lore (depends on the campaign how useful that would be but usually pretty useful with a High Int Mod) and a Feat.

Sacred Exorcist 3 - 5 levels is pretty nice.

Hope that helps.
pentagonal_penguin
03-12-05, 08:36 PM I suggest something like MotAO4/Loremaster1 for levels 6-10. Loremaster 1 or 3 is always good for a bonus feat or 2, assuming a +7 int mod (pretty likely by this level)
Tempest Stormwind
03-12-05, 08:44 PM I suggest something like MotAO4/Loremaster1 for levels 6-10. Loremaster 1 or 3 is always good for a bonus feat or 2, assuming a +7 int mod (pretty likely by this level)
You can't pick the same Loremaster Secret twice, so only one feat. Sorry.
Ivarrius
03-12-05, 10:49 PM Good points guys, thanks. Maybe Wiz 10 is suboptimal: I will look into some of those PrC's listed above. And agreed on the Mastery of Elements - there ARE better abilities.

The abjurer Variants and MotAO are looking like ideal matches. No problem fitting in MotAO, but a variant might take some convincing.

Iameki - show me how you calculate your feats, and read where I calculated mine, Tell me exactly how I am over. I don't like cheating so i dont want to be accused of it by my dm or anyone.
pentagonal_penguin
03-12-05, 11:19 PM You can't pick the same Loremaster Secret twice, so only one feat. Sorry.

You're right. That's annoying, I need to rethink the wizard I'm playing now. (He was planning to go into Loremaster)
Iaimeki
03-12-05, 11:43 PM Arcane Manipulation/1st
Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd
Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th
Improved Initiative/9th
Spell Focus: Illusion/12th
Improved Counterspell/15th
Reactive Counterspell/17th

This is your original list (minus Quicken Spell) . . . that's 8 feats that aren't wizard feats, so far as I know. Sun Elves get 7 (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th). That's what I mean when I say you're one over.
pentagonal_penguin
03-13-05, 03:28 AM Be careful with feats if you decide to go Mage of the Arcane Order - it needs cooperative spell + any other metamagic.
Ivarrius
03-13-05, 05:06 AM Arcane Manipulation/1st
Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd
Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th
Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th
Improved Initiative/9th
Spell Focus: Illusion/12th
Improved Counterspell/15th
Reactive Counterspell/17th

This is your original list (minus Quicken Spell) . . . that's 8 feats that aren't wizard feats, so far as I know. Sun Elves get 7 (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th). That's what I mean when I say you're one over.

Right, and I already stated I made a mistake on feats as I misunderstood which ones qualified as wizard bonus feats, as well explaining that the feat at level 17 was wizard bonus 10. Therefore, the number of feats is correct, their placement is wrong.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ivarrius 03-11-05, 05:48 PM	Sun Elf - 32 Point Buy Wiz10/IofSV7/Archmage3 Feat/Level: Arcane Manipulation/1st Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th(wiz5 bonus feat) Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th Improved Initiative/9th Spell Focus: Illusion/12th Improved Counterspell/15th Reactive Counterspell/17th(wiz10 bonus feat) Quicken Spell/18th Archmage High Arcana - Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Either Spell power +1 or Mastery of Shaping. I realize that for this build, most of your feats are taken up simply qualifying, but maybe you have some info to add?
Squirrelloid 03-11-05, 09:56 PM	Sun Elf - 32 Point Buy Wiz10/IofSV7/Archmage3 Feat/Level: Arcane Manipulation/1st Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th Improved Initiative/9th Spell Focus: Illusion/12th Improved Counterspell/15th Reactive Counterspell/17th Quicken Spell/18th Archmage High Arcana - Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Elements, Either Spell power +1 or Mastery of Shaping. I realize that for this build, most of your feats are taken up simply qualifying, but maybe you have some info to add? wiz10? Surely there is something more productive you can be doing. Like Incantatrix5, which nets you a metamagic feat (at the cost of taking Iron Will earlier, but meh). Greater Spell Focus probably isn't worth it anyway. Arcane Manipulation? Not familiar with that one. And why aren't you human anyway? Feats are good for you. (i have no idea what Sun Elf does offhand...).
Ivarrius 03-11-05, 10:56 PM	Greater Spell Focus is worth it - it is a pre-req for IotSV. Arcane Manipulation is from LEoF - it allows you to prepare a higher level spell broken down into its spell levels, giving you more spells per day at the cost of higher level spells, which lasts until you prepare spells once more. ex. 5th lvl spell --> 3rd lvl spell and 2nd level spell. Sun Elf gives you +2 to int, and I was hoping to play an elven subrace.
Iaimeki 03-12-05, 11:39 AM	I'm really confused by your feat order. You have SF (abjuration) at 5th, but that's not a feat on the list of bonus feats wizards can select (item creation, metamagic, or Spell Mastery). Meanwhile, you don't have any feat at 10th level, but you have Reactive Counterspell at 17th level. Where is that feat slot coming from? In more general advice, I don't think counterspelling is that good, and by my reading, you have two more feats than you "should" anyways. I'd probably drop it. Also, if you're going for battle field control, you should definitely take mastery of shaping. I also like spell power and arcane reach as good general archmage abilities.
Ivarrius 03-12-05, 02:18 PM	I'm really confused by your feat order. You have SF (abjuration) at 5th, but that's not a feat on the list of bonus feats wizards can select (item creation, metamagic, or Spell Mastery). Meanwhile, you don't have any feat at 10th level, but you have Reactive Counterspell at 17th level. Where is that feat slot coming from? The Spell Focus: Abjuration is a mistake, I assumed spell focus feats were on wizard bonus feat list. As for No feat at tenth level, thats the level I would be going into IotSV, and 17th level would be my wiz10, gaining a bonus feat. And no, I don't have any 'extra' feats. 7 for character levels and 2 for wizard bonus. That makes 9. But at the very least, thank you for the advice on counterspelling, though i am not sure I agree. Mastery of Shaping is a very good ability and mixed with mastery of elements could make for a versatile blaster, should I need to play that role.
Tempest Stormwind 03-12-05, 02:35 PM	By the time you enter Archmage, blasting will not be a viable tactic for you. Monster HP and saves are going to be too high for it to count, and you'll be preferring save-or-dies. Stick to Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Counterspelling, and Spell Power. I personally think counterspelling is underrated, and I love it myself on the rare occasions I get to play the party mage (9/10 I'm stuck as the damn rogue again... great niche, but I'm getting sick of it). I'd swap 5 wizard levels for something else, including possibly 2 extra Archmage levels (you can figure out which High Arcana you want). Incantrix is natural, but I try to avoid that class -- you know, in the same way I try to avoid a DM-administered sack beating. Geometer is an interesting class for 2 or 3 levels to get extra options as a wizard without committing to a flavor archetype beyond "the mage who works with advanced magic" (plus, take a close look at the text. Remember the general rule "If in doubt, ignore the chart"? According to the text, Geometer 3 has Sigilsight AND Pass Sigil. I'm positive it's a typo, but RAW...). I also think it works well with abjurer flavor, particularily with the sun elf personality. Finally, there's a few interesting abjurer options in Unearthed Arcana that might interest you and your DM. Look under Specialist Wizard Variants. By the way, doesn't Arcane Manipulation remind everyone of Arcana Unearthed? You know, where the exact same ability is usable on-the-fly by other casters as a class ability, to try to make Vancian spellcasting more playable? By and large, I don't like Arcana Unearthed, but I liked the spell slot weaving.
Iaimeki 03-12-05, 04:49 PM	I'm 99% sure that the idea for Arcane Manipulation was stolen from Arcana Unearthed. Counterspelling works reasonably well at low levels, but unfortunately it starts to suffer at higher ones. It's always vulnerable to the fact that you have to ready an action: when the enemy caster sees that you didn't cast, they can draw the obvious conclusion and do something else, like cast from a spell-trigger item. The higher amounts of money available at high levels to buy/craft spell-trigger items is a real problem for counterspelling: if an enemy spellcaster wants to make sure you can't counter, they can just craft an appropriate item and cast from it. If you rely on Reactive Counterspell, you can still get screwed out of actions: you lose your whole turn, so if your opponent casts a spell, you counter with Reactive, and then your opponent Quickens a spell, they can gain an advantage in total spells/turn, and if they're smart, that's extremely dangerous (and that's without shapechanged chronotryn/choker abuse). Finally, there are ways to turn spells into spell-like abilities (and dweomerkeeper can even supernaturalize them), which also means they can't be countered. Basically, counterspelling is a reasonable tactic at lower levels, but by the time you get an Improved Initiative/Improved Counterspell/Reactive Counterspell/mastery of counterspelling machine going, I suspect that it's outlived its lifespan. Now, if you know that your DM isn't going to try to work around getting counterspelled, that's fine--but from a straight min-max perspective, counterspelling won't work. Blasting is, indeed, a suboptimal tactic at high levels. Mastery of elements is rarely worth the cost, IMO, unless you have something specific combination in mind. As for feats: you can't pick up Reactive Counterspell with a wizard bonus feat, either, since it's a general feat. You can use a wizard feat to get Quicken Spell, but by my count that still leaves you one feat over (with a wizard bonus feat to sink into item creation or metamagic, but not one of the feats you want). I also agree that wizard 10 probably isn't worth it. Geometer is a reasonable dip for a low-level wizard without better things to do, and more archmage is almost never wasted. General advice on presentation: if you're taking levels in a non-clumped order to get feats at certain times, tell us that.
castlemike 03-12-05, 06:15 PM	I suggest using about 5 of those wizard levels and taking a couple levels in a PRC. Consider Blood Magus it has requirements of concentration 4 and dying (Deaths Door Negative HP might be enough in your campaign) and now you can take 4 levels in Blood Magus leaving you 5 more levels of PRC without losing anything. MotAO 1 gives you guild membership and spell pool access 1 nice in a pinch particularly if you normally keep spell slots open better than waiting 15 minutes. (Some DMs will let you forfeit a known spell in exchange). 2 levels gives you a free meta feat, 4 levels grants spell pool 2 access. Divine Oracle take 2 levels and get "Divine Evasion" plus an extra Oracle Domain Spell a level if you pay for it which is pretty sweet. Blood Magus 1 -4 levels grants interesting abilities Higher Spell DC, Component substitution, Variant Limited Scribe Scroll Feat, Variant Limited Potion Making Feat and Death Knell Ability. 2 levels of Loremaster grants you Bardic Lore (depends on the campaign how useful that would be but usually pretty useful with a High Int Mod) and a Feat. Sacred Exorcist 3 - 5 levels is pretty nice. Hope that helps.
pentagonal_penguin 03-12-05, 08:36 PM	I suggest something like MotAO4/Loremaster1 for levels 6-10. Loremaster 1 or 3 is always good for a bonus feat or 2, assuming a +7 int mod (pretty likely by this level)
Tempest Stormwind 03-12-05, 08:44 PM	I suggest something like MotAO4/Loremaster1 for levels 6-10. Loremaster 1 or 3 is always good for a bonus feat or 2, assuming a +7 int mod (pretty likely by this level) You can't pick the same Loremaster Secret twice, so only one feat. Sorry.
Ivarrius 03-12-05, 10:49 PM	Good points guys, thanks. Maybe Wiz 10 is suboptimal: I will look into some of those PrC's listed above. And agreed on the Mastery of Elements - there ARE better abilities. The abjurer Variants and MotAO are looking like ideal matches. No problem fitting in MotAO, but a variant might take some convincing. Iameki - show me how you calculate your feats, and read where I calculated mine, Tell me exactly how I am over. I don't like cheating so i dont want to be accused of it by my dm or anyone.
pentagonal_penguin 03-12-05, 11:19 PM	You can't pick the same Loremaster Secret twice, so only one feat. Sorry. You're right. That's annoying, I need to rethink the wizard I'm playing now. (He was planning to go into Loremaster)
Iaimeki 03-12-05, 11:43 PM	Arcane Manipulation/1st Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th Improved Initiative/9th Spell Focus: Illusion/12th Improved Counterspell/15th Reactive Counterspell/17th This is your original list (minus Quicken Spell) . . . that's 8 feats that aren't wizard feats, so far as I know. Sun Elves get 7 (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th). That's what I mean when I say you're one over.
pentagonal_penguin 03-13-05, 03:28 AM	Be careful with feats if you decide to go Mage of the Arcane Order - it needs cooperative spell + any other metamagic.
Ivarrius 03-13-05, 05:06 AM	Arcane Manipulation/1st Skill Focus: Spellcraft/3rd Spell Focus: Abjuration/5th Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration/6th Improved Initiative/9th Spell Focus: Illusion/12th Improved Counterspell/15th Reactive Counterspell/17th This is your original list (minus Quicken Spell) . . . that's 8 feats that aren't wizard feats, so far as I know. Sun Elves get 7 (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th). That's what I mean when I say you're one over. Right, and I already stated I made a mistake on feats as I misunderstood which ones qualified as wizard bonus feats, as well explaining that the feat at level 17 was wizard bonus 10. Therefore, the number of feats is correct, their placement is wrong.