Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yellowsnow6967 09-17-05, 02:13 PM	here is my build for a tank: 2 Ranger/ 4 Fighter/ 2 Deepwarden/ 2 Dwarven Defender I am weilding a +3 towershield and a dwarven waraxe, I am wearing +3 Mountian Plate with an Amulet of N.A. (+2), Ring of Prot. (+2) with combat expertise and Improved combat Expertise i take my +10 BaB away from attack to put it into my AC, so when I am in Defensive stance, just tanking against a powerful creature my AC is 63. good? lol I think so. Any other suggestions on what i can put on this Char to make his AC higher?
Tweedledope 09-17-05, 02:22 PM	Now make a Will save for Dominate Monster...there's a Mind Flayer behind you who just "happens" to want to examine your brains. Problem with the Dwarftank builds (and with most tanks) is that they are SO weak in the Will department which allows simple creatures like Mind Flayers to just totally lay waste to them... Then again, you make the save and we have one squishy squidman. -=Tweedledope=-
Yellowsnow6967 09-17-05, 02:28 PM	Yes, but remember I am only 10th lvl, I don't think i would be hanging around anywhere where there would be a mindflayer, and anyone that has Dominate Monster has to be a EL of 16 so yea. and Iron Will is one of my feats.... lol
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 02:30 PM	Yes, but remember I am only 10th lvl, I don't think i would be hanging around anywhere where there would be a mindflayer,Mindflayers are only Challenge Rating 8 (IIRC), and they live underground, like most dwarves...
Caelic 09-17-05, 02:32 PM	Of course, there's always the other drawback of Dwarf builds. "Oh, no! The Dwarven Defender's after us! Quick, everyone...walk briskly!" ;)
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 02:36 PM	Of course, there's always the other drawback of Dwarf builds. "Oh, no! The Dwarven Defender's after us! Quick, everyone...walk briskly!" ;) :heehee Rich Burlew should add a DD character to Order of the Stick. That sounds exactly like a quote from that comic, lol.
Doodle 09-17-05, 03:24 PM	IMO... All high AC builds should take the Goad feat from CV. What's the point in having a high AC if the BBEG is beating on everyone BUT you? Me.
ksbsnowowl 09-17-05, 05:16 PM	There is another rather easy way to add to your AC. Take the Leadership feat and get a cohort with the Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, and Allied Defense (Shining South) feats. Now when your cohort stands next to you and uses the Combat Expertise feat, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to his Expertise use (ie- up to his BAB).
X-Codes 09-17-05, 05:20 PM	Dwarven Defender enters Defensive Stance! Enemy walks past dwarven defender, provoking an attack of opportunity! Dwarven Defender misses! You cannot tank at all if you aren't even a threat. If you are incapable of hitting an enemy, the enemy is just going to kill the things that *can* first (namely, your mage). Also, what happens if one of the enemies pulls a bow right after you enter your stance?
Bud Green 09-17-05, 05:40 PM	Dwarven Defender enters Defensive Stance! Enemy walks past dwarven defender, provoking an attack of opportunity! Dwarven Defender misses! You cannot tank at all if you aren't even a threat. If you are incapable of hitting an enemy, the enemy is just going to kill the things that *can* first (namely, your mage). Also, what happens if one of the enemies pulls a bow right after you enter your stance? He has full fighter BAB. Why would you assume he always misses and is not a threat? He doesn't *have* to use expertise every battle - or can just use the amount he wants. Are you suggesting Expertise is useless, or makes a character impotent in the offense department? Assuming that all the monsters will just ignore him and run through his AoOs is just wrong. Not every monster is intelligent. Many will just attack the first thing they see. Even intelligent monsters should not behave as if they've read the players' character sheets. A good DM is going to go with the monster's most likely course of action - not necessarily the perfect action to exploit every character's weak points. What happens if a monster draws a bow? Hmm, maybe the other party members kill him? I realize you are really just wanting to rain on this guy's parade, but your post is basically one big fallacy.
X-Codes 09-17-05, 06:02 PM	He has full fighter BAB. Why would you assume he always misses and is not a threat? He doesn't *have* to use expertise every battle - or can just use the amount he wants. Are you suggesting Expertise is useless, or makes a character impotent in the offense department? Assuming that all the monsters will just ignore him and run through his AoOs is just wrong. Not every monster is intelligent. Many will just attack the first thing they see. Even intelligent monsters should not behave as if they've read the players' character sheets. A good DM is going to go with the monster's most likely course of action - not necessarily the perfect action to exploit every character's weak points. What happens if a monster draws a bow? Hmm, maybe the other party members kill him? Uh, no... Combat Expertise is plenty useful. The problem here is that it appears all his feats are geared towards Defense, so unless he is using flanking or something of that sort to aid his attacks, his attack bonus is going to be 3+Strength if he keeps his AC at 63 all the time. At level 10, you aren't going to hit jack with that kind of attack roll. Second, most monsters over CR 8 ARE intelligent. Just about the only ones that aren't are golems, against which the Tank is going to need to do some damage. Even if a being is unintelligent, however, they can think "This thing is hurting me, I should kill it first." Int -- merely means that the being reacts on instinct or is controlled by another being, not that it's a fool that doesn't know how to walk. Third, ok, the other party members kill him. Many of them would have to walk past the Dwarven Defender to do so, meaning that the defender is now officially useless since it's stuck away from the fight. We should also not forget that the other party members would have had to end up killing him anyway, due to the DD's low damage output. I'm sorry, but to be an effective wall you need more than two really high numbers.
El_Machinae 09-17-05, 06:04 PM	Now make a Will save for Dominate Monster...there's a Mind Flayer behind you who just "happens" to want to examine your brains. I count a base will save on this character as being 7 - that's really not so bad. It's the same will save as a 10th level wizard!
ck2001wendt 09-17-05, 06:21 PM	I suggest you don't bother using your Superior Expertise at 10th level and keep your AC at 53, unless you're in bad need of some sort of Touch Attack protection. I don't see how many creatures are going to swing a greater than +33 attack bonus at CR 10 (or even 17). Tanks need to be able to hit things in addition to taking damage...
El_Machinae 09-17-05, 06:31 PM	You could always using tripping as your offense. Tripping doesn't need a good attack bonus, just good stability and strength.
X-Codes 09-17-05, 06:36 PM	You could always using tripping as your offense. Tripping doesn't need a good attack bonus, just good stability and strength. But hes got no reach, he uses a Waraxe, and stability doesn't count on trip attempts you make, only against trip attempts and any trip attempts made in response to a failed trip. He could use a different weapon, but I still don't understand how this character is effective at all, really.
El_Machinae 09-17-05, 06:39 PM	He'd have to use a flail, sure. I'd also assume that a potion of "enlarge person" would be standard for a DD by level 10.
Iry 09-17-05, 06:52 PM	After level 10, take a handful of levels in Horizon Walker so you can Dimension Door around :D Oooorr take 10 levels of Cleric and Divine Metamagic so you can persist things like Righteous Might and get even better Will Saves :P
X-Codes 09-17-05, 06:56 PM	He'd have to use a flail, sure. I'd also assume that a potion of "enlarge person" would be standard for a DD by level 10. My front-line warrior of this level has Gauntlets of Enlarge Person. Still, I don't like characters that put their entire focus into one number on their character sheet. If that number gets chopped down then the character is screwed. Also, this character can still only do Defensive Stance 1/day. So his base AC is 47... wait a sec... I'm only counting an AC of 34 after your items, you saying your Con score is 36+?
Bud Green 09-17-05, 08:23 PM	Uh, no... Combat Expertise is plenty useful. The problem here is that it appears all his feats are geared towards Defense, so unless he is using flanking or something of that sort to aid his attacks, his attack bonus is going to be 3+Strength if he keeps his AC at 63 all the time. At level 10, you aren't going to hit jack with that kind of attack roll. Second, most monsters over CR 8 ARE intelligent. Just about the only ones that aren't are golems, against which the Tank is going to need to do some damage. Even if a being is unintelligent, however, they can think "This thing is hurting me, I should kill it first." Int -- merely means that the being reacts on instinct or is controlled by another being, not that it's a fool that doesn't know how to walk. Third, ok, the other party members kill him. Many of them would have to walk past the Dwarven Defender to do so, meaning that the defender is now officially useless since it's stuck away from the fight. We should also not forget that the other party members would have had to end up killing him anyway, due to the DD's low damage output. I'm sorry, but to be an effective wall you need more than two really high numbers. You're making all kinds of assumptions, not the least of which is that the party is run by morons. Let's just assume that the DD player possesses a brain and can figure out when and how much of expertise to use. Let's also assume he can figure out when and when not to get into defensive stance. Let's get all crazy-like and even assume that, if there are other melee characters, which your last point assumes there are, that they are bright enough NOT to run past the DD but rather to help form the wall so stuff can't get past. Now it's a different scenario. Granted, his character is specialized for defense. Might not be your cup of tea, but it's perfectly viable.
X-Codes 09-17-05, 09:13 PM	You're making all kinds of assumptions, not the least of which is that the party is run by morons. Let's just assume that the DD player possesses a brain and can figure out when and how much of expertise to use. Let's also assume he can figure out when and when not to get into defensive stance. Let's get all crazy-like and even assume that, if there are other melee characters, which your last point assumes there are, that they are bright enough NOT to run past the DD but rather to help form the wall so stuff can't get past. Now it's a different scenario. Granted, his character is specialized for defense. Might not be your cup of tea, but it's perfectly viable. Ok, if there are other melee characters they are going to run right up next to the DD and also get shot at by the enemy with a bow? Why don't you actually read my posts before talking down to me? Too sane for you? My previous question still stands, what is this dwarf's constitution that gives him a +13 bonus to AC? Heavy Armor Optimization and the next one after gives a +2, tops. After that there might be Dodge, but that still leaves 10 AC unaccounted for. I have never heard of a level 10 character with 30 AC.
Bud Green 09-17-05, 09:28 PM	Well I wasn't meaning to talk down to you, and I apologize for having come off that way. And I did read your posts - I just think too much depends on unknown factors that cannot so easily be generalized. Exactly what monster (or monsters) is being fought? Do they have ranged capability? Is the battle in a room or a narrow corridor? If it's in a room, is there a doorway or other narrow chokepoint the PCs can use? What is the range? Who are the other party members? What is the initiative order? The OP specified that his AC is that high WHEN he is tanking. He didn't say he tanks every single battle, nor did he say he uses his entire BAB for AC every battle. Obviously, tanking is not important in every situation. But there certainly ARE situations when tanking is appropriate, and there ARE situations when two high numbers is all you need (even 1 high number, AC, would work). As for how he arrived at AC 63 - good catch. Doesn't seem to add up. Then again, I'm not familiar with mountain armor.
X-Codes 09-17-05, 09:34 PM	As for how he arrived at AC 63 - good catch. Doesn't seem to add up. Then again, I'm not familiar with mountain armor. If memory serves it's +10 AC exotic armor from Races of Stone with a +0 max dex. I could be wrong it could be +9 AC with either a +1 or +0 max dex, but I'm confident that it's the +10 AC armor.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 09:50 PM	I have never heard of a level 10 character with 30 AC.My gnome wizard build for the 10th level challenge thread has 32 AC with no magic items... and I didn't even try that hard. (10+8Improved Mage Armor+7natural (Alter Self: Troglodyte) +4shield+2dex+1size)
X-Codes 09-17-05, 09:56 PM	My gnome wizard build for the 10th level challenge thread has 30 AC with no magic items... and I didn't even try that hard. (10+8Improved Mage Armor+7natural (Alter Self: Troglodyte) +4shield+2dex+1size) Huh?... Thats wierd, I must have stopped mid-thought. However, Improved Mage Armor only gives +6 (thats the 3rd level spell, right?) and Trogs only have +6 NA last I checked, and you can't morph into a Trog and keep your size bonus to AC. You still break 30 with some rudimentary EQ, I know it's not hard. Like I said, I think I stopped mid-thought there.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 10:03 PM	Huh?... Thats wierd, I must have stopped mid-thought. However, Improved Mage Armor only gives +6 (thats the 3rd level spell, right?) and Trogs only have +6 NA last I checked, and you can't morph into a Trog and keep your size bonus to AC. You still break 30 with some rudimentary EQ, I know it's not hard. Like I said, I think I stopped mid-thought there.The Improved Mage Armor in the Unapproachable East book gives a max of +8 AC. I don't own Complete Arcane. If they changed it, I didn't know (and really don't care except for posting characters for stuff on here...). I did mess up on the Troglodyte's natural AC, and the size bonus, though. Thanks for catching that.
X-Codes 09-17-05, 10:08 PM	The Improved Mage Armor in the Unapproachable East book gives a max of +8 AC. I don't own Complete Arcane. If they changed it, I didn't know (and really don't care except for posting characters for stuff on here...). I did mess up on the Troglodyte's natural AC, and the size bonus, though. Thanks for catching that. There is a version of the spell in CA that is really quite obnoxious. It's 3rd level, gives a +6 bonus, and has a 25 gp material cost. It just doesn't seem superior to normal Mage Armor in any way, especially considering that you can just get a wand of Mage Armor for 750 gp and be set until your early teens.
hollow_ghost 09-17-05, 10:31 PM	One musn't forget that one can NOT use Combat Expertise without attacking. Also, if the tank does use expertise, he could also fight defensively. This build can be very useful in narrow dungeon. Maybe add caltrops or stuff like that to make monsters be wary of running past the defender.
Yellowsnow6967 09-17-05, 10:37 PM	Don't forget about Goed... this Charactor has Goed, which make him provoke creatures to attack him and no one else.
PhaedrusXY 09-17-05, 11:16 PM	One musn't forget that one can NOT use Combat Expertise without attacking. Also, if the tank does use expertise, he could also fight defensively. This build can be very useful in narrow dungeon. Maybe add caltrops or stuff like that to make monsters be wary of running past the defender.You can use Combat Expertise without actually attacking something. You just have to declare your standard action as an attack action. If you want to be nitpicky about it, the tank declares that he is trying to hit an invisible enemy in the square next to him. :P You can also use Combat Expertise at the same time as Fighting Defensively. This is explained in the FAQ.
allenchan 09-17-05, 11:17 PM	Its Goad. Not Goed. It also uses Cha. Which is normally low on a dwarf. Anyway, my original reason for posting was to have yoru dwarf use Mechanus Gear armor. Also +10, but not exotic. Therefore, use the feat on something better. Soemthing that helps you hit would be good.
573v3 09-18-05, 09:58 PM	Who says tanks need to be good at attacking, find a way of making goad decent, and as long as your in a party, youre infinitly useful.
allenchan 09-18-05, 10:04 PM	Who says tanks need to be good at attacking, find a way of making goad decent, and as long as your in a party, youre infinitly useful. Sadly, you have to be in a threatened square, which makes it extremely hard, especially for slow dwarves. Once one enemy gets Goaded, the rest will simply avoid the tank.
X-Codes 09-18-05, 10:07 PM	I'm still waiting for an explanation of how your AC got that high.
Mistwell 09-18-05, 11:50 PM	There is a version of the spell in CA that is really quite obnoxious. It's 3rd level, gives a +6 bonus, and has a 25 gp material cost. It just doesn't seem superior to normal Mage Armor in any way, especially considering that you can just get a wand of Mage Armor for 750 gp and be set until your early teens. Normal Mage Armor is +4 AC. +6 is 50% better than +4, so I am not sure how you can not view it as "superior to normal Mage Armor in any way". Also, given a wand of Mage Armor will only get you a single hours worth of +4 armor, I do not see how it would last you to "your early teens". It's going to be gone in less than a quarter of that given your average number of encounters per level. The one from UE is called Mage Armor, Improved, has a max +8, but has a 1 mins/lev duration and costs 100gp per use. The one from CA is called Greater Mage armor, is a flat +6, and has a 1hr/level duration and costs 25gp. [Edit - Correct for naming and duration error]
PhaedrusXY 09-19-05, 12:04 AM	The one from UE is called Mage Armor, Greater, has a max +8, but has a 10 mins/lev duration and costs 100gp per use.Where are you getting this info? Crystalkeep or something? Because it is wrong. The spell in UE is called Improved Mage Armor, and the duration is only 1 min/lvl. It does have the 100 gp component cost, though, and you got the max AC bonus right. (Unless there is an errata somewhere that changes it to what you're saying...)
Surreal 09-19-05, 12:33 AM	I'm sorry, but to be an effective wall you need more than two really high numbers. Yep, you also need two walls on either side of you... and a couple archers behind you :)
Mistwell 09-19-05, 01:03 AM	Where are you getting this info? Crystalkeep or something? Because it is wrong. The spell in UE is called Improved Mage Armor, and the duration is only 1 min/lvl. It does have the 100 gp component cost, though, and you got the max AC bonus right. (Unless there is an errata somewhere that changes it to what you're saying...) It was just me being incredibly lazy and not going and looking at the book and trying to do it by memory. You're right on the name and duration for the one from UE. It's the one from CA that is called Greater. Anyway, the point stands that the one from UE doesn't last all day, costs more to cast, and isn't a flat bonus but a variable bonus based on caster level.
Yellowsnow6967 09-19-05, 03:42 PM	I'm still waiting for an explanation of how your AC got that high. The AC got that high for these reasons: 10 base 13 +3 Mountain Plate armor 7 +3 Towershield 10 Con Bonus (Deepwarden + Defencive Stance) 2 +2 Ring of Protection 2 Amulet of NA 1 Tumble Synergy 4 Defencive Stance 1 Dwarven Defender 10 Combat Expertise (Improved) 60 Total AC... Sorry i must of mis added