Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Franco Un-American 11-28-04, 06:01 PM	I'm currently trying to find the 6 cheesiest, most brokenly broken builds to use as BBEG's in my njext campaign. I've found 4: 1: War Hulking Hurler 2: Frenzied Berserker 3: The Cheater of Mystra 4: The King of Smack Anyone good enough to come up with 2 build ideas that don't look completely ridiculous (sp?) when placed alongside these? PS: Arcane and/or Sneak Attackers preferred, but all are seriously considered. All ideas should be 20 level.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 06:12 PM	Needs some of the ungodly Sublime Chord stuff from Complete Arcane. Combine one with Apostle of Peace, mystic theurge, and/or ur-priest to get 9th level arcane and divine spells, at ungodly caster levels. Caelic's your man for this one -- he's got a lot of them. Another option would be a simple druid 20 or artificer 20. There are people who max these guys out for fun and profit. The latter can rock throughout the career -- try around 144d6 per round at level 9, for instance, and that was BEFORE Complete Arcane introduced Dual Wand Weilder and similar feats. The war hulking hurler isn't a good BBEG because he's completely one-shot. Use a more sustainable version, probably with LA buyoff. I came up with a slightly less obscene hulk-less hurler in that thread; you might want to consider that one for some ideas (no war hulk levels or templates needed). EDIT -- Snow Owl's archers. Just remembered some of those. Needs a bit of tweaking (since he routinely uses the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate), but they make oustanding snipers. How does "One Shot. One Kill. From the Shadows. On Mars." sound?
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 06:26 PM	The hulking hurler needs to have Mind Blank, otherwise you're giving it as thrall to the PCs(0 or 2 wil save IIRC). I could recomend wizard 2/ Cleric 3/ Maho-Tsukai 1/Dweomerkeeper(or Incantatar) 10/Mystic Theurge 2/ Something 2 A Wilder 20 can go over 6000 damage IIRC If you're really evil use this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=341819&highlight=apostle+of+maho BTW, those 4 builds already look completely ridiculous together.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 06:32 PM	Apostle of Maho doesn't work -- Exalted blood sorcerors is like asking to play someone who's Lawful Chaotic. Furthermore, you can't trade in a virtual caster level for maho ability, only an actual level in a spellcasting class. And as a psionic freak here, I'm curious as to how a wilder can do that much in your opinion.
ksbsnowowl 11-28-04, 06:52 PM	As Tempest pointed out, one of my archer builds may be a decent option. Although I do work with 3.0 for the most part, the 3.0 OotBI is not essential to my sniper build. Those final 5 levels could easily be replaced by Pious Templar from CD or Cragtop Archer from RoS. (Didn't WotC publish an evil version of bless weapon on the website, for black guards?) The builds can be found through the link in my sig.
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 07:25 PM	Apostle of Maho doesn't work -- Exalted blood sorcerors is like asking to play someone who's Lawful Chaotic. Furthermore, you can't trade in a virtual caster level for maho ability, only an actual level in a spellcasting class. And as a psionic freak here, I'm curious as to how a wilder can do that much in your opinion. It works by the RAW(I never claimed otherwise, quite the contrary actually), and nowhere it's stated that only caster levels are allowed, maybe you should check this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307881&page=2 this thread shows the use of virtual caster levels as caster levels converted to Maho-Tsukai. Psionics are cheap(no ofense), wild surge+fission+suicide= multiple level ups. As to the damage, use Reality Revision(+tought bottle) and ask not to be enervated in a specific turn/hour/minute(whatever your DM allows), fission yourself(with wild surge), both use schism(WS again), Temporal Acceleration(IIRC the name)+split ray+delay power disintegrate with the four minds as much as you can, then use with every mind(everything in each of the fission's and original's turn) split ray+twin power disintegrate(this alone should do 640d6~=2240). Sorry if it is confuse, I'm not good at explaining things :embarrass . EDIT: Always Wild Surge.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 08:07 PM	Psionics are cheap(no ofense), wild surge+fission+suicide= multiple level ups. As to the damage, use Reality Revision(+tought bottle) and ask not to be enervated in a specific turn/hour/minute(whatever your DM allows), fission yourself(with wild surge), both use schism(WS again), Temporal Acceleration(IIRC the name)+split ray+delay power disintegrate with the four minds as much as you can, then use with every mind(everything in each of the fission's and original's turn) split ray+twin power disintegrate(this alone should do 640d6~=2240). Sorry if it is confuse, I'm not good at explaining things :embarrass . EDIT: Always Wild Surge. Let me address this in stages. 1) No, they're not cheap. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253) They're actually well-balanced, better balanced than most arcane things I see. 2) The following powers you mention REQUIRE A FEAT for the wilder to get, as they are on a restricted discipline list for them. The wilder must be capable of manifesting powers one level higher than the indicated power, and must spend a character feat on them. a) Fission (Egoist 7) b) Schism (Telepath 4) 3) The following powers are UNAVAILABLE to the wilder, because they are 9th level discipline-specific powers (and thus beyond what Expanded-Knowledge can deliver): a) Reality Revision (Seer 9) 4) Schism lowers your manifester level by 6 for the secondary mind, and your Fission-duplicate has 2 negative levels (an effective -2 ML). This means that you don't have 4 20th level manifesters, you have a 20th and an 18th, piggybacking a 14th and a 12th level secondary mind each. Schism also takes effect the round AFTER you manifest it (so you have to wait to benefit from it unlike 3.0 haste), and Fission splits your power points in half. 5) Wild Surge +6, the mighty one you're suggesting using a lot, has a whopping 30% chance to stun the wilder for one round and deplete an extra 20 power points beyond the power's cost. EVERY TIME YOU USE IT. So, some of those surges are going to be enervated (negating the opportunity to use the surge again on the next round, plus giving you fewer PP to manifest the second round after). 6) Delay Power will not work with Psionic Disintegrate. It's not an area or a personal power. 7) Did you even notice that any metapsionic feats you use require you to expend your psionic focus, which takes a FULL ROUND ACTION and a DC 20 concentration check to recover? There's an extra feat which speeds this up to a move action (Psionic Meditation), but that action cannot be taken by your Schism-mind, ever. Furthermore, your schism-mind cannot be focused (clarified by Bruce Cordell himself), meaning it cannot use metapsionics. Finally, there is only ONE way to use 2 metapsionic feats on one power in one round: It requires Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Confinement as well, and it still takes a full-round action to acquire focus for you AND another full-round to acquire focus for your psicrystal. So, let's figure out feats spent here, assuming you built this character and tried this trick. He's got two Expanded Knowledge feats, at least two metapsionic feats, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Confinement, and Psionic Meditation (trust me, if you want frequent metapsi, you need this). 7 feats. A wilder gets exactly 7 feats, 8 if he's human. He also only knows 11 powers without those feats (fewer powers than the Warlock has invocations, to put that in perspective). The progression is legal, but horribly restrictive. Furthermore, the tactics you suggest are completely illegal -- no time spent recovering focus, using a feat that doesn't apply to a power that wouldn't do any damage during the timeframe anyway, and relying on a power that you can not attain under normal circumstances. No offense intended, but this is about as rules-legal as me saying my straight-classed naked 20th level fighter walks up to you, shapechanges into a Sharn, takes a full-attack with his claws using Rapid Shot, and you take 12d6 sneak attack damage on each hit if you don't save against his vorpal claws. One question for you, then -- if you thought this was possible, how much do you understand about psionics?
Nightspirit 11-28-04, 08:12 PM	It works by the RAW(I never claimed otherwise, quite the contrary actually), and nowhere it's stated that only caster levels are allowed, maybe you should check this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307881&page=2 this thread shows the use of virtual caster levels as caster levels converted to Maho-Tsukai. Psionics are cheap(no ofense), wild surge+fission+suicide= multiple level ups. As to the damage, use Reality Revision(+tought bottle) and ask not to be enervated in a specific turn/hour/minute(whatever your DM allows), fission yourself(with wild surge), both use schism(WS again), Temporal Acceleration(IIRC the name)+split ray+delay power disintegrate with the four minds as much as you can, then use with every mind(everything in each of the fission's and original's turn) split ray+twin power disintegrate(this alone should do 640d6~=2240). Sorry if it is confuse, I'm not good at explaining things :embarrass . EDIT: Always Wild Surge. you can't delay disintegrate...and disintegrate doesn't function in temporal acceleration, even if you delay it(and you can't), because it require a target human wizard 5/cleric 1/dweomerkeeper 10/warmage 4 or human sorcerer 6/incantatrix 10/warmage 4(I know, incantatrix is a Faerunian PrC, and warmage is from DragonLance so this is only a theoric build) human sorcerer 9/incantatrix 10/marshall 1(but you know only two 9th level spells...take leadership and gives to your cohort[a wizards or a cleric] some item creation feat, then let him create items for you) gnome illusionist 5/shadowcrafter 9/shadowcraft mage 5/shadow adept 1 with heighten spell, earth sense, earth spell human sorcerer 6/frostmage 9/warmage 5 or wizard 5/elemental savant 10/warmage 5 EDIT: No offense intended, but this is about as rules-legal as me saying my straight-classed naked 20th level fighter walks up to you, shapechanges into a Sharn, takes a full-attack with his claws using Rapid Shot, and you take 12d6 sneak attack damage on each hit if you don't save against his vorpal claws. you can't polymorph into a sharn
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 08:19 PM	you can't polymorph into a sharn You'll note I was being sarcastic.
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 08:33 PM	I also think they are balanced, I was refering to the WS+fission+suicide when I said they were cheap. 2) The following powers you mention REQUIRE A FEAT for the wilder to get, as they are on a restricted discipline list for them. The wilder must be capable of manifesting powers one level higher than the indicated power, and must spend a character feat on them. a) Fission (Egoist 7) b) Schism (Telepath 4) Lvls 15 & 18 feats 7) Did you even notice that any metapsionic feats you use require you to expend your psionic focus, which takes a FULL ROUND ACTION and a DC 20 concentration check to recover? There's an extra feat which speeds this up to a move action (Psionic Meditation), but that action cannot be taken by your Schism-mind, ever. Furthermore, your schism-mind cannot be focused (clarified by Bruce Cordell himself), meaning it cannot use metapsionics. Finally, there is only ONE way to use 2 metapsionic feats on one power in one round: It requires Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Confinement as well, and it still takes a full-round action to acquire focus for you AND another full-round to acquire focus for your psicrystal. Psicrystal feats+psionic meditation 3) The following powers are UNAVAILABLE to the wilder, because they are 9th level discipline-specific powers (and thus beyond what Expanded-Knowledge can deliver): a) Reality Revision (Seer 9) From the SRD: Reality Revision Clairsentience Level: Psion/wilder 9 4) Schism lowers your manifester level by 6 for the secondary mind, and your Fission-duplicate has 2 negative levels (an effective -2 ML). This means that you don't have 4 20th level manifesters, you have a 20th and an 18th, piggybacking a 14th and a 12th level secondary mind each. Schism also takes effect the round AFTER you manifest it (so you have to wait to benefit from it unlike 3.0 haste), and Fission splits your power points in half. Wild Surge says your level is considered X(6 at 20) levels higher for all spell-dependant effects, that includes fission stuff(which will take you to ridiculously high levels and allow you to do 6000 damage anyway). I admit I was wrong in this one, forgive me, I forgot about the psionic focus and delay power.
RadicalTaoist 11-28-04, 08:40 PM	Thank You Tempest. What's this Wild Surge + Fission + Suicide tactic you keep talking about, Faleng? As for the original post, the King of Smack and the Hulking Hurler have glass jaws. The Hurler has been described (how much damage does the Hulk-less do?). The King of Smack will be in trouble if he's regularly dispelled. Frenzied Berserker can be handled well if you keep him occupied by mobs of weak summoned monsters. Or attack his Will save. As for the Cheater of Mystra...well, Mordenkainen's Disjunction sounds like your only hope.
SigmaJargon 11-28-04, 08:44 PM	All that aside, if you're facing PC's, I'd also pop in a Sleight of Hand / Spring Attack rogue to relieve your players of their, uh, worldly possessions. If you're going for 20th level builds, a simple Psionic Rogue 11 / Elocater 9 works fairly well.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 09:00 PM	The hulk-less one has comparable unbuffed strength, but only in a rage (it has 10 levels in Bear Warrior for +20 strength during a rage). It was designed more for a half-ogre PC to actually play, or -- get this -- possibly even a HALF-ORC. It all depends on whether or not you interpret Complete Warrior's section on prerequisites to imply that an item can provide a prerequisite (and thus you gain the abilities of the class only as long as you have that item active). You'd use an Expansion item to qualify for the Hulking Hurler. I seem to recall something about a rogue build here stealing every single item a PC had in one round... anyone remember this one? I can't find a link or remember the original poster. I think the Wild Surge +fission +suicide trick he's referring to involves guarding against negative levels and then fissioning and killing yourself and being awarded experience for it. If it were possible for things to make negative amounts of sense, this would be a prime candidate. Or maybe it involves Affinity Field or some other thing misinterpreted as providing an infinite loop, like so may 3.0 psionic things did... anyone remember the Infinite PP loops? I apologise for my screwup on Reality Revision, but that's the only hole in my reasoning. I remembered it later since it showed up as a Seer power on the power list, which was the only thing I was checking (I forgot the exact level of Fission when I started, so I needed to reference something).
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 09:14 PM	I think the Wild Surge +fission +suicide trick he's referring to involves guarding against negative levels and then fissioning and killing yourself and being awarded experience for it. If it were possible for things to make negative amounts of sense, this would be a prime candidate. :rofl: You though wrong When you Wild Surge the level dependent benefits are also improved, which means you'd count as beeing 6(at lvl 20) levels higher, level 26, and your fission as 2 levels lower, lvl 24(without Wild Surging!), and if you die, you become your fission. Of course I won't even bother discussing this, since no DM would allow.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 09:26 PM	:rofl: You though wrong When you Wild Surge the level dependent benefits are also improved, which means you'd count as beeing 6(at lvl 20) levels higher, level 26, and your fission as 2 levels lower, lvl 24(without Wild Surging!), and if you die, you become your fission. Of course I won't even bother discussing this, since no DM would allow. Actually, I think I'm right about something. If it were possible for things to make negative amounts of sense, this would be a prime candidate. Wild Surge only affects your MANIFESTER LEVEL. Fission creates a duplicate of you at your CHARACTER LEVEL, with two negative levels. Wild Surge only affects the duration (based on ML).
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 09:42 PM	From the SRD: Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. Fission is a level-dependent power, thus, also improved.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 09:48 PM	The POWER's only level-dependant effect is the duration. It is listed as "Effect: Duplicate of yourself" -- nothing in this depends on your level. Nothing else in the power's statistics mentions manifester level, and the power itself only refers to negative levels, so Wild Surge doesn't affect it (beyond the duration). Furthermore, if you want another argument, it creates a duplicate of YOU. The duplicate is an exact copy of you, with 2 negative levels. Well... at the moment the duplication happens, he's 'surged up to a ML of 26 (NOT "level 26" -- just manifester level)... but then the negative levels kick in (ML 24) and the surge ends (ML 18, exactly where it should be).
Dark_and_Stormy 11-28-04, 09:55 PM	There was a nice thread a while back.... <mutters curses about search engine> Aha! Here it is.... In direct response to the original question: Ted! The Enabler. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175652 Go forth and make laughter happen.
Fălenganor 11-28-04, 10:05 PM	but then the negative levels kick in (ML 24) and the surge ends (ML 18, exactly where it should be). Nope, From the SRD: Powers, spells, or other effects affecting you when you manifest this power do not transfer to your duplicate. That means your fission will be level 24 without it Wild Surging. It's specifically said in the Wild Surge description: From the SRD: Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. The fision's level is actually dependent on your level and so, also improved.
Tempest Stormwind 11-28-04, 10:11 PM	You just talked yourself into a corner. Powers, spells, or other effects affecting you when you manifest this power do not transfer to your duplicate. Guess what? Wild Surge is an effect. Just as you suddenly don't gain 4 base attack points, larger saves, and two feats every time you surge, you don't actually gain a level. And even if you did, it wouldn't transfer to the duplicate. Ted the Enabler (tm)... Man, and I thought Nodwick (www.nodwick.com) was indispensable. I simply must order Ted right away! And yet I feel the need to quote random rules in a semi-surly state and use large embellishing words, for no particular reason...
Khelvaster 11-28-04, 10:32 PM	I think that a Hex2/Wiz5/UP3/MT10 would work wonders. Twolevels of hexblade for mettle to help against save-or-die spells and more importantly to fulfill the BaB and base fort save reqs, Wiz for the arcane casting reqs, UP3 for the divine casting reqs, and MT 10 for 8th level arcane and 9th level divine spells. Would Hex1/Wiz6 work better?
Fălenganor 11-29-04, 10:15 AM	Guess what? Wild Surge is an effect. Just as you suddenly don't gain 4 base attack points, larger saves, and two feats every time you surge, you don't actually gain a level. Right. And even if you did, it wouldn't transfer to the duplicate. It just says effects aren't transfered, not that they don't affect the the power. Again, from the SRD: Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. When you Wild Surge your level is treated as X levels higher for level dependent power-effects, such as your fissions level, because when you manifest Fission the power treats you as X levels higher. That's why I'm using Wild Surge, not Overchanel, they're diferent, Overchanel only improves your manifester level dependent effects, while Wild Surge improves it plus your level-dependent power effects. BTW, let's stop this discussion, we both have endless evidences that to prove the other wrong for all eternity, as it's happening in the Apostle thread, the thing is that the autors can't simply think of every possible combination, so things that shouldn't be legal by the sake of balance, end up being, and as I said, I think we shouldn't bother discussing since no sane(or merciful) DM would allow.
incubus 11-29-04, 07:16 PM	The war hulking hurler isn't a good BBEG because he's completely one-shot. Use a more sustainable version, probably with LA buyoff. I came up with a slightly less obscene hulk-less hurler in that thread; you might want to consider that one for some ideas (no war hulk levels or templates needed). Just start with the first page builds, and you're at the 5000d6 damage mark without needing magic at level 20. You've spent a mere 35,000gp on your weapon, and have some fantastic amount of cash, feats and the like to build up the character's weaknesses (which are comparable to any other fighter - the original builds don't reduce the character's abilities from a fighter at all, beyond making all mental skills zero ranks). With LA buyoff, I think the same build is only level 14 or so, so you could even throw in a bunch of levels of anti-caster power.
Mirikon 11-29-04, 07:24 PM	Well, how about these two: Warlock 10/Spellfire Wielder 10 Rogue 10/Assassin 10 Yes, the Rogue/Assassin thing's been done to death. That doesn't mean it kicks less ass, though. And a warlock with Spellfire is just plain nasty.
Darryl Hamlin 11-29-04, 07:39 PM	Right. It just says effects aren't transfered, not that they don't affect the the power. Again, from the SRD: Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. When you Wild Surge your level is treated as X levels higher for level dependent power-effects, such as your fissions level, because when you manifest Fission the power treats you as X levels higher. That's why I'm using Wild Surge, not Overchanel, they're diferent, Overchanel only improves your manifester level dependent effects, while Wild Surge improves it plus your level-dependent power effects. BTW, let's stop this discussion, we both have endless evidences that to prove the other wrong for all eternity, as it's happening in the Apostle thread, the thing is that the autors can't simply think of every possible combination, so things that shouldn't be legal by the sake of balance, end up being, and as I said, I think we shouldn't bother discussing since no sane(or merciful) DM would allow. wild surge does not affect character level. you are treated as x levels higher, but your fission is still two levels below your character level. note that it includes non-manifester levels, too, like if you had some fighter or sorcerer levels, it would just lose the two most recent levels.
Tempest Stormwind 11-29-04, 08:10 PM	Incubus: Good call; when most people mention the obscene broken-ness of the guy they're referring to the trillion-average-damage thing, but like you said in the first post, even at "only" 1331 d6, "who cares about damage resistance!" Mirikon: If you're willing to give up a bit of sneak attack, Rogue 7 / Assassin 7 / Teflammar Shadowlord 6 gives you a lot of nifty shadow-themed goodies and an effective death attack DC of 23+Int mod. On the other hand, though, I hadn't thought about spellfire wielder and warlock. Sounds fun and cool and all that, but I'll have to reread the class (the last DM I worked with got kinda mad at a fellow player for trying a spellfire-themed guy; I've avoided it since) Fălenganor: I'm certain if you took a poll you'd find you're in the minority. This includes a poll among Wizards staff and freelance writers familiar with the material, including Bruce Cordell himself. That is, if all the rules we've shown you aren't enough to punch holes as big as the HH's ammo bag in your arguments.
Franco Un-American 11-29-04, 08:34 PM	Ok, now to choose... Just a couple questions 1: I don't have many 3.0 spatbooks, so the CW is the only OotBI source I have. What are the revision changes? 2: As for the rogue, I'm just going to find as many Sneak Attackers as I can, and stack them to death. I've already got Assassin and (of course) Invisible Blade, any others? 3: I don't collect any FR stuff (can't be bothered to catch up on 20 years of history), so try to avid it unless it's in the PGtF.) 4: I was already planning to use the first page build to limit the weaknesses, and the group as it currently stands has only a cleric spellcaster w/ somwone who is unfamiliar, to say the least, with spellcasters. One player still has to decide though. So, Mordenkainen's Disjunction is probably not going to be a problem. Anyway, thanks alot!
Tempest Stormwind 11-29-04, 09:29 PM	1) Order of the Bow Initiate first showed up in Sword and Fist. It had a sneak attack progression with ranged weapons instead of Precise Shot, and Free Attack which let the OotBI fire an arrow once per round when another ALLY could make an attack of opportunity (i.e. if the enemy wizard moves out of the fighter's area, the OotBI gets an AoO). It also got Zen Archery as a class feature, but -- get this -- if you already had the feat, both Dexterity and Wisdom applied on attack rolls. Finally, it has Banked Shot, which lets it catch targets flat footed virtually on-command, if the target is within 20 feet of a wall (and is not adjacent to the wall). The rest of it is pretty similar, I believe (Don't have CW with me). 2) You're looking at sneak attack at first level? Well, I can say you'll spend more time trying to qualify for all of them than stacking them to death. Still, there's plenty of +1d6 every 2 levels classes out there that you might want to work with. I'm positive someone's done a compilation here. 3) The PGtF still has the Incantrix and the web enhancement has the Dwoemerkeeper. That book is the basis for the Cheater of Mystra, among other things. I hope that helps.