Any way to make a Straight SSage TWF build that's decent...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any way to make a Straight SSage TWF build that's decent...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seef
10-08-06, 05:35 PM I've seen it done with the Warblade and I like how the build is strong but not totally crazy overpowered. Kinda' wondering if there are ways to do it with the SSage. GTWF can't really be taken just cuz of the BAB. This automatically made me think that the SSage wouldn't be as good as the warblade at later levels. However, the manuvers might balance the two out. What do you guys think...?
Richmud
10-08-06, 05:46 PM The sneak attack from assassin stance and use of shadow blade to go with the high dex need for the feats might be enough to make it work out
Phoenix00
10-08-06, 05:58 PM I know you want a "straight" build.

But have you considered taking 3 levels of Assassin, and getting at least 4 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage? The 4 levels of JPM is so you get full bab during those levels, and thus getting at least 16 BAB at lvl 20. 3 Lvls of Assassin gets you 2d6 sneak attack, 2nd level spells for JPM, and the whole point of this exercise wraithstrike. Remember JPM continues your initator level and gives you manuevers.

But if you want a pure build to just compare power levels ignore everything I said, and I am sorry for wasting your time. :angel:

On another note, a very nice thing about swordsage is that it gets 6 skill points per level, and a very nice class known list. You can't fill the skill monkey roll by yourself, but you can definately help.
X-Codes
10-08-06, 06:06 PM Desert Wind! Use Desert Wind with a TWF Swordsage. Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade is enough to use Desert Wind if you're going TWF.

You should also work your way up to Pouncing Charge in the Tiger Claw discipline and Time Stands Still in the Diamond Mind discipline.

Yes, a TWF Swordsage can be *very* effective.
Seef
10-08-06, 07:35 PM What kind of feats would you guys suggest? TWF and ITWF is an obvious given. I'm thinking about getting Stormguard Warrior, but it would be kind of hard with the SSage because it doesn't have Ironheart manuvers available. I'm thinking that burning 3 feats(2 martial study and Ironheart aura) isn't worth it overall. I'm also playing around with whether or not I wanna center this around a lot of attacks that crit. It's hard to fit all this in with a straight SSage because all the ideas require lots of feats. But yea...any ideas?
X-Codes
10-08-06, 07:56 PM Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade are obvious. The problem is that most of the other feats in this book are easier/better with THF except for Stormguard Warrior.
GaffeR
10-08-06, 08:05 PM It is ok with SS 20, but I dipped Fighter 2, Warblade, and Bloodclaw Master.

However, you'll probably want to skip Stomguard Warrior. 3 feats to qualify is TOO many.

Human Swordsage 20:
1. Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade, (WF: Shadow Hand)
3. Weapon Finesse
6. TWF
9. Gloom Razor/ITWF (BAB's a bit low for ITWF here)
12. ITWF/Gloom Razor
15. GTWF
18. Free

I'd suggest not focusing on crits, as the Shadow hand weapons don't go past 19-20x2.

I also agree with X-Codes' maneuvers. I'd work for Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still, the various Flame blades (low is fine, I think the damage comes from the +1 per IL, not the dice). Assassin's stance can help out with more damage, but I like the synergy of Child of Shadows + Gloom Razor.

Anyways, other than a bit of BAB and no Stormguard, a pure Swordsage TWFer can kick a whole lot of ass. Not to mention it has more versatility than the Warblade, and it's cooler. :D
Seef
10-08-06, 08:14 PM How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing).
creepy drifter
10-08-06, 08:19 PM I can't see the GTWF feat being to valuable in this build.

That's pretty much true for most TWF builds as well (unless they can get close to a final BAB of +20 plus maybe stuff like +X Combat Sense from Knight of the Middle Circle thrown in).
X-Codes
10-08-06, 08:23 PM How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing).
Shadow Slip makes it really easy to move 10' as a free action, which gives you concealment a'la Child of Shadow. One ability of the Gloom Razor feat triggers if your opponent misses from concealment, then on your turn you get to make a hide check opposed by their spot as a free action to become invisible. In turn, it becomes really easy for you to move 10' and flank with an ally and hit your opponent, which triggers Shadow Slip the next turn, with which you can easily move 10' and get the concealment bonus from Child of Shadow. Even if you aren't missed because of Concealment, you can still make your opponent flat-footed for one attack as long as you keep moving 10' each turn, which is a free action with Shadow Slip.

It just keeps going on and on and on. You end up with concealment the whole time and your opponent is flat-footed against at least one attack each round (which lets you use any number of Shadow Hand manuvers).
GaffeR
10-08-06, 08:26 PM How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing).
Shadow slip: Hit flanked opponent, make tumble check, move as a free action (at least 10 feat), trigger Child of shadows! Yay!
Moving Shadows: move at least 10 feat (Shadow slipped), next turn = flat footed! Huzzah! Unload with a nasty Shadow hand maneuver
Lingering Gloom: We're still concealed thanks to shadow slip, if he misses us, we get to go invisible!

It's a really great feat. Admittedly, island of blades would help to get that first shadow slip off. I'm not sure which stance I like better for this feat.

Edit: Curse you X-Codes!
Seef
10-08-06, 08:30 PM I think it might. Assuming at lvl 15 your gonna have some 2 Martial Discipline weapons with probably Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. That's at least +3 to hit for each hand, and when using manuvers for each itll give at least +7 to hit. This will def help even out the penalty for the 3rd hit. And that extra attack will translate into 2 xtra with time stand still and with with your desert wind blade manuvers, that can be all the more damage. Idk, that's how I see it, and I'd want it in the build anyway
Seef
10-08-06, 08:36 PM Ahhhh ok I get ya...

That's quite the nifty little trick.

Question about the Moving Shadows tactic with the feat, Can you move 10 feet and then attack to make the person flatfooted? It says you must deal damage with a melee attack and move 10 feet. I'm assuming you can through RAW but I'm just making sure.
GaffeR
10-08-06, 08:36 PM I'd also want GTWF in there. You attack pattern with nothin but BAB would be:
13/13/8/8/3/3
Without TWF its:
15/10/5
Might as well stick it in there.
X-Codes
10-08-06, 08:47 PM Edit: Curse you X-Codes!
Payback's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=716557) a *****. :P

Yes, so long as you move 10' and attack in the same round you get to use Moving Shadows on your next turn.
GaffeR
10-08-06, 08:53 PM Payback's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=716557) a *****. :P
:rofl:
I guess I did have that one comin'. You best watch your back, though! :P
Wire
10-08-06, 08:59 PM I'd also want GTWF in there. You attack pattern with nothin but BAB would be:
13/13/8/8/3/3
Without TWF its:
15/10/5
Might as well stick it in there.I think the prior poster was saying stop at ITWF, but can the GTWF feat. I tend to agree. The odds of the GTWF granted attacks hitting (in play experience) are extremely rare.
GaffeR
10-08-06, 09:03 PM I think the prior poster was saying stop at ITWF, but can the GTWF feat. I tend to agree. The odds of the GTWF granted attacks hitting (in play experience) are extremely rare.
ITWF yes, GTWF, no is what I got out of it. True, the attack bonus is a bit low, but there are many ways to negate a lot of armor with a Sworsage. Also, the martial discipline weapons make up a lot of it. Like I said, I'd still stick it in my build.
FriendlyFrog
10-09-06, 03:56 AM ITWF yes, GTWF, no is what I got out of it. True, the attack bonus is a bit low, but there are many ways to negate a lot of armor with a Sworsage. Also, the martial discipline weapons make up a lot of it. Like I said, I'd still stick it in my build.
As Swordsages also have lots of ways to make the enemy lose their dexterity bonus to AC, hitting isn't always that hard, really. And it's not as if having the feat hurts you in some way, if you can afford a feat for it (though as Swordsages can eat lots of feats, it's possible that you can't).
Seef
10-09-06, 11:57 AM Well here's the build that I put together with the advice you guys gave me. Critique the as much as you like (There's probably a lot of stuff I'm overlooking). So yea...Thanks again!!!

Human

Feats

1 SSage- Weapon Focus (Shadowhand), Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style
3 SSage – TWF/Wep Finesse
6 SSage – Wep Finesse/TWF
9 SSage- Gloom Razor
12 SSage- ITWF
15 SSage- GTWF
18 SSage- Free Feat…

Maneuvers + Stances (In italics)

1 SSage- Burning Blade(DW), Sapphire Nightmare Blade(DM), Wolf Fang Strike(TC), Sudden Leap(TC), Clinging Shadow Strike(SH), Shadow Blade Technique(SH),
Child of the Shadows(SH)
2 SSage – Distracting Ember(DW), Stance of Clarity(DM)
3 SSage – Rabid Wolf Strike(TC)
4 SSage- Switch Wolf Fang Strike w/ Claw at the Moon(TC), Fire Riposte(DW)
5 SSage- Assassin’s Stance(SH), Death Mark(DW)
6 SSage – Switch Distracting Ember w/ Shadow Garrote(SH), Mind over Body(DM)
7 SSage – Searing Blade(DW)
8 SSage – Replace Clinging Shadow Strike w/ Ruby Nightmare Blade(DM), Obscuring Shadow Veil(SH)
9 SSage- Dancing Mongoose(TC), Hearing the Air(DM)
10 SSage- Switch Sudden Leap w/ Pouncing Charge(TC), Shadow Stride(SH)
11 SSage- Moment of Alacrity(DM)
12 SSage- Rabid Bear Strike(TC) switch with Rabid Wolf Strike, Shadow Noose(SH)
13 SSage- Quick Silver Motion(DM)
14 SSage- Inferno Blade(DW) switch with Searing Blade, Death in the Dark(SH), Fiery Assault(DW)
15 SSage- Raging Mongoose(TC)
16 SSage- Replace Dancing Mongoose w/ Girallon Flesh Rip, Diamond Nightmare Blade(DM)
17 SSage-Time Stands Still(DM)
18 SSage- Replace Shadowblade Technique w/5-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike(SH), Feral Death Blow(TC)
19 SSage- Enervating Shadow Strike(SH)
20 SSage- Rising Phoenix(DW), Switch Sapphire Nightmare Blade w/ Inferno Blast

And once again, I need some critique, mainly on the manuvers I'm choosing and what I'm switching in and out. So yea...
Seef
10-09-06, 01:27 PM bump...
Campbell55
10-15-06, 11:56 AM Guys...why always finesse??

Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons

look at the SS....90% simple weapons
LiamDeclan
10-15-06, 12:05 PM Guys...why always finesse??

Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons

look at the SS....90% simple weapons

Do you mean Insightful Strike at 4th level SS ?
That is only for damage and only with strikes from that discipline.
ff6shadow
10-15-06, 12:15 PM No, I beleive he's refering to a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds
jedrious
10-15-06, 12:15 PM Do you mean Insightful Strike at 4th level SS ?
That is only for damage and only with strikes from that discipline.
no intuitive strike an EXALTED feat that lets you use wis to attack on all simple weapons
FriendlyFrog
10-15-06, 12:23 PM Guys...why always finesse??

Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons
Perhaps because every build using light weapons also uses two-weapon fighting, which requires a high dexterity. Almost every such Swordsage has a lot higher dexterity than wisdom. And Shadow blade works always, unlike the Insightful strike ability that works only when using strikes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seef 10-08-06, 05:35 PM	I've seen it done with the Warblade and I like how the build is strong but not totally crazy overpowered. Kinda' wondering if there are ways to do it with the SSage. GTWF can't really be taken just cuz of the BAB. This automatically made me think that the SSage wouldn't be as good as the warblade at later levels. However, the manuvers might balance the two out. What do you guys think...?
Richmud 10-08-06, 05:46 PM	The sneak attack from assassin stance and use of shadow blade to go with the high dex need for the feats might be enough to make it work out
Phoenix00 10-08-06, 05:58 PM	I know you want a "straight" build. But have you considered taking 3 levels of Assassin, and getting at least 4 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage? The 4 levels of JPM is so you get full bab during those levels, and thus getting at least 16 BAB at lvl 20. 3 Lvls of Assassin gets you 2d6 sneak attack, 2nd level spells for JPM, and the whole point of this exercise wraithstrike. Remember JPM continues your initator level and gives you manuevers. But if you want a pure build to just compare power levels ignore everything I said, and I am sorry for wasting your time. :angel: On another note, a very nice thing about swordsage is that it gets 6 skill points per level, and a very nice class known list. You can't fill the skill monkey roll by yourself, but you can definately help.
X-Codes 10-08-06, 06:06 PM	Desert Wind! Use Desert Wind with a TWF Swordsage. Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade is enough to use Desert Wind if you're going TWF. You should also work your way up to Pouncing Charge in the Tiger Claw discipline and Time Stands Still in the Diamond Mind discipline. Yes, a TWF Swordsage can be very effective.
Seef 10-08-06, 07:35 PM	What kind of feats would you guys suggest? TWF and ITWF is an obvious given. I'm thinking about getting Stormguard Warrior, but it would be kind of hard with the SSage because it doesn't have Ironheart manuvers available. I'm thinking that burning 3 feats(2 martial study and Ironheart aura) isn't worth it overall. I'm also playing around with whether or not I wanna center this around a lot of attacks that crit. It's hard to fit all this in with a straight SSage because all the ideas require lots of feats. But yea...any ideas?
X-Codes 10-08-06, 07:56 PM	Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade are obvious. The problem is that most of the other feats in this book are easier/better with THF except for Stormguard Warrior.
GaffeR 10-08-06, 08:05 PM	It is ok with SS 20, but I dipped Fighter 2, Warblade, and Bloodclaw Master. However, you'll probably want to skip Stomguard Warrior. 3 feats to qualify is TOO many. Human Swordsage 20: 1. Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade, (WF: Shadow Hand) 3. Weapon Finesse 6. TWF 9. Gloom Razor/ITWF (BAB's a bit low for ITWF here) 12. ITWF/Gloom Razor 15. GTWF 18. Free I'd suggest not focusing on crits, as the Shadow hand weapons don't go past 19-20x2. I also agree with X-Codes' maneuvers. I'd work for Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still, the various Flame blades (low is fine, I think the damage comes from the +1 per IL, not the dice). Assassin's stance can help out with more damage, but I like the synergy of Child of Shadows + Gloom Razor. Anyways, other than a bit of BAB and no Stormguard, a pure Swordsage TWFer can kick a whole lot of ass. Not to mention it has more versatility than the Warblade, and it's cooler. :D
Seef 10-08-06, 08:14 PM	How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing).
creepy drifter 10-08-06, 08:19 PM	I can't see the GTWF feat being to valuable in this build. That's pretty much true for most TWF builds as well (unless they can get close to a final BAB of +20 plus maybe stuff like +X Combat Sense from Knight of the Middle Circle thrown in).
X-Codes 10-08-06, 08:23 PM	How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing). Shadow Slip makes it really easy to move 10' as a free action, which gives you concealment a'la Child of Shadow. One ability of the Gloom Razor feat triggers if your opponent misses from concealment, then on your turn you get to make a hide check opposed by their spot as a free action to become invisible. In turn, it becomes really easy for you to move 10' and flank with an ally and hit your opponent, which triggers Shadow Slip the next turn, with which you can easily move 10' and get the concealment bonus from Child of Shadow. Even if you aren't missed because of Concealment, you can still make your opponent flat-footed for one attack as long as you keep moving 10' each turn, which is a free action with Shadow Slip. It just keeps going on and on and on. You end up with concealment the whole time and your opponent is flat-footed against at least one attack each round (which lets you use any number of Shadow Hand manuvers).
GaffeR 10-08-06, 08:26 PM	How does the Gloom razor and Child of Shadows synergy work? I'm fairly new with ToB so I'm not too sure how that would work. And thanks for fixing my goof up, you can take GTWF, the BAB is +11 (gahh my n00b is showing). Shadow slip: Hit flanked opponent, make tumble check, move as a free action (at least 10 feat), trigger Child of shadows! Yay! Moving Shadows: move at least 10 feat (Shadow slipped), next turn = flat footed! Huzzah! Unload with a nasty Shadow hand maneuver Lingering Gloom: We're still concealed thanks to shadow slip, if he misses us, we get to go invisible! It's a really great feat. Admittedly, island of blades would help to get that first shadow slip off. I'm not sure which stance I like better for this feat. Edit: Curse you X-Codes!
Seef 10-08-06, 08:30 PM	I think it might. Assuming at lvl 15 your gonna have some 2 Martial Discipline weapons with probably Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. That's at least +3 to hit for each hand, and when using manuvers for each itll give at least +7 to hit. This will def help even out the penalty for the 3rd hit. And that extra attack will translate into 2 xtra with time stand still and with with your desert wind blade manuvers, that can be all the more damage. Idk, that's how I see it, and I'd want it in the build anyway
Seef 10-08-06, 08:36 PM	Ahhhh ok I get ya... That's quite the nifty little trick. Question about the Moving Shadows tactic with the feat, Can you move 10 feet and then attack to make the person flatfooted? It says you must deal damage with a melee attack and move 10 feet. I'm assuming you can through RAW but I'm just making sure.
GaffeR 10-08-06, 08:36 PM	I'd also want GTWF in there. You attack pattern with nothin but BAB would be: 13/13/8/8/3/3 Without TWF its: 15/10/5 Might as well stick it in there.
X-Codes 10-08-06, 08:47 PM	Edit: Curse you X-Codes! Payback's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=716557) a *****. :P Yes, so long as you move 10' and attack in the same round you get to use Moving Shadows on your next turn.
GaffeR 10-08-06, 08:53 PM	Payback's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=716557) a *****. :P :rofl: I guess I did have that one comin'. You best watch your back, though! :P
Wire 10-08-06, 08:59 PM	I'd also want GTWF in there. You attack pattern with nothin but BAB would be: 13/13/8/8/3/3 Without TWF its: 15/10/5 Might as well stick it in there.I think the prior poster was saying stop at ITWF, but can the GTWF feat. I tend to agree. The odds of the GTWF granted attacks hitting (in play experience) are extremely rare.
GaffeR 10-08-06, 09:03 PM	I think the prior poster was saying stop at ITWF, but can the GTWF feat. I tend to agree. The odds of the GTWF granted attacks hitting (in play experience) are extremely rare. ITWF yes, GTWF, no is what I got out of it. True, the attack bonus is a bit low, but there are many ways to negate a lot of armor with a Sworsage. Also, the martial discipline weapons make up a lot of it. Like I said, I'd still stick it in my build.
FriendlyFrog 10-09-06, 03:56 AM	ITWF yes, GTWF, no is what I got out of it. True, the attack bonus is a bit low, but there are many ways to negate a lot of armor with a Sworsage. Also, the martial discipline weapons make up a lot of it. Like I said, I'd still stick it in my build. As Swordsages also have lots of ways to make the enemy lose their dexterity bonus to AC, hitting isn't always that hard, really. And it's not as if having the feat hurts you in some way, if you can afford a feat for it (though as Swordsages can eat lots of feats, it's possible that you can't).
Seef 10-09-06, 11:57 AM	Well here's the build that I put together with the advice you guys gave me. Critique the as much as you like (There's probably a lot of stuff I'm overlooking). So yea...Thanks again!!! Human Feats 1 SSage- Weapon Focus (Shadowhand), Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style 3 SSage – TWF/Wep Finesse 6 SSage – Wep Finesse/TWF 9 SSage- Gloom Razor 12 SSage- ITWF 15 SSage- GTWF 18 SSage- Free Feat… Maneuvers + Stances (In italics) 1 SSage- Burning Blade(DW), Sapphire Nightmare Blade(DM), Wolf Fang Strike(TC), Sudden Leap(TC), Clinging Shadow Strike(SH), Shadow Blade Technique(SH), Child of the Shadows(SH) 2 SSage – Distracting Ember(DW), Stance of Clarity(DM) 3 SSage – Rabid Wolf Strike(TC) 4 SSage- Switch Wolf Fang Strike w/ Claw at the Moon(TC), Fire Riposte(DW) 5 SSage- Assassin’s Stance(SH), Death Mark(DW) 6 SSage – Switch Distracting Ember w/ Shadow Garrote(SH), Mind over Body(DM) 7 SSage – Searing Blade(DW) 8 SSage – Replace Clinging Shadow Strike w/ Ruby Nightmare Blade(DM), Obscuring Shadow Veil(SH) 9 SSage- Dancing Mongoose(TC), Hearing the Air(DM) 10 SSage- Switch Sudden Leap w/ Pouncing Charge(TC), Shadow Stride(SH) 11 SSage- Moment of Alacrity(DM) 12 SSage- Rabid Bear Strike(TC) switch with Rabid Wolf Strike, Shadow Noose(SH) 13 SSage- Quick Silver Motion(DM) 14 SSage- Inferno Blade(DW) switch with Searing Blade, Death in the Dark(SH), Fiery Assault(DW) 15 SSage- Raging Mongoose(TC) 16 SSage- Replace Dancing Mongoose w/ Girallon Flesh Rip, Diamond Nightmare Blade(DM) 17 SSage-Time Stands Still(DM) 18 SSage- Replace Shadowblade Technique w/5-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike(SH), Feral Death Blow(TC) 19 SSage- Enervating Shadow Strike(SH) 20 SSage- Rising Phoenix(DW), Switch Sapphire Nightmare Blade w/ Inferno Blast And once again, I need some critique, mainly on the manuvers I'm choosing and what I'm switching in and out. So yea...
Seef 10-09-06, 01:27 PM	bump...
Campbell55 10-15-06, 11:56 AM	Guys...why always finesse?? Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons look at the SS....90% simple weapons
LiamDeclan 10-15-06, 12:05 PM	Guys...why always finesse?? Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons look at the SS....90% simple weapons Do you mean Insightful Strike at 4th level SS ? That is only for damage and only with strikes from that discipline.
ff6shadow 10-15-06, 12:15 PM	No, I beleive he's refering to a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds
jedrious 10-15-06, 12:15 PM	Do you mean Insightful Strike at 4th level SS ? That is only for damage and only with strikes from that discipline. no intuitive strike an EXALTED feat that lets you use wis to attack on all simple weapons
FriendlyFrog 10-15-06, 12:23 PM	Guys...why always finesse?? Intuitive strike Wis mod to hit rather than STR for all simple weapons Perhaps because every build using light weapons also uses two-weapon fighting, which requires a high dexterity. Almost every such Swordsage has a lot higher dexterity than wisdom. And Shadow blade works always, unlike the Insightful strike ability that works only when using strikes.