Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Relic 10-15-05, 12:48 AM	I was sitting around today thinking about what I would want to play in an upcoming campaign. I came to the conclusion that it would be really fun to play a grappler. When I was thumbing through my books, it looks like grapplers more or less get the shaft damage-wise. If anybody wants to lend me a hand in making a rough outline for this character, I would be extremely grateful. Right now, I was thinking about a Human Monk, although I'm not dedicated to it, I just want a good brawler-type. For the first level of monk, I'll get Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Grapple. The Human bonus feat would be Clever Wrestling. Somewhere down the line I'll take Earth's Embrace. I definitely want to take full Reaping Mauler progression. Other than that, I'm more or less out of good ideas. Choke Hold from Oriental Adventures is a great feat, is there a 3.5 update to it somewhere? If not, the DM will probably let me use the 3.0 one. I looked around for a build on grapplers, but came up empty-handed. If there is one, I'm sure that a link to that would more than answer any questions I have. Otherwise, anybody up to the challenge: show me the path to decent grappling, please. Thank you.
neilthrun 10-15-05, 01:15 AM	Monk is lame! Not only will you have to focus on your wisdom and dex, since your going to be a grappler you need high strength. And since your going to get hit alot you need alot of hp. something a monk won't have. So I'd scrap monk. Barbarian on the other hand is a great way to go. If your DM lets you the Bear Totem variant in UA is great for grapplers. But ill give you a build with out that. This is actually something I played, although only to fourth level where the campaign ended. Fighter1-Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple,Earths Embrace Fighter2-Power Attack Barbarian1-Extra Rage Barbarian2 Barbarian3 Gladiator-Clever Wrestling Reaping Mauler1 Reaping Mauler2 Reaping Mauler3-Flying Kick Reaping Mauler4 thats about All I had planned out.
PhaedrusXY 10-15-05, 01:40 AM	Check out the Half-Orc Paragon Monk and the "Tripping, charging, raging, flurrying, grappling monk" links in my sig. They are both grapplers with Rage, high hit points, high BAB, and no focus on Wisdom at all. The psionic half-orc monk is the best one overall, but really doesn't shine until the upper levels. Edit: Nevermind, the psionic one does have to have wisdom for his powers. It is late... The one based on monk6/shou5 can ignore wisdom if you choose, though.
fnord 10-15-05, 01:54 AM	Even with clever wrestling, be aware that grappling with large monsters is extremely difficult. Depending on what you have access to, it's possible, but still difficult. Make sure to consider what you're going to do when you face up against a Fiendish Dire Elephant and can't grapple effectively.
The Relic 10-15-05, 01:54 AM	Awesome. Thanks to both of you. Edit: All three of you.
Tempest Stormwind 10-15-05, 02:09 AM	See page 4 (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=345741&page=4&pp=30) for an alternative. What's more, you still end up with lots of bonus feats (more than the monk, and as many as the fighter at low levels), and it's surprisingly low-maintenance and early-starting. And you should look into OA for a few really interesting grappling feats. Some were updated in CW (like Earth's Embrace) but others remain, including ones that aren't specifically grappling but fit thematically (Great Throw -- note that this appeared in the OA errata, not OA itself, although it's mentioned there) or help level the playing field (Grappling Block or Defensive Throw). Note that you can often get great WIS synergy going this route, and it doesn't preclude Reaping Mauler (which also gets decent Wis synergy).
Surreal 10-15-05, 03:03 AM	From a completely different starting point, wildshaping druids probably make the best grapplers. Straight druids work well, or druid/monk even, there's the Master of Many Forms route, and also the Daggerspell Shaper with Savage Grapple.
Elephant Jack 10-15-05, 07:17 AM	Hi! For grappling I'd go for Druid (perhaps the best grappler), Psychic Warrior (due to Fist of Iron & Expansion) or Justicar ("instant"-helpless opponents). Try: Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Ranger 1/Justicar 5/Warmind 9 or Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Ranger 1/Justicar 8/Warmind 6 You've got many feats, good BAB, can survive the early levels quite good (without grappling) and you will be a manace to everything at later levels. Try to get some "antimagic"-magic in item-form so no Freedom of Movement or Shapechange can ruin your day! Once you've hog-tied your opponent, it takes only a full-round action (or a standard-action with Death Blow) to finish him off (usually). Have fun with it! EJ
Ander Spectacular 10-15-05, 07:57 AM	I wouldn't waste feats on clever wrestling or earth's embrace, they are both pretty crappy. What makes a grappler is size. You need to focus on being larger and larger. Low levels its simple, Enlarge Person. I believe an enlarge person spell would give a +5 on grapple checks(4 size, 1 str). Druidic Avenger is a fabulous grappler. Reaping Mauler...well, i doubt it would help much, you get improved grapple and mobility(yippee!) which i suppose is nice, but the sleeper hold and death hold features are not super useful in a non-wisdom focused build. Perhaps reaping mauler would work well with druid, Monk2/Druid8/Reaping Mauler5/ as a start. I would definitely be wary of monk, though, they have numerous disadvantages in grappling(lower BAB, lower str, lower hp). Druids are incredible grapplers, as are barbarian/bear warriors. -AS-
Elephant Jack 10-15-05, 08:16 AM	Doesn't the Reaping Mauler loose all his class features if he gets smaller then small or larger then medium? EJ
AramilWindwalker 10-15-05, 09:57 AM	if you are willing to be within one step of bahamut's alignment, and "waste" a feat, you can get gauntlet of the talon, for a measely 20000, it gives you +4 on grapple checks, makes your fists(and therefore grapples) ghost touch, adds +5 to the level of monk to determine damage and ac, and they can be considered slashing weapons at your option. and you use your monk damage with the attacks you make with it, stacks with monk's belt for extra cheese. fun, i think so
The Relic 10-15-05, 10:51 AM	Holy...wow. You guys are amazing. I never would have thought of any of this. While I understood the concept behind most of it, I will have to to a little reading on Justicar and Warmind. Good thing I'm not doing much today, heh. I really appreciate the help.
Bonzai 10-15-05, 11:02 AM	I had a cohort for my Sorc 5/Bloodmage 10/fleshwarper 5 build, and he was a a Barbarian/reaping Mauler. The fun thing in that build were the grafts that were put on him. Undead grafts are realatively inexpensive, and can be nice for a grappler. The +4 str weakening touch arms in particular are great. Vampire fangs for a bite attack while grappling, Morge tounge to paralyze your prey. All the Sithilar grafts are great, particularly the +5 natural armor. Reaping mauler is a great class as it nullifies the lack of damage they do. Pin them for three rounds, and their dead. Hmm... If I could do it again... a Druegar with their racial enlarge ability could be interesting.
Pinky's brain 10-15-05, 11:12 AM	How about half-orc paragon 3/monk 4/bearwarrior 5/justiciar 8 with a set of manacles with the opposeable weapon special ability? :) Especially good if you can get a druid to animal growth you ... pity you will have to wait till level 20 for improved hogtie, unless you go straight into justiciar after bearwarrior 1.
matbot 10-15-05, 04:45 PM	Anyone have some nice barb / bear warrior grappling builds? Edit: Or how about some feat suggestions for a human something like this: Barb 2 / Fighter 4 / Bear warrior 10 / Warshaper 4 Improved grapple, Improved Natural attack: bite (or maybe claws?) :P
itliaf 10-15-05, 05:41 PM	a friend of mind played a psychic warrior ?/fighter ?/reaping mauler who used expansion to great effect and generally got the job done quite handily. I don't know what his build was, though. I would imagine the more psychic warrior, the better, since i believe at higher levels of expansion you can become huge.
Gloverboy 10-15-05, 11:41 PM	yeah, the psywar also has a power or two that gives a directo bonus to grapple. I forget what they were. I've worked on the Grappler build too, although I've nothing complete to show for it yet. A Jerren Flesheater grappler with armor with +5 spikes, and I applied a Strentgh poison to the spikes, so the enemy is much less able to fight you off, so you can pull the 3 or 5 rounds the Mauler needs. One other idea is the Feral template. If I remember right, one of the abilities lets you grapple after an attack, right? Feral, is there anything it cant do...other than sing "Puttin on the Ritz"? Edit: I think thats called Improved grab. Way to go, genius.
Elephant Jack 10-17-05, 10:33 AM	Hi again! I really can't recommend the reaping mauler... the greatest problem with this class is the Clever Wrestling feat requirement. If you're bigger then medium, you lose the Clever Wrestling feat - RAW this could mean that you lose the Reaping Maulers class features. If you really wan't to go for the Reaping Mauler, I'd try this route: Level 12 char Goliath (LA +1, RoS) Swashbuckler 1/Bear Totem Barbarian 5 (UA)/Reaping Mauler 5 Abilities (28 pt.) -Str 24 [+7] (10 pt.) +4 racial, +2 enhancement, +2 lvl increase -Dex 10 [+0] (04 pt.) -2 racial -Con 14 [+2] (06 pt.) +2 racial -Int 10 [+0] (02 pt.) -Wis 14 [+2] (06 pt.) -Cha 08 [-1] (00 pt.) BAB: +11 Feats: -HD1 - Skill Knowledge (Tumble/Escape Artist) (UA) -Swa1 - Weapon Finesse -Brb1 - Toughness -HD3 - Improved Unarmed Strike -Brb2 - Improved Grapple -Brb3 - Great Fortitude -HD6 - Clever Wrestling -RMa1 - Mobility -HD9 - True Believer (Kord) Equipment (88,000 gp) -Gauntlets of Ogre Power (4,000 gp) -Armbands of Might (CV) (4,100 gp) -Belt of Champions (CD) (22,000 gp) -Spiked Mithral Breastplate +1 (37,250 gp) -Vicious collision oversized (huge) armor spikes +1 Raging damage while grappling (armor spikes) 2d6(base)+9(Str)+5(collision)+1(enhancem ent)+2d6(vicious) = 4d6+15 Grapple (raging): +11(base attack)+4(powerful build)+9(Str)+4(bear totem)+4(Improved Grapple)+2(adept wrestler)+2(armbands of might)+10(belt of champions*) Total: +46 *if i remember right: +6 on str related checks and additional +4 on grapple checks If you run out of rages/day, just grab a vicious looking greataxe or so and attack with it + armor spikes as off-hand weapons (your attack bonus will be quite low, but the damage output ridiculous). I guess this can be done better, but this is what I suggest. EJ
solbergb 10-17-05, 11:06 AM	Just a comment. You do not want to be a one-trick pony. Being a decent grappler is a good arrow to have in your quiver, but if it is the only one you will be unhappy when you run into: Freedom of movement Blinking enemies CR+1/4 hit die monsters that are also very large and strong The latter is the main reason why grappling becomes less effective overall at higher levels...grapple as a tactic remains effective against humanoid-classed opponents pretty much forever barring the defensive-spell countermeasures. Fortunately the key to grappling (big, strong, high BAB) is also helpful in other areas. Big+strong = good tripper, strong+high BAB = good power attacker etc. Give yourself some other options. Monks, by the way, are decent grapplers mainly because the opportunity cost to become a grappler for them is very low. They don't have the best BAB, but they should have a decent strength and the mobility to get to the weakest enemy grappler and crush him is helpful. The main thing is though that it only costs zero or 1 feat to be a grappler if you're a monk, whereas for any other character it costs two feats.
hogarth 10-17-05, 11:24 AM	Hi! Try: Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Ranger 1/Justicar 5/Warmind 9 or Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Ranger 1/Justicar 8/Warmind 6 EJ Note: in the builds above, you would need to take at least one War Mind level before the Justiciar levels in order to meet the Justiciar's +6 BAB requirement and the 7 (cross-class) levels needed for 5 ranks in Gather Information.
Tweedledope 10-17-05, 11:37 AM	Hmm...you need Jotunbrund. It's a feat from Player's Guide to Faerun. If you have access to it (must be taken at level 1) it treats you as Large size for the purposes of grapples, trips, bull rushes, etc. Very nice for grappling builds. -=TD=-
Tempest Stormwind 10-17-05, 11:43 AM	Note: in the builds above, you would need to take at least one War Mind level before the Justiciar levels in order to meet the Justiciar's +6 BAB requirement and the 7 (cross-class) levels needed for 5 ranks in Gather Information. If you do the Urban Ranger vairiant, then you have Gather Info as a class skill. You probably should.
monkmania 10-17-05, 11:50 AM	if you've got extra feats, take a look at lords of madness. there are abberant feats that add to your grapple: Aberrant Blood (Flexible Lims = +2 Grapple) Deep Spawn (Gain tentacles that do 1d4 + STR damage and +2 to grapple.)
hogarth 10-17-05, 12:28 PM	If you do the Urban Ranger vairiant, then you have Gather Info as a class skill. You probably should. However, the Urban Ranger doesn't have Survival as a class skill (which is also required by Justiciar).
cyberpunks 10-17-05, 03:49 PM	Leviathan Hunter from Stormwrack allows you to get Clever Werstling even if you're large.
RadicalTaoist 10-17-05, 04:13 PM	See page 4 (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=345741&page=4&pp=30) for an alternative. What's more, you still end up with lots of bonus feats (more than the monk, and as many as the fighter at low levels), and it's surprisingly low-maintenance and early-starting. And you should look into OA for a few really interesting grappling feats. Some were updated in CW (like Earth's Embrace) but others remain, including ones that aren't specifically grappling but fit thematically (Great Throw -- note that this appeared in the OA errata, not OA itself, although it's mentioned there) or help level the playing field (Grappling Block or Defensive Throw). Note that you can often get great WIS synergy going this route, and it doesn't preclude Reaping Mauler (which also gets decent Wis synergy). Glad to see I was linked. I wonder where the original thread we discussed it in went... On the off hand, the Girallon Arms from Magic of Incarnum grant a competence bonus to grapple checks.
Khazra Reborn 10-17-05, 04:22 PM	My grapple build: magic blooded human marshal1/cleric7/chamelon10/warshaper2 divine & arcane focus mimic SA & rage ability boons +6 cha & str Feats: 1.able learner, otherworldly 3.improved unarmed strike 6.improved grapple 9.divine metamagic 12.persitant spell 15. 18. Buy some nightsticks (always a good start), +6 enhance cha,+5inherit,+5inherit str items. Follwing spells persitant: divine power righteous might greater apect of the deity max out cha to 38, spend all your level 6 arcane spell slots on draconic polymorph (pit fiend). Your grapple bonus is: BaB20 +30(str) +14(cha) +4(improved grapple) +4(improved grab) +8(size) =+80 Tommorow ill include a tarraque grappler but i dont have enough time right now (my record stands at 98 IIRC)...speaking of which, you could always use punpun :rolleyes:
cvazi 10-17-05, 04:42 PM	IIRC, Mauling Gauntlets (Soulborn's Soulmeld) grants a higher competence bonus than girillion's arms. If you bind it to your hand chakra, it gives you Improved Unarmed Strike. This build will give you lots of versitility AND give you absurd Grapples when you need it. Human: Totemist2/Incarnate3/Slayer1/Warmind10/slayer2-5 Feats: Wild/Hidden Talent, Track, Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets, Extra Essentia, Least Chakra Bind (Hands), EK: Schism, EK Metamorphosis, Abberant Trait: Flexible Limbs Without Equipment: Grapple Check: 61 + Str=2(unnamed, Flexible Limbs) + 4 (Unnamed, Improved Grapple, Bound Gauntlets) + 12(Competence, Mauling Gauntlets) + 10 (Enhancement, Grips of Iron) + 16 (Size, Metamorphosize to a Huge Creature, Expansion x2) + 17 BAB + Str Mod (Shape + 4 Warmind + 4 Expansionx2)
RadicalTaoist 10-17-05, 05:49 PM	IIRC, Mauling Gauntlets (Soulborn's Soulmeld) grants a higher competence bonus than girillion's arms. If you bind it to your hand chakra, it gives you Improved Unarmed Strike. What I like about Mauling Gauntlets is their morale bonus to unarmed damage. Combine it with, say, Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries and maybe Warmind or Psychic Warrior, and you could have the monkless monk.
nnnnn 10-17-05, 05:57 PM	My Dm does not allow blood lines, etc., we're basically only using standard refs like PH, CW, etc. Here's what I planned for a monk/psy war gestalt. The previous post about not being a one-trick pony is key. Gotta have options. So my secondary focus is tripping. 1st level: stunning fist (monk) flurry (monk) improved unarmed strike (human) improved grapple (psy war) improved initiative (general) psi power: expansion (for size bonus) 2nd lvl: combat reflexex (monk) evasion (monk) choke hold (psy war) psi power: vigor 3rd level: Still mind (monk) pain touch (general) psi power: iron grip 4th level: ki strike psi power: inertial armor 5th level: warrior sense (psy warrior) purity of body (monk) 6th level: improved trip (monk) defensive throw (genreral) psi power: hustle By sixth level he can achieve a grapple check (when enlarged ) of +8 + Str bonus (which is an additional +2 when enlarged) He can trip better and has lots of AoOs for tripping, which lets him grapple easier once you're down. He also has improved initiative and warrior sense for action first, which lets him grapple the opposing spellcaster/psionic before he can even get a spell/power off. It's well rounded because he's got stunning fist and tripping ability to go with it. His weapon is obviuosly a kama for tripping. If he trips, he can flurry while the opp. is down, then trip or grapple as an AoO when the opponet gets up. Choke hold is simpy awesome. pin for one round, then Coup de Gras. Beautiful. nnnnn
nnnnn 10-17-05, 06:01 PM	Has anyone had success playing grapplers? Please share. What worked? What didnt? nnnnn
MysteryGilgamesh 10-17-05, 06:02 PM	A grappler is pretty easy to make. Choice races include human with the Jotunbrud feat (from Races of Faerun), a goliath (Races of Stone), or a half giant (Expanded Psionic's Handbook). I'd probably go for the goliath or half giant though, if you're doing LA buyoff, as they definatly work better for this than a human. Next, you'll want a good weapon for grappling, because one exists...The Scorpion Claw! An exotic weapon from Sandstorm, which gives a hefty bonus to grappling. From there, the build is simple enough: Fighter 2 or 4 (depends how many feats you want)/Barbarian 1 or 3 (depends how many fighter levels you take)/Reaping Mauler 5 is a great base to build upon. As for playing a grappler, it's pretty simple. Just run in, and grapple. However, be on the lookout for Rogue's, as they will have a party on you while you're stuck in a grapple. Try to avoid grappling in situations where you could easily be surrounded, as well. Also, try to go for any spellcasters first, because you'll be garunteed to rip them apart if you can reach them. Ideally, you'll want the party spellcaster to buff you with a size increasing spell, and a flight spell to take care of those pesky flying targets.
Skulan 10-17-05, 06:12 PM	Reaping Mauler annoys me. It requires Clever Wrestling, which brings up the whole "get big, lose the class abilities" issue that people have mentioned. Then there's Mobility, a feature that gives you a +4 to AC against that attack of opportunity... that Improved Grapple negates nearly all the time. But my biggest beef is that a class designed for a character focused on grappling assumes the character didn't bother to take Improved Grapple. I mean, you already have to have Clever Wrestling, so that means you've taken Improved Unarmed Strike, which is pretty lousy if you don't go the monk route. So, in essence, you either waste a feat, or wait until 6th level to actually get good at what you're supposed to be doing. And then the whole class, and the tactic it entails, is negated by one magic item. I apologize for ranting. I enjoy grapplers, but Reaping Mauler really could have used Improved Grapple as a prerequisite, and maybe a supernatural ability to ignore Freedom of Movement. As it stands, it's kind of lousy for a grappler played from level 1. -Skulan
PhaedrusXY 10-17-05, 07:20 PM	Has anyone had success playing grapplers? Please share. What worked? What didnt? nnnnnI played an earlier version of the build in my sig with the long-assed name (Tripping, Raging, Grappling, etc monk). It was a while back. I think the game went from level 10 to 15 or so. I had alot of fun playing him and was quite successful. One of the main duties I had was to grapple and incapacitate the fullblade-wielding fighter-type if he failed a Will save vs. Confusion or something, lol. That guy killed at least one party member because of that. My character had great saves all around and hardly ever failed that kind of thing, and he could incapacitate his fellow party members without killing them if he needed to. He was also a good fighter in his own right, even without grappling. I agree with the sentiment that you should build a character that is good at more than just grappling, because you can't grapple everything, and sometimes you won't want to grapple. So make sure you have other combat options that you're at least decent at. I really like a couple levels of monk as an intro to a grappler build, because it basically gets you all the basic stuff you need to be a grappler for "free", and you get other good benefits from it like a bonus to all your saves, etc. As long as you don't go above 4th level, you only lose 1 point of BAB, and d8 isn't exactly a bad hit die. Again, if you don't go above 4th level in monk, you're only "losing" 4 hit points compared to a fighter, or 8 compared to a barbarian (on average). Edit: Oh yeah, the party rogue also loved me. ;)
solbergb 10-17-05, 07:29 PM	Has anyone had success playing grapplers? Please share. What worked? What didnt? nnnnn My grappling monk is a very simple build. High str, moderate int, dex, con, dumped wisdom and charisma. Most folks would swap int and wis on my build, but I wanted to avoid the temptation to bother with AC or stunning fist, and I wanted a lot of skill points. Monk 1-10 so far, intends to go monk 1-12, then wiz1 then undecided for the last couple levels before retirement, but probably something that adds feats rather than spells. Feats are imp grapple (monk bonus, so my dex can drop low and I can still grapple), imp trip (monk bonus, I don't have combat expertise), close quarters combat on the tactical side, combat reflexes, hold the line make both the grapple and trip better and deflect arrows is there just for fun and to help a little with the low AC. Sun School martial arts allows a dim-door/grapple at 12. I'll also have a save reroll feat to round out the magical defenses. What works (and note, this is a cleric-bab build with no rage - more focused grapplers might set their sights higher, but mostly they'll just have a higher success percentage in the same categories - the gap between grappleable and ungrappleable is larger than easy optimization covers) If it is medium sized or smaller I can grapple it. If it is medium sized and looks like a fighter or barbarian, I trip it before I grapple it for an additional +4 to the check. If it is size large but not "known to be strong" either in hit dice or raw strength, I can grapple it even if not enlarged, and usually dominate when enlarged. If "known to be strong" and size large, I can "dance" with it (can't guarantee a grapple win, but can keep it busy for a long time with grapple, trip and escape attempts, while it rarely gets to use its best attacks against me). If it is size huge, I usually don't bother grappling even if I'm enlarged unless it is something like a construct or animated object which has crap BAB for its hit dice, and/or low strength. After level 7ish, spellcasters start to have counters to grappling. Many can be shut down by the simple expedient of getting a silence tossed on you before you grapple. Tripping before grappling is good, because even if they have freedom of movement, you can keep them within flurry of blows range. You have to pick your targets. You have to have other stuff to do than grapple if your targets just can't be grappled. Most importantly, you have to understand that grapple doesn't kill things - it is very slow. Grapple locks down an enemy until your teammates have the luxury to kill him. Thus it can work even if you are "losing" the grapple, once it has been established..if the enemy is wrestling with you and trying to kill you in a clinch, he's not bothering anybody else. (in a related vein, if the spellcasters are burning spells and actions to get free, or directing all their attention at you because you scared them, it doesn't matter if the grapple actually worked, you've achieved the goal). Spellcasters hate grapplers, so good saves are recommended. Reaping Mauler is not a good grappling class. Done.
X-Codes 10-17-05, 10:07 PM	Reaping Mauler is actually a decent grappling class, but Monk is very not. The interesting thing about all these big monsters with high HD is that more often than not they have 3/4 or even 1/2 BAB. This significantly reduces their grapple checks in comparison to a Fighter of equal level, and if said Fighter takes Improved Grapple, then he gets an even higher advantage. A Fire Giant for example is only CR 10 with a +25 grapple modifier. A 10th-level fighter with Improved Grapple and 26 strength (not hard for a dedicated grappler) has a +22 grapple modifier. A 10th-level Bear Warrior/Barbarian has a +26 grapple modifier while in a rage. A Cloud Giant is CR 11 with a +32 grapple mod, which is very difficult at that level (the Bear Warrior only having a +27). One more level, however, and the Bear Warrior achieves a +36 grapple mod. Grappling Dragons and Tarrasques is clearly out of the question, but just about everything else is fair game, even high-end fiends (Despite their full BAB, they are generally not larget than Large).
solbergb 10-17-05, 10:41 PM	Reaping Mauler is actually a decent grappling class, but Monk is very not. The interesting thing about all these big monsters with high HD is that more often than not they have 3/4 or even 1/2 BAB. This significantly reduces their grapple checks in comparison to a Fighter of equal level, and if said Fighter takes Improved Grapple, then he gets an even higher advantage.. Um...no they don't. Those big strong monsters are +1CR per 3 or 4 hit dice. Which means at a MINIMUM they're getting +2 grapple check per CR, where the fighter gets only +1 and has to make up the rest with strength enhancments. It's very similar to how a 1/3 or 1/4 hit die/cr monster can eventually automatically make most saves even on his "bad" save. Because he's advancing the "bad" save at 1/CR or faster, twice the rate of the spell tiering, which means you have to make it up with attribute or feat boosts, which have limits. Also, to add insult to injury, adding a size category only adds +1CR, but adds +8 to the grapple check. So that brown bear that at 6HD is only grapple check 16, advanced just two CR (10hd, size huge) is now grapple check 27. I doubt very much that your fighter's grapple chekc jumped by 11 between level 6 and level 8. This is why the big strong monsters eventually become not a valid target. At level 1, you can wrestle an ogre and have a chance of success with a strong grapple build. Eventually, the giants can't be wrestled, no matter how tweaked the build is, unless you get PAO to size huge or greater, to even up the odds by getting at least your own size/str even. You'll still be behind on BAB, but feats and enhancment/rage type bonuses to str can even it up some. They eventually just have too many hitdice, plus they're big and strong. They don't need fullbab to outstrip you. CR for CR, the animals and giants and abombinations and magical beasts at 3/4 BAB advance BAB/CR faster than the outsiders with fullBAB.
solbergb 10-17-05, 10:43 PM	Reaping Mauler is actually a decent grappling class, but Monk is very not. If improved grapple was free. And there was no cost to get into Reaping Mauler Then I would agree with you. However monk makes grapple free, and bumps the damage a couple points as an extra added bonus. (versus the usual 2 feat cost) Whereas reaping mauler costs three useless feats (clever wrestling, dodge, mobility). That is why more grapplers out there have monk levels than have reaping mauler levels. Opportunity cost matters. The RM doesn't pay back enough for its cost.
PhaedrusXY 10-17-05, 11:39 PM	solbergb: A size increase of one category only adds +4 to grapple, not +8. And you don't need PAO to become size Huge or larger. Polymorph works just fine, as they got rid of the size limitation in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion. You can become Huge just by using an Augmented Expansion if you're a psionic character. If you're a half-giant with Augmented Expansion, you count as gargantuan, so you can literally grapple anything (as far as size) without being Polymorphed. And with a heavily tweaked build, you can grapple just about anything, including the worst giants, aberrations, great wyrm dragons, and the Tarrasque. Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said. A dip into monk is great for a grappler. A single classed monk isn't the best grappler, but just a few levels gets you alot.
solbergb 10-17-05, 11:51 PM	solbergb: A size increase of one category only adds +4 to grapple, not +8. And you don't need PAO to become size Huge or larger. Polymorph works just fine, as they got rid of the size limitation in the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion. . No, it adds +8, because when you go up a size category, part of the +1CR advancement is +8 to strength and +4 to con etc. Monsters who got big by advancement get +8 to grapple for 1CR by getting bigger. Humans, by contrast, only get +5 when an enlarge person is cast on them. Polymorph inherits the alter self size limits. At least in many campaigns, including the one we both play in (LG). Getting huge ain't easy. Psions and folks with the "Giant Size' spell are better off, but those ain't core and are the kind of thing that get ruled "out of bounds" a lot. Most of the really easy ways to make a character a strong grappler need your DM to explicitly allow it ("powerful build" races, oriental-flavored arcanists, lenient polymorph size interpretations, psionics, custom magic items) Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said. A dip into monk is great for a grappler. A single classed monk isn't the best grappler, but just a few levels gets you alot. Also...you don't have to be the best grappler. Grappling is a stair-step function...with wide gaps between the various levels of capability. The kinds of stuff I can grapple at level 1 with a monk, I can grapple just fine at level 20. The stuff I have trouble grappling at level 1 (size large and larger) get harder and harder and harder to the point where they become impossible eventually. Optomizing for a bit more bab, a bit more strength delays the trend but doesn't eliminate it. A monk though, has no trouble with any medium size classed opponent of his own level in grappling, as long as he treated strength as a priority in his build. A specialized grappler-warrior type can be a bit better than him, but he can still stalemate such a character long enough for the party to win, because he won't be THAT much better. Someone who managed to mix fullbab or near fullbab with shapeshifting and rage can beat a monk at grappling, but such characters usually end up in animal shapes which are very vulnerable to the flurry. The key though is that grapple is only one arrow in the quiver of a monk, and will seem more effective than it actually is because the monk will only use it when it will work. The rest of the time, he'll do all the other stuff he does.
Khazra Reborn 10-18-05, 01:05 PM	Grappling Dragons and Tarrasques is clearly out of the question, but just about everything else is fair game, even high-end fiends (Despite their full BAB, they are generally not larget than Large). That sounds like a challenge to me...although i'd like to point out that a very quick builld i posted earlier achieved a +80 grapple bonus, compared to the tarrsques +82. Hmmm, im sure over 100 is possible, im also sure that the chameleon is what gets you there. magic blooded permenatly enlarged human marshal4/cleric1/chamelon10/warshaper2/warhulk3 divine & arcane focus mimic SA & rage ability boons +6 cha & str Feats: 1.able learner, otherworldly 3.improved unarmed strike 6.improved grapple 9.divine metamagic 12.persitant spell 15.true believer 18. Buy some nightsticks (always a good start), +6 enhance cha,+5inherit,+5inherit str items. Follwing spells persitant: divine power righteous might greater apect of the deity max out cha to 40, spend all your level 6 arcane spell slots on draconic polymorph (titan). Thanks to being large size as your base you can polymorph into huge creatures. Your grapple bonus is: BaB20 +35(str) +15(cha) +4(improved grapple) +12(size) +5 (gloves of fearsome grip) +1(str domain) +4(belt of kord) =+96....so damn close!
matbot 10-18-05, 03:03 PM	That sounds like a challenge to me...although i'd like to point out that a very quick builld i posted earlier achieved a +80 grapple bonus, compared to the tarrsques +82. Hmmm, im sure over 100 is possible, im also sure that the chameleon is what gets you there. magic blooded permenatly enlarged human marshal4/cleric1/chamelon10/warshaper2/warhulk3 divine & arcane focus mimic SA & rage ability boons +6 cha & str Feats: 1.able learner, otherworldly 3.improved unarmed strike 6.improved grapple 9.divine metamagic 12.persitant spell 15.true believer 18. Buy some nightsticks (always a good start), +6 enhance cha,+5inherit,+5inherit str items. Follwing spells persitant: divine power righteous might greater apect of the deity max out cha to 40, spend all your level 6 arcane spell slots on draconic polymorph (titan). Thanks to being large size as your base you can polymorph into huge creatures. Your grapple bonus is: BaB20 +35(str) +15(cha) +4(improved grapple) +12(size) +5 (gloves of fearsome grip) +1(str domain) +4(belt of kord) =+96....so damn close! How about some gloves of titan grip (XPH) for a +8 bonus to grapple?
Khazra Reborn 10-18-05, 03:31 PM	ok, i can add them...but gloves of fearsome grip are also enhancement so the net increase is 3, making my grapple check +99, so close it hurts :weep:
Skulan 10-18-05, 03:39 PM	Well, you couldn't wear two pairs of gloves anyway. But that's darned close. Hm... seems like psionics might get us closer. Seems like an Egoist could take Expanded Knowledge to get Expansion, then use Greater Metamorphosis to become a nice big creature, then augment Expansion on top of that. Bab becomes a problem at that point, though. -Skulan
Khazra Reborn 10-18-05, 03:55 PM	that gives me an idea...the chameleon can cast from any divine spelllist...so technically can't i cast giant size using the OA shama spell-list?
RadicalTaoist 10-18-05, 04:34 PM	that gives me an idea...the chameleon can cast from any divine spelllist...so technically can't i cast giant size using the OA shama spell-list? Just be an Archivist at that point......
Elephant Jack 10-19-05, 05:49 AM	ok, i can add them...but gloves of fearsome grip are also enhancement so the net increase is 3, making my grapple check +99, so close it hurts Mh, you've got an open feat slot... just take Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) and gain +2 unnamed to grapple for +101. Does magic-blooded change your type? You have to be human to take the feat. EJ
waper9 10-19-05, 08:29 AM	Just to give my opinion. You may not be able to grapple a monster, or whatever else later, so being a versatile class like a psychic warrior, egoist/slayer or druid I feel is best. Heck, if you dont wanna do the grapple yourself, druids have the nifty kelpstrand spell from the wizards site. On that note, you can be a psion with astral construct. Warforged artificers can also grapple (this is by carthaz), using persistent fist of stone (complete arcane) wand, battlefist, and monk's belt, to get +6 str for grapples and attacks, not to mention 2d6 + str unarmed damage, and 2 slam attacks at d8. And later you're still an artificer, probably one of the chees-, er best, class in the game.
cyberpunks 10-19-05, 11:06 AM	67 with Psion & Master of Many Forms & LA Buyoff Half-Giant 1 Psion 1 Feats: Education, Alertness 2 Psion 2 3 Psion 3 Feat: Endurance 4 Psion 4 5 Psion 5 Feats: Expanded Knowledge: Expansion 6 Ranger 1 Feat:Overchannel 7 Abolisher 1 8 Master of Many Forms 1 9 Master of Many Forms 2 Feat: Powerful Wildshape 10 Master of Many Forms 3 11 Master of Many Forms 4 12 Master of Many Forms 5 Expanded Knowledge: Grip of Iron 13 Master of Many Forms 6 14 Master of Many Forms 7 15 Master of Many Forms 8 Feat: Improved Unarmed Strike 16 Master of Many Forms 9 17 Master of Many Forms 10 18 Nature's Warrior 1 Feat: Improved Grapple 19 Warshaper 1 20 Warshaper 2 Wild Shape into a Sea Drake (Gargantuan, STR 35), Because of Warshaper you gain strength +4 Equip your Sea Drake Barding of Strength +4. Manifest Animal Affinity(STR) for +4 Overchannel Expansion (1+6pp) to increase your size two steps to Colossal+, and increase your strength by +4. Overchannel Grip of Iron (1+4+4pp) to increase your grapple modifier by +8 Because of Powerful Wildshape, you are counted as being Colossal++ for grappling. Size Bonuses: +24 Colossal++ BAB +11=+7(MoMF)+2(Psion)+2(Nature's Warrior) Strength Bonuses= +18:47=35+4+4+4 Improved Grapple +4 Grip of Iron +8
PhaedrusXY 10-19-05, 11:38 AM	ok, i can add them...but gloves of fearsome grip are also enhancement so the net increase is 3, making my grapple check +99, so close it hurts :weep:I don't see Weapon Focus: Grapple on your feat list. ;) I think it definitely applies to the grapple checks, not the touch attack to initiate a grapple. And it has been debated before, so I'm not really looking to start another debate on the topic. Just making a suggestion.