Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Law 08-19-04, 06:20 AM	Hi guys. I've made the following char, point buy 35, stating at level 7: Str 11 Dex 17 (starts at 16, +1 at level 4) Con 14 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 14 Rogue 5/Assassin 2, human male, NE alignment I dont have my sheets (i'm at work) so i cant list skills but what i really want is an optimal list of feats for this build. I'm going to cast invisiblity a lot, spider climb, use magic device (maxed out) so i'm not against waving my wand or using scrolls, etc. I'm also the trapfinder, lock picker, and general sneak attacker in the party. These are the feats I've taken: Dodge human Mobility 1 Spring Attack 3 Weapon Finesse 6 at level 9, I intend to either take TWF or improved initiative or quick draw (can't make up my mind!) But can anyone recommend different feats for me? Any source book, we have most, I'll just run it past my DM. Feel free to change my existing feats and recommend future feats. Thanks guys! Law
SolitudeSeraph 08-19-04, 07:04 AM	If you read anything about Thief 1, 2, or 3 you would know Garret is supposed to be a Thief and NOT an Assassin/Murderer (and if you play on higher difficulties you can't kill anyone) Garret also never used magic..just potions..and he had gloves that gave spider climb.. In Thief 3 he uses a dagger and in the other two he uses a longsword.... He would also have HiPS (somehow) In Thief 2 he also helps various people (can't remember if he does in Thief 1 or not...been quite a while) and he "saves the world" (albeit against because he HAS to) so most likely his alignment would be TN (but MAYBE it might be NE)
Tarantino 08-19-04, 07:05 AM	double post
Tarantino 08-19-04, 07:08 AM	in the earlier parts especially i definately wouldnt have said garret uses magic, with thief3 its hard to tell :o what have you thought as general combat tactics for this guy? i dont see any weapon listed, but im assuming you are going with some light weapon and spring attacking? personally i find spring attacking a relatively bad choice, with a speed of 30 feet u can only attack in 15 feet to get out as far, which is easily covered by an enemy... as for feats, improved initiative is always a safe bet for a rogue type character, others depend on what you are trying to focus on; iron will might be a good choice, helping your low will save, and it also fits quite well on a garret type char imo if you play a very combat oriented campaign i dunno how good an idea it is with that type of a character; striktly garret always was more of a knock the enemy out or sneak around him kind of guy :) dont have my books with me now, but for a prc i'd say a more sneak or acrobatics orientated prc would fit better than assassin oh and btw that seems to be more than a 35 point buy: 11=3, 2x16=20, 2x14=12, 12=4 which totals in 39 unless iwe miscalculated it :o
Enoch Van Garret 08-19-04, 09:01 AM	I created Garrett as a character in Forgotten Realms and played him from 12th to 21st level in a campaign that lasted more than 18 straight months. Main points of the build were Rogue, Fighter (2 levels for feats and self-defense), Shadowdancer, Dungeon Delver, and Spymaster. My base attack sucked, but my saves were exceptional - Spymaster gets Will save as a fast save, and Dungeon Delver and Fighter boosted my Fort very nicely. My build was focused almost entirely on Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Bluff, Pick Pocket, Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock. I also had Skill Mastery as my 10th-level rogue ability, for Tumble, Hide, Search, and Disable Device. My build focused more on STR and CON than INT and DEX (as I should have) because it was more combat-heavy. For your build, i'll post a better guideline soon - watch this post.
The Law 08-19-04, 09:02 AM	Originally posted by SolitudeSeraph If you read anything about Thief 1, 2, or 3 you would know Garret is supposed to be a Thief and NOT an Assassin/Murderer (and if you play on higher difficulties you can't kill anyone) Garret also never used magic..just potions..and he had gloves that gave spider climb.. In Thief 3 he uses a dagger and in the other two he uses a longsword.... He would also have HiPS (somehow) In Thief 2 he also helps various people (can't remember if he does in Thief 1 or not...been quite a while) and he "saves the world" (albeit against because he HAS to) so most likely his alignment would be TN (but MAYBE it might be NE) And if you read the title of my post, you would see that I said 'like him' and not 'a carbon copy of him.' I meant appearance, personality, and being the guy that climbs, sneaks and backstabs in the party, and the one that finds traps and disables them, etc. I'm sure Garret doesnt have Mithral Chain and an enchanted sword by level 5, which most rogues will in D&d. You cannot translate a character from one game mechanic to another without some give or take. I played it on Medium difficulty and was merrily backstabbing people. Killing innocent civilians and looting their corpses was the most fun part of the game. Which is NE or CE, depending on your point of view. My HiPS will be my invisibility spells. And my spider climb will be my gloves of climbing. I intend to take Alter Self for when i need to change into a crow/raven and spy on someone, or just fly about. Modify memory is just too cool not to have, and using poisoned weapons from the shadows is excellent imo. And having 112 skill points at level 7 is great, I'm great at all the skills one requires from a rogue (which will be my role in the party). Thanks to all the other gentlemen that gave useful input. I look forward to Enoch's guideline and additional input from the other posters or any new ones. PS As i said I'm at work, all the numbers i quote are from the top of my head, so my apologies if my stats dont add up to 35, they do on paper.
The Law 08-19-04, 09:20 AM	Is spymaster from S&S? Oh, and about the spring attack: Its mostly just so i dont get a full attack against me. I've never played a rogue in 3.5 or 3.0 (used to in 2nd, but I've been DM since we started playing 3rd and 3.5, until recently). Point i'm trying to make is I remember what happened to the rogue I dm'ed for when he moved in, made a sneak attack, and then stood there. I used to have the NPC full attack him, and with d6 hp, that's not so good for the poor rogue. If you SA and move 10 feet away, at least you can't be full attacked. I'm open to suggestion though, the DM has insisted that I play a rogue (apparently there are traps in the adventure, and numerous other reasons to need a rogue but obviously he wont divulge any more). He also let it slip there's a lot of undead, but that's what UMD is for. Scrolls and wands of fireballs, lightning bolt and searing light anyone? Besides, the game is more than just a bunch of numbers and optimal selections. I'm quite keen on playing an assassin, simply because i've never played one before and I think it will be fun.
Enoch Van Garret 08-19-04, 09:53 AM	Ok, so I lied, and created a new post entirely. Your stats are perfect - I can't think of a thing I would change with them. Mine were 16 16 14 13 12 9, but as I said, in retrospect I would have chosen what you have. Classes: I strongly suggest not taking levels of assassin, as not only is it sub-optimal for what you want to do due to lack of skill points and crappy saves, but it's also a fairly weak class in the end. Most things you want to assassinate have a fort save high enough to survive you or will be encountered in situations where you can't use your death attack. My suggestion: Straight Rogue7 (since every decent rogue PrC requires 10 ranks in some skill, you're more or less confined to either this or some combination of Rogue/Fighter, although tossing in 3 levels of swashbuckler nets you a slightly better base attack, free weapon finesse, and int to damage). You have pretty much free reign on feats as long as you think ahead about prerequisites. Good Luck! *edit* just read your 2nd post - if Assassins are getting Modify Memory now, i take it back. Go full Assassin, with my blessing, but watch those saves! Modify Memory (especially paired with Detect Thoughts) is one of the most powerful spells around in the hands of a devious player. At higher levels you'll gain real HiPS, as well as higher save DCs for your spells - possibly even Mindspy further down the road. And since you're evil, I strongly suggest grabbing the quick 5 levels of Zhentarim Spy - it's most of the best goodies of Spymaster rolled into 5 levels. A quick grab of Practiced Spellcaster ensures that your caster level keeps going up after you're done with Assassin.
Timely Drought 08-19-04, 11:08 AM	Why is Modify Memory considered so good?
Enoch Van Garret 08-19-04, 03:59 PM	Modify Memory, Detect Thoughts, and similar spells are like levers and fulcrums. Not all that amazing in and of themselves, but get sneaky with their implementation and you can pull off some very impressive things. I'll post a more detailed response when I can.
The Law 08-20-04, 05:05 AM	Thank you for the excellent reply, Enoch. Please do elaborate when you get a chance :) I'm taking assassin levels basically so i can get all those ultra cool spells (while being able to cast them in armor! Read DMG 3.5 - assassin casts spells as bard does) that help rogues out. I dont need to memorize them before hand either, so i can cast any of the spells i know as i need them. Feather fall - jumping off a high building after breaking and entering? Ghost sound - distract a guard with noise to sneak past him True strike - hide, observe, cast true strike, do a death attack, and if he saves, you'll be guaranteed to hit with your sneak attack at least Invisibility - for a rogue, being able to cast without memorizing it beforehand? Enough said. Alter self - change into a crow, scout ahead, spy on the enemy, or just fly to a hard to reach place. Why spend ranks in climb? Or.. Spider climb - when you need to scale those ultra slippery walls. Darkness - for when you need a quick escape. Greater invisibility - heh. Sneak attack master. Modify memory - Oh, mr guard, dont you remember that the queen told you to only allow me through to her private chambers while she is sleeping? Or guard, dont you remember it wasnt me that you caught killing/stealing, it was that guy over there? Just too cool not to have. I have a high intelligence, so my death attacks will at least have a chance of working. I'll get Int boosters to raise the DC as soon as possible too, that way i can cast more spells spontaneously (and in armor...). Looked at my stats, this is how he looks: Khildjin the Nightblade Male human NE rogue5/assassin2 Str 11 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 14 Skills Base Mod ------ ---------------- Move silently 8 11 Hide 8 11 Search 10 13 Spot 10 11 UMD 10 12 Disguise 4 6 Disable Device 10 13 Open Lock 10 13 Tumble 10 13 Sleight 10 13 Gather Info 10 12 Swim 2 2 Feats: ------- Improved Init Weapon Finesse Quick Draw Flick of the Wrist Spells known: ---------------- 1st Feather fall True Strike Ghost Sound BAB: +4 Modified: +7 (weapon finesse) Saves: F +3 Ref +10 Will +2 (ugh) *edit: where is practiced spellcaster from?
Enoch Van Garret 08-20-04, 04:34 PM	F +3 Ref +10 Will +2 (ugh) I told you so. Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine. Thanks for posting your spell list - I'll edit this post with a detailed reply within 90 minutes, as I'll be heading home from work. Watch this space - I mean it this time! *edit* Home now. Let's see what we have here... Feather Fall - this is a bit of a waste of a spell - you're usually better off having a ring of feather fall. Spell slots are a bit too precious to waste on this sort of thing most of the time, although it's a bit nicer now that assassins cast spells spontaneously. Ghost Sound - another, much better, use for Ghost Sound is to imitate the speech of another person in a voice utterly dissimilar to your own. The 'helpless maiden plea for help' works quite nicely with this one. By combining Change Self with Ghost Sound, you can lip-synch to the fake voice you create and become that much more convincing a duplicate of someone else, whom you can handily frame or impersonate (or both). True Strike - A must. Never be without this one. Invisibility - handy, but not that awesome. Fairly well suited to an assassin, though - the one-shot attack is almost always your death attack. Alter Self - better than spider climb, as you mention. Don't waste a slot on Spider, grab the item if it's that important to you. Darkness - be careful with this one, as it hurts you as much as your opponents. Try to talk your DM into Blacklight instead. Greater Invisibility - it would be pretty awesome if you got enough attacks a round to take advantage of it. Bit of a waste of a spell for a low-BAB build like this, though. Take advantage of your sneak attack capabilities and use spells that deal damage with a ranged touch attack, like Ray of Enfeeblement (and later, Enervation). Also, don't forget the absolute best use for Modify Memory - BENEFICIAL memories. Never underestimate the importance of connections - if a person remembers you saving their life, or some other great favor you did them, you've landed a friend in high places (or low places, depending on what you're doing). Detect Thoughts also lets you get into your enemies' heads - password is what? bacon? 1 2 3 4 5? Amazing...that's the same as my luggage! Looks to me like you've got a good handle on it. Just try to think realistically - things that sound really cool are not always a smart investment of your spell slots, and the fact that you have a limited number of spells known means you must be extremely choosy with your spell selections. Likewise, remember that direct combat is never your forte - do your sneak attack thing, and get gone. If you can attack and hide in the same round, do it always - or, even better, attack from 30 feet away with ranged touch spells. A few gameplay tips, as well: 1. Anytime you kill anyone, pin the assassination on someone else - anyone else. Then point out to your DM that 9 times out of 10, once they have a viable suspect, guards stop worrying about the murder. This meshes well with tricks like being alter self'd into a guard's form and killing the target in front of 30 witnesses while you've got the real guard tied up in a storeroom with his memory modified to make him think he really did kill the victim. Then later scuff yourself up and drag the guard to the authorities, claiming you subdued him. You walk away suspicion-free with a reward and quite probably a few new contacts to exploit... 2. Stay the hell out of direct fights with anything remotely dangerous to you. That's what you've got a party for! If you really must get your hands dirty, don't be afraid to wait 1-2 rounds buffing before landing a big sneak attack - if yours is the killing blow, you won't have to deal with the inevitable counterattack you normally get from laying out a ton of fast damage. 3. The easiest way to not get hit or be forced to make a saving throw is always to simply not be there. Skirt wierd locations far away from the party both in and out of combat - if you get under attack, it's easy to quad back to the party (or more often, hide right away, if you're 14th or higher). 4. Trust nobody. What the party doesn't know they can't divulge under interrogation! 5. Have fun, dammit!
The Law 08-23-04, 05:55 AM	Played the first game on Saturday, and it was OK. THing is, DM gave us 19,000gp to buy items with in the 3.5DMG, and i'm not so sure what to take. Anyone have recommendations? I took the following: (it was a quick choice though, not optimal): +2 mithral shirt (5100gp) +1 returning dagger (8301gp) boots of striding and springing (5500gp) Can anyone recommend any other items? Maybe that returning dagger is a bit pricey... and thats basically what i have. I'd prefer a nice mix of wondrous items, a wand of searing light with 5 charges (Dm's veto :( ) and so on...
scrollreader 08-23-04, 06:19 AM	Change out the +2 mithril armor for a +1 mithril armor and a +1 buckler. That'll give you about 2000 gp in cash to toss around. Which is, coincidently, enough, enough to get you a ring of protection. This package, as compared to yours, (for a total price increase of the cost of a masterwork buckler) gives you another +2 AC. (+1 versus touch attacks). After that ... anything that gives you touch attacks is golden. Scorching Ray is nice cost/benefit ration, but in a pinch a wand of lesser orb (sonic) is cheap and effective.And, if you /really/ need to pinch pennies, you can make do with a wand of ray of frost. IMO, a few ray of frost wands are a better use than the extra 6000 you spend for returning. And they allow you to pretty much make ranged attacks at will. Just my two cents.