Anyone play a Rage Mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone play a Rage Mage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sparkle Grimjaws
09-20-05, 10:36 AM Just curious as to how effective you were, if you helped or hindered, etc.

Right now I have a Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1

S18 D14 C14 I8 W8 Ch12

Feats are Power Attack, Reckless Rage

Spells include Mirror Image and Fists of Stone

With Fists (+6 to Str) and Reckless (+6 to Str/Con) my Str jumps to 30. With a sucky AC I use Miirror Image
Gerdreg
09-20-05, 10:49 AM I have, in the past, played a Rage Mage. I was an Orc Barbarian/ Sorcerer. Overall, it was fun because I had more to do than just Rage and hit stuff, but it wasn't as powerful as I had hoped. Our group had a pure Barbarian so I had a good comparison to see how well I was contibuting to the group. I found myself spending all my spells to beef up damage and abilities just to be on par with him, which resulted in me not being much of a caster, not to mention I would waste actions casting buffs instead of attacking. From an otimization standpoint, I think the class would be worthwhile if it was either full BAB or casting. Being 3/4 BAB and half casting kinda sux compared to Bladesinger, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Dragon Slayer, ect.
Wizu
09-20-05, 11:28 AM Rage mage is the singlemost broken thing in existence! The tenth level ability speaks for itself, heck just be a wizard/bard and snatch it while its fresh! Its one of those abilities I like spending ten levels. Uncapped tensers transformation once per day is almost godhood, now all I need is double its uses per day!

For extra cheese, be warforged and take from UA whirling frenzy variant.

Polymorph all day baby!

And, theres something terribly wrong in raging bard. I mean, seriously. :ahem:
Xeraph
09-20-05, 11:33 AM I say, I say, I say, I would like to make that Persistant somehow, maybe with the use of Sacred Exorsist and Divine Metamagic.
Wizu
09-20-05, 12:07 PM The idea! Now, how do we turn rage mage into "24/7 uncapped tensers transformation" class?

Whoa, the appliances of "more than your level should allow" bab and casting!

On second tought, mebbe I misunderstood something. Seems the bab is capped at your character level not at your caster level. Would it be the latter, you could do wonderous stuff with rage mage. Then again, this is not the first time I'm wrong. :P
Wizu
09-20-05, 12:15 PM Oh, yeah, I think I just had an evilgasm guys.

barbarian 1/bard 4/rage mage 10/survivor 5

Bite that you no bab class! ^^
Xeraph
09-20-05, 12:31 PM Right on! :ayyyy!:
PhoenixInferno
09-20-05, 12:43 PM The thing I don't like about using Bard however is that Spell Rage doesn't include Illusions and Enchantments - the Bard's area of expertise. Spell Rage is for Evocations, Necromancy and Conjuration (?) - basically direct damage type stuff.
Gerdreg
09-20-05, 12:45 PM I'm missing what you guys are so excited about.
Tenser's Transformation only lasts 1 round per level and it's total bonuses aren't anything you can't get with a bunch of second level spells. Not to mention it's only useable once per day (unless you can cast it also).
McJarvis
09-20-05, 01:24 PM Unfortunately most peoples miss the coolest part of the Rage Mage. Check out my UberGrappler build for a possible abuse.(and all it takes is a 1 level dip- not 10)
Ander Spectacular
09-20-05, 03:55 PM Rage Mage is a flavor class, not really all that effective. The only thing really useful is you get the free quicken 1/rage. I would recommend Green Star Adept if possible. Strength boosts, DR, 5 caster levels(plus the improved caster level ability), if you like your con, just jump out at level 8 or 9 so you don't become a construct. It looks like with what you've posted, though, GSA would be tough. Maybe use dragon disciple instead for no real caster level improvement(with a 12 Cha you will be working hard to get higher level spells anyway), but extra spells. Rage Mage takes a lot of planning and forethought for it to work out, it can work, but you are just another suboptimal gish.

PS: that rage mage grappler is okay, but why even bother with all that, you can get a huge grapple check without all that.
-AS-
McJarvis
09-21-05, 02:21 PM Rage Mage is a flavor class, not really all that effective. The only thing really useful is you get the free quicken 1/rage. I would recommend Green Star Adept if possible. Strength boosts, DR, 5 caster levels(plus the improved caster level ability), if you like your con, just jump out at level 8 or 9 so you don't become a construct. It looks like with what you've posted, though, GSA would be tough. Maybe use dragon disciple instead for no real caster level improvement(with a 12 Cha you will be working hard to get higher level spells anyway), but extra spells. Rage Mage takes a lot of planning and forethought for it to work out, it can work, but you are just another suboptimal gish.

PS: that rage mage grappler is okay, but why even bother with all that, you can get a huge grapple check without all that.
-AS-

Where's your bigger grapple? The build's aim was to grapple the tarresque with little-or-no fail, and he has a +81. You have to get up to the 100 range to do it.
Ander Spectacular
09-21-05, 05:31 PM Human Human Paragon1/Barbarian(Bear Totem)5/Cleric(Kord)7/Human Paragon2-3/Cleric8-12

Feats(In no particular order):
Extend Spell
Extra Turning
Practiced Spellcaster
True Believer
Quicken Spell
Divine Metamagic(Quicken Spell)
Improved Grapple(Bonus)
Great Fortitude(Bonus)
Toughness(Bonus)

Items:
Scroll of Giant Size
Scroll of Shapechange
Any item that grants +10 to grapple checks or something like that, ie custom item.
Belt of Champions(CD)

Here's the gist of it(all grappling is based on being big and strong, not exactly something real tough to do). UMD the scroll of shapechange and Shapechange into a Marilith(not the biggest and baddest by any means), UMD for giant size spell and Giant size your marilith, Quicken whatever else you want using divine metamagic(divine power is a goodie), Rage. Marilith has a strength of 29, +32(Giant Size), +6(Divine Power), +4(Rage)=71(+30). 30,+16(size),+20(BAB),+4 while raging(Bear Totem Barb), +4(Improved Grapple), +10(grapple check item a la Gloves of the titan grip), +10(Belt of Champions, +4 grapple checks, additional +6 on all strength checks), +1(Competition domain)=95 grapple check. Its not quite as high as yours, but i didn't max out my strength, in fact, strength is a dump stat in the build. The benefit is the marilith's constriction ability which knocks a constricted person unconscious unless they make a Fortitude save DC of 50. You can just as easily do this build with a Cleric 20 and take the animal domain for shapechange, and just miracle giant size. The real trick is a good grappler that is just medium or large and not colossal size. All colossal creatures have a big grapple check. Sorry for the thread derail, i am a huge grappling fan.
-AS-
00_Whupass
09-21-05, 05:49 PM Back to the topic at hand, from an optimization standpoint the Rage Mage is sub par. Yes, tensers transformation is neat, but not worth the overall investment in the class. Most of the reasons have been pointed out (1/2 Caster level and 3/4 BAB being the chief among them), but I have another problem with the rage mage. One of the Key qualities of a PrC, IMHO, is that it focuses on and improves an element of the class that preceeded it. The best optimization PrCs are those that follow this philisophy, springing immediately to mind is the Frenzied Berserker which focuses exclusively on taking advantage of the extra str gained through Rage/Frenzy through Power attack. On the other hand PrCs that try to harmonize discordant abilities, such as rage and spellcasting general fall short and create a power gap with the rest of a similarly optomized party, as Gerdreg pointed out.

The Rage Mage is a very flavorful class, which I will likely play some day, but from a strictly CO point of view it falls short of the goal for all those reasons stated above.
Ander Spectacular
09-21-05, 06:35 PM Maybe with your current build you could do something like Barb4/Sorceror2/Fighter1/Suel Arcanamach3/Rage Mage 10. You would have all your spells from SA be extended while your sorceror levels give you a little bump in spells per day. You would have 3 spell rages, which allows a quickened spell for free from each one. You would get 5th level SA spells and BAB of 16. I would recommend using polymorph, improved invis, and other buffing spells. In a single round while in spell rage you can both improved invis and polymorph. Of course you wouldn't be totally optimized, but the rage mage would work out in this way. Oh yeah, pick up Arcane strike and use that for your sorceror spells if you want as well. Just an idea of one way to make this work for you. If you had the chance to design a pure rage mage, i would do something like...Human Paragon1/Paladin of Freedom(i think thats the Chaotic paladin)4/Fighter1/Barbarian1/Suel Arcanamach3/Rage Mage7/Human Paragon2-3/Spellsword1. I don't think this would be unplayable or super weak by any means. Cast as a 9th level SA and have +16BAB.
-AS-
neilthrun
09-21-05, 09:06 PM Where's your bigger grapple? The build's aim was to grapple the tarresque with little-or-no fail, and he has a +81. You have to get up to the 100 range to do it.

Psywariors can get grapple checks like that. And they can make themselves big enough to actually grapple the tarrasque. But then again, what good does grappling that thing do?

Still I do like the grappling rage mage build, its quite good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sparkle Grimjaws 09-20-05, 10:36 AM	Just curious as to how effective you were, if you helped or hindered, etc. Right now I have a Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1 S18 D14 C14 I8 W8 Ch12 Feats are Power Attack, Reckless Rage Spells include Mirror Image and Fists of Stone With Fists (+6 to Str) and Reckless (+6 to Str/Con) my Str jumps to 30. With a sucky AC I use Miirror Image
Gerdreg 09-20-05, 10:49 AM	I have, in the past, played a Rage Mage. I was an Orc Barbarian/ Sorcerer. Overall, it was fun because I had more to do than just Rage and hit stuff, but it wasn't as powerful as I had hoped. Our group had a pure Barbarian so I had a good comparison to see how well I was contibuting to the group. I found myself spending all my spells to beef up damage and abilities just to be on par with him, which resulted in me not being much of a caster, not to mention I would waste actions casting buffs instead of attacking. From an otimization standpoint, I think the class would be worthwhile if it was either full BAB or casting. Being 3/4 BAB and half casting kinda sux compared to Bladesinger, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Dragon Slayer, ect.
Wizu 09-20-05, 11:28 AM	Rage mage is the singlemost broken thing in existence! The tenth level ability speaks for itself, heck just be a wizard/bard and snatch it while its fresh! Its one of those abilities I like spending ten levels. Uncapped tensers transformation once per day is almost godhood, now all I need is double its uses per day! For extra cheese, be warforged and take from UA whirling frenzy variant. Polymorph all day baby! And, theres something terribly wrong in raging bard. I mean, seriously. :ahem:
Xeraph 09-20-05, 11:33 AM	I say, I say, I say, I would like to make that Persistant somehow, maybe with the use of Sacred Exorsist and Divine Metamagic.
Wizu 09-20-05, 12:07 PM	The idea! Now, how do we turn rage mage into "24/7 uncapped tensers transformation" class? Whoa, the appliances of "more than your level should allow" bab and casting! On second tought, mebbe I misunderstood something. Seems the bab is capped at your character level not at your caster level. Would it be the latter, you could do wonderous stuff with rage mage. Then again, this is not the first time I'm wrong. :P
Wizu 09-20-05, 12:15 PM	Oh, yeah, I think I just had an evilgasm guys. barbarian 1/bard 4/rage mage 10/survivor 5 Bite that you no bab class! ^^
Xeraph 09-20-05, 12:31 PM	Right on! :ayyyy!:
PhoenixInferno 09-20-05, 12:43 PM	The thing I don't like about using Bard however is that Spell Rage doesn't include Illusions and Enchantments - the Bard's area of expertise. Spell Rage is for Evocations, Necromancy and Conjuration (?) - basically direct damage type stuff.
Gerdreg 09-20-05, 12:45 PM	I'm missing what you guys are so excited about. Tenser's Transformation only lasts 1 round per level and it's total bonuses aren't anything you can't get with a bunch of second level spells. Not to mention it's only useable once per day (unless you can cast it also).
McJarvis 09-20-05, 01:24 PM	Unfortunately most peoples miss the coolest part of the Rage Mage. Check out my UberGrappler build for a possible abuse.(and all it takes is a 1 level dip- not 10)
Ander Spectacular 09-20-05, 03:55 PM	Rage Mage is a flavor class, not really all that effective. The only thing really useful is you get the free quicken 1/rage. I would recommend Green Star Adept if possible. Strength boosts, DR, 5 caster levels(plus the improved caster level ability), if you like your con, just jump out at level 8 or 9 so you don't become a construct. It looks like with what you've posted, though, GSA would be tough. Maybe use dragon disciple instead for no real caster level improvement(with a 12 Cha you will be working hard to get higher level spells anyway), but extra spells. Rage Mage takes a lot of planning and forethought for it to work out, it can work, but you are just another suboptimal gish. PS: that rage mage grappler is okay, but why even bother with all that, you can get a huge grapple check without all that. -AS-
McJarvis 09-21-05, 02:21 PM	Rage Mage is a flavor class, not really all that effective. The only thing really useful is you get the free quicken 1/rage. I would recommend Green Star Adept if possible. Strength boosts, DR, 5 caster levels(plus the improved caster level ability), if you like your con, just jump out at level 8 or 9 so you don't become a construct. It looks like with what you've posted, though, GSA would be tough. Maybe use dragon disciple instead for no real caster level improvement(with a 12 Cha you will be working hard to get higher level spells anyway), but extra spells. Rage Mage takes a lot of planning and forethought for it to work out, it can work, but you are just another suboptimal gish. PS: that rage mage grappler is okay, but why even bother with all that, you can get a huge grapple check without all that. -AS- Where's your bigger grapple? The build's aim was to grapple the tarresque with little-or-no fail, and he has a +81. You have to get up to the 100 range to do it.
Ander Spectacular 09-21-05, 05:31 PM	Human Human Paragon1/Barbarian(Bear Totem)5/Cleric(Kord)7/Human Paragon2-3/Cleric8-12 Feats(In no particular order): Extend Spell Extra Turning Practiced Spellcaster True Believer Quicken Spell Divine Metamagic(Quicken Spell) Improved Grapple(Bonus) Great Fortitude(Bonus) Toughness(Bonus) Items: Scroll of Giant Size Scroll of Shapechange Any item that grants +10 to grapple checks or something like that, ie custom item. Belt of Champions(CD) Here's the gist of it(all grappling is based on being big and strong, not exactly something real tough to do). UMD the scroll of shapechange and Shapechange into a Marilith(not the biggest and baddest by any means), UMD for giant size spell and Giant size your marilith, Quicken whatever else you want using divine metamagic(divine power is a goodie), Rage. Marilith has a strength of 29, +32(Giant Size), +6(Divine Power), +4(Rage)=71(+30). 30,+16(size),+20(BAB),+4 while raging(Bear Totem Barb), +4(Improved Grapple), +10(grapple check item a la Gloves of the titan grip), +10(Belt of Champions, +4 grapple checks, additional +6 on all strength checks), +1(Competition domain)=95 grapple check. Its not quite as high as yours, but i didn't max out my strength, in fact, strength is a dump stat in the build. The benefit is the marilith's constriction ability which knocks a constricted person unconscious unless they make a Fortitude save DC of 50. You can just as easily do this build with a Cleric 20 and take the animal domain for shapechange, and just miracle giant size. The real trick is a good grappler that is just medium or large and not colossal size. All colossal creatures have a big grapple check. Sorry for the thread derail, i am a huge grappling fan. -AS-
00_Whupass 09-21-05, 05:49 PM	Back to the topic at hand, from an optimization standpoint the Rage Mage is sub par. Yes, tensers transformation is neat, but not worth the overall investment in the class. Most of the reasons have been pointed out (1/2 Caster level and 3/4 BAB being the chief among them), but I have another problem with the rage mage. One of the Key qualities of a PrC, IMHO, is that it focuses on and improves an element of the class that preceeded it. The best optimization PrCs are those that follow this philisophy, springing immediately to mind is the Frenzied Berserker which focuses exclusively on taking advantage of the extra str gained through Rage/Frenzy through Power attack. On the other hand PrCs that try to harmonize discordant abilities, such as rage and spellcasting general fall short and create a power gap with the rest of a similarly optomized party, as Gerdreg pointed out. The Rage Mage is a very flavorful class, which I will likely play some day, but from a strictly CO point of view it falls short of the goal for all those reasons stated above.
Ander Spectacular 09-21-05, 06:35 PM	Maybe with your current build you could do something like Barb4/Sorceror2/Fighter1/Suel Arcanamach3/Rage Mage 10. You would have all your spells from SA be extended while your sorceror levels give you a little bump in spells per day. You would have 3 spell rages, which allows a quickened spell for free from each one. You would get 5th level SA spells and BAB of 16. I would recommend using polymorph, improved invis, and other buffing spells. In a single round while in spell rage you can both improved invis and polymorph. Of course you wouldn't be totally optimized, but the rage mage would work out in this way. Oh yeah, pick up Arcane strike and use that for your sorceror spells if you want as well. Just an idea of one way to make this work for you. If you had the chance to design a pure rage mage, i would do something like...Human Paragon1/Paladin of Freedom(i think thats the Chaotic paladin)4/Fighter1/Barbarian1/Suel Arcanamach3/Rage Mage7/Human Paragon2-3/Spellsword1. I don't think this would be unplayable or super weak by any means. Cast as a 9th level SA and have +16BAB. -AS-
neilthrun 09-21-05, 09:06 PM	Where's your bigger grapple? The build's aim was to grapple the tarresque with little-or-no fail, and he has a +81. You have to get up to the 100 range to do it. Psywariors can get grapple checks like that. And they can make themselves big enough to actually grapple the tarrasque. But then again, what good does grappling that thing do? Still I do like the grappling rage mage build, its quite good.