Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 12-31-05, 12:25 AM	Posting here since my thread in the monster section seems to be progressing at the pace of hardening cement.... :D Anyone ever tried playing any of the undead races in Libris Mortis? If so, how do you find them? Any tips/tricks for playing one effectively? What are some pitfalls to look out for? What about builds? Do you start out as 1 off the bat, or it is best to multiclass into the undead SS progression after taking a few fighter lvs first to build a firm foundation? Can they be min/maxed, even with the henious LA and the crap that is undead HD? Since this is the charop boards, I do have high expectations, you know. ;) And thanks in advance.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 12:28 AM	The Wight looks like the best option, so you may get the energy drain feats (which own) and you can create spawn really early.
Gwythion 12-31-05, 12:49 AM	The Wight looks like the best option, so you may get the energy drain feats (which own) and you can create spawn really early. Yeah, then take monk. :)
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 12:51 AM	Monk's Unarmed Strike wouldn't trigger negative level damage, although Monk is still a good idea so you can full attack and use slams.
Llochlyn 12-31-05, 04:25 AM	I'll play this character (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=560510) today, who's a necropolitan, wich is not exactly a race, but is still undead, so what applies to him applies to other undead I'll abuse a lot his physical ability damage immunity, to cast Vile spells. As you can see in the build, I'll work a lot with negative energy, and I think there's some serious potential against any living foe...
lostone 01-02-06, 08:32 AM	Anyone ever tried playing any of the undead races in Libris Mortis? If so, how do you find them? Any tips/tricks for playing one effectively? What are some pitfalls to look out for? What about builds? Do you start out as 1 off the bat, or it is best to multiclass into the undead SS progression after taking a few fighter lvs first to build a firm foundation?I want to make sure you realize that if it is a racial progression for a creature you have to start as that, you can't multiclass into it later as that would be effectively changing your race. Can they be min/maxed, even with the henious LA and the crap that is undead HD? Since this is the charop boards, I do have high expectations, you know. ;) Depends on what classes you're looking at. If playing a full caster it is almost always better to play a 0 LA race (necropolitan is good for this). However if playing a melee type character than LA is less hindering. Monk's Unarmed Strike wouldn't trigger negative level damage, although Monk is still a good idea so you can full attack and use slams.It should, as you're still physically touching your opponent when you use your unarmed strike. They have vampire monks somewhere and I was sure their combat stats listed unarmed strikes that had negative levels in the unarmed damage (I think in MM1, the examples aren't listed in the SRD, if I had my books with me I'd check). Vampire Monks really tear things down since they give 2 negative levels per hit. IIRC Vampires are only 1 LA more than Wights, small price to pay for another negative level every attack.
Mystic Ninja 01-02-06, 09:49 AM	I want to make sure you realize that if it is a racial progression for a creature you have to start as that, you can't multiclass into it later as that would be effectively changing your race. You know in the wizards articles with racial progressions it specifically states that you can multiclass in and out of the progression [such as gaining more lycanthrope powers quickly, or slowing them by multiclassing with say fighter]. Most DM's I know allow this same set of rules to work for savage species progressions, as long as the player isn't being a munchkin about it and not taking any racial levels, just choosing the most overpowered "0-Level" that there is. [While I understand that "most DM's I know" is hardly RAW I thought I should point out that there is preceedant for what he wants to do, and that many sane DM's allow it to happen, within reason].
lostone 01-02-06, 10:00 AM	You know in the wizards articles with racial progressions it specifically states that you can multiclass in and out of the progression [such as gaining more lycanthrope powers quickly, or slowing them by multiclassing with say fighter].Lycanthropes are templates and are a different thing. My interpretation is that racial progressions cover a monstrous race from the time they are able to wander away from the nest/hive/whatever to the time they reach physical maturity. You can't stop aging just like a teen can't stop pimples, it's just a part of growing up. I'm pretty sure it is treated as such in Savage Species, which while being one of the pseudo 3.5 books is the closest thing we have to an authority on placing monstrous races.
Mystic Ninja 01-02-06, 10:52 AM	Lycanthropes are templates and are a different thing. My interpretation is that racial progressions cover a monstrous race from the time they are able to wander away from the nest/hive/whatever to the time they reach physical maturity. You can't stop aging just like a teen can't stop pimples, it's just a part of growing up. I'm pretty sure it is treated as such in Savage Species, which while being one of the pseudo 3.5 books is the closest thing we have to an authority on placing monstrous races. True enough, but the full progression also assumes that you are both practicing / developing your natural abilities, rather then ignoring the fact that you can breath fire and instead focusing on your mad cool thieving skills. Keep in mind I'm not disagreeing with you, just offerring an alternate perspective [one shared by the guys I game with at least]. Besides if his DM lets him spread out a racial ability then Char Op should be based around that fact, rather then us endlessly informing him that his DM is wrong...
SoulGamit 01-02-06, 12:19 PM	Page 34 of libris mortis says that you can multiclass into (although not out of) an undead class. It should, as you're still physically touching your opponent when you use your unarmed strike. They have vampire monks somewhere and I was sure their combat stats listed unarmed strikes that had negative levels in the unarmed damage (I think in MM1, the examples aren't listed in the SRD, if I had my books with me I'd check). Vampire Monks really tear things down since they give 2 negative levels per hit. IIRC Vampires are only 1 LA more than Wights, small price to pay for another negative level every attack. RAW, that still doesn't work since unarmed strike isn't the same as a slam attack.
lostone 01-02-06, 12:35 PM	Page 34 of libris mortis says that you can multiclass into (although not out of) an undead class.I wasn't aware of that, but it has been a while since I have looked at LM. RAW, that still doesn't work since unarmed strike isn't the same as a slam attack. Energy Drain (Su): This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. An affected opponent takes a –1 penalty on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and loses one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. A spellcaster loses one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level; this loss persists until the negative level is removed. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.It does not specify it has to be a slam attack or even a natural attack, it just has to be a melee attack where the creature makes contact with its opponent. The only reason Wight lists slam attack with energy drain is because that is the only kind of attack a Wight gets. Actually if you want to get technical it could almost be argued that energy drain works even if wielding melee weapons (it doesn't, there is a weapon enhancement that does allow it though, think that is also in Libris Mortis).
catharz 01-02-06, 01:23 PM	It does not specify it has to be a slam attack or even a natural attack, it just has to be a melee attack where the creature makes contact with its opponent. The only reason Wight lists slam attack with energy drain is because that is the only kind of attack a Wight gets. That isn't what my copy of the SRD says about the wight. Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 14 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wight gains 5 temporary hit points. No complaints though, you can still do a full attack + secondary slam. But if you're looking for a badass undead, I don't think the wight (ECL 8?) is going to do it. Set your sights a bit lower: The (ECL 5?) ghoul, which has three natural attacks, all of which paralyze. At higher levels, you can combine your natural attacks with an IUS routine. This is scary. Get the improved coup de grace feat. Claw/bite three of your enemies, IUS stun the elf. Get the contagious paralysis feat (which is really better for NPCs). Ability focus, Improved paralysis. Your DM will start exclusively sending immune creatures at you. Oh well. :P Oh, and don't bother with the ghast. They stink. :rolleyes: The Savage Progressions ghost MotUH is a classic, but don't forget that they can do possessions too!
lostone 01-02-06, 01:45 PM	That isn't what my copy of the SRD says about the wight.I think that is one of those cases where the text is adjusted to the creature at hand. They specify slam simply because that is the only attack they gave the wight. However the full rules for Energy Drain are what I quoted and indicate that if the wight took monk levels then all unarmed attacks would qualify for energy drain simply because they are melee attacks and that is all you need to use energy drain.
catharz 01-02-06, 01:47 PM	Or maybe the specific wight text puts limitations on the generic energy drain. I hope you're right, for the sake of optimization! I think that is one of those cases where the text is adjusted to the creature at hand. They specify slam simply because that is the only attack they gave the wight. However the full rules for Energy Drain are what I quoted and indicate that if the wight took monk levels then all unarmed attacks would qualify for energy drain simply because they are melee attacks and that is all you need to use energy drain.
Doomed_Penguin 01-03-06, 11:38 AM	Get the contagious paralysis feat (which is really better for NPCs). Ability focus, Improved paralysis. Where do you find ability focus? Also, I suggest just playing a Lich Cleric who focuses on necromancy. If you take Heirophant levels, he may allow you to use your paralyzing touch ranged if you get divine reach... but he'll only let you do it the first time, and will INSTANTLY regret it. :D
lostone 01-03-06, 12:10 PM	Where do you find ability focus? Also, I suggest just playing a Lich Cleric who focuses on necromancy. If you take Heirophant levels, he may allow you to use your paralyzing touch ranged if you get divine reach... but he'll only let you do it the first time, and will INSTANTLY regret it. :DIn the SRD, monster feats file ABILITY FOCUS [GENERAL] Choose one of the creature’s special attacks. Prerequisite: Special attack. Benefit: Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the creature takes the feat it applies to a different special attack.
Doomed_Penguin 01-03-06, 07:10 PM	Thx lostone. P.S. I checked LM, and it's better to just take the templates... Classes are to unreal... you cant just become half a wight, and I don't think you should be forced to continue taking any class. And, if this was the case, then it conflicts with the spawn abilities.