Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shebnar 09-30-04, 01:06 PM	Hello everyone... I recently joined a party whose DM is abusing the 'Antimagic Ray' spell from Draconomicon :mymy: At first it was challenging, then became a nightmare...At first-second round the Wizard/Sorcerer of the group have already lost all of their spellcasting ability. I know they can still cast spells from items, but it is not the same thing... :( (besides, enemy Wizards are using a lot of Mord's Disjunctions too...) (Usually the cleric - if properly buffed - can resist a little longer, but he cannot do anything against Moment of Prescience...) So I was thinking: is there any way (other than high deflection/insight/dodge bonus to AC and being an Initiate of Mystra) to gain immunity/resistance/AC special bonus against ray attacks? Any official/unofficial stuff (from items to templates, spells, Prestige Classes etc.) is alright. Thanks for your time! :)
Enoch Van Garret 09-30-04, 01:09 PM	an epic level monk with Exception Deflection and Reflect Arrows puts Ray casters in their place like no other.
carnivore 09-30-04, 01:42 PM	spell turning works great or a ring of spell turning.....the those that cast it dont cast anything for a while themselves :D and it screws all thier buffs
PhoenixInferno 09-30-04, 02:25 PM	Deflective Armor is a Psionic feat that lets you use add your Armor bonus to defend against touch attacks - aren't Rays ranged touch attacks?
Zappa 09-30-04, 02:34 PM	Greater Spell Immunity - but that's only up to 8th level spells. ;)
Bacris 09-30-04, 02:35 PM	The only prob with Deflective Armor is it requires Heavy Armour Optimization which requires BAB +4 and Heavy Armor Proficiency Good for Psychic Warriors - bad for Psions / non-psionics.
Shebnar 09-30-04, 02:46 PM	Deflective Armor is a Psionic feat that lets you use add your Armor bonus to defend against touch attacks - aren't Rays ranged touch attacks? Hello, thanks to all of you! Just a question: where can I find the Deflective Armor feat? I can't find it in the XPH...Does it allow to add a natural armor bonus to the AC too? spell turning works great or a ring of spell turning.....the those that cast it dont cast anything for a while themselves :D and it screws all thier buffs :thumbsup: yes, this is definitive :) ...BUT ( :( ) those damn wizards/sorcerers usely ward themselves with Spell Turning too...And the DM sentenced that in case of planar shifting due to a double spell turning resonance either of the two casters are to be considered DEAD :mymy: (is he too lazy to invent something else? ;) )
PhoenixInferno 09-30-04, 02:51 PM	The only prob with Deflective Armor is it requires Heavy Armour Optimization which requires BAB +4 and Heavy Armor Proficiency Good for Psychic Warriors - bad for Psions / non-psionics. The poster was looking for solutions - not neccessarily the best ones... Deflective Armor is in Races of Stone.
Bacris 09-30-04, 02:55 PM	True, true. And a martial class w/ wild talent & heavy armor optimization can get it. A little harder for the arcane casters to get. It's a 3-feat solution, but if you've got Full Plate, your touch AC goes up to 20+
TheOne 09-30-04, 03:02 PM	Concealment helps against all attacks. Get a cloak of displacement or the spell that does the same thing. Oh, and if the DM uses Mordenkainen's that much then there might be a problem.
carnivore 09-30-04, 03:08 PM	mirror image is nice to :D
Shebnar 09-30-04, 03:26 PM	Concealment helps against all attacks. Get a cloak of displacement or the spell that does the same thing. Oh, and if the DM uses Mordenkainen's that much then there might be a problem. Yes, unfortunately he is a very nasty DM...:( . I forgot to mention that the Wizards/Sorcerer are Xill, and they have the feat from Savage Species (don't remember the name) which allows them to make a partial action per every pair of arms thay have. So figure how the PCs were blasted in the first encounter :weep: ...(Anyway every one of them is a 19°-20° level character, so we have a lot of resources...) Since a PC has been killed by the four-armed monstrosities, the player wanted to build a PC able to avoid/turn the effect of all their ray-based attacks. Anyway it would be interesting creating a (homerule) PrC that avoids rays, if it doesn't exist already...(I would call it 'Beholder Slayer' :) )... Anyway my DM will never let any of us build a situation-sized PrC, so we must attain to written (even unofficial) material.
blakely007 09-30-04, 03:37 PM	I'm a big fan of the improved blink spell. IIRC, it gives you a 50% miss chance (as though invisible).
BetaFlame 09-30-04, 03:40 PM	Use a well worded and modified Wish spell to redender yourself immune to ray attacks? (Consulte a lawyer if your DM is THAT evil) :P
Bacris 09-30-04, 03:42 PM	Call the DM a PITA and call it a day? I've got nothing against DMs making the game difficult, but there's a big difference between difficult and just being downright mean. I'd tell him to quit being a PITA and make the game fun for the PLAYERS, not just for himself. But I'm an ass like that. Blink/Displacement + Deflective Armor + Spell Turning - two items and 3 feats should make for some nice defense.
sereg 09-30-04, 03:47 PM	At first it was challenging, then became a nightmare...At first-second round the Wizard/Sorcerer of the group have already lost all of their spellcasting ability. That spell, unlike most rays, actually gives a will save... A casters strongest save typically. How are they failing left and right? Rays ARE deadly, and in my opinion far overpowered in this edition (especially vs non casters). True strike/moment of prescience just makes your hope to avoid them utterly hopeless. You're best bet is to get straight up immunities/protection from the ray's you'll likely find yourself facing. Sereg
Andreas0815 09-30-04, 04:10 PM	Well, get your hide-skill through the roof. They need targets for their Ray spells, Spot is not a wizard skill and you can sniper with -20 on your hidecheck (should be enough anyway). See invisible and true seeing donīt help em either...
carnivore 09-30-04, 04:18 PM	initiate of mystra will allow you to continue casting your spells, good for clerics counterspelling also,or get initiative and disrupt thier casting with damage etc........ :) doooo! :banghead: i didnt read the first post completely ............oh well
Eyeless Blond 09-30-04, 04:42 PM	My suggestion? Just have your friend make that Hulking Hurler that does like 4 BILLION damage in a single attack, Ref save DC 83. If the DM's going to cheese on you with ten castings of antimagic ray in a round, hit him with cheese that doesn't use any magic at all. :)
BetaFlame 09-30-04, 04:48 PM	Buy some limburger and take it to the next gaming session. Apply liberally to said DM's face. Or why not use their tricks against them? Scry on the Xill, teleport in the middle of them (surprise!) cast antimagic feild.
Shebnar 09-30-04, 04:52 PM	That spell, unlike most rays, actually gives a will save... A casters strongest save typically. How are they failing left and right? ...Antimagic Ray gives a save only to the targeted items, which can make a Will ST (using the Will save of the owner). Why, you could answer, why does it apply to items and NOT to living beings? I just can't answer to that question :twitch: You're best bet is to get straight up immunities/protection from the ray's you'll likely find yourself facing. Have you any suggestion? ;) initiate of mystra will allow you to continue casting your spells, good for clerics counterspelling also,or get initiative and disrupt thier casting with damage etc........ :) Yes, this is the best way (the player has just mailed me saying that the Initiate of Mystra fest is the most viable option)...BUT IMHO I would have liked something more...exotic? IMHO 'Initiate of Mystra' is going to be one of the most cheesy/compulsory feats in the game...(at least in the group I'm currently DMing it seems that Mystra is the only deity in the Universe :D ). Well, get your hide-skill through the roof. They need targets for their Ray spells, Spot is not a wizard skill and you can sniper with -20 on your hidecheck (should be enough anyway). See invisible and true seeing donīt help em either... This sounds very interesting. It would require a Super Sneaker Archer build, someone who can take down enemies from a long distance... Anyway, this is not viable for a spellcaster (or not?)... These Xill (they are 4) use the combo Mord's Disjunction/Antimagic Ray/Summon XXX (to take care of the fighters), then finish off the wounded fighters through 'Power Word, Kill' (more often through 'Finger of Death' and 'Disintegrate', all ray-based attacks). The uncapacitated spellcasters (still wrapped in their personal Antimagic Field) are then overwhelmed by summoned creatures. We could say "OK, just build up a Uber-Frenzied Berserker, an Anthropomorphic Whale Fighter and a Evilslayer Paladin, then throw them in CC. They will probably kill the summoned creatures AND the Xill, if they reach them. The fact is that I can't accept spellcasters get SO humiliated by this combo... :) there must be some trick to beat the baddies without the mandatory 'Initiate of Mystra' feat. ...And thanks to all of you for your time and answers! :) Edit: Or why not use their tricks against them? Scry on the Xill, teleport in the middle of them (surprise!) cast antimagic feild. Hey, this is a great idea! Thank you Beta-Flame! ...The said DM is very correct...but he just believes that these Xill are a sufficiently difficult encounter for our party. Maybe he is right, maybe not. Anyway, even a Hulking Hurler build is CR 20 and can destroy a planet... :D ;)
thorian 09-30-04, 04:59 PM	Place the spellblade enchantment on your weapon. A quarterstaff works nice because it is a double weapon. Enchant one side with spellblade (dispel magic, greater dispel magic) and the other side with spellblade (antimagic ray, some other targeted spell). Total cost = 16300 gp for immunity to those spells, and you can redirect the spell the next round as a free action. Spellblade is in Magic of Faerun.
sereg 09-30-04, 05:12 PM	...Antimagic Ray gives a save only to the targeted items, which can make a Will ST (using the Will save of the owner). Why, you could answer, why does it apply to items and NOT to living beings? I just can't answer to that question Don't beat yourself too bad- the reason you can't answer this question is because it does apply to living beings. the "(object)" text just means it can ALSO be used on items. Antimagic ray has no save like Disintegrate has no save :rolleyes: Sereg
Qaetar 09-30-04, 05:43 PM	sereg is correct. (Qaetar)
Shebnar 09-30-04, 05:51 PM	Don't beat yourself too bad- the reason you can't answer this question is because it does apply to living beings. the "(object)" text just means it can ALSO be used on items. Antimagic ray has no save like Disintegrate has no save :rolleyes: Sereg 'it' in my previous post was (meant to be) referred to 'Will ST', not to 'Antimagic Ray' :) I apologize for the mess.
sereg 09-30-04, 06:03 PM	Why, you could answer, why does it apply to items and NOT to living beings? Shebnar, I understood what you meant in your previous post (that the "it" was refering to the will save)... thus I was saying that Antimagic ray DOES allow you a will save against PEOPLE, not just objects (your party wizard DOES get a save) Sereg
Shebnar 09-30-04, 06:12 PM	Ugh, then the 'correct' Dm will have to give some explainations...no-one did the ST in the party. He just said that 'items get the ST, people not'. SO we were screwed (none of us players owns a copy of 'Draconomicon'). I prefer to think he missed/misunderstood the right way the spell works... Phew, after all it is much better this way. This spell looked too overpowered. Who talked about what to do with limburgers? ;) :D
incubus 09-30-04, 09:49 PM	I prefer to think he missed/misunderstood the right way the spell works... I think he might just be a jerk, especially given that spell-turning ruling. I can't imagine how a wizard is anything more than slightly inconvenienced by being sent to another plane. Hulking hurler his butt. Don't go with the very best ones - they require cheese that the DM won't allow, and magic to boot. Go with one of the earlier builds (the ones on the first page get fixed up a bit into the thread). I think that 4000-odd d6 of damage should suffice anyway.
catharz 10-01-04, 12:00 AM	:thumbsup: yes, this is definitive :) ...BUT ( :( ) those damn wizards/sorcerers usely ward themselves with Spell Turning too...And the DM sentenced that in case of planar shifting due to a double spell turning resonance either of the two casters are to be considered DEAD :mymy: (is he too lazy to invent something else? ;) ) I'm sorry, I know this isn't helpful but I find that hilarious. That kind of a house rule is one of the most complete abuses of DM power I've seen in a long time. I mean, woulden't the enemy wizards be worried about dying to spell turning feedback? Of course, but because the DM dosen't care (he can make as many NPCs as he likes) it only effects the PCs. :rolleyes: My condolences.
StoneTree 10-01-04, 12:31 AM	Force walls... they stop rays, right? So a good-old-fashioned Forcecage, maybe with a dimensional anchor tossed in for balance, should lock those SOBs down but good. Maybe you could manage to lock a fighter in there with them... That is, of course, unless forcecaging a well warded mage results in your death. In which case, I suggest you bring them cookies, and offer these cookies to the Xill, and try to be friends with them.
scrollreader 10-01-04, 12:54 AM	IIRC, There was a Dragon Mag article that was all about rays. Way back in the beginning of 3e, called 'Rays of Light' or somesuch. With a bunch of new rays. And a spell that reflected rays targeted at you back. :D I don't have it handy, but I'll see if I can get you an exact reference.
BetaFlame 10-01-04, 01:07 AM	Summon Monster. Spell Turning on the Monster. Greater Invisiablity on the monster. Put in in front of the caster in question. Watch summon monster and Xill die in a freak planeshifting accident. Watch DM change the rule suddenly.
Traks 10-01-04, 02:06 AM	Summon Monster. Spell Turning on the Monster. Greater Invisiablity on the monster. Put in in front of the caster in question. Watch summon monster and Xill die in a freak planeshifting accident. Watch DM change the rule suddenly. That's the best offer, with wand of summon monster I or II - you will attack with as many yourselves as needed. I suggest putting also illusion on them so they look like PC's. But Betaflame, usually in such situations rules do not change, enemies gain extraordinary ability to discern that enemy is not a PC but NPC instead. Ambush them, using the same spell and striking first with improved invisibility. Use spell mantle.
Aerk 10-01-04, 02:34 AM	To be honest, as the above posters have mentioned, your DM is a wombat. The problem here is not how to solve the ray issue, as that will only work in the short term. You need to address the root cause of the problem. As such, you will need to forge a magical item of great power. Go to your local sporting good store, buy a wooden bat. Go to your local hardware store, and buy a box of nails, and a hammer if you do not own one. Hammer the nails into the bat, making sure to bend them so that you have sharp flanges. Chant "Oh nailbat of righteousness, I imbue in you the power to smite my foe, '<name of DM here>'." and pound in the final nail. Next game session, bring the nailbat in some sort of carrying case. When the Xill appear, remove it from the case, and walk over to your DM looking and apply it liberally to said DM until behavior changes become appearant. This method is kid tested and mother approved.
StoneTree 10-01-04, 02:37 AM	This method is kid tested and mother approved. I know my mom said that kid had it comming, but I don't really think that lone beating really justifies a blanket statement like the one you just made.
Snicker-Snack 10-01-04, 02:41 AM	IIRC, There was a Dragon Mag article that was all about rays. Way back in the beginning of 3e, called 'Rays of Light' or somesuch. With a bunch of new rays. And a spell that reflected rays targeted at you back. I don't buy Dragon Magazine, but i thought i would point that this probably won't work. Actually, any other trick specifically designed to stop rays won't work. Rays (per Tome and Blood) "produce a ray effect". Antimagic ray has "Ray" in it's name and requires a touch attack, but it is not an effect spell, it's a target spell (Compare it to bolt of Glory, on the same page in Draconomicon). For this same reason, it can be affected by spell turning.
Part-Human2 10-01-04, 03:10 AM	Since your DM has made some errors in Antimagic Ray, I thought I'd point out that... Draconomicron is D&D 3.5 while the Multitasking Feat (Savage Species) is D&D 3.0. Partial Actions were abolished in 3.5. That being said a 3.5 version of Multitasking might allow an extra action per pair of arms. Even in 3.0 that's only 1 extra action for a Xill. Both actions cannot be spells with verbal components though, since the Xill has only 1 head. BTW Summon spells have 1 round casting time.
Eyeless Blond 10-01-04, 04:03 AM	I'd go even further with that and suggest that a 3.5 Multitasking feat would only offer an extra attack on a full attack action or somesuch, much in the way that Haste does now. Another clear design intent was to limit the number of standard actions that people get to one a round.
Traks 10-01-04, 04:25 AM	I'd go even further with that and suggest that a 3.5 Multitasking feat would only offer an extra attack on a full attack action or somesuch, much in the way that Haste does now. Another clear design intent was to limit the number of standard actions that people get to one a round. Yup, you need an additional head for each pair of hands for multiple spells. Oh yeah, and use freakin rods of absorption - that's automatic 50 levels of protection. Make your party wizard look like fighter and fighter like wizard, so enemies drain fighters for a round or two. Use Resilient sphere on your fighters and toss them directly to enemie's spellcasters, they are immune to spells and dismiss spell when they get near. Equip fighters with reach weapons and take feat Mageslayer which forces enemy mages to automatically fail "cast defensively".
Andreas0815 10-01-04, 05:00 AM	This sounds very interesting. It would require a Super Sneaker Archer build, someone who can take down enemies from a long distance... Anyway, this is not viable for a spellcaster (or not?)... Well, you could be a Arcane Trickster so you have hide as classskill and you can sneak-attack the Xills with meteor swarms. MS is a ranged touch to hit so you can sneak with it... Or you can get yourself an little goblin, pay him 50 gold so he will follow you around, cast spellturning on him, and laugh as the goblin and the Xill both die due to your DMs houserule. Or bribe a whole goblin-clan (about 30 should be enough), get yourself a hat of disguise, make yourself look like a goblin and cast spellturning on you and 10 off the other goblins. Then you have a good chance the xill will kill themself by searching you...
catharz 10-01-04, 11:09 AM	Draconomicron is D&D 3.5 while the Multitasking Feat (Savage Species) is D&D 3.0. Partial Actions were abolished in 3.5. Well, Savage Species is (as is stated) 3.5 compatable.
rilem 10-01-04, 11:39 AM	As others have pointed out, your problem isn't AC-vs.-rays so much as with lame rulings and misunderstandings by your DM. That said, I haven't seen anybody point out the Wilder (XPsiHndbk), which gets CHA-to-AC vs. touch attacks, including rays. It's capped at full AC, for example, so you have to make sure your standard AC is high as well. I don't find Wilders all that interesting myself, but you could make a good offensive caster out of one.
Zathyr 10-01-04, 12:34 PM	Would there be anything wrong with a plain old Monk here? They can tumble around/through the summoned creatures and grapple/stun the casters (well, one at a time). They also have great touch AC and spell resistance to boot. Just wondering. Seems that, given the situation, one could be handy.