Anything you can do magic can do better [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anything you can do magic can do better [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DIESCUMDIE
05-14-06, 05:41 PM (by magic I include incarnum and psion)
I'm beggining to notice the vague trend that magic is more powerfull than anything else. Yes I love to play a barbarian or fighter and I so dearly wish they were competitive that it has for a long time made me think they are. But then I saw wraithstrike, and realised it totally invalidated the fighters base attack progression. I'm sure you can think of lots of other crazy examples.

Am I right?
If so design a fighter tank type that can take a fully optimized rogue attack on the chin and laugh, that relies on magic.
Then design a skill monkey anti-mage type that can handle all the social interaction, disarm traps, and kill an optimized mage before he knows whats happening, that relies on magic.
(level 10 maybe?)
Pinky's brain
05-14-06, 05:47 PM That's why I personally favor a good ruleset for custom magic items ... it doesn't really fix things, but at least it levels the playing field a bit.
Poder Miserável
05-14-06, 05:53 PM yes magic is more powerfull =(. But its up to the DM to keep things balanced and pure warriors still usefull and funny. It will depend on your campaign and the players skills.
djinni
05-14-06, 08:51 PM yes magic is more powerfull =(. But its up to the DM to keep things balanced and pure warriors still usefull and funny. It will depend on your campaign and the players skills.

a permanent antimagic ray targetted on you would go a long way to bridging the gap as long as you built your character around it. (I currently have a character using that build.)
igotsmeakabob!!
05-14-06, 09:03 PM Unless you really cheese out, as in what wouldn't be done in a normal D&D campaign (at least the ones I played in), magic is limited in how often you can use it, and what level you are. Most campaigns I've played in start at level 1 and we don't make it past 15... mages don't really outpace fighters much. Spell resistance, high saving throws, extended battles without rest... these all really muck up casters.
DIESCUMDIE
05-15-06, 05:26 AM The dm can nerf anything, barbarians and undead to deny rogue his sneak attack. etc. If the dm has to go out of his way to nerf magic then magic has already won. I'm sort of surprised that it's not even a question anymore, I expected it to be a challenge but as I read it its already a given. Does phb2 change nothing?
New house rule for my games; each time a wizard chooses a spell they only get that spell on a 6 on a d6 otherwise they have to try a different spell.
UMiskatonic
05-15-06, 01:41 PM You may want to take a look at Malhavoc's Iron Heroes. It was created specifically to balance the problem you mentioned.

One of thier examples is the climb skill. A 2nd level spell, levitate, is better that a climb of 50 under most conditions.
HCCommander
05-15-06, 02:02 PM From an optimization standpoint, I'd say Wraithstrike is even better if you get it together with a high BAB because all your attacks have a chance to hit.

From a roleplaying standpoint, it's correct that non-caster classes are worse if all the players are experienced. To balance this, as a DM, I would give players of non-casters more optimization options (Feral template, unreduced Con to AC with Deepwarden...) than casters (no Incantatrix, no Divine Metamagic...). As a player, I'm playing a War Weaver at the moment, evening out the odds for the fighters (or at least this is what I intend to do, the DMs don't completely approve, especially with Polymorph).
rilem
05-15-06, 02:40 PM I'm beggining to notice the vague trend that magic is more powerfull than anything else.

Since when? Oh, that's right — since forever.

This is hardly a vague trend; it's something that been entrenched since the start of third edition (and probably before; that's just when I started paying attention). Though it's interesting that you bring this up now, when PHB II has greatly boosted the viability of fighters in late-game.

Rogues don't get eclipsed as easily as fighters do; UMD, trapfinding and some of their other abilities keep them in the game.
NoldorForce
05-15-06, 02:52 PM You may want to take a look at Malhavoc's Iron Heroes. It was created specifically to balance the problem you mentioned.Their forum is here (http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36).
ravenkith
05-15-06, 03:11 PM As I write this, I have to say that Fighters, with the right equipment, could arguably be competitive with casters. BEFORE PHB II.

Yes, I know this borders on the heretical for the CHAROP boards, but it all depends on the situation.

When caught by surprise, unprepared, I'd lay odds on the Fighter surviving whats coming over the wizard.

In a struggle against a dragon, again, with the right equipment, a Fighter can be more valuable than a caster...

Of course, this is all just my opinion. I could be wrong. But there is one thing that a fighter is better at, that magic can't really substitute for: Feats.

No other class gets +11 feats over 20 levels.

Feats are the one thing the fighter does better than anyone else.
Subedei
05-15-06, 03:20 PM Actually that's not true. Through multiclassing with several frontloaded classes one can gain far more feats than a Fighter20.
Seeker of Truth
05-15-06, 03:37 PM At lower levels figthers are extreemly viable. In fact I've never seen a caster unbalance a level 6 campaign like a fighter 4/Wolf totem Barbiarian 2 with Shock Trooper and Combat Brute. (I'm not counting pun-pun here as noone ever plays pun-pun).
Subedei
05-15-06, 03:49 PM I agree completely, fighters are very strong at lower levels. Once you gain access to things like Divine Metamagic and Polymorph and all that persistant/quickened buffing that goes on things change considerably. I'd say 6th level spells are also about the point where spells start becoming considerably too powerful for a non-spellcaster to deal with effectively.

Level 20 is just a joke as just about any caster with strong summoning spells can pull the old Time Stop => Hammer Time combo if they really want to smash you in melee combat.
lukelightning
05-15-06, 04:07 PM Rogues don't get eclipsed as easily as fighters do; UMD, trapfinding and some of their other abilities keep them in the game.

I've found that rogues are easily replaced by magic. My stupid rogue tries to sneak around? Well the caster turns invisible and flies. Find traps? Detect Traps Spell. Disable Device? Summoned creatures are often a better solution. Bluff/Diplomacy? Charms and Suggestions. Climbing around? Spider Climb or Fly.

This is especially noticable when you compare a rogue with a warlock.

The "super skills" of rogues are nothing compared to magic. All a rogue has going for him is sneak attack, which is easily countered; meanwhile casters get save-or-die spells.
rilem
05-15-06, 04:32 PM I've found that rogues are easily replaced by magic. My stupid rogue tries to sneak around? Well the caster turns invisible and flies. Find traps? Detect Traps Spell. Disable Device? Summoned creatures are often a better solution. Bluff/Diplomacy? Charms and Suggestions. Climbing around? Spider Climb or Fly.

Hide is generally a better mechanic than Invisibility, especially in late-game when everybody has see invisibility.

Find Traps is a cleric spell (not wizard) and is persistable, but you don't see many clerics taking this option when they can persist Divine Favor instead. Sure they CAN fill the Rogue's spot at this, but generally speaking they have better choices available to them, so by the laws of comparative advantage the Rogue's role is safe here.

Diplomacy is so far superior to Charm/Suggestion that it's not even funny — see any of the Diplomacy builds for evidence of this. Changeling Rogue is excellent for this with Racial Sub levels, though a Half-Elf bard is probably still the best option.

And with Use Magic Device, the Rogue can continue to scale up their abilities in late levels. Casters are still stronger overall, but traditionally 16-20 levels of Rogue has been more viable than 16-20 levels of fighter (again PHBII may change the lot of fighters).
Khazra Reborn
05-15-06, 04:47 PM Pre-polymorph errata i was using an item of permenant bite of the werebear & divine power on a commoner 20 in a melee arena and owning combat. Custom magic items are silly.
Valanthe
05-15-06, 04:52 PM A summoned monster fails to effectively disarm a self-arming trap.
Pinky's brain
05-15-06, 06:12 PM Pre-polymorph errata i was using an item of permenant bite of the werebear & divine power on a commoner 20 in a melee arena and owning combat. Custom magic items are silly.A caster who persists those spells would own more ... the problem is the spells.

As I said, custom magic items just even the playing field a bit.
DIESCUMDIE
05-15-06, 06:47 PM When I said I had noticed a trend for magic to outpower, I didn't mean magic had been getting more powerful I ment my characters mere leaning more towards magic. ;)

Iron heroes looks interesting but I don't think my players would want to deviate from the norm d'n'd rules, unless it's some sort of quick fix house rule.

Normally when I'm a player I choose something I can talk about and that won't overshadow others characters (I optimized enough to enjoy myself only).
But recently I've been dm'ng and decided to design a big boss as the last opponent before the party level up for each level. I've designed the bosses using character levels not challenge rating, basically as if they were characters. I thought this was fairer as they would actively be pursuing the characters, sniping, stealing setting up ambushes and using any means possible. Also this avoided me making monsters with lots of treasure that they didn't use, or me having to figure out how much their gear would increase their cr (like the dmg says you should).

Anyway after all these optimized bad guys I realised magic classes out power the others in pretty much every respect after they stop worrying about spells per day.
Subedei
05-15-06, 08:22 PM A caster who persists those spells would own more ... the problem is the spells.

As I said, custom magic items just even the playing field a bit.

And thus we have a bunch of werebear planetars running around biting each other.

What ever happened to Sigurd and his iron cutting sword? Did he use 20 different items to achieve victory? Since when do heros ever use shapechanging magic?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DIESCUMDIE 05-14-06, 05:41 PM	(by magic I include incarnum and psion) I'm beggining to notice the vague trend that magic is more powerfull than anything else. Yes I love to play a barbarian or fighter and I so dearly wish they were competitive that it has for a long time made me think they are. But then I saw wraithstrike, and realised it totally invalidated the fighters base attack progression. I'm sure you can think of lots of other crazy examples. Am I right? If so design a fighter tank type that can take a fully optimized rogue attack on the chin and laugh, that relies on magic. Then design a skill monkey anti-mage type that can handle all the social interaction, disarm traps, and kill an optimized mage before he knows whats happening, that relies on magic. (level 10 maybe?)
Pinky's brain 05-14-06, 05:47 PM	That's why I personally favor a good ruleset for custom magic items ... it doesn't really fix things, but at least it levels the playing field a bit.
Poder Miserável 05-14-06, 05:53 PM	yes magic is more powerfull =(. But its up to the DM to keep things balanced and pure warriors still usefull and funny. It will depend on your campaign and the players skills.
djinni 05-14-06, 08:51 PM	yes magic is more powerfull =(. But its up to the DM to keep things balanced and pure warriors still usefull and funny. It will depend on your campaign and the players skills. a permanent antimagic ray targetted on you would go a long way to bridging the gap as long as you built your character around it. (I currently have a character using that build.)
igotsmeakabob!! 05-14-06, 09:03 PM	Unless you really cheese out, as in what wouldn't be done in a normal D&D campaign (at least the ones I played in), magic is limited in how often you can use it, and what level you are. Most campaigns I've played in start at level 1 and we don't make it past 15... mages don't really outpace fighters much. Spell resistance, high saving throws, extended battles without rest... these all really muck up casters.
DIESCUMDIE 05-15-06, 05:26 AM	The dm can nerf anything, barbarians and undead to deny rogue his sneak attack. etc. If the dm has to go out of his way to nerf magic then magic has already won. I'm sort of surprised that it's not even a question anymore, I expected it to be a challenge but as I read it its already a given. Does phb2 change nothing? New house rule for my games; each time a wizard chooses a spell they only get that spell on a 6 on a d6 otherwise they have to try a different spell.
UMiskatonic 05-15-06, 01:41 PM	You may want to take a look at Malhavoc's Iron Heroes. It was created specifically to balance the problem you mentioned. One of thier examples is the climb skill. A 2nd level spell, levitate, is better that a climb of 50 under most conditions.
HCCommander 05-15-06, 02:02 PM	From an optimization standpoint, I'd say Wraithstrike is even better if you get it together with a high BAB because all your attacks have a chance to hit. From a roleplaying standpoint, it's correct that non-caster classes are worse if all the players are experienced. To balance this, as a DM, I would give players of non-casters more optimization options (Feral template, unreduced Con to AC with Deepwarden...) than casters (no Incantatrix, no Divine Metamagic...). As a player, I'm playing a War Weaver at the moment, evening out the odds for the fighters (or at least this is what I intend to do, the DMs don't completely approve, especially with Polymorph).
rilem 05-15-06, 02:40 PM	I'm beggining to notice the vague trend that magic is more powerfull than anything else. Since when? Oh, that's right — since forever. This is hardly a vague trend; it's something that been entrenched since the start of third edition (and probably before; that's just when I started paying attention). Though it's interesting that you bring this up now, when PHB II has greatly boosted the viability of fighters in late-game. Rogues don't get eclipsed as easily as fighters do; UMD, trapfinding and some of their other abilities keep them in the game.
NoldorForce 05-15-06, 02:52 PM	You may want to take a look at Malhavoc's Iron Heroes. It was created specifically to balance the problem you mentioned.Their forum is here (http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36).
ravenkith 05-15-06, 03:11 PM	As I write this, I have to say that Fighters, with the right equipment, could arguably be competitive with casters. BEFORE PHB II. Yes, I know this borders on the heretical for the CHAROP boards, but it all depends on the situation. When caught by surprise, unprepared, I'd lay odds on the Fighter surviving whats coming over the wizard. In a struggle against a dragon, again, with the right equipment, a Fighter can be more valuable than a caster... Of course, this is all just my opinion. I could be wrong. But there is one thing that a fighter is better at, that magic can't really substitute for: Feats. No other class gets +11 feats over 20 levels. Feats are the one thing the fighter does better than anyone else.
Subedei 05-15-06, 03:20 PM	Actually that's not true. Through multiclassing with several frontloaded classes one can gain far more feats than a Fighter20.
Seeker of Truth 05-15-06, 03:37 PM	At lower levels figthers are extreemly viable. In fact I've never seen a caster unbalance a level 6 campaign like a fighter 4/Wolf totem Barbiarian 2 with Shock Trooper and Combat Brute. (I'm not counting pun-pun here as noone ever plays pun-pun).
Subedei 05-15-06, 03:49 PM	I agree completely, fighters are very strong at lower levels. Once you gain access to things like Divine Metamagic and Polymorph and all that persistant/quickened buffing that goes on things change considerably. I'd say 6th level spells are also about the point where spells start becoming considerably too powerful for a non-spellcaster to deal with effectively. Level 20 is just a joke as just about any caster with strong summoning spells can pull the old Time Stop => Hammer Time combo if they really want to smash you in melee combat.
lukelightning 05-15-06, 04:07 PM	Rogues don't get eclipsed as easily as fighters do; UMD, trapfinding and some of their other abilities keep them in the game. I've found that rogues are easily replaced by magic. My stupid rogue tries to sneak around? Well the caster turns invisible and flies. Find traps? Detect Traps Spell. Disable Device? Summoned creatures are often a better solution. Bluff/Diplomacy? Charms and Suggestions. Climbing around? Spider Climb or Fly. This is especially noticable when you compare a rogue with a warlock. The "super skills" of rogues are nothing compared to magic. All a rogue has going for him is sneak attack, which is easily countered; meanwhile casters get save-or-die spells.
rilem 05-15-06, 04:32 PM	I've found that rogues are easily replaced by magic. My stupid rogue tries to sneak around? Well the caster turns invisible and flies. Find traps? Detect Traps Spell. Disable Device? Summoned creatures are often a better solution. Bluff/Diplomacy? Charms and Suggestions. Climbing around? Spider Climb or Fly. Hide is generally a better mechanic than Invisibility, especially in late-game when everybody has see invisibility. Find Traps is a cleric spell (not wizard) and is persistable, but you don't see many clerics taking this option when they can persist Divine Favor instead. Sure they CAN fill the Rogue's spot at this, but generally speaking they have better choices available to them, so by the laws of comparative advantage the Rogue's role is safe here. Diplomacy is so far superior to Charm/Suggestion that it's not even funny — see any of the Diplomacy builds for evidence of this. Changeling Rogue is excellent for this with Racial Sub levels, though a Half-Elf bard is probably still the best option. And with Use Magic Device, the Rogue can continue to scale up their abilities in late levels. Casters are still stronger overall, but traditionally 16-20 levels of Rogue has been more viable than 16-20 levels of fighter (again PHBII may change the lot of fighters).
Khazra Reborn 05-15-06, 04:47 PM	Pre-polymorph errata i was using an item of permenant bite of the werebear & divine power on a commoner 20 in a melee arena and owning combat. Custom magic items are silly.
Valanthe 05-15-06, 04:52 PM	A summoned monster fails to effectively disarm a self-arming trap.
Pinky's brain 05-15-06, 06:12 PM	Pre-polymorph errata i was using an item of permenant bite of the werebear & divine power on a commoner 20 in a melee arena and owning combat. Custom magic items are silly.A caster who persists those spells would own more ... the problem is the spells. As I said, custom magic items just even the playing field a bit.
DIESCUMDIE 05-15-06, 06:47 PM	When I said I had noticed a trend for magic to outpower, I didn't mean magic had been getting more powerful I ment my characters mere leaning more towards magic. ;) Iron heroes looks interesting but I don't think my players would want to deviate from the norm d'n'd rules, unless it's some sort of quick fix house rule. Normally when I'm a player I choose something I can talk about and that won't overshadow others characters (I optimized enough to enjoy myself only). But recently I've been dm'ng and decided to design a big boss as the last opponent before the party level up for each level. I've designed the bosses using character levels not challenge rating, basically as if they were characters. I thought this was fairer as they would actively be pursuing the characters, sniping, stealing setting up ambushes and using any means possible. Also this avoided me making monsters with lots of treasure that they didn't use, or me having to figure out how much their gear would increase their cr (like the dmg says you should). Anyway after all these optimized bad guys I realised magic classes out power the others in pretty much every respect after they stop worrying about spells per day.
Subedei 05-15-06, 08:22 PM	A caster who persists those spells would own more ... the problem is the spells. As I said, custom magic items just even the playing field a bit. And thus we have a bunch of werebear planetars running around biting each other. What ever happened to Sigurd and his iron cutting sword? Did he use 20 different items to achieve victory? Since when do heros ever use shapechanging magic?