AoO and tripping [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO and tripping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
chuff80
03-15-06, 10:17 AM can you do this with improved trip? I have a player who constantly uses his spiked chain to trip opponents as an attack of opportunity, then with improved trip taking the extra free attack to damage them, then of course, they can't get up b/c he'll just trip them again with his spiked chain. AoO rules say only one attack per opponent. What say you?
Timlagor
03-15-06, 10:58 AM He's mostly right.

The AoO for someone getting up happens while they are still prone so you can't trip them on that one.

Presumably he has combat reflexes

The rules say only one-AoO-for-moving-out-of-a-threatened-square per round per opponent. You can have as many AoOs against one opponent for different reasons as you like.
lostone
03-15-06, 02:09 PM If the opponent keeps performing actions that provoke an attack of opportunity, the player can keep making attacks of opportunity (until he runs out of the ones Combat Reflexes gives him). And I'm not sure Timlagor is right about not being able to trip someone standing up from prone on that attack of opportunity (the rules don't seem too clear on that one).

Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.That last line doesn't say when the attack of opportunity occurs, my guess is that it is while the character is in the process of standing up. Depending on your interpretation that could mean that you could take another trip attack to keep them from standing up.

The Improved Trip abuse he is using only gets worse when you add in Karmic Strike, and in epic level when you take Improved Combat Reflexes.

If you don't want him tripping everything in sight, start using larger opponents (bigger size means bigger bonus against trips) and strong opponents (more strength means more bonus on the opposed roll).

It should be noted that bigger and stronger opponents tend to become more common at higher levels, tripping builds usually lose effectiveness as they gain levels. But if you are one of those DMs who ends a game at level ten because they don't like high powered games, then he'll probably be an effective tripper the entire campaign.

Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060307a) is currently covering Trip, but only Part 1 is out so far and it does not cover this situation, maybe one of the future installments will.

I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to e-mail Skip Williams (the writer of the Rules of the Game article), but I don't remember where to find the e-mail address for his Sage Advice (should be in the back of a dragon magazine where the Sage Advice column is). Has someone else taken over that? I never pay attention to who it is any more.

Edit: I noticed that on the FAQ they have sageadvice@paizo.com
Seeker of Truth
03-15-06, 02:29 PM I would like to re-iterate that attacks of opportunity happen before the events that trigger them (the only exception being karmic strike akaik). You can not trip a prone target therefor you can not trip a traget with the AoO you get for him standing up.
the shaderaven
03-15-06, 02:29 PM The attack of opportunity always happens before the action that provokes it (with karmic strike being the only exception). So by the raw nothing stops you from tripping prone character you is standing up (though he will get +4 stability bonus for being prone I guess :D ... thats as stable as it gets), but your action will still happen before him standing up - and after that he will stand up normally.
Btw, remember that tumble and spring attack negate his initial attack of opportunity... not to mention that the opponents can have the improved trip feat as well... or they can just sunder his spiked chain if it gets in the way too much.
Timlagor
03-15-06, 02:40 PM See the FAQ if you still don't believe it.
lostone
03-15-06, 02:42 PM See the FAQ if you still don't believe it.You'll have to be more specific, I looked for the tripping a prone character that was in the process of standing up and did not see it.
mountc
03-15-06, 02:43 PM Timlagor is right. It was covered in either an article or the FAQ, but the AoO for him standing from prone doesn't keep him prone. He moves to stand and you attack, then he finishes his movement and is standing. Wasting your AoO to trip a prone character does nothing. You can't trip someone who is prone. You can however, ready an action to trip someone once they stand.

That's how I do it.
lostone
03-15-06, 02:47 PM Timlagor is right. It was covered in either an article or the FAQ, but the AoO for him standing from prone doesn't keep him prone. He moves to stand and you attack, then he finishes his movement and is standing. Wasting your AoO to trip a prone character does nothing. You can't trip someone who is prone. You can however, ready an action to trip someone once they stand.Personally I think it makes sense tripping someone who is standing up from prone, the attack of opportunity is triggered because they are in the process of standing up, so they are easy to knock off balance and effectively trip again.

Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it? If the action triggering it hasn't started yet, you can't know it is going to happen. You can't interrupt spellcasting if it hasn't started yet, because if it hasn't started then you aren't really interrupting anything.
Timlagor
03-15-06, 02:54 PM Page 36, 1st question
Mr. Dog
03-15-06, 03:08 PM In general, attacks of opportunity precede the resolution of the action that provoked them. For example, a wizard attempting to cast a spell in a threatened area is hit before the spell is actually cast or resolved. Likewise, a grappling character without the correct feats can be hit with an AoO before getting to make the grapple check.

There are a few exceptions, such as Karmic Strike, but those are clearly spelled out in the description of the ability.

As such:
1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand.
2. They are still prone.
3. The threatening character may elect to make an attack of opportunity.
4. The attacker gets a +4 to hit for attacking a prone target.
5. Based on the results, the victim may now complete the action that provoked the AoO (standing) unless they have been prevented from doing so (i.e. killed, knocked to -4 hp, etc.).
lostone
03-15-06, 03:10 PM Page 36, 1st questionOf what? I'm looking at the main faq from 2/22/2006 and the first question on p36 is about drawing weapons, nothing about attack of opportunity unless you look at the part about drawing a weapon from a container like a backpack...
Maliseth Tyranis
03-15-06, 03:14 PM Personally I think it makes sense tripping someone who is standing up from prone, the attack of opportunity is triggered because they are in the process of standing up, so they are easy to knock off balance and effectively trip again.

Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it? If the action triggering it hasn't started yet, you can't know it is going to happen. You can't interrupt spellcasting if it hasn't started yet, because if it hasn't started then you aren't really interrupting anything.

Best Explanation that I see.
Gnarl
03-15-06, 03:21 PM Btw, remember that tumble and spring attack negate his initial attack of opportunity...

I believe you are mistaken on this part.

Standing Up is a Move Action and not a Move (check PHB p84 and p143). I might be wrong but I don't think Tumble and Standing Up interract the way you say they do.

As for the Spring Attack feat, well since you need to move at least 5' before and after the attack, it doesn't work. This one I'm sure of.
Thanatos42
03-15-06, 03:24 PM It's page 39 in the new FAQ. I found it in under 5 minutes by searching for the word trip. Seriously, it's in there - just take the time to read it.
lostone
03-15-06, 03:26 PM As such:
1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand.
2. They are still prone.
3. The threatening character may elect to make an attack of opportunity.
4. The attacker gets a +4 to hit for attacking a prone target.
5. Based on the results, the victim may now complete the action that provoked the AoO (standing) unless they have been prevented from doing so (i.e. killed, knocked to -4 hp, etc.).In movies it seems like someone is always trying to stand up and getting kicked or hit on the back with a weapon (usually a pipe) which knocks them back to the ground, that is effectively a trip attack, and it makes sense here to.

1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand. An AoO isn't triggered yet because the victim has not moved for the aggressor to know what is happening. So far the intent to stand is known to the victim and otherwise out of character knowledge, movement hasn't started.
2. They are still prone.
3. The victim begins to stand up, either by sitting up (if they were on their back) or getting on hands and knees (if they were on their stomach).
4. The aggressor attacks them either by kicking or hitting them on the back or chest or head (represented by a trip roll and then an improved trip attack), preventing them standing and forcing them back to prone. If the trip attack fails it could be represented by the victim rolling out of the way of the attack.
5. The attempt to stand fails, because the victim was effectively "tripped" again. If the trip attempt failed, the victim is now standing up.
Gnarl
03-15-06, 03:46 PM Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it?

FAQ page 39, left column, 5th paragraph.

It says:
All attack of opportunity happen before the action that triggered them (see Chapter 8). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who's getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however.

As a side note, if you resolve the attack of opportunity after the action that triggers it, things can get fun.

Two opponents with a reach of 5' don't provoke attacks of opportunity against one another when moving. Why? Simply because you're no longer within threatening range after a move. How logical does that sound?
lostone
03-15-06, 03:50 PM It's page 39 in the new FAQ. I found it in under 5 minutes by searching for the word trip. Seriously, it's in there - just take the time to read it.I see it, I do not agree with it.

The Sage makes mistakes, and has corrected himself and reversed decisions in the past.

The text in the PHB don't seem to support it.

"An attack of opportunity 'interrupts' the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

You can't interrupt something if it hasn't started. Therefore the person standing up is somewhere between "prone" and "standing" and is logically trippable.
Adrian_Crane
03-15-06, 04:00 PM Sounds like a DM judgement call on how to rule AoOs. Personally I'd side with the "you can't interrupt what hasn't started" argument.
Seeker of Truth
03-15-06, 04:03 PM Iostone the rules just do not support your assertion. Play by a house rule if you like. When a threatened prone charater begins to stand up you interupt the action getting an attack. A trip against a prone target (which I believe most DMs wouldn't even allow even if the rules don't necisarily prohibit it) certainly wouldn't leave the caracter in a state where is action of standing up wasn't valid. So after you're finished tripping him he finishes standing up. It's pretty plain if you read the rules carefully that this is both how they work and how they were intended to work.
Gnarl
03-15-06, 04:05 PM I see it, I do not agree with it.

House rules are fine. One of my players used the tactic (he told me it worked, I never checked) and it was very ugly.

The text in the PHB don't seem to support it.

You're right, it doesn't realy support either versions. "Interrupts" is fairly blury and needed clarifications (hence the FAQ).

If you don't like what's in the FAQ it's cool. If you're the DM, it's your game, no matter what the FAQ says. If you're the player, well now you know that if your DM says no, he's only applying the rules.
Thanatos42
03-15-06, 04:06 PM Of course you could always house rule otherwise. But the original question was if a PC could do this by the rules, and by the rules right now, he can't. If the sage changes this down the road, then the PC can.

Also, the prone attack feat on a few of your NPC's could come in handy to slow down a tripper.
Caelic
03-15-06, 04:08 PM From a sheer balance standpoint on this one, I'm willing to set aside a little bit of "common sense" and go with the rules. Otherwise, once a character is down, he'll never get up again.

This is one of those cases, I think, where they chose what plays better over what makes more sense in RL.
Senevri
03-15-06, 04:19 PM "An attack of Opportunity interrupts the flow of actions"
"A prone character cannot be tripped".
"Standing up from Prone is a Move action which provokes an attack of opportunity"

Actually, one way to translate that would be that simply hitting the opponent
during the AoO would prevent them from standing up.

Then again, a character leaving a threatened square, while provoking an AoO
isn't prevented from moving.

And, again, having no consequences what-so-ever at all from the AoO seems
somehow wrong, too. Realistically, you _can_ trip characters while they're
standing up, but keeping someone constantly tripped is also problematic...

I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling...
Caelic
03-15-06, 04:55 PM I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling...

In a lot of ways, that'd be even worse, Sen. Oh, goody--I get up, and now I get to...stand there, and let you trip me and take a full attack NEXT round.

There are LOTS of things that would "make sense," but don't play well in the game. It makes sense that if I whack you solidly with a sword once, you're out of the fight...but that doesn't play so well in the game.
Caelic
03-15-06, 04:55 PM I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling...

In a lot of ways, that'd be even worse, Sen. Oh, goody--I get up, and now I get to...stand there, and let you trip me and take a full attack NEXT round.

There are LOTS of things that would "make sense," but don't play well in the game. It makes sense that if I whack you solidly with a sword once, you're out of the fight...but that doesn't play so well in the game.

I'd actually like to see a rule put in place stipulating that you can't trip a prone opponent, to prevent the cheese of Wildshaped Dire Wolf Druids with Improved Trip getting an infinite attack loop.
Lokathor
03-15-06, 07:05 PM And, again, having no consequences what-so-ever at all from the AoO seems somehow wrong, too.

Let's say you take 2d4+4+1d6 damage (16 Str, fire element +1 chain), and since you had to spend a move to stand, now you can't make a full attack. Would you say that you didn't face any consequences there? Not to mention that all the melee allies of that attacker got +4 to hit you for a round, and you possibly also took the initial extra hit from the attacker when they used improved trip.
chuff80
03-16-06, 10:03 AM Wow, maybe I should read the FAQ before I ask a question. Thanks for all of the input friends. The character I'm DMing...he also enlarges himself, with his spiked chain, so effectively has a 20' threat range, with combat reflexes, and improved trip. People don't like to melee with him. What does work? When the BBEG casts Power Word Blind...effectively negating that fighter. That's what happened last session. :D
lostone
03-16-06, 10:14 AM Wow, maybe I should read the FAQ before I ask a question. Thanks for all of the input friends. The character I'm DMing...he also enlarges himself, with his spiked chain, so effectively has a 20' threat range, with combat reflexes, and improved trip. People don't like to melee with him. What does work? When the BBEG casts Power Word Blind...effectively negating that fighter. That's what happened last session. :DSunder works wonders...as does disarm, or anything that incapacitates him.

How is his chain enchanted? If it doesn't have ghost touch but is magical he only has a 50% chance of hitting anything incorporeal or ethereal, assuming he can even see them.

Poisons on arrows can lower his strength making him less effective as a tripper.
Fwib
03-16-06, 12:55 PM I played a chain tripper character once - he was mostly quite effective.

Then that game moreorless ended and every single GM in the group ruled that in future standing up did not provoke.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chuff80 03-15-06, 10:17 AM	can you do this with improved trip? I have a player who constantly uses his spiked chain to trip opponents as an attack of opportunity, then with improved trip taking the extra free attack to damage them, then of course, they can't get up b/c he'll just trip them again with his spiked chain. AoO rules say only one attack per opponent. What say you?
Timlagor 03-15-06, 10:58 AM	He's mostly right. The AoO for someone getting up happens while they are still prone so you can't trip them on that one. Presumably he has combat reflexes The rules say only one-AoO-for-moving-out-of-a-threatened-square per round per opponent. You can have as many AoOs against one opponent for different reasons as you like.
lostone 03-15-06, 02:09 PM	If the opponent keeps performing actions that provoke an attack of opportunity, the player can keep making attacks of opportunity (until he runs out of the ones Combat Reflexes gives him). And I'm not sure Timlagor is right about not being able to trip someone standing up from prone on that attack of opportunity (the rules don't seem too clear on that one). Prone: The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.That last line doesn't say when the attack of opportunity occurs, my guess is that it is while the character is in the process of standing up. Depending on your interpretation that could mean that you could take another trip attack to keep them from standing up. The Improved Trip abuse he is using only gets worse when you add in Karmic Strike, and in epic level when you take Improved Combat Reflexes. If you don't want him tripping everything in sight, start using larger opponents (bigger size means bigger bonus against trips) and strong opponents (more strength means more bonus on the opposed roll). It should be noted that bigger and stronger opponents tend to become more common at higher levels, tripping builds usually lose effectiveness as they gain levels. But if you are one of those DMs who ends a game at level ten because they don't like high powered games, then he'll probably be an effective tripper the entire campaign. Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060307a) is currently covering Trip, but only Part 1 is out so far and it does not cover this situation, maybe one of the future installments will. I don't know if you still can, but you used to be able to e-mail Skip Williams (the writer of the Rules of the Game article), but I don't remember where to find the e-mail address for his Sage Advice (should be in the back of a dragon magazine where the Sage Advice column is). Has someone else taken over that? I never pay attention to who it is any more. Edit: I noticed that on the FAQ they have sageadvice@paizo.com
Seeker of Truth 03-15-06, 02:29 PM	I would like to re-iterate that attacks of opportunity happen before the events that trigger them (the only exception being karmic strike akaik). You can not trip a prone target therefor you can not trip a traget with the AoO you get for him standing up.
the shaderaven 03-15-06, 02:29 PM	The attack of opportunity always happens before the action that provokes it (with karmic strike being the only exception). So by the raw nothing stops you from tripping prone character you is standing up (though he will get +4 stability bonus for being prone I guess :D ... thats as stable as it gets), but your action will still happen before him standing up - and after that he will stand up normally. Btw, remember that tumble and spring attack negate his initial attack of opportunity... not to mention that the opponents can have the improved trip feat as well... or they can just sunder his spiked chain if it gets in the way too much.
Timlagor 03-15-06, 02:40 PM	See the FAQ if you still don't believe it.
lostone 03-15-06, 02:42 PM	See the FAQ if you still don't believe it.You'll have to be more specific, I looked for the tripping a prone character that was in the process of standing up and did not see it.
mountc 03-15-06, 02:43 PM	Timlagor is right. It was covered in either an article or the FAQ, but the AoO for him standing from prone doesn't keep him prone. He moves to stand and you attack, then he finishes his movement and is standing. Wasting your AoO to trip a prone character does nothing. You can't trip someone who is prone. You can however, ready an action to trip someone once they stand. That's how I do it.
lostone 03-15-06, 02:47 PM	Timlagor is right. It was covered in either an article or the FAQ, but the AoO for him standing from prone doesn't keep him prone. He moves to stand and you attack, then he finishes his movement and is standing. Wasting your AoO to trip a prone character does nothing. You can't trip someone who is prone. You can however, ready an action to trip someone once they stand.Personally I think it makes sense tripping someone who is standing up from prone, the attack of opportunity is triggered because they are in the process of standing up, so they are easy to knock off balance and effectively trip again. Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it? If the action triggering it hasn't started yet, you can't know it is going to happen. You can't interrupt spellcasting if it hasn't started yet, because if it hasn't started then you aren't really interrupting anything.
Timlagor 03-15-06, 02:54 PM	Page 36, 1st question
Mr. Dog 03-15-06, 03:08 PM	In general, attacks of opportunity precede the resolution of the action that provoked them. For example, a wizard attempting to cast a spell in a threatened area is hit before the spell is actually cast or resolved. Likewise, a grappling character without the correct feats can be hit with an AoO before getting to make the grapple check. There are a few exceptions, such as Karmic Strike, but those are clearly spelled out in the description of the ability. As such: 1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand. 2. They are still prone. 3. The threatening character may elect to make an attack of opportunity. 4. The attacker gets a +4 to hit for attacking a prone target. 5. Based on the results, the victim may now complete the action that provoked the AoO (standing) unless they have been prevented from doing so (i.e. killed, knocked to -4 hp, etc.).
lostone 03-15-06, 03:10 PM	Page 36, 1st questionOf what? I'm looking at the main faq from 2/22/2006 and the first question on p36 is about drawing weapons, nothing about attack of opportunity unless you look at the part about drawing a weapon from a container like a backpack...
Maliseth Tyranis 03-15-06, 03:14 PM	Personally I think it makes sense tripping someone who is standing up from prone, the attack of opportunity is triggered because they are in the process of standing up, so they are easy to knock off balance and effectively trip again. Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it? If the action triggering it hasn't started yet, you can't know it is going to happen. You can't interrupt spellcasting if it hasn't started yet, because if it hasn't started then you aren't really interrupting anything. Best Explanation that I see.
Gnarl 03-15-06, 03:21 PM	Btw, remember that tumble and spring attack negate his initial attack of opportunity... I believe you are mistaken on this part. Standing Up is a Move Action and not a Move (check PHB p84 and p143). I might be wrong but I don't think Tumble and Standing Up interract the way you say they do. As for the Spring Attack feat, well since you need to move at least 5' before and after the attack, it doesn't work. This one I'm sure of.
Thanatos42 03-15-06, 03:24 PM	It's page 39 in the new FAQ. I found it in under 5 minutes by searching for the word trip. Seriously, it's in there - just take the time to read it.
lostone 03-15-06, 03:26 PM	As such: 1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand. 2. They are still prone. 3. The threatening character may elect to make an attack of opportunity. 4. The attacker gets a +4 to hit for attacking a prone target. 5. Based on the results, the victim may now complete the action that provoked the AoO (standing) unless they have been prevented from doing so (i.e. killed, knocked to -4 hp, etc.).In movies it seems like someone is always trying to stand up and getting kicked or hit on the back with a weapon (usually a pipe) which knocks them back to the ground, that is effectively a trip attack, and it makes sense here to. 1. A tripped (and now prone) victim announces the intent to stand. An AoO isn't triggered yet because the victim has not moved for the aggressor to know what is happening. So far the intent to stand is known to the victim and otherwise out of character knowledge, movement hasn't started. 2. They are still prone. 3. The victim begins to stand up, either by sitting up (if they were on their back) or getting on hands and knees (if they were on their stomach). 4. The aggressor attacks them either by kicking or hitting them on the back or chest or head (represented by a trip roll and then an improved trip attack), preventing them standing and forcing them back to prone. If the trip attack fails it could be represented by the victim rolling out of the way of the attack. 5. The attempt to stand fails, because the victim was effectively "tripped" again. If the trip attempt failed, the victim is now standing up.
Gnarl 03-15-06, 03:46 PM	Where is everyone seeing that the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that triggers it? FAQ page 39, left column, 5th paragraph. It says: All attack of opportunity happen before the action that triggered them (see Chapter 8). When you make an attack of opportunity against someone who's getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after he gets up, however. As a side note, if you resolve the attack of opportunity after the action that triggers it, things can get fun. Two opponents with a reach of 5' don't provoke attacks of opportunity against one another when moving. Why? Simply because you're no longer within threatening range after a move. How logical does that sound?
lostone 03-15-06, 03:50 PM	It's page 39 in the new FAQ. I found it in under 5 minutes by searching for the word trip. Seriously, it's in there - just take the time to read it.I see it, I do not agree with it. The Sage makes mistakes, and has corrected himself and reversed decisions in the past. The text in the PHB don't seem to support it. "An attack of opportunity 'interrupts' the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)." You can't interrupt something if it hasn't started. Therefore the person standing up is somewhere between "prone" and "standing" and is logically trippable.
Adrian_Crane 03-15-06, 04:00 PM	Sounds like a DM judgement call on how to rule AoOs. Personally I'd side with the "you can't interrupt what hasn't started" argument.
Seeker of Truth 03-15-06, 04:03 PM	Iostone the rules just do not support your assertion. Play by a house rule if you like. When a threatened prone charater begins to stand up you interupt the action getting an attack. A trip against a prone target (which I believe most DMs wouldn't even allow even if the rules don't necisarily prohibit it) certainly wouldn't leave the caracter in a state where is action of standing up wasn't valid. So after you're finished tripping him he finishes standing up. It's pretty plain if you read the rules carefully that this is both how they work and how they were intended to work.
Gnarl 03-15-06, 04:05 PM	I see it, I do not agree with it. House rules are fine. One of my players used the tactic (he told me it worked, I never checked) and it was very ugly. The text in the PHB don't seem to support it. You're right, it doesn't realy support either versions. "Interrupts" is fairly blury and needed clarifications (hence the FAQ). If you don't like what's in the FAQ it's cool. If you're the DM, it's your game, no matter what the FAQ says. If you're the player, well now you know that if your DM says no, he's only applying the rules.
Thanatos42 03-15-06, 04:06 PM	Of course you could always house rule otherwise. But the original question was if a PC could do this by the rules, and by the rules right now, he can't. If the sage changes this down the road, then the PC can. Also, the prone attack feat on a few of your NPC's could come in handy to slow down a tripper.
Caelic 03-15-06, 04:08 PM	From a sheer balance standpoint on this one, I'm willing to set aside a little bit of "common sense" and go with the rules. Otherwise, once a character is down, he'll never get up again. This is one of those cases, I think, where they chose what plays better over what makes more sense in RL.
Senevri 03-15-06, 04:19 PM	"An attack of Opportunity interrupts the flow of actions" "A prone character cannot be tripped". "Standing up from Prone is a Move action which provokes an attack of opportunity" Actually, one way to translate that would be that simply hitting the opponent during the AoO would prevent them from standing up. Then again, a character leaving a threatened square, while provoking an AoO isn't prevented from moving. And, again, having no consequences what-so-ever at all from the AoO seems somehow wrong, too. Realistically, you _can_ trip characters while they're standing up, but keeping someone constantly tripped is also problematic... I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling...
Caelic 03-15-06, 04:55 PM	I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling... In a lot of ways, that'd be even worse, Sen. Oh, goody--I get up, and now I get to...stand there, and let you trip me and take a full attack NEXT round. There are LOTS of things that would "make sense," but don't play well in the game. It makes sense that if I whack you solidly with a sword once, you're out of the fight...but that doesn't play so well in the game.
Caelic 03-15-06, 04:55 PM	I'd probably house rule that if one gets hit by an AoO while standing up, they'd lose their Standard Action, depending on some-check-or-other (opposed STR?). But, that's house ruling... In a lot of ways, that'd be even worse, Sen. Oh, goody--I get up, and now I get to...stand there, and let you trip me and take a full attack NEXT round. There are LOTS of things that would "make sense," but don't play well in the game. It makes sense that if I whack you solidly with a sword once, you're out of the fight...but that doesn't play so well in the game. I'd actually like to see a rule put in place stipulating that you can't trip a prone opponent, to prevent the cheese of Wildshaped Dire Wolf Druids with Improved Trip getting an infinite attack loop.
Lokathor 03-15-06, 07:05 PM	And, again, having no consequences what-so-ever at all from the AoO seems somehow wrong, too. Let's say you take 2d4+4+1d6 damage (16 Str, fire element +1 chain), and since you had to spend a move to stand, now you can't make a full attack. Would you say that you didn't face any consequences there? Not to mention that all the melee allies of that attacker got +4 to hit you for a round, and you possibly also took the initial extra hit from the attacker when they used improved trip.
chuff80 03-16-06, 10:03 AM	Wow, maybe I should read the FAQ before I ask a question. Thanks for all of the input friends. The character I'm DMing...he also enlarges himself, with his spiked chain, so effectively has a 20' threat range, with combat reflexes, and improved trip. People don't like to melee with him. What does work? When the BBEG casts Power Word Blind...effectively negating that fighter. That's what happened last session. :D
lostone 03-16-06, 10:14 AM	Wow, maybe I should read the FAQ before I ask a question. Thanks for all of the input friends. The character I'm DMing...he also enlarges himself, with his spiked chain, so effectively has a 20' threat range, with combat reflexes, and improved trip. People don't like to melee with him. What does work? When the BBEG casts Power Word Blind...effectively negating that fighter. That's what happened last session. :DSunder works wonders...as does disarm, or anything that incapacitates him. How is his chain enchanted? If it doesn't have ghost touch but is magical he only has a 50% chance of hitting anything incorporeal or ethereal, assuming he can even see them. Poisons on arrows can lower his strength making him less effective as a tripper.
Fwib 03-16-06, 12:55 PM	I played a chain tripper character once - he was mostly quite effective. Then that game moreorless ended and every single GM in the group ruled that in future standing up did not provoke.