Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raineym 06-12-06, 12:15 PM	I created an AoO/Battlefield Control Fighter build for an Eberron game that will be starting soon, and here is what I came up with for, hopefully, the last build. The books allowed without DM consent are CORE, MiniHB, PHBII, Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete [Adventurer|Arcane|Divine|Psionic|Warrior], and any Eberron specific. Everything in the build not in these books has been approved by the DM in this case. The information below is what the character will be at 20th level, not including any magical items (updated with the info gathered from this post and those posts linked therein): Aeo Blackstone Chaotic Good Human Fighter 20 Stats: Str 18 (+ 1 increase), Dex 22 (+4 increases), Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 11 Initiative: +6 (Dex) Hit Point Average: 170 Base Attack Matrix: +20/+15/+10/+5 Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +6 Proposed Feat Progression: Level Feat (Source) Gained As ... ----- ---------------------------------------------------- -------------------- 1 Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) 1st-Level Character Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain (PHB) Human Bonus Feat Combat Expertise (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat Combat Reflexes (PHB) Shaky Character Flaw Weapon Finesse (PHB) Murky-Eyed Character Flaw 2 Improved Trip (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 3 Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer 3rd-Level Character 4 Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 5 6 Improved Combat Reflexes (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) 6th-Level Character Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 7 8 Dodge (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 9 Mobility (PHB) 9th-Level Character 10 Double Hit (Miniature's Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 11 12 Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) 12th-Level Character Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) Fighter Bonus Feat 13 14 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 15 Greater Combat Reflexes (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) 15th-Level Character 16 Knock-Down (Sword and Fist) or Overpowering Attack (PHBII) Fighter Bonus Feat 17 18 Close-Quarters Fighting (Complete Warrior) 18th-Level Character Power Attack (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 19 20 Hold the Line (Complete Warrior) Fighter Bonus Feat Skills (in ranks): Skill Ranks Progression ---------- ----- ----------- Bluff 11 (Cross Class; 2 Ranks Lvl 1, .5 Rank Lvl 2-19) Climb 16 (3 Ranks Lvl 1, 1 Rank Lvls 2-3, 5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20) Intimidate 22 (3 Ranks Lvl 1, 1 Rank Lvl 2-19, 2 Ranks Lvl 20) Jump 16 (3 Ranks Lvl 1, 1 Rank Lvls 3-4, 67-, 9-10, 12-13, 15-16, 18-20) Swim 16 (3 Ranks Lvl 1, 1 Rank Lvls 2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11, 13-14, 16-17, 19-20) Tumble 11 (Cross Class; 2 Ranks Lvl 1, .5 Rank Lvl 2-19) Special thanks go out to Snow Savant and his Gatling Chain Gun.
Pallin Rahl 06-12-06, 01:18 PM	Stats: Str 23 (18 + 5 increases), Dex 17, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 11 Having your Str at 23 really doesn't offer you any benefits beyond what you'd have with a 22 Str. ...especially as you have a better place to put it, IMHO. Try this: Stats: Str 22 (18 + 4 increases), Dex 18 (17 + 1 increase), Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 11 You lose nothing for dropping your Str from 23 to 22... and from bringing your Dex up to 18 (from 17) you gain: +1 AC +1 Reflex Save +1 More AoO you can make a round (via Combat Reflexes) +1 To all your Reflex skills +1 Initiative
Xeraph 06-12-06, 01:30 PM	TWF is considered a bad choice of tactic if you dont have a damage source other than strenght. Even with the Double Hit and Twoweapon Rend trick, which is nice, I believe a Power Attack with a trustworty falchion up to 8 times a round is worth more. How is that possible? With Combat Relfexes, Improved Combat Reflexes and Greater Combat Reflexes. Ive been thinking, I wonder if a Psychic Warrior would be a better counter attacker? Sure the fighter deals double damage and such. But the Psychic Warrior heals half of his damage back, can boost his scores, get damage reduction, you name it. Hmm... Just a thought.
LogicNinja 06-12-06, 01:33 PM	You're missing a couple of important things: -The first is reach, vital for any AoO/Karmic Striking build. Get a Blunt Link Chain, or a Guisarme and armor spikes, or anything else that gives you 5' and 10' reach. You'll want to have your party wizard memorize Enlarge Person a lot, too. If you want to use Double Hit, the Chain (or Blunt Link Chain) is your best bet; alternatively, get your DM to allow the spiked chain as a double weapon (but with a 5' range when used that way). The Short Haft feat (PHB II) can allow you to TWF at 5' with a Guisarme and armor spikes. -Stand Still, a non-psionic feat from the XPH (find it in the SRD); this lets you control the battlefield by keeping people in place. If you ready an action, this has especially great synergy with Defensive Sweep. -The level 16 fighter substitution feature from the PHB II that lets you make one attack as a full-round action and do double damage and then do double damage on all your AoOs. AoOs from Karmic Strike are the bread and butter of any double-hitting karmic striker; as is, any Large monster can just smack you around safely from out of your reach. -Improved Trip! Especially at lower levels, tripping is a *huge* part of battlefield control. Improved Disarm can be nice but isn't necessary as tripped opponents are at an effective -8 on the opposed check. You also have a bunch of stuff that should probably be cut out. -Weapon Focus/Specialization: +1 hit/+2 damage just isn't good enough for two feats. You have better things to use the feats on (see above). -Oversized TWF. If you plan on dual-wielding longswords, get it early; if you don't, there's no point in getting it late. Besides, you need a reach weapon anyway. -Sidestep Charge. You have reach. With Stand Still and/or Improved Trip, chargers aren't getting close. Consider Close-Quarters Combat (Complete Warrior) instead, which will save you from grapples. -Cleave and Great Cleave. At the level you take it, Cleave is pretty pointless; Great Cleave is totally pointless as a feat because anything you can Great Cleave you can just as easily kill without it. Drop these like... something you drop really fast. A horse? (Horses are heavy!) Xeraph--Psychic Warrior just don't get enough feats!
Xeraph 06-12-06, 02:00 PM	Xeraph--Psychic Warrior just don't get enough feats!Guess its all about the feats now'a days. :D Heres an idea anyways. 1 - Flaw (Shaky) = Dodge 1 - Mobilty 1 - Power Attack 1 - Combat Expertise 2 - Combat Relfexes 3 - Improved Trip 5 - Improved Bullrush 6 - Elsuive Target 8 - Kharmic Strike 8 - Improved Combat Reflexes 11 - Leap Attack 12 - Shocktrooper 14 - Stand Still 15 - Combat Focus 17 - Rombilars Gambit 18 - Greater Combat Reflexes 20 - Combat Defense 20 - Defensive Sweep Everytime this cat is hit, he get 6 AoO, remember he has Vampyric Weapon and Psionic Lions Pounce. On a charge he can get +60 to damage. This includes all attacks that round. Ofcourse his AC drops by 21 points (-4 Kharmic, -4 Rombilars, -15 Shocktrooper), but we need people to hit him so he can hit them back. Every hit heals him aswell. So, if people hit him, he most definatly will heal the hp back by hitting them back and sucking out their life force. Its the old Masochist/King of Smack concept again, but it works.
EldonG 06-12-06, 02:23 PM	Guess its all about the feats now'a days. :D Heres an idea anyways. 1 - Flaw (Shaky) = Dodge 1 - Mobilty 1 - Power Attack 1 - Combat Expertise 2 - Combat Relfexes 3 - Improved Trip 5 - Improved Bullrush 6 - Elsuive Target 8 - Kharmic Strike 8 - Improved Combat Reflexes 11 - Leap Attack 12 - Shocktrooper 14 - Stand Still 15 - Combat Focus 17 - Rombilars Gambit 18 - Greater Combat Reflexes 20 - Combat Defense 20 - Defensive Sweep Everytime this cat is hit, he get 6 AoO, remember he has Vampyric Weapon and Psionic Lions Pounce. On a charge he can get +60 to damage. This includes all attacks that round. Ofcourse his AC drops by 21 points (-4 Kharmic, -4 Rombilars, -15 Shocktrooper), but we need people to hit him so he can hit them back. Every hit heals him aswell. So, if people hit him, he most definatly will heal the hp back by hitting them back and sucking out their life force. Its the old Masochist/King of Smack concept again, but it works. Hmmm...I dunno...dead on your first charge kinda makes it unoptimized.
LogicNinja 06-12-06, 02:25 PM	Yeah, it works, with a flaw and less stuff than the fighter would get, but where's your EWP: Spiked Chain? The fighter gets more goodies that let him control the battlefield. Of course, PsyWar6/Fighter14 is probably best.
raineym 06-12-06, 02:47 PM	OK, I took Pallin's suggestion and changed the Ability Score improvements. I also took other suggestions and made this updated progression: Level Feat (Source) Gained As ... ----- ---------------------------------------------------- -------------------- 1 Dodge (Player's Handbook) 1st-Level Character Combat Expertise (Player's Handbook) Human Bonus Feat Two-Weapon Fighting (Player's Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat Weapon Focus - Guisarme (Player's Handbook) Shaky Character Flaw 2 Combat Reflexes (Player's Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 3 Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) 3rd-Level Character 4 Short Haft (Player's Handbook II) Fighter Bonus Feat 5 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 6 Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer) 6th-Level Character Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Player's Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 7 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 8 Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 9 Power Attack (Player's Handbook) 9th-Level Character 10 Close-Quarers Combat (Complete Warrior) Fighter Bonus Feat 11 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 12 Mobility (Player's Handbook) 12th-Level Character Robilar's Gambit (Player's Handbook II) Fighter Bonus Feat 13 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 14 Improved Trip (Player's Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 15 Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook) 15th-Level Character 16 < --------- Overpowering Attack - Fighter Alternate Class Feature -------- > 17 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 18 Defensive Sweep (Player's Handbook II) 18th-Level Character Elusive Target (Player's Handbook II) Fighter Bonus Feat 19 < -------------------------------- No Feat ------------------------------- > 20 Two-Weapon Rend (Player's Handbook II) Fighter Bonus Feat
Xeraph 06-12-06, 02:54 PM	Come on guys, half of the feats in that build could be replaced, Combat Focus and Combat Defense are just topping. Also, Expansion gives me Reach. Dead on my first charge? What are you talking about Eldon? A Psychic Warrior will hit better than a Fighter anyday with his Augmented Powers. Making him a quite capable opponent by just standing around making AoO. Sure the Fighter deal double damage on his AoO, but the Psychic Warrior heals half of his damage right back! Have you even looked at the Powers they get? Im not sure you understand how much a Psychic Warrior can do on a battlefield. Maneuver in foreign planes, get DR, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, huge bonus to most scores. The list goes on and on. The Fighter gets 3 feats more. 3 feats. Think about it, is it worth it compared to the brokeness of the Psychic Warriors versality?
EldonG 06-12-06, 03:27 PM	While I admit to hyperbole, I'm leery of a drop of 21 AC. It begs for everyone...or everything in range to jump at the opportunity to wipe out the big threat, and it's quite possible to deal out far more damage than you could heal quickly. Assuming you survive, ranged attackers can still kill you pretty quickly, and reach attackers have an edge, too. 60 points for the whole round's attack just isn't that much to make up for the big AC drop, IMO, with all the battlefield controllers out there... And most of these builds are suckers for a disarm...or sunder.
Xeraph 06-12-06, 03:54 PM	That is true. Rombilars Kharmic builds can be massive glassjaws. So, get a Weapon Graft. Then you will never lose the weapon. Make it out of that wonderful material that regenerates itself, from Arms and Equipment. Psychic Warrios use Call Weaponry and GRaft Weapon Powers instead. Make sure you have an item that can generate Windwall. Be able to fly, or teleport. A human with the Dragonmark of Passage could get ahold of such a power. Later on he could even Quicken it. Boots of Flying, isn't that what they are calles? Get a pair of those! Psychic Warriors get Dimensional Slide, Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Levitate, Wall Walker and Concealing Amorpha. All Power that immulate the above more or less. Elusive Target kills charges, and other nasties with big weapons. Taking to much agro shouldn't be a problem for a tank, if it is, then the tank is not good enough. With Immovability a Psychic Warrior could get DR 15/-, manifesting it as an immediate action, to block blows for a round. Body Adjustment is 1d12 points of damage healed. And it can be augmented easily to heal you some more. Area effects? Fighter has good HP and maybe Improved Toughness. Psychic Warrior has Evade Burst. Also, Psychic Warriors can use Dorjes with Powers that apear on their list. By the way, the build look nice raineym. Elusive Target is a little to late in my oppinion. But I like what youve done with it. Happy gaming.
EldonG 06-12-06, 03:57 PM	Now you're talking. I'd never charge, taking such a big drop, without some serious defensive measures...those, after all, are the characters the bards sing about...in their lamentations. ;)
raineym 06-12-06, 04:06 PM	By the way, the build look nice raineym. Elusive Target is a little to late in my oppinion. But I like what youve done with it. Thanks. Where would you put Elusive Target, then? I can't seem to find a place to squeeze it in any sooner.
Xeraph 06-12-06, 04:12 PM	Famous last words: "Hang back and cover me, I will charge in. This guy obviously hasn't got Elusive Target." :lightbulb On the other hand: "Better to have been something for short period of you life, than to have been nothing all of it." You will get a cookie if you know what film I am reffering to. :D
Xeraph 06-12-06, 04:26 PM	Hmm, good question. You could wait with Deft Opportunist. An rearange it a bit, heres an idea: 1 - Dodge 1 - Combat Expertise 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting 1 - Weapon Focus - Guisarme 2 - Combat Reflexes 3 - Karmic Strike 4 - Short Haft 6 - Mobility 6 - Elusive Target 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 9 - Double Hit 10 - Deft Opportunist 12 - Power Attack 12 - Robilar's Gambit 14 - Close-Quarers Combat 15 - Improved Trip 18 - Stand Still 18 - Defensive Sweep 20 - Two-Weapon Rend Another idea would be another Flaw. Pathetic Charisma comes ot mind. (a Feat Rogue 2/ Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Fighter 14 has been itching in my fingers for while now.)
raineym 06-12-06, 05:00 PM	Hmm, good question. You could wait with Deft Opportunist. An rearange it a bit, heres an idea: 1 - Dodge 1 - Combat Expertise 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting 1 - Weapon Focus - Guisarme 2 - Combat Reflexes 3 - Karmic Strike 4 - Short Haft 6 - Mobility 6 - Elusive Target 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 9 - Double Hit 10 - Deft Opportunist 12 - Power Attack 12 - Robilar's Gambit 14 - Close-Quarers Combat 15 - Improved Trip 18 - Stand Still 18 - Defensive Sweep 20 - Two-Weapon Rend Another idea would be another Flaw. Pathetic Charisma comes ot mind. (a Feat Rogue 2/ Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Fighter 14 has been itching in my fingers for while now.) Thanks Xeraph, I was thinking around that level or maybe a little higher. The order of feats works better now, flavor-wise too. Can't take but one flaw (DM Rule), but I couldn't take Pathetic even if I wanted to 'cause my total Ability modifiers are too high.
obtusehobbit 06-12-06, 06:03 PM	Another suggestion Would be a one level dip into Monk of the Passive way with decisive strike. This will net you free combat expertise and Double damage to your Attack of oppurtunities, the only thing is you limit yourself to Special Monk weapons. If your DM will let you uses the Kusari -gama on page 145 of the DMG. I just built a monk/psychic warrior/fighter karmic strike build and Decisive strike is what gives me the extra edge in combat.
raineym 06-12-06, 07:17 PM	1 - Dodge 1 - Combat Expertise 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting 1 - Weapon Focus - Guisarme 2 - Combat Reflexes 3 - Karmic Strike 4 - Short Haft 6 - Mobility 6 - Elusive Target 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 9 - Double Hit 10 - Deft Opportunist 12 - Power Attack 12 - Robilar's Gambit 14 - Close-Quarers Combat 15 - Improved Trip 18 - Stand Still 18 - Defensive Sweep 20 - Two-Weapon Rend Forgot about Hold the Line in this build. Where would that go? What would it replace? How would you reorder the feats? I think I would remove Power Attack and put Hold the Line there.
LogicNinja 06-12-06, 07:24 PM	What's so great about Hold the Line? You can already use tripping or Stand Still to stop chargers.
raineym 06-12-06, 07:26 PM	Duh! :rolleyes: Overlooked that when reviewing. Thanks again everybody.
Xeraph 06-12-06, 07:40 PM	I have been looking at this trick where you attack with your armor spikes as an ofhand weapon. Im not sure if its even legal. Anyways, lets say it is. Whats stopping you from swapping Weapon Focus with Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Spiked Chain] and get a weapon that works both as reach and against adjecent opponents. This way you can ditch Short Haft and make room for Hold The Line. I don't think Hold The Line is overly important. So if I where you, I would kick some of the better feat down a notch. Improved Trip and Deft Opportunist comes to mind.
raineym 06-12-06, 08:56 PM	I have been looking at this trick where you attack with your armor spikes as an ofhand weapon. Im not sure if its even legal. From the SRD: Armor Spikes You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right. Nowhere in any FAQ, errata, or rules does it state that using a two-handed weapon prevents this attack.
Elderich 06-12-06, 10:49 PM	get a weapon that works both as reach and against adjecent opponents. This way you can ditch Short Haft and make room for Hold The Line.I am not a big fighter builder, but how about the Kusari-gama DMGp~140?. Light double weapon. Weild two of them. Each will do B/P. Might try a "Bracers of chains." Just like Bracers of archery, but for chains. Save a EWP feat.
raineym 06-12-06, 11:26 PM	I am not a big fighter builder, but how about the Kusari-gama DMGp~140?. Light double weapon. Weild two of them. Each will do B/P. The Kusari-gama is an exotic weapon.
Xeraph 06-13-06, 05:02 AM	Nowhere in any FAQ, errata, or rules does it state that using a two-handed weapon prevents this attack. Ive read that aswell. But if you are using you off-hand, aswell as your main hand, to wield a Spiked Chain. Hasn't the off-hand already used up its attacks for the round? Well, anyway, the Spiked Chain is superior to the Guisarm. You save a feat, and thats whats important. Kusari-Gama by the way is a light weapon, you can therefore not Power Attack with it, and you suffer great penalties on trip attacks. Also, it is not a double weapon if you look closely in DMG. It is a double weapon in Oriental Adventures though.
Lellindil 06-13-06, 07:02 AM	Everytime this cat is hit, he get 6 AoO how does this work exactly? I was under the impression that each action can only provoke 1 attack of opportunity. Am I missing something?
raineym 06-13-06, 07:20 AM	Well, anyway, the Spiked Chain is superior to the Guisarm. You save a feat, and thats whats important. I would be trading Weapon Focus (Guisarme) and Short Haft with Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain) and Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) because a feat down the line requires Weapon Focus. I see your point though. I looked a little closer and decided to switch. More advantageous. Kusari-Gama by the way is a light weapon, you can therefore not Power Attack with it, and you suffer great penalties on trip attacks. Also, it is not a double weapon if you look closely in DMG. It is a double weapon in Oriental Adventures though. That's why I didn't even consider it.
Xeraph 06-13-06, 08:40 AM	how does this work exactly? I was under the impression that each action can only provoke 1 attack of opportunity. Am I missing something? Combat Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes and Greater Combat Reflexes gives you 3 attacks per AoO. So, combined with Rombilars Gambit and Kharmic Strike we get 6 AoO everytime someone hits us. Add in Counter Attack and we have another attack untop. And we have one normal attack aswell. I would be trading Weapon Focus (Guisarme) and Short Haft with Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain) and Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) because a feat down the line requires Weapon Focus. I see your point though. I looked a little closer and decided to switch. More advantageous. Hmm, hadn't noticed you needed Weapon Focus. Well, with the Spiked Chain you get +2 to Disarm aswell.
EldonG 06-13-06, 08:48 AM	From the SRD: Nowhere in any FAQ, errata, or rules does it state that using a two-handed weapon prevents this attack. Boy, do I hate that interpretation. I only have 2 hands...and both of them are being used. I'm not a monk...monks can specifically attack with any body part...this specifically states that you can't do it wielding an off-hand weapon...so where's that third hand? Mine are taken.
EldonG 06-13-06, 08:51 AM	Incidentally, if you're building an AoO character...there is almost no better feat than Deft Opportunist, at low levels. +4 to hit? Let me at it! I'd do almost anything to squeeze it in asap after Combat Reflexes.
raineym 06-13-06, 09:20 AM	Boy, do I hate that interpretation. I only have 2 hands...and both of them are being used. I'm not a monk...monks can specifically attack with any body part...this specifically states that you can't do it wielding an off-hand weapon...so where's that third hand? Mine are taken. That's why I changed it. Even though it doesn't specifically state it, I go by a "real-world" interpretation. Incidentally, if you're building an AoO character...there is almost no better feat than Deft Opportunist, at low levels. +4 to hit? Let me at it! I'd do almost anything to squeeze it in asap after Combat Reflexes. Way ahead of you, there. Here's the new progression: Level Feat ----- ------------------------------------------- 1 Dodge Combat Expertise Two-Weapon Fighting Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain (Shaky Flaw) 2 Weapon Focus - Spiked Chain 3 Karmic Strike 4 Combat Reflexes 5 6 Deft Opportunist Mobility 7 8 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 9 Elusive Target 10 Double Hit 11 12 Power Attack Robilar's Gambit 13 14 Close-Quarters Fighting 15 Improved Trip 16 <! Alternate Fighter Ability From PHB II !> 17 18 Stand Still Defensive Sweep 19 20 Two-Weapon Rend Xeraph - I don't see 6 AoO's either. Explain it or point me to a post that does. Also, where can I find the Greater Combat Reflexes feat, I can't find it anywhere. Improved Combat Reflexes [Epic] Prerequisites: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes. Benefit: There is no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in one round. (you still can’t make more than one attack of opportunity for a given opportunity.) Making an Attack of Opportunity An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. If 6 AoO's is true, then this character's build just changed dramatically.
dagger 06-13-06, 09:26 AM	I don't think he is referring to the Epic feat, he is referring to feats from a Dragon (or Dungeon) mag......
EldonG 06-13-06, 09:36 AM	Not bad. :) Back when I built mine, with no flaws, as a human, with an assumed 16 Str, he actually managed a +8 to hit with AoOs...at first level. Wielding a spiked chain. Too much fun. At 2nd level, when masterwork is the norm, +11 can be achieved, easily. By the way...a spiked chain isn't a double weapon unless you take Exotic Weapon Master...you're using that other chain, from OA, right?
Xeraph 06-13-06, 09:46 AM	Ayy matey. Its the one's from Dragon Magazine. They can also be found on www.crystalkeep.com, but since you wasn't allowed those sources I didnt think it would be impoartant. Anyways, they allow you to make the following attacks per AoO: +Bab/ -5/ -10 (Combat Reflexes/Imp Combat Reflexes/Grt Combat Reflexes) So, with Rombilars Kharmic Counter Attack setup it would look like this(note Counter Attack is not an AoO): +Bab/+Bab/+Bab/-5/-5/-10/-10 (Counter Attack/ Kharmic Strike/ Rombilars Gambit/ Imp Combat Reflexes/ Imp Combat Reflexes/ Grt Combat Reflexes/ Grt Combat Reflexes) Do ye understand mateys arh?
raineym 06-13-06, 10:01 AM	Found them ... Dragon #340. Dead God! :eek: I'm so changing this build.
EldonG 06-13-06, 10:22 AM	Found them ... Dragon #340. Dead God! :eek: I'm so changing this build. Dead God?
Xeraph 06-13-06, 10:23 AM	:D
raineym 06-13-06, 11:43 AM	Dead God! :eek: I'm so changing this build. Slip of the 'Ye Olde Obese Metacarpus Appendage! I'm so changing this build. How about this: Level Feat (Source) Gained As ... ----- ---------------------------------------------------- -------------------- 1 Dodge (PHB) 1st-Level Character Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer) Human Bonus Feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat Combat Reflexes (PHB) Shaky Character Flaw 2 Combat Expertise (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 3 Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior) 3rd-Level Character 4 Mobility (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 5 6 Improved Combat Reflexes (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) 6th-Level Character Opportunistic Tactician (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) Fighter Bonus Feat 7 8 Stand Still (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Fighter Bonus Feat 9 Elusive Target (Complete Warrior) 9th-Level Character 10 Exploit Adjustment (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) Fighter Bonus Feat 11 12 < -------- Counterattack Attack - Fighter Alternate Class Feature -------- > Robilar's Gambit (PHB II) 12th-Level Character 13 14 Close-Quarters Fighting (Complete Warrior) Fighter Bonus Feat 15 Greater Combat Reflexes (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) 15th-Level Character 16 < --------- Overpowering Attack - Fighter Alternate Class Feature -------- > 17 18 Defensive Sweep (PHB II) 18th-Level Character Improved Trip (PHB) Fighter Bonus Feat 19 20 Backstab (Dragon #340, pg. 86-87) Fighter Bonus Feat BTW, he actually said official v3.5 content that's not setting-specific (except Eberron), and Dragon Magazine is considered official v3.5 content. Besides, I've let him use content from Dragon in my games before, so...
EldonG 06-13-06, 05:05 PM	I love Counterattack except in combo with Overpowering attack...they both take a full round action and can't be combined. Now, if, at 16th, you can take Overpowering attack, and retrain for another feat...cool. :) Maybe even your improved trip. It would be nice to have that in earlier.
Xeraph 06-13-06, 05:10 PM	:eek: Are yo absolutly sure about this? If thats true, then the Fighter just went from cool to suckass again. Ye, take Overpowering Attack over Counterattack!
raineym 06-13-06, 05:20 PM	OK, let me get this staight: Drop Counterattack from Level 12? Move Improved Trip to Level 12 and take another feat at 18?, or Take another feat at Level 12? Also, he allows each player to make a sort of "Wish List" for the character of magical items we want. This is what I thought of: [ANY BONUS] Spiked Chain of Collision, Impact, and Sweeping Cloak of Displacement, Major Manual of Quickness of Action (+3 or higher, preferably +5)
Lellindil 06-13-06, 06:28 PM	where is counter attack found? i dont have my phb2 w/ me, is it one of the things a fighter can use a feat to replace? or a feat i just havent seen. also do rhombilars and karmic stack for the purposes of 1 attack that hits? isnt that person making an attack (and it happening to hit) only 1 action so that cant provoke multiple attacks of opportunity?
raineym 06-13-06, 07:07 PM	where is counter attack found? i dont have my phb2 w/ me, is it one of the things a fighter can use a feat to replace? or a feat i just havent seen. PHB2 page 45. Takes the place of 12th-level bonus feat.
Xeraph 06-13-06, 07:17 PM	also do rhombilars and karmic stack for the purposes of 1 attack that hits? isnt that person making an attack (and it happening to hit) only 1 action so that cant provoke multiple attacks of opportunity?Two different triggers, two different AoOs. Remember, they both count towards your total count per day. Also raineym, Sweeping is great! Wrathful Healing is something to wish for aswell! Especially for a AoO expert! Can't remember wheres its found though. Always forgets.
raineym 06-13-06, 07:20 PM	Xeraph - What you meant by this... Are yo absolutly sure about this? If thats true, then the Fighter just went from cool to suckass again. Ye, take Overpowering Attack over Counterattack!
Xeraph 06-13-06, 07:42 PM	... was, that with 2 nice abilties you could be a very cool defensive Fighter from level 12 and up. Hell you could even get some nice needed AC at level 6. But now you can only do this at level 16, a level before mages get 9th level spells. ... why not be a Psychic Warrior then right? They kick ass from 1st to 20th level. Hmm, I guess that is what Retraining is for, now that I think about it. Take Counterattack at level 12, and at level 16 you switch it out with something else and pick up Overpowering Attack. That might actually do the trick.
Elderich 06-13-06, 09:06 PM	The Kusari-gama is an exotic weapon.That is why i suggested...Might try a "Bracers of chains." Just like Bracers of archery, but for chains. Save a EWP feat.
raineym 06-14-06, 10:13 AM	Might try a "Bracers of chains." Just like Bracers of archery, but for chains. Save a EWP feat. I wanted to use the weapon from 1st-level. I would have had to have waited until I could either afford to pay someone to make them for me or find them.
obtusehobbit 06-14-06, 10:22 AM	You are already using EWP for Spiked Chain why not switch it for Kusari-gama the only diffrence is the kusari-gama is a light one handed reach weapon that does 1d6, other than that they get the some bonuses to trip, disarm, ect.
Xeraph 06-14-06, 12:48 PM	Then why switch? The build doesnt have room for TWF. And the Power Attack option is really good at most levels.
EldonG 06-14-06, 01:11 PM	Just curious, have you looked at mine at all? I can give you a link, if you like. Admittedly, he changed a bit from first posting, and if you use retraining, I would use the heck out of it... Edit: the link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638676
raineym 06-16-06, 09:57 AM	I have updated the AoO/Karmic Striker to what I think will be the final build on the first post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9372310). It does utilize Retraining from PHB2, so let me know if it don't look right.
Xeraph 06-16-06, 10:11 AM	I have thought of something, being able to attack everything that provokes AoOs is great and all. But what about spellacsters, casting defensively? As earlier, the feats are packed very tight. So room for Blind-fight - Mage Slayer is a little hard to get a hold of. To bad. I like the new build, I just don't understand why youve taken Improved Toughness. I de take Deft Opportunist instead. With the Fierce enhancement to you weapon, you could wreak some seriuos havoc. I think its from Arms and Equipment. Its great when fighting opponents that attack many times, but deal poor damage. Also, if confronted with an enemy that hits you no matter what, might aswell pull you AC to the buttom and deal more damage. Besides, you have Elusive Target, so opponents with Power Attack can't abuse you low AC to much.
Leugren 06-16-06, 11:06 AM	From the SRD: Quote: Armor Spikes You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right. Nowhere in any FAQ, errata, or rules does it state that using a two-handed weapon prevents this attack. The D&D 3.5 FAQ actually explicitly states that you can make an off-hand attack with your armor spikes even when you are wielding a two-handed weapon: If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.
Xeraph 06-16-06, 11:12 AM	Interesting. Very interesting. Can you post the reference page or link?
raineym 06-16-06, 11:27 AM	I have thought of something, being able to attack everything that provokes AoOs is great and all. But what about spellacsters, casting defensively? As earlier, the feats are packed very tight. So room for Blind-fight - Mage Slayer is a little hard to get a hold of. To bad. I like the new build, I just don't understand why youve taken Improved Toughness. I de take Deft Opportunist instead. I do have Deft Opportunist, at 1st level. Mage Slayer, hmmm. Overlooked that. Goodbye Opportunistic Tactician. With the Fierce enhancement to you weapon, you could wreak some seriuos havoc. I think its from Arms and Equipment. Its great when fighting opponents that attack many times, but deal poor damage. Also, if confronted with an enemy that hits you no matter what, might aswell pull you AC to the buttom and deal more damage. Besides, you have Elusive Target, so opponents with Power Attack can't abuse you low AC to much. Way ahead of you - Updated Wish List: [ANY BONUS] Spiked Chain of Collision, Impact, Sweeping, Fierce, and/or Wrathful Healing Cloak of Displacement, Major Ring of Force Shield Manual of Quickness of Action (+3 or higher) Starmantle Cloak (Source: Book of Exalted Deeds) Retributive Amulet (Source: Book of Exlated Deeds)
scarymike 06-16-06, 11:33 AM	Way ahead of you - Updated Wish List: [ANY BONUS] Spiked Chain of Collision, Impact, Sweeping, Fierce, and/or Wrathful Healing Cloak of Displacement, Major Ring of Force Shield Manual of Quickness of Action (+3 or higher) Starmantle Cloak (Source: Book of Exalted Deeds) Retributive Amulet (Source: Book of Exlated Deeds) Can you post sources of the spike chain add ons? I know sweeping is from magic of faerun, but what of the others? Thanks, -Mike
Leugren 06-16-06, 11:35 AM	Interesting. Very interesting. Can you post the reference page or link? Sure. Here you go: v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv05242006.zip) See the last question on page #27.
raineym 06-16-06, 11:58 AM	Can you post sources of the spike chain add ons? I know sweeping is from magic of faerun, but what of the others? Thanks, -Mike Collision (Expanded Psionics Handbook): +5 damage Impact (Magic of Faerun): Doubles threat range of bludgeoning weapon Sweeping (Magic of Faerun): +4 to Str when tripping Fierce (Arms & Equipment Guide): Transfer Dex bonus to damage; reduce AC by same amount Wrathful Healing (Enemies and Allies): Heal half of all damage dealt per hit
LogicNinja 06-16-06, 12:25 PM	Of those, don't really count on the last two, since they're horrifically overpowered and most sane DMs disallow'em.
raineym 06-16-06, 12:45 PM	I know. It is a Wish List after all.
Xeraph 06-16-06, 01:27 PM	Oh what I wouldn't give for a DM who took Wish Lists. If only one of those came true, you would be settled for sure!
raineym 06-16-06, 02:28 PM	Oh what I wouldn't give for a DM who took Wish Lists. If only one of those came true, you would be settled for sure! This DM, as well as I, try to at least give them one item off of the list. That is, of course, it will not unbalance the game. Also, take a look at the build again. I want to fit Mage Slayer in, but I have too many feats around 6th-12th levels that can't be taken as Fighter bonus feats. And since Mage Slayer is one of those, I can't seem to fit it in. If I can't fit it in, oh well. That will be my Achilles' Heel. I can beat the hell out of anybody else, I just can't beat the hell out of a caster casting defensively, that's all.
pyro_cat 06-16-06, 02:36 PM	If you took another flaw, couldn't you squeeze Mage Slayer in there somewhere? There are plenty of flaws that won't detriment your character in the slightest.
raineym 06-16-06, 02:45 PM	If you took another flaw, couldn't you squeeze Mage Slayer in there somewhere? There are plenty of flaws that won't detriment your character in the slightest. I was actually trying to avoid using any flaws, but I had to use one, and am reluctant to take another.
Xeraph 06-16-06, 02:48 PM	O can't seem to find room, but remember, uyou can always ready an attack action to beat the hell out of casters IF they cast a spell. This works even if they cast defensively. This tactic should be sufficient to keep them in awe if you ever get that close.
Bob Loblaw 06-23-06, 07:39 PM	Just so you know, you can take another flaw every 5 levels (assuming the DM allows it of course). Flaws: A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it (for examples of times when doing this might be appropriate, see Character Traits). Traits: If the game master allows it, players may add traits to their characters after 1st level. The game master might allow a player to assign a trait to her character after she has roleplayed the character in a manner consistent with the trait in question, or after a traumatic or life changing experience (after dying, a character might develop the Cautious trait or the Aggressive trait). If the game master includes this option, a character should gain a new trait no more frequently than once every five levels. I would also try to add in Agile Riposte, Canny Opportunist (Dragon 340), Expert Tactician (PHBII), Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness, you will need Aberration Blood but you'll gain 5 more feet of reach), Mercurial Strike (Dragon 310, but you will need Quickdraw), Retribution (Dragon 326), Sidestep (Mini), Skewer Foe (Champions of Ruin), and/or Unbalancing Blow (Dragon 295). They should be able to improve your opportunities for more attacks, improve your reach, improve your mobility on the field, or improve your damage. Just some thoughts.
raineym 06-23-06, 10:27 PM	I updated the build to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9372310&postcount=1). Also, I have a question concerning Double Hit and Imp. Combat Reflexes/Greater Combat Reflexes. If I read the wording of Double Hit correctly, I can attack with my off hand during the same AoO, so does that mean the extra attacks granted to me by Imp. Combat Reflexes/Greater Combat Reflexes allow me to get three attacks using both weapons, effectively making it +BAB/+BAB/+BAB-5/+BAB-5/+BAB-10/+BAB-10 during every AoO I get?
Bob Loblaw 06-24-06, 11:09 AM	I would say no. It says one attack with your off-hand. The other feats say one additional attack. I guess you could use the additional attack with your off-hand, but then you wouldn't get to use it with your primary hand.
jpowers22 06-24-06, 01:07 PM	If you are using dragon variants then you should use the Fighter Variant from Dragon, Kensai(not the prestige class). You lose your free fighter feat at first level, but gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency(so its a wash), but also gain +1 to hit, and +1 to damage at 1st level with your selected weapon and every 5 levels afterwords. Kensai also has a better skill set than base class fighter. Infact if you are planning on focusing on 1 weapon, then there is no reason to ever be anything besides a Kensai IMO.
raineym 06-24-06, 03:29 PM	If you are using dragon variants then you should use the Fighter Variant from Dragon, Kensai(not the prestige class). Hadn't even thought about it. The only problem I see is that three of the feats I'm using (Double Hit, Opportunistic Tactician, and Knock-Down) aren't on the list. I've already gotten the DM to approve the use of Dragon Magazine material for the feats and the FR-specific Jotunbrud in an Eberron campaign, but getting him to allow me to use the Kensai and then add those feats above to the allowed list may be asking too much for one character.