Apostle of Peace Optimization Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

Apostle of Peace Optimization Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warlord Griffin
04-13-05, 02:27 AM I look at this prestige class and I say to myself, WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE. By the end of ANY build with this prestige class, you can wear defensive magic items and have vow of poverty in tact along with sainthood and a decent melee build slapped on, for the love of all things holy people. Why has no one tried to truely do something with this class yet. Good armor bonuses, sanctified spells, weapons breaking on you, and turning villians to your cause on a regular basis. But I digress I am trying to do is to optimize an apostle of peace build. In any event on to the evilness...I mean goodness of the build.

Lawful Good: Human: Venerable: Exalted: Monk 4/ Cleric 3/ Apostle of Peace 10/ Contemplative 1/ Saint 2

Monk 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss*, Stunning Fist**
Monk 2: Vow of Nonviolence, Combat Reflexes**
Monk 3: Vow of Peace
Monk 4: Gift of Discernment*
Cleric 1: (Luck and Time Domains)
Cleric 2: Improved Counterspell, Intuitive Attack*
Cleric 3:
Apostle 1: Exalted Turning*
Apostle 2: Reactive Counterspell
Apostle 3: Nimbus of Light*
Apostle 4:
Apostle 5: Heighten Spell, Holy Radiance*
Apostle 6:
Apostle 7: Servant of the Heavens*
Apostle 8: Spell Penetration
Apostle 9: Words of Creation*
Apostle 10:
Contemplative 1: (Mysticism Domain) Dragon Cohort (Young Gold Dragon), Gift of Faith*
Saint 1:
Saint 2: Vow of Abstinence*

Vow of Poverty Feats*
Monk Feats **

Rational:
Venerable: Yes the -6 to all physical stats stinks, and yet it does not matter, your attack comes from wisdom due to Intuitive Attack and your AC is sky high because of everything else, since after gaining the saint hood template you can, quite litterally thanks to the rules use a liberal smattering of miracles (if you are not going epic (check BoED if you want specifics)) after gaining the template at level 19 without any damage to your progression.
Gift of Discernment: A quick way to insure that no matter what, even if you do something wrong unknowningly, you can justify it to yourself and your divine patrons by consorting this feat even if you cannot purchase a phalerancy of faithfulness.
Monk Levels: Monks can deal non-lethal damage with their fists, and has stunning fist, so touch spells are easier to deliver and evasion and still mind along with limited slow fall are all nice bonuses, also, saint's armor bonus from wisdom and monk's armor bonus from wisdom stack along with that granted by vow of poverty, oh goody, goody.
Domain Choices: cannot cast many cleric spells, so what domains do for you is better option hence luck for the roll, time for improved iniative, and mysticism for well, look at the saves. You can also switch out luck for either joy or herald if you want to be more diplomatic or if no one in your party is a wizard or sorcerer for the trickery domain (polymorph any object, do not leave home without it).
Saint: yes we loose caster levels, but because this is an AoP build it would only rise up one caster level for two levels of any spellcasting class, so it would not be worth it, besides IT IS SAINTHOOD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD and if an Apostle of Peace does not qualify for it, have your DM's head examined by the nearest mindflayer. Also, because it changes your type to outsider, well polymorph any object to permanently change you into one of the myriad of outsider types like oh lets say, ANGELS.
Counterspell Tree: Your character cannot cast many finishing spells (except sanctify the wicked), and cannot do permanent damage, EVER, so with cleric spells and apostle of peace spells you can save your allies from those Big Bad Evil Guy slinging fireballs at your party while safe behind your own high AC, evasion, and utility spells.
Exalted Turning, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance: Clerics deal with undead, that is how they work, it is one of their main functions, I know their are builds out their with clerics who do not bother with this but this guy has enough free feats from Vow of Poverty that you just feel the need to flesh him out as much as possible. Also, for diplomacy purposes, barging into the kings court, bathed in holy light does have quite an effect. :D
Dragon Cohort: Good healer/diplomat + Gold Dragon cohort serving as willing part time mount and ally= :plotting: well you figure it out (also sanctified pyroclastic dragons work too) :rofl:

Final Ability Scores 25 point build: (without miracles or "borrowed" tomes)

Str 8 (Venerable -6) =2
Dex 12 (Venerable -6) (VoP +2) =8
Con 14 (Venerable -6) (VoP +4)(Saint +2) =14
Int 9 (Venerable +3) =12
Wis 18 (Venerable +3) (VoP +8) (Lvl +5) (Saint +2) =36
Cha 11 (Venerable +3) (VoP +6) (Saint +4) =22

Final Saves:
Fort: 14 (ability +2) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 25
Ref: 12 (ability -1) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 21
Will: 16 (ability +13) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 38

Final Armor Class: 10+(dex bonus -1)+(vow of poverty and peace bonuses +27)+(monk wisdom armor bonus +13)+(saint wisdom armor bonus +13)=62 Note this is without polymorphing yourself in a fun outsider, in which case your armor class should end up in the 80's.
Along with three domains, 9th level spells, and various apostle of peace goodies including the ability to calm down any foe without them able to make a save just get them to stop and well, talk.

So how would you kill this guy?
:mad: direct high damage :P high AC, calming aura, calming touch and high diplomacy, young gold dragon bodygua...I mean cohort
:mad: save or die spells :P high saves, evasion, still mind, resistances, immunities, counterspell tree
:mad: area effect spells :P evasion again, counterspell tree, one shot of the aspect of the deity spells an he is flying, literally
:mad: poisons or other subterfuge :P He does not eat, drink, or breathe, only sleep, and then only with a Gold dragon nearby, nobody is lying to him either with his high diplomacy and sense motive.

In any event, appraise, nit pick, and otherwise tear it apart folks if you think I am interpreting what a min/max apostle of peace should be speak up, Thanks.

(One problem with this build, people are still debating about how the fact that it explicitly says an Apostle of Peace can use defensive magic items, yet the vow of poverty feat, a prerequisite for the class cannot allow you to use said items.) :confused:

Edit: You are right, I made a mistake, cannot take it until later after 7th level. Build Fixed.
Edit: Corrected Venerable stats
Talen Lee
04-13-05, 03:04 AM Two things leap to mind.

First, the notion of combining Apostle of Peace with Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant, and using Precocious Apprentice.

Second, the use of the Paragon Human (if human, f'rex) in this build. Take the 1st level at 1st level, gain a nice meaty lump of skills in your choice of class, and take 2nd and 3rd levels of it once you attain a spellcaster (such as Wizard or cleric).

The Apostle looks utterly nucking futs for abilities, though; the spellcasting is just ridiculously good, and can be bolted on to an appropriately built level 10 melee build. Oh, boo-hoo, you have to deal nonlethal damage. The only times that matters - up against creatures who are immune to it - you don't have to worry about it.
Ashlan
04-13-05, 03:24 AM You can't become an Apostle of Peace at 6th level. They require Concentration - 10 Ranks, can you can not get this before 7th level, hence the earliest you can become an Apostle of Peace is 8th level.

Ash
gabrion
04-13-05, 04:21 AM Just one idea.

I'm not sure which of the Exalted Feats you really like or need in this build, but if you don't really need all of them, it can be worthwhile to hold of on VoP until late in the build. If you do this, you don't have to worry about "borrowing" books, since you could buy and read them before you get the feat. You still get the other goodies from VoP, plus you can bump up your abilities a bit.

Obviously this only works if you really don't need or particularly want the Exalted Feats, but I just thought I would throw the idea out there.
Malfean
04-13-05, 05:25 PM Since using armor is out of the question i suggest the variant from Arcana unearthed of the cleric who cannot wear armor but has 6+Int skills per level and the bardic lore ability.
Warlord Griffin
04-13-05, 07:36 PM First, Vow of Poverty at first level is key to getting this build to be good, (Nymph's Kiss).

Second, I have never read Arcana Unearthed so I will have to take your word on how good that brand of cleric is. Sounds good though, I will have to pick up the book.

Third, Human Paragon and Mystic Thurge cannot be fit easily into this build if I want the ability to deliver calming touch to my foes.

Scenario example, lich who hates me casts spell, I reactive counterspell it, if that fails evasion save for half damage. I get in close, use intuitive attack to allow me to get past any armor class he has, calming touch coupled with fury of blows and my aura generated by vow of peace and vow of nonviolence, now he no longer hates me or at least will listen to me. I role diplomacy, he either goes away or joins me in my righteous cause. If that does not work, he is calm enough and I am close enough for a headlock easy :D . After which, I will talk his ear off for about four hours about the benefits of being good, rightousness, and justice and honesty, basicaly the same lecture Bush needs, who says the good guys cannot torture people. :evillaugh
Gothic Rose
04-14-05, 02:03 AM I believe you could just destroy the Lich instead, since it's undead and all.
deduke
04-14-05, 04:34 AM on the venerable part, from the SRD:

With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way

i did the bolt thing. so yes its -6 to physical stats for +3 to mental stats.
If this was not the case becoming older was really unbalanced game wise, all casters wanting to be venerable for insane dc's.

regards deDuke
Warlord Griffin
04-14-05, 03:22 PM To deduke, thanks for the clarification and to Gothic Rose, yes I could destroy the lich but it would just reform later in a bad mood somewhere else, if he is any kind of lich with any sense at all he would have buried his phalerancy as far away from anyone as possible. My character still needs to sleep, and still can be killed by poison. Besides, a rule any adventurer knows is don't kill a potential ally, and with enough diplomacy ANYONE can become a potential ally, or at least back out of your way.
Warlord Griffin
04-22-05, 05:01 PM Quick idea I wanted to tack on:
In order to be good with the Vow of Poverty Feat you must give away, and I am quoting here "most" of your gold, now that does not mean all of, just probably 75% or more of your treasure, the rest you can rationalize giving to the party. How you rationalize it is this, "My character has vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, and vow of peace. These fools cannot compare to my saint like status, but they try and they, despite their only semi-devote ways put up with me being a demandingly devoute individual, so I will give them some of my gold, (the 25% not required to be given away) as compensation for my inconvience on them, at least until I can get them to understand the value of goodness and have them donate it to charity." Obviously you will, NEVER convince them enough. :bounce: :OMG!
rilem
04-22-05, 05:20 PM Quick idea I wanted to tack on:
.... Obviously you will, NEVER convince them enough....OMG!

You've got about three violations of various alignment/vow requirements here, and most DMs you try this with will smack you silly. Exalted beings don't play weasel-word games, they don't call their friends "fools" and they don't give money to rich people when poor people are suffering.

Also, your argument with the lich could take a while longer than you think. The calming aura you generate is mind-affecting, which the lich is immune to. And Diplomacy doesn't work on everything — read the various Diplomacy builds on the boards here for a discussion of their limitations. You'd be much better off just using Discern Location (via miracle), then putting the lich out of his misery.
foxylady
04-23-05, 01:49 AM Mysticism domain, as reprinted in Complete Divine, no longer gives a permanent bonus to saving throws.
Warlord Griffin
04-24-05, 02:02 PM to rilem alright, alright, it does not work exactly as I have written it, but you get the idea right, I am merely saying that the text says you have to give away MOST of your gold, not all of it. Yes most of it will be going to the orphans and the like, but I give the old party of ours a little gold as a type of appology should my character's naturally good nature ever come back to bite us in the haversack as it so often can. Also, a lich can hide their phalerancy even from discern location, and yes I did goof on the mind effecting properties not effecting undead, so yes I would need to turn him and hit him with all my exalted goodness. Finally, yes he is not the end all beat all for diplomatic situations, he is just good for them, very, very good.

to foxylady, yes it is for only three rounds a day, but I would like to note, how long does the typical combat last if your party has any kind of cohesive working order, answer, one to six rounds so for half the combat my saves are that good. However if you think it is that bad for the build, slip in fate domain instead, free uncanny dodge along with evasion always is good

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warlord Griffin 04-13-05, 02:27 AM	I look at this prestige class and I say to myself, WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE. By the end of ANY build with this prestige class, you can wear defensive magic items and have vow of poverty in tact along with sainthood and a decent melee build slapped on, for the love of all things holy people. Why has no one tried to truely do something with this class yet. Good armor bonuses, sanctified spells, weapons breaking on you, and turning villians to your cause on a regular basis. But I digress I am trying to do is to optimize an apostle of peace build. In any event on to the evilness...I mean goodness of the build. Lawful Good: Human: Venerable: Exalted: Monk 4/ Cleric 3/ Apostle of Peace 10/ Contemplative 1/ Saint 2 Monk 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss, Stunning Fist* Monk 2: Vow of Nonviolence, Combat Reflexes** Monk 3: Vow of Peace Monk 4: Gift of Discernment* Cleric 1: (Luck and Time Domains) Cleric 2: Improved Counterspell, Intuitive Attack* Cleric 3: Apostle 1: Exalted Turning* Apostle 2: Reactive Counterspell Apostle 3: Nimbus of Light* Apostle 4: Apostle 5: Heighten Spell, Holy Radiance* Apostle 6: Apostle 7: Servant of the Heavens* Apostle 8: Spell Penetration Apostle 9: Words of Creation* Apostle 10: Contemplative 1: (Mysticism Domain) Dragon Cohort (Young Gold Dragon), Gift of Faith* Saint 1: Saint 2: Vow of Abstinence* Vow of Poverty Feats* Monk Feats ** Rational: Venerable: Yes the -6 to all physical stats stinks, and yet it does not matter, your attack comes from wisdom due to Intuitive Attack and your AC is sky high because of everything else, since after gaining the saint hood template you can, quite litterally thanks to the rules use a liberal smattering of miracles (if you are not going epic (check BoED if you want specifics)) after gaining the template at level 19 without any damage to your progression. Gift of Discernment: A quick way to insure that no matter what, even if you do something wrong unknowningly, you can justify it to yourself and your divine patrons by consorting this feat even if you cannot purchase a phalerancy of faithfulness. Monk Levels: Monks can deal non-lethal damage with their fists, and has stunning fist, so touch spells are easier to deliver and evasion and still mind along with limited slow fall are all nice bonuses, also, saint's armor bonus from wisdom and monk's armor bonus from wisdom stack along with that granted by vow of poverty, oh goody, goody. Domain Choices: cannot cast many cleric spells, so what domains do for you is better option hence luck for the roll, time for improved iniative, and mysticism for well, look at the saves. You can also switch out luck for either joy or herald if you want to be more diplomatic or if no one in your party is a wizard or sorcerer for the trickery domain (polymorph any object, do not leave home without it). Saint: yes we loose caster levels, but because this is an AoP build it would only rise up one caster level for two levels of any spellcasting class, so it would not be worth it, besides IT IS SAINTHOOD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD and if an Apostle of Peace does not qualify for it, have your DM's head examined by the nearest mindflayer. Also, because it changes your type to outsider, well polymorph any object to permanently change you into one of the myriad of outsider types like oh lets say, ANGELS. Counterspell Tree: Your character cannot cast many finishing spells (except sanctify the wicked), and cannot do permanent damage, EVER, so with cleric spells and apostle of peace spells you can save your allies from those Big Bad Evil Guy slinging fireballs at your party while safe behind your own high AC, evasion, and utility spells. Exalted Turning, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance: Clerics deal with undead, that is how they work, it is one of their main functions, I know their are builds out their with clerics who do not bother with this but this guy has enough free feats from Vow of Poverty that you just feel the need to flesh him out as much as possible. Also, for diplomacy purposes, barging into the kings court, bathed in holy light does have quite an effect. :D Dragon Cohort: Good healer/diplomat + Gold Dragon cohort serving as willing part time mount and ally= :plotting: well you figure it out (also sanctified pyroclastic dragons work too) :rofl: Final Ability Scores 25 point build: (without miracles or "borrowed" tomes) Str 8 (Venerable -6) =2 Dex 12 (Venerable -6) (VoP +2) =8 Con 14 (Venerable -6) (VoP +4)(Saint +2) =14 Int 9 (Venerable +3) =12 Wis 18 (Venerable +3) (VoP +8) (Lvl +5) (Saint +2) =36 Cha 11 (Venerable +3) (VoP +6) (Saint +4) =22 Final Saves: Fort: 14 (ability +2) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 25 Ref: 12 (ability -1) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 21 Will: 16 (ability +13) (VoP +3) (Mysticism Domain +6)= 38 Final Armor Class: 10+(dex bonus -1)+(vow of poverty and peace bonuses +27)+(monk wisdom armor bonus +13)+(saint wisdom armor bonus +13)=62 Note this is without polymorphing yourself in a fun outsider, in which case your armor class should end up in the 80's. Along with three domains, 9th level spells, and various apostle of peace goodies including the ability to calm down any foe without them able to make a save just get them to stop and well, talk. So how would you kill this guy? :mad: direct high damage :P high AC, calming aura, calming touch and high diplomacy, young gold dragon bodygua...I mean cohort :mad: save or die spells :P high saves, evasion, still mind, resistances, immunities, counterspell tree :mad: area effect spells :P evasion again, counterspell tree, one shot of the aspect of the deity spells an he is flying, literally :mad: poisons or other subterfuge :P He does not eat, drink, or breathe, only sleep, and then only with a Gold dragon nearby, nobody is lying to him either with his high diplomacy and sense motive. In any event, appraise, nit pick, and otherwise tear it apart folks if you think I am interpreting what a min/max apostle of peace should be speak up, Thanks. (One problem with this build, people are still debating about how the fact that it explicitly says an Apostle of Peace can use defensive magic items, yet the vow of poverty feat, a prerequisite for the class cannot allow you to use said items.) :confused: Edit: You are right, I made a mistake, cannot take it until later after 7th level. Build Fixed. Edit: Corrected Venerable stats
Talen Lee 04-13-05, 03:04 AM	Two things leap to mind. First, the notion of combining Apostle of Peace with Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant, and using Precocious Apprentice. Second, the use of the Paragon Human (if human, f'rex) in this build. Take the 1st level at 1st level, gain a nice meaty lump of skills in your choice of class, and take 2nd and 3rd levels of it once you attain a spellcaster (such as Wizard or cleric). The Apostle looks utterly nucking futs for abilities, though; the spellcasting is just ridiculously good, and can be bolted on to an appropriately built level 10 melee build. Oh, boo-hoo, you have to deal nonlethal damage. The only times that matters - up against creatures who are immune to it - you don't have to worry about it.
Ashlan 04-13-05, 03:24 AM	You can't become an Apostle of Peace at 6th level. They require Concentration - 10 Ranks, can you can not get this before 7th level, hence the earliest you can become an Apostle of Peace is 8th level. Ash
gabrion 04-13-05, 04:21 AM	Just one idea. I'm not sure which of the Exalted Feats you really like or need in this build, but if you don't really need all of them, it can be worthwhile to hold of on VoP until late in the build. If you do this, you don't have to worry about "borrowing" books, since you could buy and read them before you get the feat. You still get the other goodies from VoP, plus you can bump up your abilities a bit. Obviously this only works if you really don't need or particularly want the Exalted Feats, but I just thought I would throw the idea out there.
Malfean 04-13-05, 05:25 PM	Since using armor is out of the question i suggest the variant from Arcana unearthed of the cleric who cannot wear armor but has 6+Int skills per level and the bardic lore ability.
Warlord Griffin 04-13-05, 07:36 PM	First, Vow of Poverty at first level is key to getting this build to be good, (Nymph's Kiss). Second, I have never read Arcana Unearthed so I will have to take your word on how good that brand of cleric is. Sounds good though, I will have to pick up the book. Third, Human Paragon and Mystic Thurge cannot be fit easily into this build if I want the ability to deliver calming touch to my foes. Scenario example, lich who hates me casts spell, I reactive counterspell it, if that fails evasion save for half damage. I get in close, use intuitive attack to allow me to get past any armor class he has, calming touch coupled with fury of blows and my aura generated by vow of peace and vow of nonviolence, now he no longer hates me or at least will listen to me. I role diplomacy, he either goes away or joins me in my righteous cause. If that does not work, he is calm enough and I am close enough for a headlock easy :D . After which, I will talk his ear off for about four hours about the benefits of being good, rightousness, and justice and honesty, basicaly the same lecture Bush needs, who says the good guys cannot torture people. :evillaugh
Gothic Rose 04-14-05, 02:03 AM	I believe you could just destroy the Lich instead, since it's undead and all.
deduke 04-14-05, 04:34 AM	on the venerable part, from the SRD: With age, a character’s physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table: Aging Effects). The effects of each aging step are cumulative. However, none of a character’s ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way i did the bolt thing. so yes its -6 to physical stats for +3 to mental stats. If this was not the case becoming older was really unbalanced game wise, all casters wanting to be venerable for insane dc's. regards deDuke
Warlord Griffin 04-14-05, 03:22 PM	To deduke, thanks for the clarification and to Gothic Rose, yes I could destroy the lich but it would just reform later in a bad mood somewhere else, if he is any kind of lich with any sense at all he would have buried his phalerancy as far away from anyone as possible. My character still needs to sleep, and still can be killed by poison. Besides, a rule any adventurer knows is don't kill a potential ally, and with enough diplomacy ANYONE can become a potential ally, or at least back out of your way.
Warlord Griffin 04-22-05, 05:01 PM	Quick idea I wanted to tack on: In order to be good with the Vow of Poverty Feat you must give away, and I am quoting here "most" of your gold, now that does not mean all of, just probably 75% or more of your treasure, the rest you can rationalize giving to the party. How you rationalize it is this, "My character has vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, and vow of peace. These fools cannot compare to my saint like status, but they try and they, despite their only semi-devote ways put up with me being a demandingly devoute individual, so I will give them some of my gold, (the 25% not required to be given away) as compensation for my inconvience on them, at least until I can get them to understand the value of goodness and have them donate it to charity." Obviously you will, NEVER convince them enough. :bounce: :OMG!
rilem 04-22-05, 05:20 PM	Quick idea I wanted to tack on: .... Obviously you will, NEVER convince them enough....OMG! You've got about three violations of various alignment/vow requirements here, and most DMs you try this with will smack you silly. Exalted beings don't play weasel-word games, they don't call their friends "fools" and they don't give money to rich people when poor people are suffering. Also, your argument with the lich could take a while longer than you think. The calming aura you generate is mind-affecting, which the lich is immune to. And Diplomacy doesn't work on everything — read the various Diplomacy builds on the boards here for a discussion of their limitations. You'd be much better off just using Discern Location (via miracle), then putting the lich out of his misery.
foxylady 04-23-05, 01:49 AM	Mysticism domain, as reprinted in Complete Divine, no longer gives a permanent bonus to saving throws.
Warlord Griffin 04-24-05, 02:02 PM	to rilem alright, alright, it does not work exactly as I have written it, but you get the idea right, I am merely saying that the text says you have to give away MOST of your gold, not all of it. Yes most of it will be going to the orphans and the like, but I give the old party of ours a little gold as a type of appology should my character's naturally good nature ever come back to bite us in the haversack as it so often can. Also, a lich can hide their phalerancy even from discern location, and yes I did goof on the mind effecting properties not effecting undead, so yes I would need to turn him and hit him with all my exalted goodness. Finally, yes he is not the end all beat all for diplomatic situations, he is just good for them, very, very good. to foxylady, yes it is for only three rounds a day, but I would like to note, how long does the typical combat last if your party has any kind of cohesive working order, answer, one to six rounds so for half the combat my saves are that good. However if you think it is that bad for the build, slip in fate domain instead, free uncanny dodge along with evasion always is good