Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master of the Squirrel's 11-16-03, 10:08 PM	I won't put in my opinion yet, because I don't want to bias anyone before hand, but the question is: Are the benefits gained by being an Apostle of Peace good enough to make up for the complete lack of ability to damage any living creature? Some might say they are weak, or at the very most, decent, because they can't kill even the BBEG who is smart enough not to get close to their Aura or their Calming Touch. On the other hand, there are those that say the massive AC bonuses, fast progression of spells, and ability to be a melee fighters bane to completely tip the AoP off the charts on power. Being that this is the Character Optimization board, you all know how to extract every last ounce of power out of a given prestige class, so you can tell if it is something really powerful, or just a hindrance for the party. Note: Though we all know flame wars are interesting, try to keep it civil enough that a WizO isn't sicked on the thread. :)
Funny Slaughter 11-16-03, 11:02 PM	try to keep it civil enough that a WizO isn't sicked on the thread. seems that you are too busy winning prizes :) (kudos to your effort!) there are virtually no WizO-interventions over here. i think i saw only one in the few years i spent here. as for the PrC: its inconsistent. vow of poverty: dont own anything (but really little) as part of their sacred vows apostles forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them. nothing to pretend now, its a rule-hole as written. the vows are directly adressed and an exeption is made: apostles of peace my wear magic items even while having the vow of poverty... again there is some inconsistency within the vow of nonviolence: the feat talks about (monstrous) humanoids first, switching to "helpless of defenseless foe" since this is only "any ally of yours" you can just do it yourself. by the rules. unless it is a (monstrous) humanoid. note that the first paragraph (about you) adresses "such a foe" while the second (about your allies) adresses "foe". foes are not only (monstrous) humanoids. the vow of peace does solve this problem here, but without the vow of peace it would be really strange. going for the power now: i think the AoP is powerful. its really really darn freakin powerful. energy substitution(subdual) and you can blast away as there is no tomorrow. all you need is a party sharing all the vows in the best or ignoring you in the worst case. the penalty to everything for killing some foes is annoying so eventually the use of the PrC is limited to the first case. in terms of game mechanics there are not so many differences between real and subdual damage, characters specializing on subdual can become really powerful i think. the only thing you would need is maybe some epic bag of holding you can put all the people you collect into. bring them to a big stellar courthouse then :) to make a short summary of my opinion: wizards had a great idea: how to play a peaceful character. they missed it. i doubt that wizards got the idea that forsaker monks, celestial animal companions and subdual-specialized evokers will go shopping for enemies they published deep-going rule changes and these changes do interact in some strange way with older material. bad playtesting. btw, AoP just cries for advancing the casting with a PrC. a quick build: paladin5/fighter2/AoP4/ND1/disc1/SE1/MT5/hier1 AoP: apostle of peace ND: nar demonbinder disc: divine disciple SE: sacred exorcist MT: mystic theurge hier: hierophant casterlevel for AoP is: AoPl-levels + 1/2 in another class. here: paladin for a total of casterlevel 13 casterlevel for ND is: ND-casterlevel (7th) + other casterlevel of choice (13th) for 20th (too bad one cant use true necromancer...) 9th divine, 8th arcane. access to two domains celestial mount, leadership and dragon mount for some dragon with energy substitution (subdual) for his breathweapon. in fact you can do all the abuse done with ur-priest with the AoP, too. paladin7/AoP4/disc5/cont1/SE1/warrpiest2 would give some more domains. or bard3/paladin4/AoP4/caster-PrC6/dragon disciple3 to get three more 9th level spells. gs Funny
Asterion 11-17-03, 06:16 AM	I think it really depends on how well you can manage with the nonviolence restrictions. If, like me, you simply can't understand how one can play a caster without routinely separating enemies into their constituent atoms, it's not particularly overpowered. But if you're playing a game where the lack of lethal power isn't an issue, it can be extremely powerful. Not quite Ur-Priest powerful, if only for the fact that you get a restricted spell list. As for the bit about magic items on AoPs, the contradiction is in the fluff, so I don't see a rules hole. If you really have to justify it, well, AoPs *can* wear magic items, but doing so breaks their vow of poverty. Poor writing, yes, rules hole, no.
Ranthanas 11-17-03, 07:39 AM	Energy Substitution (Subdual) does indeed make it a scary class. As for a build: Bard 7/AoP 2/Mystic Wanderer 2/Contemplative 2/Divine Oracle 2/Virtuoso 2/Hierophant 3 Cha to Saves and AC (with all saves being high at least twice in there). Evasion. 16 caster levels, 3 hierophant abilities (reach had better be one of them), fair BAB, 9th level Bardic Music (Inspire Greatness) Nar Demonbinder/Contemplative simply doesn't fit in terms of style. I also am avoiding the cheese with Mystic Theurge adding far too much in the way of caster levels. Otherwise: Sorceror 7/AoP 1/Mystic Wanderer 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Contemplative (mysticism) 1/Mystic Theuge 2-10 for Cha to AC and Saves, scary caster levels. Subdual substitute the evocations...
Funny Slaughter 11-17-03, 09:03 AM	I also am avoiding the cheese with Mystic Theurge you are not. you are posting a MT right after this :D i have big fun killing monsters and i really dont know what to do with them if they are laying around subdued. our paladin started to subdue them after his player got the BoED. now we are killing the big foes. and killing the smaller foes in large groups when they ambush us. seems that these filthy unthankful orcs can not appreciate that they got beaten up really hard but not killed. a good monster may think "oh, praise god, they spared my live". an evil monster: "hahah, fools they are, next time i will be prepared" options you have: - cast some geas or similar on every enemy. DM will go for bazillions of goblins, trust me. - have some treck of beaten enemies following you in chains (just joking) - carry some portal to the next courthouse. given the number of enemies a DnD-adventure has it will better be the courthouse on the plane of justice or something. - sit around with all your beaten enemies each time and convince them that following (enter exalted or good god here) is great. plan to play an outsider or time will get some fact after your first levels. (still convincing the first bazillion of goblins?) what i want to express: DnD is a game that does not allow to deal peacefully with evil unless you change the game accordingly. a PrC and/or feats that require you to change the game in order to work is not considered min/max-able by me. i can easily see one or even a few member(s) of the party being such wusses, but there is somebody needed to finish all those monsters or you wont be able to handle them. somebody who does not care about the -10 to everything and likes it to discuss with his comrades night and day. just one thing: not me :rolleyes: gs Funny
hell0 11-17-03, 09:04 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter paladin5/fighter2/AoP4/ND1/disc1/SE1/MT5/hier1 technically, this build doesn't qualify for MT because ND casts 4th level arcane spells, and MT requires 2nd.
Funny Slaughter 11-17-03, 09:40 AM	technically, this build doesn't qualify for MT because ND casts 4th level arcane spells, and MT requires 2nd. haha, got you! let me explain this nice abuse: you qualify for ND. you get 4th and 5th arcane spell-slots. adding a domain via disciple allows you to add the spells known to any of your caster-classes since you do not have a cleric level. this adds a spell known at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. you can cast a 2nd level spell in a 4th level slot, are able to cast 2nd level spells (its only one, but hey) and qualify. in my opinion its perfectly legal min/max and even if it wasnt me alone discovering it and the thread i posted it was pruned i am kind of proud about it :) i think that was the reason for behaving like a kid and waiting for somebody coming around and posting this :) gs Funny
JosephKell 11-17-03, 11:24 AM	The Apostle can be the bane to a fighter, but then again Apostles are for Exalted campaigns, where violence isn't the primary focus. If the campaign you are referring to is one where you plan to have a lot of fighting/killing, then respectfully ask the player to make a different character. But the bane to fighters isn't the Apostle of Peace, it is the Vow of Nonviolence/Vow of Peace.
Eagle Prince 11-17-03, 01:25 PM	At epic level, you could get Ignore Material Componets feat, then get a staff of sanctify the wicked. The feat would let you use an ordinary rock to trap their soul instead of a 10,000gp diamond (cause you don't need even pricey material components IIRC). Then you could just turn everyone you battle into good monsters. Of course, only really possible at epic level, but still kinda cool.
Funny Slaughter 11-17-03, 04:22 PM	trap their soul sure this is the way the good folks work? scary... gs Funny
Eagle Prince 11-17-03, 04:52 PM	Well, it is a good-aligned necromany spell. It does indeed trap their soul, in fact it rips it clean out of their body, but it doesn't kill them. It just imprisons them for like a year, at which time they are let loose as a sanctified creature.
hell0 11-17-03, 06:13 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter you qualify for ND. you get 4th and 5th arcane spell-slots. adding a domain via disciple allows you to add the spells known to any of your caster-classes since you do not have a cleric level. this adds a spell known at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. you can cast a 2nd level spell in a 4th level slot, are able to cast 2nd level spells (its only one, but hey) and qualify. Wow. Legal to the rules (though most DMs prolly wouldn't allow it.) but I didn't expect that. Good idea.
MoogleEmpMog 11-17-03, 10:03 PM	I don't have the BoED on me, but what exactly is the owrding on the Apostle of Peace's not letting his companions kill enemies? I'm picturing a very good hearted Int 4 or 5 AoP who just can't understand why those nice orcs she subdued never came by the temple to learn about her god... or why her companions decided to soak their swords in ketchup after she left the room the orcs were subdued in... :smirk: If it's the god that granted the AoP powers that would know for her to suffer problems, this wouldn't work, though.
JosephKell 11-17-03, 10:18 PM	Monk 1/Cleric 6/Apostle of Peace 5/Thaumaturgist 5/Wonderworker 3 is pretty nice... Base Spells Per Day: 6|5/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1 from Apostle of Peace, Plus the bonus ones from Wonder Worker works out to: 6|5/5/4/4/4/4/3/6/4 And it can Stun like a demon... But its caster level is only 13... But it can have a planar cohort from the Thamaturgist... And it can turn Fiends (starting at level 11...), and it has Exalted Feats out the ying-yang. I have a feeling this thread was prompted by the Apostle of Auris. Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog I don't have the BoED on me, but what exactly is the owrding on the Apostle of Peace's not letting his companions kill enemies? I'm picturing a very good hearted Int 4 or 5 AoP who just can't understand why those nice orcs she subdued never came by the temple to learn about her god... or why her companions decided to soak their swords in ketchup after she left the room the orcs were subdued in... :smirk: If it's the god that granted the AoP powers that would know for her to suffer problems, this wouldn't work, though. It is an Exalted Feat ( Vow of Nonviolence, not the Apostle of Peace), it has nothing to do with the Apostle's knowledge. For each helpless or defenseless goblin he or she killed would grant a -1 (to a max of the character level of the character with Vow of Nonviolence) for 1 hour per character level of the character with the Vow of Nonviolence. Example: I have a character (The Apostle of Auris, Monk 1/Cleric 6/Apostle of Peace 3), and the Paladin's player didn't seem to understand what the meaning of "slaying helpless/defenseless humans and humanoids" meant. If he were to kill a bunch of guys just because they were evil (and they were helpless/defenseless) he would suffer a -1 moral penalty per kill for 10 hours starting from the last slaying. This penalty is to attacks, saves, and checks... pretty much everything. But this also extends to a penalty slaying prisons the Apostle takes... The penalty is one of deep remorse, and there is no save.
Mucknuggle 11-17-03, 10:28 PM	Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but aren't you not allowed to let your friends kill helpless enemies in front of you when you have Vow of Peace? If so, then by blasting them with subdual damage and allowing your friends to kill them, you are going to be breaking your vow.
MoogleEmpMog 11-19-03, 12:34 AM	I'm not saying the Apostle of Peace himself wouldn't understand his own vow (although, interesting character concept: a barbarian who got converted without fully understanding the language, happily pursued and took the vow, went back to killing when his clan went on the warpath and then found out what he'd done was against his vow). What I'm asking is, could an extremely dumb but good-hearted AoP be duped by his party members into believing that they were letting stunned monsters go - when, in fact, they were killing the monsters after the AoP left the room? :smirk: Or would the AoP's god step in and point out that he was inadvertently allowing his companions to slaughter the enemy?
JosephKell 11-19-03, 02:17 AM	Originally posted by Mucknuggle Correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but aren't you not allowed to let your friends kill helpless enemies in front of you when you have Vow of Peace? If so, then by blasting them with subdual damage and allowing your friends to kill them, you are going to be breaking your vow. Difference between letting them and not being in a position to stop them. If one of the other player's slays a helpless or defenseless person, I will have the Apostle attack them (to knock them out), I would take them prisoner, strip them of their possessions and re-educate them in the way of peace. And I would do my best to raise the innocent slain individual to set things right. Anyone my character subdues, he must prevent from being killed, even if that means subduing a [former] ally. I would use one of my 3 stuns per day...
Winter Ayars 11-19-03, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Or would the AoP's god step in and point out that he was inadvertently allowing his companions to slaughter the enemy? I think he would get some sort of divine signal or pick up on it somehow. I mean, even really thick people eventually pick up on it, and people who've just got done slaughtering their enemies are usually pretty "pumped up", so to speak. So i'd say at first a thick AoP would be oblivious, but i'd say it's not liable to go on all campaign :smirk:
Funny Slaughter 11-19-03, 07:59 AM	I think he would get some sort of divine signal or pick up on it somehow thats more a what a DM to do-thread now, but anyhow: as a DM i would send the AoP a dream where he sees his buddies doing their bloodwork. i think his god or the senders (may be celestials) know very well that the AoP is not the smartest and may give him some clue how to react on this. i would give the player the mission to get the other PCs in action and be prepared to stun them all, bind them and bring them to the next temple of his god. they will be teached some lessons by the mighty clerics there, and it should be very obvious that the AoP is directly linked to divine beings. i would have some eladrin sent in to back him up if he somehow fails. the other PCs can now go on a quest to antone for their evil doings (assuming they are not evil) and, of course, the AoP will join them because of his pure heart. voila, your next adventure awaits you and you dont have to put out treasure maps, slaughtered farmers or dragon hords... gs Funny
JosephKell 11-19-03, 11:16 AM	*typo typo* read the feat *typo typo* The feat says that those that do kill helpless/defenseless humanoid or monsterous humanoid suffer a -1 moral penalty (to practically everything) per helpless/defenseless humanoid or monsterous humanoid they kill for one hour per character level of those person with Vow of Nonviolence. The moral penalty can never exceed the character level of the character with Vow of Nonviolence. And the duration is measured from the last killing. The reason they get this penalty is because they are commiting this act so close to something that is nearly a paragim of goodness (a.k.a. the Exalted character with the Vow of Nonviolence). If that doesn't make sense, then look at it this way: The character with the vow of nonviolence is like a skunk, but only those that kill helpless/defenseless humanoids/monsterous humanoids can smell the penalty inducing stink. It has nothing to do with the character who has the feat noticing (and come on... even a character with a Wisdom of 3 can tell when someone is killing, if a Barbarian can have an Intellegence of 3 and fight, a character with a Wisdom of 3 can notice things). Actually a low Wisdom might be a good thing for a truly Exalted character. A low Wisdom represents an inability to notice things in the world. So a low Wisdom might mean a character doesn't notice the differences between creatures. "We're all the same, we can all get along." The Vow of Nonviolence is written in such a way that characters can't cheat the system to ignore the downside.
bitnine 11-19-03, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter energy substitution(subdual) and you can blast away as there is no tomorrow. I've been toying with the idea of an AoP build with subdual substitution and spell thematics, with the spell thematics feat focused on making all of his spells sleep themed. So that his subdual fireball is instead a puff of flower petals and a sickly sweet scent that causes foes to stagger and fall unconsious without real harm. Now, that's not strictly a min/max issue, but I think that having Spell Thematics in that case can help convince a DM who's a bit uncertain about a AoP who heads in blasting with subdual spells like there's no tomorrow that it's not really going against his teachings/feats/theme/etc. And I consider making something more likely to be accepted by a DM at least worthy of note, eh? ;)
JosephKell 11-19-03, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by bitnine I've been toying with the idea of an AoP build with subdual substitution and spell thematics, with the spell thematics feat focused on making all of his spells sleep themed. So that his subdual fireball is instead a puff of flower petals and a sickly sweet scent that causes foes to stagger and fall unconsious without real harm. Now, that's not strictly a min/max issue, but I think that having Spell Thematics in that case can help convince a DM who's a bit uncertain about a AoP who heads in blasting with subdual spells like there's no tomorrow that it's not really going against his teachings/feats/theme/etc. And I consider making something more likely to be accepted by a DM at least worthy of note, eh? ;) Spell Thematics doesn't change the effect, it just makes it look different. So a Nonlethal (subdual) Fireball still uses heat to knock the wind out. It doesn't put them to sleep. But it is weird how much the Monk Synergizes with the Apostle of Peace... Pacifying Touch with Flurry of Blows... Increased Nonlethal Unarmed Damage... And the Monk has all the skills required for the Apostle of Peace without requiring an above average Intellegence. It is too bad you can't return to Monk after finishing Apostle of Peace to get Improved Evasion (but then again, your saves are already quiet impressive)
Funny Slaughter 11-19-03, 02:46 PM	It is too bad you can't return to Monk after finishing Apostle of Peace to get Improved Evasion (but then again, your saves are already quiet impressive) imo improeved evasion is near to useless. a char with a high reflex save and evasion will make it most of the time. a char without a high reflex save will never get improved evasion. (ends short excurse) i like the spell thematics idea. of course there wont be any change in the way how the spell works, i.e. blasting with a fireball. but while a wizard throwing fireballs will cause a big panic in a city an AoP that is letting the flowers fall wont be seen as a danger. in fact enemies without spellcraft may not even be able to sense his doing as an act of aggression. go with still and silent spell and all those orks will ask theirselves where all these flowers are coming from. they may know how a fireball works, but i dont think they can connect this very peacefully man to strange flowers... gs Funny
JosephKell 11-19-03, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter imo improeved evasion is near to useless. a char with a high reflex save and evasion will make it most of the time. a char without a high reflex save will never get improved evasion. (ends short excurse) i like the spell thematics idea. of course there wont be any change in the way how the spell works, i.e. blasting with a fireball. but while a wizard throwing fireballs will cause a big panic in a city an AoP that is letting the flowers fall wont be seen as a danger. in fact enemies without spellcraft may not even be able to sense his doing as an act of aggression. go with still and silent spell and all those orks will ask theirselves where all these flowers are coming from. they may know how a fireball works, but i dont think they can connect this very peacefully man to strange flowers... gs Funny Doesn't a fireball normally shoot from your palm? So wouldn't nonlethal "hot flower burst" thing come from your hand anyway? That is what I liked about Wheel of Time, it described how weaves happened. But it just LOOKS different, it still feels like a sauna that was turned up too high!
bitnine 11-19-03, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell But it just LOOKS different, it still feels like a sauna that was turned up too high! Actually, using energy substitution (subdual) replaces the firey part of the spell. If you tossed a cold subbed fireball it wouldn't feel like a really hot ball of cold ice. Likewise, a subdual subbed fireball would feel like... whatever it is pure subdual damage feels like. Given that one of their descriptions was showing Mage Armor, made of force, to be instead a sheet of rock, simply changing the appearance and applying pure subdual damage seems to be in line with that description, as it's no longer fire damage at all.
JosephKell 11-19-03, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Actually, using energy substitution (subdual) replaces the firey part of the spell. If you tossed a cold subbed fireball it wouldn't feel like a really hot ball of cold ice. Likewise, a subdual subbed fireball would feel like... whatever it is pure subdual damage feels like. Given that one of their descriptions was showing Mage Armor, made of force, to be instead a sheet of rock, simply changing the appearance and applying pure subdual damage seems to be in line with that description, as it's no longer fire damage at all. But it still comes from the caster, so they will see a big flower come and explode into a lot of petals... And Energy Substitution (Subdual) was replaced with Nonlethal Substitution, but you have to select one of the 5 elements, this probably means that it keeps the element. Also this means you need to take the feat 5 times to be able to make any elemental spell nonlethal.