Apostle of Peace/Mystic Theurge Progression Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Apostle of Peace/Mystic Theurge Progression Help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Moonstone
12-05-04, 05:58 PM Hey all,

I am getting into a Forgotten Realms game, centered around Silverymoon. I plan on trying out the Wiz8/AoP2/MS10 build. However, I have not found a true progression with feat suggestions, etc. So, I am asking for the powers of this board :) to help me come up with a feat progression, suggestions on race (human, strongheart halfling, or sun elf... thinking human to get Vow of Poverty at 1st level). So, can anyone help?

Thanks,
Lord Moonstone
Alratan
12-05-04, 06:42 PM If you're going for AoP anyway, then a Sublime Chord build might work quite well, combining the Sublime Chord and AoP caster level language to produce a very silly AoP caster level indeed.

Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Sorcerer 1/Warmage 1/Sublime 2/AoP 2/Mystic Theurge 7

With Practiced Spellcaster [Sublime Chord], has a caster level of 39.

The build may be wrong, but it can be made to work, I think, there may be some way to get another couple of different arcane casters in to the build, wizard and wu jen perhaps, to increase the caster level by another 20.

Hunt undead, using the Hammer of Rigteousness sanctified spell, and deal 39d8 force damage a go.

If you are using LA buyback, a BoED style Half-celestial may help deal with the MAD issues this build has.

Edit: Remember, a VoP wizard can't own a spellbook, or expensive material components, so only spontaneous arcane casters can even think about it.
JosephKell
12-05-04, 07:28 PM Mindbenders have to be non-good.
Alratan
12-06-04, 01:44 PM Back to the drawing board then.
Pauper
12-06-04, 04:13 PM combining the Sublime Chord and AoP caster level language to produce a very silly AoP caster level indeed

This doesn't work, for either AoP or Ur-Priest.

Sublime Chord calculates effective caster level for each arcane spellcasting class possessed by the character to be equal to that class's level plus Sublime Chord level. AoP (and Ur-Priest) calculate caster level based on PrC level plus one-half of the level in all other spellcasting classes. Changing the effective caster level of a class does not change its actual level so this build...

Bard 6/Sorcerer 1/Warmage 1/Sublime 2/AoP 2/Mystic Theurge 7

With Practiced Spellcaster [Sublime Chord]

(Note: deleted level of Mindbender)

...would have the following caster levels (spell acquisition levels), assuming the MT caster advances are added to bard and AoP:

15th level bard (13th level bard)
3rd level sorcerer (1st level sorcerer)
3rd level warmage (1st level warmage)
12th level sublime chord* (2nd level sublime chord)
13th level AoP* (9th level AoP)

* - note that Mystic Theurge is not a 'spellcasting class' - there are no 'Mystic Theurge spells' - so you get only the seven advances applied to AoP, not seven plus half-of-seven for MT being a 'spellcasting class'. Also for this reason you cannot add your Sublime Chord level to your MT level for determining SC caster level.

If instead you wanted to apply your MT advances to Sublime Chord instead of bard, you'd get this:

8th level bard (6th level bard)
3rd level sorcerer (1st level sorcerer)
3rd level warmage (1st level warmage)
19th level sublime chord (9th level sublime chord; see above - the only thing changing is that seven effective caster and spell acquisition levels are 'moving' from bard to SC)
13th level AoP (9th level AoP)

It's not a bad build, far better than the first one I proposed above, but it's also far from broken. And the idea that you should somehow just add up all these different caster levels and cast all your spells at some innately huge effective caster level is simply insupportable by the rules.

[Edit: one other point - most races will take either a 20% or 40% XP hit depending on that race's preferred class, given that bard, sorcerer, and warmage are all 'base' classes. This is one reason I say the build is far from broken, though simply eliminating warmage (losing one effective caster level of AoP in the process) and being a gnome, half-elf, or human will mitigate the XP issues.]

--
Pauper
Ferret
12-06-04, 05:49 PM You could have once been evil as a mind bender then somehow got to be a goody two shoes! Or cursed item.... so you would still have whatever mind bender levels you once had but cant progress anymore. This is if your not starting off as first level characters and can make it a good RP spinoff
Interested2
12-06-04, 06:44 PM Don't even bother with AoP. Try Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Horizon Walker 1.

Gotta grab Versetile so you can qualify for Ur Priest, and you'll need a fairly high intelligence score for the skill points (I'd play as a human) but you get 9th level arcane and 9th level divine spellcasting with this, not to mention rebuke undead, song of arcane power, and 7th level bard abilities. 'Course, then there's the terrain mastery ability, which rocks.
Alratan
12-06-04, 07:25 PM Sublime Chord calculates effective caster level for each arcane spellcasting class possessed by the character to be equal to that class's level plus Sublime Chord level. AoP (and Ur-Priest) calculate caster level based on PrC level plus one-half of the level in all other spellcasting classes.

False and false again. Unlike Ur-Priest, AoP references caster level, not levels in spellcasting classes. Sublime chord caster levels do not work the way you said either, re-read it.

A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane classes is determined by adding her sublime caster level to her level in another arcane caster class. If she has more than one other arance spellcasting class, she must choose which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of calculating her sublime chord caster level

This means that all of the other arcane caster classes are based on the one you choose to add to, in this case bard.

My build was wrong, however: so

Bard 3/Sor 1/Warmage 1/Bard 2/Apostle of Peace 2/Bard 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 7

Human, Half-celestial if using LA buyback

1 Bard Sacred Vow*, Vow of Poverty*, Nymph's Kiss
2 Bard Intuitive Attack (or Vow of Purity)
3 Sor Feat
4 Bard Vow of Nonviolence*
5 Warmage (or Celebrant of Sharess)
6 Bard Purify Spell, Vow of Peace*
7 Bard
8 AoP Nimbus of Light
9 AoP Feat
10 Bard Holy Radiance
11 Bard
12 Sublime Feat, Words of Creation**
13 Sublime
14 MyTh Exalted Feat
15 MyTh Feat
16 MyTh Exalted Feat
17 MyTh
18 MyTh Feat, Exalted Feat
19 MyTh
20 MyTh Exalted Feat

*Required Feat
** If meets Int Pre-req

Caster levels:

Sublime chord 16 (20 with Practiced caster [Sublime chord])
Bard 16
Sorcerer 16
Warmage (or Celebrant of Sharess) 16
Apostle of Peace 41 (43 with Practiced Caster [Sublime Chord])

Note that by the rules, a PrC which grants +1 spells etc, advances all the benefits of base class's spells section. The caster level rules for sublime chord are in the spells section, so PrC's which add to SC will count as SC levels for advancing the bard, warmage, sorcerer, caster level as well. Re-reading the section I have quoted above, which makes it clear that any PrC which advances Sublime Chord caster level has to advance all other arcane caster level, as the word both in the quote makes clear.

The XP penalty is not a problem for a human or a gnome, or a half-elf. Ignore the bard levels and the remaining two core classes are within 2 levels of each other.

As an example, this character could cast a purified twinned Hammer of Rigteousness against an evil outsider to deal 172d6 non-lethal force damage.
Aznar Thrul
12-06-04, 07:59 PM Don't even bother with AoP. Try Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Horizon Walker 1.

he is going to play in FR and you suggest Ur-priest?!!!

Are you aware of the problem this class can cause sure if your a power gamer you don't think about the roleplayin of this character, but he will never be accepted anywhere in the realm(stealin god power...)

the only race that are more likely to be Ur-priest are kir-lanan(something like that, gargoyle that hate the gods)

and most likely a Ur-priest will go root as a false in the fugue plane.(if you care for your character you don't want this to happen)

and team work will be impossible(character have faith and you steal their gods...)
Interested2
12-07-04, 06:02 AM Look, this is character optimization, not Role Playing. While I know that the two are not opposites, he did not ask for a character that was easy to RP. Run a search on these forums for Ur-Priest and see how many times its used. It's used a *lot*.
Alratan
12-07-04, 10:08 AM I've added the bare bones of a feat progression to my build above.
Core
12-07-04, 11:37 AM It may be a roleplaying problem, however switching from AoP, an exalted PrC to Ur-Priest, an "any evil" class, suggests that it's not really going to happen :p
Lord Moonstone
12-08-04, 10:55 AM Hey all,

Very impressive work... although I am still fuzzy on the whole spellcaster levels for Sublime Chord. Regardless, I asked my DM about it... and he will be allowing a Wizard to use a spellbook with Vow of Poverty, and since it is much less complicated with PrCs (for DMs take)... I think I'm going that way.

So... feat progression and racial suggestions for:

Wiz8/AoP2/MS10 (or an upgraded build)

Thank you all SO much for the help so far,

Lord Moonstone
Lord Moonstone
12-10-04, 12:19 PM Pretty please????

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Moonstone 12-05-04, 05:58 PM	Hey all, I am getting into a Forgotten Realms game, centered around Silverymoon. I plan on trying out the Wiz8/AoP2/MS10 build. However, I have not found a true progression with feat suggestions, etc. So, I am asking for the powers of this board :) to help me come up with a feat progression, suggestions on race (human, strongheart halfling, or sun elf... thinking human to get Vow of Poverty at 1st level). So, can anyone help? Thanks, Lord Moonstone
Alratan 12-05-04, 06:42 PM	If you're going for AoP anyway, then a Sublime Chord build might work quite well, combining the Sublime Chord and AoP caster level language to produce a very silly AoP caster level indeed. Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Sorcerer 1/Warmage 1/Sublime 2/AoP 2/Mystic Theurge 7 With Practiced Spellcaster [Sublime Chord], has a caster level of 39. The build may be wrong, but it can be made to work, I think, there may be some way to get another couple of different arcane casters in to the build, wizard and wu jen perhaps, to increase the caster level by another 20. Hunt undead, using the Hammer of Rigteousness sanctified spell, and deal 39d8 force damage a go. If you are using LA buyback, a BoED style Half-celestial may help deal with the MAD issues this build has. Edit: Remember, a VoP wizard can't own a spellbook, or expensive material components, so only spontaneous arcane casters can even think about it.
JosephKell 12-05-04, 07:28 PM	Mindbenders have to be non-good.
Alratan 12-06-04, 01:44 PM	Back to the drawing board then.
Pauper 12-06-04, 04:13 PM	combining the Sublime Chord and AoP caster level language to produce a very silly AoP caster level indeed This doesn't work, for either AoP or Ur-Priest. Sublime Chord calculates effective caster level for each arcane spellcasting class possessed by the character to be equal to that class's level plus Sublime Chord level. AoP (and Ur-Priest) calculate caster level based on PrC level plus one-half of the level in all other spellcasting classes. Changing the effective caster level of a class does not change its actual level so this build... Bard 6/Sorcerer 1/Warmage 1/Sublime 2/AoP 2/Mystic Theurge 7 With Practiced Spellcaster [Sublime Chord] (Note: deleted level of Mindbender) ...would have the following caster levels (spell acquisition levels), assuming the MT caster advances are added to bard and AoP: 15th level bard (13th level bard) 3rd level sorcerer (1st level sorcerer) 3rd level warmage (1st level warmage) 12th level sublime chord* (2nd level sublime chord) 13th level AoP* (9th level AoP) * - note that Mystic Theurge is not a 'spellcasting class' - there are no 'Mystic Theurge spells' - so you get only the seven advances applied to AoP, not seven plus half-of-seven for MT being a 'spellcasting class'. Also for this reason you cannot add your Sublime Chord level to your MT level for determining SC caster level. If instead you wanted to apply your MT advances to Sublime Chord instead of bard, you'd get this: 8th level bard (6th level bard) 3rd level sorcerer (1st level sorcerer) 3rd level warmage (1st level warmage) 19th level sublime chord (9th level sublime chord; see above - the only thing changing is that seven effective caster and spell acquisition levels are 'moving' from bard to SC) 13th level AoP (9th level AoP) It's not a bad build, far better than the first one I proposed above, but it's also far from broken. And the idea that you should somehow just add up all these different caster levels and cast all your spells at some innately huge effective caster level is simply insupportable by the rules. [Edit: one other point - most races will take either a 20% or 40% XP hit depending on that race's preferred class, given that bard, sorcerer, and warmage are all 'base' classes. This is one reason I say the build is far from broken, though simply eliminating warmage (losing one effective caster level of AoP in the process) and being a gnome, half-elf, or human will mitigate the XP issues.] -- Pauper
Ferret 12-06-04, 05:49 PM	You could have once been evil as a mind bender then somehow got to be a goody two shoes! Or cursed item.... so you would still have whatever mind bender levels you once had but cant progress anymore. This is if your not starting off as first level characters and can make it a good RP spinoff
Interested2 12-06-04, 06:44 PM	Don't even bother with AoP. Try Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Horizon Walker 1. Gotta grab Versetile so you can qualify for Ur Priest, and you'll need a fairly high intelligence score for the skill points (I'd play as a human) but you get 9th level arcane and 9th level divine spellcasting with this, not to mention rebuke undead, song of arcane power, and 7th level bard abilities. 'Course, then there's the terrain mastery ability, which rocks.
Alratan 12-06-04, 07:25 PM	Sublime Chord calculates effective caster level for each arcane spellcasting class possessed by the character to be equal to that class's level plus Sublime Chord level. AoP (and Ur-Priest) calculate caster level based on PrC level plus one-half of the level in all other spellcasting classes. False and false again. Unlike Ur-Priest, AoP references caster level, not levels in spellcasting classes. Sublime chord caster levels do not work the way you said either, re-read it. A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane classes is determined by adding her sublime caster level to her level in another arcane caster class. If she has more than one other arance spellcasting class, she must choose which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of calculating her sublime chord caster level This means that all of the other arcane caster classes are based on the one you choose to add to, in this case bard. My build was wrong, however: so Bard 3/Sor 1/Warmage 1/Bard 2/Apostle of Peace 2/Bard 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 7 Human, Half-celestial if using LA buyback 1 Bard Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss 2 Bard Intuitive Attack (or Vow of Purity) 3 Sor Feat 4 Bard Vow of Nonviolence* 5 Warmage (or Celebrant of Sharess) 6 Bard Purify Spell, Vow of Peace* 7 Bard 8 AoP Nimbus of Light 9 AoP Feat 10 Bard Holy Radiance 11 Bard 12 Sublime Feat, Words of Creation** 13 Sublime 14 MyTh Exalted Feat 15 MyTh Feat 16 MyTh Exalted Feat 17 MyTh 18 MyTh Feat, Exalted Feat 19 MyTh 20 MyTh Exalted Feat Required Feat * If meets Int Pre-req Caster levels: Sublime chord 16 (20 with Practiced caster [Sublime chord]) Bard 16 Sorcerer 16 Warmage (or Celebrant of Sharess) 16 Apostle of Peace 41 (43 with Practiced Caster [Sublime Chord]) Note that by the rules, a PrC which grants +1 spells etc, advances all the benefits of base class's spells section. The caster level rules for sublime chord are in the spells section, so PrC's which add to SC will count as SC levels for advancing the bard, warmage, sorcerer, caster level as well. Re-reading the section I have quoted above, which makes it clear that any PrC which advances Sublime Chord caster level has to advance all other arcane caster level, as the word both in the quote makes clear. The XP penalty is not a problem for a human or a gnome, or a half-elf. Ignore the bard levels and the remaining two core classes are within 2 levels of each other. As an example, this character could cast a purified twinned Hammer of Rigteousness against an evil outsider to deal 172d6 non-lethal force damage.
Aznar Thrul 12-06-04, 07:59 PM	Don't even bother with AoP. Try Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Horizon Walker 1. he is going to play in FR and you suggest Ur-priest?!!! Are you aware of the problem this class can cause sure if your a power gamer you don't think about the roleplayin of this character, but he will never be accepted anywhere in the realm(stealin god power...) the only race that are more likely to be Ur-priest are kir-lanan(something like that, gargoyle that hate the gods) and most likely a Ur-priest will go root as a false in the fugue plane.(if you care for your character you don't want this to happen) and team work will be impossible(character have faith and you steal their gods...)
Interested2 12-07-04, 06:02 AM	Look, this is character optimization, not Role Playing. While I know that the two are not opposites, he did not ask for a character that was easy to RP. Run a search on these forums for Ur-Priest and see how many times its used. It's used a lot.
Alratan 12-07-04, 10:08 AM	I've added the bare bones of a feat progression to my build above.
Core 12-07-04, 11:37 AM	It may be a roleplaying problem, however switching from AoP, an exalted PrC to Ur-Priest, an "any evil" class, suggests that it's not really going to happen :p
Lord Moonstone 12-08-04, 10:55 AM	Hey all, Very impressive work... although I am still fuzzy on the whole spellcaster levels for Sublime Chord. Regardless, I asked my DM about it... and he will be allowing a Wizard to use a spellbook with Vow of Poverty, and since it is much less complicated with PrCs (for DMs take)... I think I'm going that way. So... feat progression and racial suggestions for: Wiz8/AoP2/MS10 (or an upgraded build) Thank you all SO much for the help so far, Lord Moonstone
Lord Moonstone 12-10-04, 12:19 PM	Pretty please????