arachnomancer build, need advice please [Archive] - Wizards Community

arachnomancer build, need advice please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iblis
02-19-04, 06:00 PM hi everybody,

my favorite race is drow (for rp reasons) and my favorite PrC for drows is arachnomancer from underdark. I tried to make two builds and i need some advice to optimize them I am not so good at it myself.

the first is a kind of figther-mage

Drow 0/ Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 3/ Arachnemancer 10/ XXX 4

the four last may be used for eldritch knight, warshaper, Drow 2

With the EK 4, we end up with 13 CL (7th lvl spells) and bab of 15. Not too bad i think.

and the other way is without loosing too much caster lvls

Wiz 6/ mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 10/ XXX 3

the three last could be Drow 2 or any PrC with full caster progression.

Some good feats: spell thematic, arcane strike (for the first), spell casting prodigy...

please help to make these two builds better. I have access to any book except Unearthed Arcana

thank for your help

WB
Snow Savant
02-19-04, 06:12 PM I too, dig the Arachnomancer. But I honestly like taking just 1 level of it, then role-playing the Arachnomancer personality for the rest of the life of the build.

Sorceror5 / MageArcaneOrder2 / Arachnomancer1

This 8th level build is quite versatile - and has full spellcaster progression. The MotAO Spell Pool easily proxies for the spell pre-requisites of the Arachnomancer, in the event you wish not to take the spells as "spells learned".

And Sorceror benefits from the 15 spells that Arachno gives to its spell list.

If you can, be a Half-Drow instead of a Drow. You get Darkvision 60', and no ECL +2 hootenany to have to deal with.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
nihility
02-19-04, 06:18 PM Drow 0 doesn't have an ECL, either. To review, Drow 0 bags you:Drow Base Racial Features

All of the following are base racial abilities for the drow.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence.

Size: Drow are Medium size.

Speed: Drow base land speed is 30 feet.

Proficiencies: A drow is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword.

Dancing Lights (Sp): A drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.

Darkvision (Ex): A drow has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Immunities (Ex): A drow is immune to magic sleep effects.

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, he is dazzled as long as he remains in the affected area.

Skill Bonuses: A drow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Furthermore, a drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it. So, you take Light-Blindess in exchange for +2 to INT, darkvision, and a minor spell-like ability vs. a standard elf, as well as somewhat different weapons. Versus a half-drow, they get the ability mods (good for a wizard or rogue if you can get around the CON hit) have the same darkvision, and a worse favored class.

I'd say both Drow 0 and half-Drow have merit, though I would lean towards the Drow 0.
Funny Slaughter
02-19-04, 06:28 PM light-blindness means one feat less in most cases since its really annoying in a non-underdark-campaign.

in this case i favor the standard drow, just out of roleplaying reasons. if you are interested in playing a half-drow with this build i would say its a bit better.

i also second snows advice, arachnomancer is a great class rp-wise, but the abilities are not as worthy as the lost casterlevels and with all the spells on your list you are well prepared as a sorcerer.

gs
Funny
nihility
02-19-04, 07:33 PM light-blindness means one feat less in most cases since its really annoying in a non-underdark-campaign. Oops, I misread the post. I thought it was an underdark campaign, but I appear to have made this up on my own. As you say, the light blindness definitely tips the scales in the half-drow's favor if you live on the surface. Of course, the Drow has the flavor. Mmmm... flavor.
Iblis
02-19-04, 09:26 PM It is really an honnor for me to see that legends of this boards like FS, nihility, and doctor snow replied:bow:

@ FS and Nihility: thanks for your advice. I'll ponder it carefully when i'll choose my feats.

@ Snow Savant : thanks for advice. I am sorry to tell you that but Sor 5/ MotAO 2 does not qualify for Arachnomancer because of the +4 needed in fortitude. Don't be afraid I know what you are talking about I saw your build in the "Evil Sorc Combo = MotAO + Arachnomancer" thread and in the "Best Sorcerer Build with FULL lvl 20 caster level?" thread(even if in this last one arachnomancer should be taken after divine orcle for the same reason as here the fort requirement ).

WB
nihility
02-19-04, 10:18 PM Something just occurred to me regarding Drow 0.

So, you bag +2 to INT at the cost of having to take the daylight adaptation feat. Probably not the greatest trade, since you could have just played a Sun Elf, and plus you could have used that feat on Spellcasting Prodigy. However, Spellcasting Prodigy is set to be nerfed, or so say the rumors/ interviews/ whatever, so the analysis changes a bit. Additionally, Drow have the flavor, which has been previously established to be both succulent and spicy. The way I see it, a player with Drow in their heart has the following options with the following advantages.

Half Drow: Darkvision, half-elf stuff, favored class: any. The darkvision is nice, but the favored class is no advantage for a primary caster, since they should only have one base class.

Drow 0: Effectively spends a feat to get standard elf mods and traits, as well as +2 to INT. To my thinking, if Spellcasting Prodigy is good, then this is a good trade relative to half-drow.

Drow 2: Gains SR and other bonuses at the cost of two levels. In terms of power, probably the worst of the three for a caster.
Vysirez
02-20-04, 02:00 AM Good way to look at it. Instead of taking spellcasting prodigy at 1st level you take daylight adaption, end result is the +2 int counts for everything instead of just spellcasting.
nihility
02-20-04, 04:53 PM Okay, so you like the spiders, but we'd like more caster levels. How to do it? Well, it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to summon spiders really well? Just be evil? Make Lolth love you? Anyway, here's another version from the sorceror angle:

Half-Drow Sorceror 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 1/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Alienist 1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Arcane Devotee 5

So, you've got SR just like your full Drow cousins, you're down with Lolth, you summon pseudonatural spiders that you can command mentally, and you're good in a pinch. Not bad, and I think it is an interesting concept. Maybe you're overcompensating or something?

Here's one from the wizard angle:

Drow 0 Wizard 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 1/ Alienist 1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Elemental Savant 9

You've got the pseudonatural elemental spiders going on, which I think is lovely. In case you're wondering, Divine Oracle shows up in both versions because I think it would be a shame to have the reflex-boost from Arachnomancer and not have Evasion to go with it. Elemental Savant 9 makes this vaguely epic-ready; alternately, you can drop it to 7 and maybe work in Archmage, since the build is pretty light on feat requirements, or maybe toss in some more Alienist to up your saves.
Iblis
02-20-04, 06:54 PM I am really impressed, I really like the flavor these builds have.

thanks again

WB
nihility
02-20-04, 07:03 PM Glad you like them. For the familiar, I think you've really got no choice. It's the Hairy Spider familiar all the way.
nihility
02-20-04, 07:41 PM Here's an Arachnomancer gish, if you still like that angle:

Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Eldritch Knight 8

BAB +16, 17th caster level. One short of 9th level spells for a sorceror, sadly. The Drow 0 wizard version can get 9th level spells, though I fear the CON hit greatly. I suppose you could do a Half-drow wizard version, but Half-Drow seems to fit sorceror better to me.

From this base, consider adding Thrall of Orcus or Dragonslayer if the flavor-free nature of the Eldritch Knight bothers you. For 9th level spells, drop the Arachnomancer down to one and add one of these classes, plus bump EK to 10.

Edit: I like this version even more, since it makes better use of your high CHA

Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Blackguard 3/ Eldritch Knight 5

BAB +16, only 14th lever caster now. However, you add your CHA to your saves (nice), can cast some divine spells (wands of cure light wounds are not to be underestimated), and you qualify for Divine Might (CHA to damage!). Oh, and you're basically a paragon of darkness and evil. Good for you.
Iblis
02-21-04, 04:56 AM wow, it's awesome.

Nihility your builds are great. And I really like the way you explain the benefits of your builds, it gives almost live to them and I already see a way to play them.

really awesome.

WS
nihility
02-21-04, 10:28 PM I was checking around, and it seems that Snow advocates not taking Alienist if you can customize summoned monster via the rules in Dragon #302. Something to think about if your DM allows this. Also, I'm not sure, but the pseudonatural and elemental templates might not be able to be applied to the same creature. I don't have access to the books at the moment, so I can't check. If there's a conflict, I'd ditch it entirely from the Elemental Savant version and get more Archmage or ES levels.

Anyway, I'm glad I could help. When you finalize your character, please post it here, I'd like to see what you do in the end. I might actually play an Arachnomancer myself now that I've tried to explore it from different angles. I'm still trying to work out a good way to take advantage of the poison touch ability; maybe Shou Disciple?
Anonymouse
02-21-04, 11:30 PM Just a quick question, why do all of these builds use sorceror with the arachnomancer?
nihility
02-21-04, 11:49 PM It's not that big of a thing, actually. Arachnomancer adds a bunch of spells to your spell list, including several that you might not know otherwise. This tends to favor Sorcerors a bit more than Wizards, but the difference isn't too great. The fact that a number of spells are of the kind that you'd what to cast a lot tips it more in the Sorceror's favor. Finally, I think Snow digs it a lot because it gives you even more options for summoning; I'm guessing here, but it seems to fit. The PrC is trivial to get into, so it's really easy to work it into builds to fill out a level with some nice abilities and a bump to the reflex save.

However, the big thing is that Sorceror + Mage of the Arcane Order is super-strong, and Sorceror is generally considered better for Gish builds. So, Sorceror shows up in both the full-caster version and the Gish version, while Wizard only shows up in the full-caster version. That said, Wizard Gish are fine, too.
nihility
02-21-04, 11:51 PM I should also point out that the class gets d6 hit dice and 4+INT skills from a nice list, which makes it attractive in and of itself when combined with the trivial entrance requirements.
Anonymouse
02-22-04, 12:01 AM I think I understand, but the fact that the spider spells don't actually add to the sorceror's spells known made me think it favored the wizard more.
horndgod
02-22-04, 04:21 AM Originally posted by nihility
Here's an Arachnomancer gish, if you still like that angle:

Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Eldritch Knight 8

BAB +16, 17th caster level. One short of 9th level spells for a sorceror, sadly. The Drow 0 wizard version can get 9th level spells, though I fear the CON hit greatly. I suppose you could do a Half-drow wizard version, but Half-Drow seems to fit sorceror better to me.

From this base, consider adding Thrall of Orcus or Dragonslayer if the flavor-free nature of the Eldritch Knight bothers you. For 9th level spells, drop the Arachnomancer down to one and add one of these classes, plus bump EK to 10.

I don't know the prereqs for Arachnomancer, but if you can go Sorceror6/ Arachnomancer4 you can drop the level in Fighter for Dragonslayer and net an additional caster level.

As for the Blackguard build, it would be a bit feat intensive, but you could try to get some Arcane Archer in there. No one ever said you have to be a surface elf to be an Arcane Archer. :devil:
nihility
02-22-04, 10:49 AM Sorc. 6 does not qualify for Arachnomancer, since you need a base Fort save of +4 to get in. I know of no base arcane caster class that gets Fort as a good save.

Additionally, Blackguard is the only PrC in the build that requires any feats at all to enter, so the build overall is pretty feat-light. Additionally, you would want to take Power Attack anyway, so it may as well only require two feats. Dragonslayer is still a possible choice, but I couldn't see how to work it in without making the build more feat-intensive than I was okay with. That said, if you find a way, let us know.

As for the Arcane Archer option, I personally loathe that PrC. It's personal preference, but I honestly can't think of any reason I'd ever include more than a two-level dip for Imbue Arrow. Beyond letting you mess with the ranges of your spells, I don't see it giving you any other meaningful advantages. So, basically, if I'm going to spend three feats to go into a PrC, I think Blackguard provides a lot more in the way of advantages. Don't forget that the Blackguard's Command/Rebuke Undead ability, along with Power Attack which you needed to get in, qualifies you for Divine Might in addition to all the other benefits of the class. Additionally, I think Blackguard has a great deal more "flavor synergy" with the build. That's just me, though.
nihility
02-22-04, 10:53 AM If the first Gish dropped Arachnomancer to 1 and added in two more levels of EK and a level of Dragonslayer, it would make BAB 16 and caster level 18. However, that feels less like an Arachnomancer build to me; I was really trying to work at least 4 levels into the Gish builds for flavor reasons.
Iblis
02-22-04, 03:28 PM here is a build

Spiderman

Fighter 1/Sorceror 6/Arachnomancer 4/Spellsword 1/Black Guard 3/ Eldritch Knight 5

Hit Dice 1d10 + 6d4 + 4d6 + 1d8 + 3d10 + 5d6

Base Attack Bonus +16/+11/+6/+1; Saves +14/+08/+10;

Caster Level: Sorcerer 14th (7th lvl spl), Black guard 3 (2nd lvl spl)

Requires: feats: (BG)power attack, cleave, improved sunder.
skills: (Arc) climb 3, knowledge(nature) 4, (Sps) knowledge(arcana) 6, (BG) hide 5, knowledge(religion) 2.
spells: web, summon swarm, spider climb
Alignement: evil

Attribute Distribution
25 pt: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
28 pt: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
32 pt: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Rolled: Cha, Str 13+, Con, Dex, Wis (12), Int.

01 Ftr 1: Spellcasting prodigy, Power attack
02 Ftr 1/Src 1:
03 Ftr 1/Src 2: improved sunder
04 Ftr 1/Src 3:
05 Ftr 1/Src 4:
06 Ftr 1/Src 5: cleave
07 Ftr 1/Src 6:
08 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 1: poison save bonus, spider magic, speak with spiders
09 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2: arcane strike, spiderform(S,M,L)
10 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1: ignore spell failure 10%
11 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 1: aura of evil, detect good, poison use.
12 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 2: feat, dark blessing, smite good 1/day
13 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 3: command undead, aura of despair
14 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1:divine might
15 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 3/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1: feat, poison touch
16 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1: command spiders
17 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 2:
18 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 3: feat
19 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 4:
20 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 5:

familiar : hairy spider of course

some feats: leadership or improved familiar : take an imp as cohort(he has alternate form spider) .
spell thematics, silent spell, eschew materials, surrogate spellcasting if you want to cast spells in spider form, improved initiative, quick draw...

edit

edited stats following advice of nihility
nihility
02-23-04, 12:01 AM Very cool. The Blackguard version was my favorite of the bunch, and a friend of mine actually wants to use the build as a boss-type character in a future campaign.

Good call on the Improved Initiative and Quickdraw feats. They don't seem like much on paper sometimes, but I've never regretted taking them. Many people around here consider Improved Initiative one of the best feats around period, since going first is a good thing no matter what your character does. Spell Thematics is positively delightful; I assume all your spells would have a spider theme?

Silent Spell has one problem for casting: it doesn't provide somatic components. This is fine if your DM decides that a spider's limbs are as dextrous and capable of fine motion as a human hand. If so, no problem. However, your DM may decide otherwise. In this case, you might consider the feat Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species. It allows you to substitute vocalizations and motions of your alternate form for the normal components, but it requires WIS 13.

You could potentially drop Spellcasting Prodigy, since you'll probably be focusing on spells that don't have DCs (buffs, battle control like web, etc...). It is certainly a strong feat, though, no doubt.

The ability scores look good, with the exception that you might want a higher CON in the higher point buys. Personally, I'd divert some STR into CON, maybe 14 and 15, then raise the 15 CON to 16 at level 4. Additionally, you have lots of sources of extra damage to make up for a lower STR scores. Basically, my philosophy is "don't die," so I really like CON.

Overall, very nice. Have fun!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iblis 02-19-04, 06:00 PM	hi everybody, my favorite race is drow (for rp reasons) and my favorite PrC for drows is arachnomancer from underdark. I tried to make two builds and i need some advice to optimize them I am not so good at it myself. the first is a kind of figther-mage Drow 0/ Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 3/ Arachnemancer 10/ XXX 4 the four last may be used for eldritch knight, warshaper, Drow 2 With the EK 4, we end up with 13 CL (7th lvl spells) and bab of 15. Not too bad i think. and the other way is without loosing too much caster lvls Wiz 6/ mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 10/ XXX 3 the three last could be Drow 2 or any PrC with full caster progression. Some good feats: spell thematic, arcane strike (for the first), spell casting prodigy... please help to make these two builds better. I have access to any book except Unearthed Arcana thank for your help WB
Snow Savant 02-19-04, 06:12 PM	I too, dig the Arachnomancer. But I honestly like taking just 1 level of it, then role-playing the Arachnomancer personality for the rest of the life of the build. Sorceror5 / MageArcaneOrder2 / Arachnomancer1 This 8th level build is quite versatile - and has full spellcaster progression. The MotAO Spell Pool easily proxies for the spell pre-requisites of the Arachnomancer, in the event you wish not to take the spells as "spells learned". And Sorceror benefits from the 15 spells that Arachno gives to its spell list. If you can, be a Half-Drow instead of a Drow. You get Darkvision 60', and no ECL +2 hootenany to have to deal with. XO, Snow :cloud9:
nihility 02-19-04, 06:18 PM	Drow 0 doesn't have an ECL, either. To review, Drow 0 bags you:Drow Base Racial Features All of the following are base racial abilities for the drow. Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. Size: Drow are Medium size. Speed: Drow base land speed is 30 feet. Proficiencies: A drow is proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword. Dancing Lights (Sp): A drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day. Darkvision (Ex): A drow has darkvision to a 60-foot range. Immunities (Ex): A drow is immune to magic sleep effects. Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, he is dazzled as long as he remains in the affected area. Skill Bonuses: A drow has a +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Furthermore, a drow who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if he were actively looking for it. So, you take Light-Blindess in exchange for +2 to INT, darkvision, and a minor spell-like ability vs. a standard elf, as well as somewhat different weapons. Versus a half-drow, they get the ability mods (good for a wizard or rogue if you can get around the CON hit) have the same darkvision, and a worse favored class. I'd say both Drow 0 and half-Drow have merit, though I would lean towards the Drow 0.
Funny Slaughter 02-19-04, 06:28 PM	light-blindness means one feat less in most cases since its really annoying in a non-underdark-campaign. in this case i favor the standard drow, just out of roleplaying reasons. if you are interested in playing a half-drow with this build i would say its a bit better. i also second snows advice, arachnomancer is a great class rp-wise, but the abilities are not as worthy as the lost casterlevels and with all the spells on your list you are well prepared as a sorcerer. gs Funny
nihility 02-19-04, 07:33 PM	light-blindness means one feat less in most cases since its really annoying in a non-underdark-campaign. Oops, I misread the post. I thought it was an underdark campaign, but I appear to have made this up on my own. As you say, the light blindness definitely tips the scales in the half-drow's favor if you live on the surface. Of course, the Drow has the flavor. Mmmm... flavor.
Iblis 02-19-04, 09:26 PM	It is really an honnor for me to see that legends of this boards like FS, nihility, and doctor snow replied:bow: @ FS and Nihility: thanks for your advice. I'll ponder it carefully when i'll choose my feats. @ Snow Savant : thanks for advice. I am sorry to tell you that but Sor 5/ MotAO 2 does not qualify for Arachnomancer because of the +4 needed in fortitude. Don't be afraid I know what you are talking about I saw your build in the "Evil Sorc Combo = MotAO + Arachnomancer" thread and in the "Best Sorcerer Build with FULL lvl 20 caster level?" thread(even if in this last one arachnomancer should be taken after divine orcle for the same reason as here the fort requirement ). WB
nihility 02-19-04, 10:18 PM	Something just occurred to me regarding Drow 0. So, you bag +2 to INT at the cost of having to take the daylight adaptation feat. Probably not the greatest trade, since you could have just played a Sun Elf, and plus you could have used that feat on Spellcasting Prodigy. However, Spellcasting Prodigy is set to be nerfed, or so say the rumors/ interviews/ whatever, so the analysis changes a bit. Additionally, Drow have the flavor, which has been previously established to be both succulent and spicy. The way I see it, a player with Drow in their heart has the following options with the following advantages. Half Drow: Darkvision, half-elf stuff, favored class: any. The darkvision is nice, but the favored class is no advantage for a primary caster, since they should only have one base class. Drow 0: Effectively spends a feat to get standard elf mods and traits, as well as +2 to INT. To my thinking, if Spellcasting Prodigy is good, then this is a good trade relative to half-drow. Drow 2: Gains SR and other bonuses at the cost of two levels. In terms of power, probably the worst of the three for a caster.
Vysirez 02-20-04, 02:00 AM	Good way to look at it. Instead of taking spellcasting prodigy at 1st level you take daylight adaption, end result is the +2 int counts for everything instead of just spellcasting.
nihility 02-20-04, 04:53 PM	Okay, so you like the spiders, but we'd like more caster levels. How to do it? Well, it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to summon spiders really well? Just be evil? Make Lolth love you? Anyway, here's another version from the sorceror angle: Half-Drow Sorceror 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 1/ Mage of the Arcane Order 4/ Alienist 1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Arcane Devotee 5 So, you've got SR just like your full Drow cousins, you're down with Lolth, you summon pseudonatural spiders that you can command mentally, and you're good in a pinch. Not bad, and I think it is an interesting concept. Maybe you're overcompensating or something? Here's one from the wizard angle: Drow 0 Wizard 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arachnomancer 1/ Alienist 1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Elemental Savant 9 You've got the pseudonatural elemental spiders going on, which I think is lovely. In case you're wondering, Divine Oracle shows up in both versions because I think it would be a shame to have the reflex-boost from Arachnomancer and not have Evasion to go with it. Elemental Savant 9 makes this vaguely epic-ready; alternately, you can drop it to 7 and maybe work in Archmage, since the build is pretty light on feat requirements, or maybe toss in some more Alienist to up your saves.
Iblis 02-20-04, 06:54 PM	I am really impressed, I really like the flavor these builds have. thanks again WB
nihility 02-20-04, 07:03 PM	Glad you like them. For the familiar, I think you've really got no choice. It's the Hairy Spider familiar all the way.
nihility 02-20-04, 07:41 PM	Here's an Arachnomancer gish, if you still like that angle: Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Eldritch Knight 8 BAB +16, 17th caster level. One short of 9th level spells for a sorceror, sadly. The Drow 0 wizard version can get 9th level spells, though I fear the CON hit greatly. I suppose you could do a Half-drow wizard version, but Half-Drow seems to fit sorceror better to me. From this base, consider adding Thrall of Orcus or Dragonslayer if the flavor-free nature of the Eldritch Knight bothers you. For 9th level spells, drop the Arachnomancer down to one and add one of these classes, plus bump EK to 10. Edit: I like this version even more, since it makes better use of your high CHA Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Blackguard 3/ Eldritch Knight 5 BAB +16, only 14th lever caster now. However, you add your CHA to your saves (nice), can cast some divine spells (wands of cure light wounds are not to be underestimated), and you qualify for Divine Might (CHA to damage!). Oh, and you're basically a paragon of darkness and evil. Good for you.
Iblis 02-21-04, 04:56 AM	wow, it's awesome. Nihility your builds are great. And I really like the way you explain the benefits of your builds, it gives almost live to them and I already see a way to play them. really awesome. WS
nihility 02-21-04, 10:28 PM	I was checking around, and it seems that Snow advocates not taking Alienist if you can customize summoned monster via the rules in Dragon #302. Something to think about if your DM allows this. Also, I'm not sure, but the pseudonatural and elemental templates might not be able to be applied to the same creature. I don't have access to the books at the moment, so I can't check. If there's a conflict, I'd ditch it entirely from the Elemental Savant version and get more Archmage or ES levels. Anyway, I'm glad I could help. When you finalize your character, please post it here, I'd like to see what you do in the end. I might actually play an Arachnomancer myself now that I've tried to explore it from different angles. I'm still trying to work out a good way to take advantage of the poison touch ability; maybe Shou Disciple?
Anonymouse 02-21-04, 11:30 PM	Just a quick question, why do all of these builds use sorceror with the arachnomancer?
nihility 02-21-04, 11:49 PM	It's not that big of a thing, actually. Arachnomancer adds a bunch of spells to your spell list, including several that you might not know otherwise. This tends to favor Sorcerors a bit more than Wizards, but the difference isn't too great. The fact that a number of spells are of the kind that you'd what to cast a lot tips it more in the Sorceror's favor. Finally, I think Snow digs it a lot because it gives you even more options for summoning; I'm guessing here, but it seems to fit. The PrC is trivial to get into, so it's really easy to work it into builds to fill out a level with some nice abilities and a bump to the reflex save. However, the big thing is that Sorceror + Mage of the Arcane Order is super-strong, and Sorceror is generally considered better for Gish builds. So, Sorceror shows up in both the full-caster version and the Gish version, while Wizard only shows up in the full-caster version. That said, Wizard Gish are fine, too.
nihility 02-21-04, 11:51 PM	I should also point out that the class gets d6 hit dice and 4+INT skills from a nice list, which makes it attractive in and of itself when combined with the trivial entrance requirements.
Anonymouse 02-22-04, 12:01 AM	I think I understand, but the fact that the spider spells don't actually add to the sorceror's spells known made me think it favored the wizard more.
horndgod 02-22-04, 04:21 AM	Originally posted by nihility Here's an Arachnomancer gish, if you still like that angle: Half-Drow Fighter 1/ Sorceror 6/ Spellsword 1/ Arachnomancer 4/ Eldritch Knight 8 BAB +16, 17th caster level. One short of 9th level spells for a sorceror, sadly. The Drow 0 wizard version can get 9th level spells, though I fear the CON hit greatly. I suppose you could do a Half-drow wizard version, but Half-Drow seems to fit sorceror better to me. From this base, consider adding Thrall of Orcus or Dragonslayer if the flavor-free nature of the Eldritch Knight bothers you. For 9th level spells, drop the Arachnomancer down to one and add one of these classes, plus bump EK to 10. I don't know the prereqs for Arachnomancer, but if you can go Sorceror6/ Arachnomancer4 you can drop the level in Fighter for Dragonslayer and net an additional caster level. As for the Blackguard build, it would be a bit feat intensive, but you could try to get some Arcane Archer in there. No one ever said you have to be a surface elf to be an Arcane Archer. :devil:
nihility 02-22-04, 10:49 AM	Sorc. 6 does not qualify for Arachnomancer, since you need a base Fort save of +4 to get in. I know of no base arcane caster class that gets Fort as a good save. Additionally, Blackguard is the only PrC in the build that requires any feats at all to enter, so the build overall is pretty feat-light. Additionally, you would want to take Power Attack anyway, so it may as well only require two feats. Dragonslayer is still a possible choice, but I couldn't see how to work it in without making the build more feat-intensive than I was okay with. That said, if you find a way, let us know. As for the Arcane Archer option, I personally loathe that PrC. It's personal preference, but I honestly can't think of any reason I'd ever include more than a two-level dip for Imbue Arrow. Beyond letting you mess with the ranges of your spells, I don't see it giving you any other meaningful advantages. So, basically, if I'm going to spend three feats to go into a PrC, I think Blackguard provides a lot more in the way of advantages. Don't forget that the Blackguard's Command/Rebuke Undead ability, along with Power Attack which you needed to get in, qualifies you for Divine Might in addition to all the other benefits of the class. Additionally, I think Blackguard has a great deal more "flavor synergy" with the build. That's just me, though.
nihility 02-22-04, 10:53 AM	If the first Gish dropped Arachnomancer to 1 and added in two more levels of EK and a level of Dragonslayer, it would make BAB 16 and caster level 18. However, that feels less like an Arachnomancer build to me; I was really trying to work at least 4 levels into the Gish builds for flavor reasons.
Iblis 02-22-04, 03:28 PM	here is a build Spiderman Fighter 1/Sorceror 6/Arachnomancer 4/Spellsword 1/Black Guard 3/ Eldritch Knight 5 Hit Dice 1d10 + 6d4 + 4d6 + 1d8 + 3d10 + 5d6 Base Attack Bonus +16/+11/+6/+1; Saves +14/+08/+10; Caster Level: Sorcerer 14th (7th lvl spl), Black guard 3 (2nd lvl spl) Requires: feats: (BG)power attack, cleave, improved sunder. skills: (Arc) climb 3, knowledge(nature) 4, (Sps) knowledge(arcana) 6, (BG) hide 5, knowledge(religion) 2. spells: web, summon swarm, spider climb Alignement: evil Attribute Distribution 25 pt: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 28 pt: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 32 pt: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 Rolled: Cha, Str 13+, Con, Dex, Wis (12), Int. 01 Ftr 1: Spellcasting prodigy, Power attack 02 Ftr 1/Src 1: 03 Ftr 1/Src 2: improved sunder 04 Ftr 1/Src 3: 05 Ftr 1/Src 4: 06 Ftr 1/Src 5: cleave 07 Ftr 1/Src 6: 08 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 1: poison save bonus, spider magic, speak with spiders 09 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2: arcane strike, spiderform(S,M,L) 10 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1: ignore spell failure 10% 11 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 1: aura of evil, detect good, poison use. 12 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 2: feat, dark blessing, smite good 1/day 13 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 3: command undead, aura of despair 14 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 2/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1:divine might 15 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 3/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1: feat, poison touch 16 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 1: command spiders 17 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 2: 18 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 3: feat 19 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 4: 20 Ftr 1/Src 6/Arc 4/Sps 1/BG 3/EK 5: familiar : hairy spider of course some feats: leadership or improved familiar : take an imp as cohort(he has alternate form spider) . spell thematics, silent spell, eschew materials, surrogate spellcasting if you want to cast spells in spider form, improved initiative, quick draw... edit edited stats following advice of nihility
nihility 02-23-04, 12:01 AM	Very cool. The Blackguard version was my favorite of the bunch, and a friend of mine actually wants to use the build as a boss-type character in a future campaign. Good call on the Improved Initiative and Quickdraw feats. They don't seem like much on paper sometimes, but I've never regretted taking them. Many people around here consider Improved Initiative one of the best feats around period, since going first is a good thing no matter what your character does. Spell Thematics is positively delightful; I assume all your spells would have a spider theme? Silent Spell has one problem for casting: it doesn't provide somatic components. This is fine if your DM decides that a spider's limbs are as dextrous and capable of fine motion as a human hand. If so, no problem. However, your DM may decide otherwise. In this case, you might consider the feat Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species. It allows you to substitute vocalizations and motions of your alternate form for the normal components, but it requires WIS 13. You could potentially drop Spellcasting Prodigy, since you'll probably be focusing on spells that don't have DCs (buffs, battle control like web, etc...). It is certainly a strong feat, though, no doubt. The ability scores look good, with the exception that you might want a higher CON in the higher point buys. Personally, I'd divert some STR into CON, maybe 14 and 15, then raise the 15 CON to 16 at level 4. Additionally, you have lots of sources of extra damage to make up for a lower STR scores. Basically, my philosophy is "don't die," so I really like CON. Overall, very nice. Have fun!