Arcance Trickster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcance Trickster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fundin Strongarm
08-13-04, 10:49 PM I am currently a 5/1 Halfling Wizard/Rogue and am considering becoming an Arcane Trickster in 3e. (I've just read the FAQ and realize I'll need to be a 5/4 Wizard/Rogue before entering that Prestige Class due to needing 7 ranks of Decipher Script, an exclusive Rogue skill(which kinda sucks).) Is it worth it to give up my Wizard advancement for the next 3 levels to take Rogue? If I could convince my DM to allow me to enter at 5/3 (by having Decipher Script not be exclusive) would it be worth it then? Is the Arcane Trickster any good at all?

The rest of the party is 4/2 Cleric/Fighter, 6 Fighter and 6 Ranger (or 1/4 Monk/Wizard if we can't/don't raise the ranger from the dead). Any help appreciated.
Salla
08-13-04, 10:52 PM I'm guessing that you're playing 3.0, as in 3.5, there are no such things as Exclusive Skills.

I think the class is nifty, but overtly powerful, myself. I'd go for it.
Fundin Strongarm
08-16-04, 05:51 PM Thanks. I am playing 3.0.

I guess giving up spell advancement for 2 levels is worth it for the better sneak attack damage.
Fundin Strongarm
08-18-04, 06:52 PM Well, it turns out the DM isn't going to houserule the need for me to be a 4th level Rogue. I'd take 5/3/1 Wiz/Rog/Loremaster but it's too late for me to become one.

Ideally, if I had planned this out from the beginning I could've done 5/1/1/2 Wiz/Rog/Assassin/Loremaster to qualify for Arcane Trickster and only lost 2 levels of spell progression.

Ah, well. I think I'll just stick with the Wizard that can sneak around a bit.
Orkz
08-18-04, 08:53 PM Why do you need Rogue 4? Rogue 3 is all you need...

Just take the 3rd Rogue Level last as a level 8 Character (Wizard 5 + Rogue 3) you will have a maximum Skill Rank of 12. So you can raise Decipher Skill to almost double needed Rank...

Personaly i prefere the Sorcerer over the Wizard for Rogues.. makes you a lot more flexible if you pick the right spells and gives you more spells/day.

Sorcerer 6 / Rogue 3 will qualify as AT. But since you are Wizard right now, Wizard 5, Rogue 3 will do...
Fundin Strongarm
08-18-04, 09:52 PM Since I'm playing 3.0 and the Decipher Script is an exclusive skill to Rogues it is impossible to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script as a 3rd level Rogue.
TheMoor
08-18-04, 09:54 PM Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
Since I'm playing 3.0 and the Decipher Script is an exclusive skill to Rogues it is impossible to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script as a 3rd level Rogue.

You can get 8 ranks easily... max ranks are based on character level +3 for a class skill...so as long as you have enough skillpoints to reach 7 ranks in DS you're fine.
Orkz
08-18-04, 10:53 PM Why the hell should it be impossible?

You advance Rogue 1, Rogue2, Wizard 1-5

*then* you pick another Level: Rogue 3. You will be Character Level 3+5=8 and with Level +3 (or was it 4?) you will easily be able to learn Decipher Scrip on that rank...

(just repeating what i said before and what Moor said too), hope it's clear now... :confused:
fidelio
08-19-04, 02:10 AM Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
Well, it turns out the DM isn't going to houserule the need for me to be a 4th level Rogue. I'd take 5/3/1 Wiz/Rog/Loremaster but it's too late for me to become one.

Harper Mage has Decypher Script as a class skill. So you can go that route as well. Note that it has been errata'ed and that Education is no longer a requirement. And that you have Alertness from your familiar. The skill requirements are kind of steep, though, so you might have trouble making it, since you are already 5/1.

And yes, I would go for the Arcane Trickster, considering you have already taken a level of rogue. Otherwise, it is very difficult to make that level into something other than a mistake.

You could also check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95288) , which seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Cheers,

Fidelio
Fundin Strongarm
08-19-04, 04:33 PM @ Orkz and TheMoor I quote from pg 56 of the 3.0PH:
"If a skill is unavailable to a class (that is, if it's an exclusive skill that a multiclass character's other class doesn't have access to), then levels in that class don't increase the multiclass character's maximum ranks." It then goes on to say how a 7/4 Rog/Wiz would have a maximum rank of 10 in Use Magical Device since that skill is exclusive to Rogues.

Since Decipher Script is exclusive to Rogues (and Bards), you can't have 7 ranks in it if you're a 5/3 Wiz/Rog.

@fidelio I'll check out the Harper Mage when I get my hands on the book this weekend. Also, I don't think the one level I've taken as Rogue is wasted. It has given me Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device and Search as class skills as well as a short bow. I'll admit that if I were to start this character over again there's lots I'd change though.
fidelio
08-19-04, 08:31 PM Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
@fidelio I'll check out the Harper Mage when I get my hands on the book this weekend. Also, I don't think the one level I've taken as Rogue is wasted. It has given me Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device and Search as class skills as well as a short bow. I'll admit that if I were to start this character over again there's lots I'd change though.

Well... I guess that depends on how you play, but technically, class skills are determined on a level-by-level basis. Meaning: if you take a level of rogue, then a level of wizard, you don't keep the class skills of rogue when making your wizard level. When you take a wizard level, you have a wizard's class skills, a rogue's class skills when you take a level of rogue, etc.

Cheers,

Fidelio
Fundin Strongarm
08-19-04, 08:45 PM Well... I guess that depends on how you play, but technically, class skills are determined on a level-by-level basis. Meaning: if you take a level of rogue, then a level of wizard, you don't keep the class skills of rogue when making your wizard level. When you take a wizard level, you have a wizard's class skills, a rogue's class skills when you take a level of rogue, etc.

Huh? With multiclassing don't you retain all your class skills? I can't find anything that says you can only spend the the skills points gained in a class only on the skills available to that class.

pg56:"The [multiclassing] character retains and can access skills from all his or her classes."
amalcon
08-19-04, 10:03 PM Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
Huh? With multiclassing don't you retain all your class skills? I can't find anything that says you can only spend the the skills points gained in a class only on the skills available to that class.

pg56:"The [multiclassing] character retains and can access skills from all his or her classes."

Here is the way it works:
When you buy a skill with skill points from a given class, if those skills are not class skills for that class, you must pay 2 for 1:
SRD(skills):
If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get 1/2 rank per skill point.
However, your maximum number of ranks in a skill is determined by whether or not ANY of your classes has that skill:
SRD(classesII):
If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Fundin Strongarm
08-19-04, 10:26 PM Thanks. I think I'm going to have to do some adjusting on my character sheet.

Now, those low Hide and Move Silently skills really do suck unless I take some more levels in Rogue. hmmmm.....
rilem
08-19-04, 10:32 PM Why go arcane trickster at all? What's the appeal for you? You've already got the 1 rogue level for trapfinding -- You could continue as a Wizard/Loremaster/Harper Mage and get enough skill points for a few key rogue skills and not lose any more spellcasting. You lose sneak attack, but your spellcasting will more than make up for it.
Fundin Strongarm
08-19-04, 11:01 PM I was going to go Arcane Trickster mostly for the sneak attack ability as well as maintaining spellcasting ability. Since I'll have to put 3 more levels in Rogue I doubt I'll do it now -- my spellcasting will be so poor I'd be a super-Rogue rather than the "mage" that I envision for the character.

As for the AT, think Improved Inivisibility and sneak attack damage.
Femur Toothpick
08-19-04, 11:14 PM If you want to play a mage, don't play a AT. You'll have 4 or 5 levels of hard-time if you go with Trickster now. They are very fun to play, but are also very difficult to play during this point. You'll be lacking as a spellcaster, while also not being a very good rogue yet.
Orkz
08-31-04, 09:03 AM You keep your class skills does mean, you can still use them, not that you can put wizard skillpoints on rogue exclusive skills...

But anyway, you can go Rogue 1, wizard 1-5 and *then* rogue 2 and 3 to max out your decipher cript (will be level 7 when you pick rogue 3 and have a skill limit of 10!)
Enoch Van Garret
08-31-04, 09:24 AM Unless it's a character concept you're very attatched to and you are greatly in love with Ranged Ledgermain, Arcane Trickster is usually sub-optimal for what it sounds like you want to do. Reliance on sneak attack dice for additional damage is usually not a good idea when nearly half of all creatures are immune to it. You're a lot better off grabbing levels of, as mentioned, harper mage (or, in a more social-oriented campaign, virtuoso). Bard is also a very good compromise - with more skill points than any other non-rogue class and a very unique and surprisingly versatile spell list.
Prism
08-31-04, 10:38 AM You keep your class skills does mean, you can still use them, not that you can put wizard skillpoints on rogue exclusive skills...

But anyway, you can go Rogue 1, wizard 1-5 and *then* rogue 2 and 3 to max out your decipher cript (will be level 7 when you pick rogue 3 and have a skill limit of 10!)

Orkz, Fundin is playing 3e not 3.5e in which you cannot do what you keep saying. In 3e you needed to take at least 4 levels in a class which had decipher script as a class skill. There is no such thing as exclusive in 3.5
Orkz
08-31-04, 10:54 AM I think ranged legdermain can be realy usefull and you continue to gain rogue skills...

Just never think of it as a fighting build, the spells are several levels too weak and your BAB and HD are low too :(
Orkz
08-31-04, 10:59 AM I thought you are limited in Rank of your Skills by Character Level +3?

So a Rogue 2 / Wizard 5 is Character Level 7. You advance to Rogue 3 / Wizard 5, are Character level 8, so your max skill rank are 8+3=11 and you get Skillpoints for Rogue Skills when you advance a level Rogue.

There is no matter, if it's an exclusive skill or whatever. You advance a level Rouge and raise rogue skills. You character level +3 = 11. So you could for example max-out hide to Rank 11 and so on...

Or is there something very basic i did not see? :confused:
Piraatje
08-31-04, 11:52 AM Or is there something very basic i did not see? :confused:

Yeah, look at your book saying v3.5. Or if it doesnt say so, re-read the skill section ;)

Look at him saying he's playing v3.0
Orkz
08-31-04, 07:44 PM ... 3e Book, the only one having a 3.5 book around here is one of my co-players...

3e book: "Skills at higher level", page 59f.

1) determine the number of skillpoints you get (done that. whatever the class you take says + int)

...

3) if you have not maxed out a skill, you can spend extra skill points on it to increase it's rank further. First find out what your maximum rank is. If it's a class skill, your maximum rank is your new level plus 3.

and so on...

So, i start Rogue 1, then 2, can max-out my decypher script at level 2 to: 2+3=5.

I take 5 levels of Wizard. spend the points on wizard skills.

No i take Rogue 3. My Characterlevel is 3 (rogue) + 5 (wizard). Plus 3 that gives me a maximum of 11. If i have 6 Skillpoints (that i as a rogue will most certainly have) i can put my rogue skill decipher script from Rank 5 to Rank 11 if i want to...... :D

Where is the problem?
Fundin Strongarm
08-31-04, 08:53 PM Orkz, I already quoted the relevant section of the 3.0PH earlier.

@ Orkz and TheMoor I quote from pg 56 of the 3.0PH:
"If a skill is unavailable to a class (that is, if it's an exclusive skill that a multiclass character's other class doesn't have access to), then levels in that class don't increase the multiclass character's maximum ranks." It then goes on to say how a 7/4 Rog/Wiz would have a maximum rank of 10 in Use Magical Device since that skill is exclusive to Rogues.

Since Decipher Script is exclusive to Rogues (and Bards), you can't have 7 ranks in it if you're a 5/3 Wiz/Rog.

So, once again, I need to be a level 4 Rogue to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script. This information is also posted on the WotC site under Prestige Classes where it notes that in 3.0e you need to be level 4 Rogue but in 3.5e you only need to be 3rd to qualify for AT.

Harper Mage is not available to me -- we're only playing with the Tomb and Blood, Sword and Fist, Master's of the Wild, etc. and not any campaign specific books. I think if I'd thought of doing the Arcane Trickster route earlier I'd have picked spells and skills accordingly and not felt too badly about losing some spellcasting levels. I could've planned on being a Loremaster for a level but it's too late for that now.
Orkz
08-31-04, 11:06 PM lol. we never played it that way... :mymy:

so this is a major drawback of multiclassing ... (in 3.0 only?) that you can only have significantly lower skill ranks... for no available skills that is.
Skonky
09-01-04, 06:33 AM Why not use the rogue levels to get to 3(lvl) + 3 = 6 skill points in D.script

And use two of the wizard skill points for 0.5 a skill point each to purchase a whole skill point in D.script as a cross class skill.

6 + 1 = 7

I'm sure this was allowed under 3.0e

This means that you can still access AT from lvl 9 onwards...
Prism
09-01-04, 06:56 AM I'm sure this was allowed under 3.0e

This wasn't allowed in 3e. DS was an exclusive skill not a crossclass skill. The concept of exclusive skills has been removed in 3.5. Fundin has quoted this a couple of times now

Saying all that I actually like the 4th level of rogue in 3.5 and the practiced spellcaster feat means that the 4 levels can be regained - sort of
Fundin Strongarm
09-01-04, 08:01 AM lol. we never played it that way... :mymy:

so this is a major drawback of multiclassing ... (in 3.0 only?) that you can only have significantly lower skill ranks... for no available skills that is.

Yes, it's in 3.0 only. Apparently, 3.5 has removed any exclusive class skills. Even in 3.0 it only affects 5 skills (Animal Empathy, Decipher Script, Read Lips, Scry and Use Magical Device) and so doesn't come up that often. Some DMs house rule it so it's not a problem.
Orkz
09-01-04, 09:49 AM ok if it only was 5 skills, i think it did almost never apply...
Fundin Strongarm
09-14-04, 09:28 AM Well, I finally levelled and decided to go for the Arcane Trickster -- eventually. I'm now a 5/2 Wizard/Rogue. I plan on going Rogue, Wizard, Rogue then Arcane Trickster after that. The reason for the extra Wizard level is just for the +1 on saves and BAB when going from 5 to 6.

I really wanted to stick with being the wizard of the party but we are so lacking in skills (we've got a cleric/fighter, a fighter and a monk/wizard in the party) that I decided to be the skills guy instead. I mean, somebody's got to find and remove the traps! Also, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge are nice abilities.

I'll have to start picking spells and feats a little better for later!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fundin Strongarm 08-13-04, 10:49 PM	I am currently a 5/1 Halfling Wizard/Rogue and am considering becoming an Arcane Trickster in 3e. (I've just read the FAQ and realize I'll need to be a 5/4 Wizard/Rogue before entering that Prestige Class due to needing 7 ranks of Decipher Script, an exclusive Rogue skill(which kinda sucks).) Is it worth it to give up my Wizard advancement for the next 3 levels to take Rogue? If I could convince my DM to allow me to enter at 5/3 (by having Decipher Script not be exclusive) would it be worth it then? Is the Arcane Trickster any good at all? The rest of the party is 4/2 Cleric/Fighter, 6 Fighter and 6 Ranger (or 1/4 Monk/Wizard if we can't/don't raise the ranger from the dead). Any help appreciated.
Salla 08-13-04, 10:52 PM	I'm guessing that you're playing 3.0, as in 3.5, there are no such things as Exclusive Skills. I think the class is nifty, but overtly powerful, myself. I'd go for it.
Fundin Strongarm 08-16-04, 05:51 PM	Thanks. I am playing 3.0. I guess giving up spell advancement for 2 levels is worth it for the better sneak attack damage.
Fundin Strongarm 08-18-04, 06:52 PM	Well, it turns out the DM isn't going to houserule the need for me to be a 4th level Rogue. I'd take 5/3/1 Wiz/Rog/Loremaster but it's too late for me to become one. Ideally, if I had planned this out from the beginning I could've done 5/1/1/2 Wiz/Rog/Assassin/Loremaster to qualify for Arcane Trickster and only lost 2 levels of spell progression. Ah, well. I think I'll just stick with the Wizard that can sneak around a bit.
Orkz 08-18-04, 08:53 PM	Why do you need Rogue 4? Rogue 3 is all you need... Just take the 3rd Rogue Level last as a level 8 Character (Wizard 5 + Rogue 3) you will have a maximum Skill Rank of 12. So you can raise Decipher Skill to almost double needed Rank... Personaly i prefere the Sorcerer over the Wizard for Rogues.. makes you a lot more flexible if you pick the right spells and gives you more spells/day. Sorcerer 6 / Rogue 3 will qualify as AT. But since you are Wizard right now, Wizard 5, Rogue 3 will do...
Fundin Strongarm 08-18-04, 09:52 PM	Since I'm playing 3.0 and the Decipher Script is an exclusive skill to Rogues it is impossible to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script as a 3rd level Rogue.
TheMoor 08-18-04, 09:54 PM	Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm Since I'm playing 3.0 and the Decipher Script is an exclusive skill to Rogues it is impossible to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script as a 3rd level Rogue. You can get 8 ranks easily... max ranks are based on character level +3 for a class skill...so as long as you have enough skillpoints to reach 7 ranks in DS you're fine.
Orkz 08-18-04, 10:53 PM	Why the hell should it be impossible? You advance Rogue 1, Rogue2, Wizard 1-5 then you pick another Level: Rogue 3. You will be Character Level 3+5=8 and with Level +3 (or was it 4?) you will easily be able to learn Decipher Scrip on that rank... (just repeating what i said before and what Moor said too), hope it's clear now... :confused:
fidelio 08-19-04, 02:10 AM	Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm Well, it turns out the DM isn't going to houserule the need for me to be a 4th level Rogue. I'd take 5/3/1 Wiz/Rog/Loremaster but it's too late for me to become one. Harper Mage has Decypher Script as a class skill. So you can go that route as well. Note that it has been errata'ed and that Education is no longer a requirement. And that you have Alertness from your familiar. The skill requirements are kind of steep, though, so you might have trouble making it, since you are already 5/1. And yes, I would go for the Arcane Trickster, considering you have already taken a level of rogue. Otherwise, it is very difficult to make that level into something other than a mistake. You could also check out this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95288) , which seems to have taken on a life of its own. Cheers, Fidelio
Fundin Strongarm 08-19-04, 04:33 PM	@ Orkz and TheMoor I quote from pg 56 of the 3.0PH: "If a skill is unavailable to a class (that is, if it's an exclusive skill that a multiclass character's other class doesn't have access to), then levels in that class don't increase the multiclass character's maximum ranks." It then goes on to say how a 7/4 Rog/Wiz would have a maximum rank of 10 in Use Magical Device since that skill is exclusive to Rogues. Since Decipher Script is exclusive to Rogues (and Bards), you can't have 7 ranks in it if you're a 5/3 Wiz/Rog. @fidelio I'll check out the Harper Mage when I get my hands on the book this weekend. Also, I don't think the one level I've taken as Rogue is wasted. It has given me Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device and Search as class skills as well as a short bow. I'll admit that if I were to start this character over again there's lots I'd change though.
fidelio 08-19-04, 08:31 PM	Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm @fidelio I'll check out the Harper Mage when I get my hands on the book this weekend. Also, I don't think the one level I've taken as Rogue is wasted. It has given me Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device and Search as class skills as well as a short bow. I'll admit that if I were to start this character over again there's lots I'd change though. Well... I guess that depends on how you play, but technically, class skills are determined on a level-by-level basis. Meaning: if you take a level of rogue, then a level of wizard, you don't keep the class skills of rogue when making your wizard level. When you take a wizard level, you have a wizard's class skills, a rogue's class skills when you take a level of rogue, etc. Cheers, Fidelio
Fundin Strongarm 08-19-04, 08:45 PM	Well... I guess that depends on how you play, but technically, class skills are determined on a level-by-level basis. Meaning: if you take a level of rogue, then a level of wizard, you don't keep the class skills of rogue when making your wizard level. When you take a wizard level, you have a wizard's class skills, a rogue's class skills when you take a level of rogue, etc. Huh? With multiclassing don't you retain all your class skills? I can't find anything that says you can only spend the the skills points gained in a class only on the skills available to that class. pg56:"The [multiclassing] character retains and can access skills from all his or her classes."
amalcon 08-19-04, 10:03 PM	Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm Huh? With multiclassing don't you retain all your class skills? I can't find anything that says you can only spend the the skills points gained in a class only on the skills available to that class. pg56:"The [multiclassing] character retains and can access skills from all his or her classes." Here is the way it works: When you buy a skill with skill points from a given class, if those skills are not class skills for that class, you must pay 2 for 1: SRD(skills): If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get 1/2 rank per skill point. However, your maximum number of ranks in a skill is determined by whether or not ANY of your classes has that skill: SRD(classesII): If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Fundin Strongarm 08-19-04, 10:26 PM	Thanks. I think I'm going to have to do some adjusting on my character sheet. Now, those low Hide and Move Silently skills really do suck unless I take some more levels in Rogue. hmmmm.....
rilem 08-19-04, 10:32 PM	Why go arcane trickster at all? What's the appeal for you? You've already got the 1 rogue level for trapfinding -- You could continue as a Wizard/Loremaster/Harper Mage and get enough skill points for a few key rogue skills and not lose any more spellcasting. You lose sneak attack, but your spellcasting will more than make up for it.
Fundin Strongarm 08-19-04, 11:01 PM	I was going to go Arcane Trickster mostly for the sneak attack ability as well as maintaining spellcasting ability. Since I'll have to put 3 more levels in Rogue I doubt I'll do it now -- my spellcasting will be so poor I'd be a super-Rogue rather than the "mage" that I envision for the character. As for the AT, think Improved Inivisibility and sneak attack damage.
Femur Toothpick 08-19-04, 11:14 PM	If you want to play a mage, don't play a AT. You'll have 4 or 5 levels of hard-time if you go with Trickster now. They are very fun to play, but are also very difficult to play during this point. You'll be lacking as a spellcaster, while also not being a very good rogue yet.
Orkz 08-31-04, 09:03 AM	You keep your class skills does mean, you can still use them, not that you can put wizard skillpoints on rogue exclusive skills... But anyway, you can go Rogue 1, wizard 1-5 and then rogue 2 and 3 to max out your decipher cript (will be level 7 when you pick rogue 3 and have a skill limit of 10!)
Enoch Van Garret 08-31-04, 09:24 AM	Unless it's a character concept you're very attatched to and you are greatly in love with Ranged Ledgermain, Arcane Trickster is usually sub-optimal for what it sounds like you want to do. Reliance on sneak attack dice for additional damage is usually not a good idea when nearly half of all creatures are immune to it. You're a lot better off grabbing levels of, as mentioned, harper mage (or, in a more social-oriented campaign, virtuoso). Bard is also a very good compromise - with more skill points than any other non-rogue class and a very unique and surprisingly versatile spell list.
Prism 08-31-04, 10:38 AM	You keep your class skills does mean, you can still use them, not that you can put wizard skillpoints on rogue exclusive skills... But anyway, you can go Rogue 1, wizard 1-5 and then rogue 2 and 3 to max out your decipher cript (will be level 7 when you pick rogue 3 and have a skill limit of 10!) Orkz, Fundin is playing 3e not 3.5e in which you cannot do what you keep saying. In 3e you needed to take at least 4 levels in a class which had decipher script as a class skill. There is no such thing as exclusive in 3.5
Orkz 08-31-04, 10:54 AM	I think ranged legdermain can be realy usefull and you continue to gain rogue skills... Just never think of it as a fighting build, the spells are several levels too weak and your BAB and HD are low too :(
Orkz 08-31-04, 10:59 AM	I thought you are limited in Rank of your Skills by Character Level +3? So a Rogue 2 / Wizard 5 is Character Level 7. You advance to Rogue 3 / Wizard 5, are Character level 8, so your max skill rank are 8+3=11 and you get Skillpoints for Rogue Skills when you advance a level Rogue. There is no matter, if it's an exclusive skill or whatever. You advance a level Rouge and raise rogue skills. You character level +3 = 11. So you could for example max-out hide to Rank 11 and so on... Or is there something very basic i did not see? :confused:
Piraatje 08-31-04, 11:52 AM	Or is there something very basic i did not see? :confused: Yeah, look at your book saying v3.5. Or if it doesnt say so, re-read the skill section ;) Look at him saying he's playing v3.0
Orkz 08-31-04, 07:44 PM	... 3e Book, the only one having a 3.5 book around here is one of my co-players... 3e book: "Skills at higher level", page 59f. 1) determine the number of skillpoints you get (done that. whatever the class you take says + int) ... 3) if you have not maxed out a skill, you can spend extra skill points on it to increase it's rank further. First find out what your maximum rank is. If it's a class skill, your maximum rank is your new level plus 3. and so on... So, i start Rogue 1, then 2, can max-out my decypher script at level 2 to: 2+3=5. I take 5 levels of Wizard. spend the points on wizard skills. No i take Rogue 3. My Characterlevel is 3 (rogue) + 5 (wizard). Plus 3 that gives me a maximum of 11. If i have 6 Skillpoints (that i as a rogue will most certainly have) i can put my rogue skill decipher script from Rank 5 to Rank 11 if i want to...... :D Where is the problem?
Fundin Strongarm 08-31-04, 08:53 PM	Orkz, I already quoted the relevant section of the 3.0PH earlier. @ Orkz and TheMoor I quote from pg 56 of the 3.0PH: "If a skill is unavailable to a class (that is, if it's an exclusive skill that a multiclass character's other class doesn't have access to), then levels in that class don't increase the multiclass character's maximum ranks." It then goes on to say how a 7/4 Rog/Wiz would have a maximum rank of 10 in Use Magical Device since that skill is exclusive to Rogues. Since Decipher Script is exclusive to Rogues (and Bards), you can't have 7 ranks in it if you're a 5/3 Wiz/Rog. So, once again, I need to be a level 4 Rogue to get 7 ranks in Decipher Script. This information is also posted on the WotC site under Prestige Classes where it notes that in 3.0e you need to be level 4 Rogue but in 3.5e you only need to be 3rd to qualify for AT. Harper Mage is not available to me -- we're only playing with the Tomb and Blood, Sword and Fist, Master's of the Wild, etc. and not any campaign specific books. I think if I'd thought of doing the Arcane Trickster route earlier I'd have picked spells and skills accordingly and not felt too badly about losing some spellcasting levels. I could've planned on being a Loremaster for a level but it's too late for that now.
Orkz 08-31-04, 11:06 PM	lol. we never played it that way... :mymy: so this is a major drawback of multiclassing ... (in 3.0 only?) that you can only have significantly lower skill ranks... for no available skills that is.
Skonky 09-01-04, 06:33 AM	Why not use the rogue levels to get to 3(lvl) + 3 = 6 skill points in D.script And use two of the wizard skill points for 0.5 a skill point each to purchase a whole skill point in D.script as a cross class skill. 6 + 1 = 7 I'm sure this was allowed under 3.0e This means that you can still access AT from lvl 9 onwards...
Prism 09-01-04, 06:56 AM	I'm sure this was allowed under 3.0e This wasn't allowed in 3e. DS was an exclusive skill not a crossclass skill. The concept of exclusive skills has been removed in 3.5. Fundin has quoted this a couple of times now Saying all that I actually like the 4th level of rogue in 3.5 and the practiced spellcaster feat means that the 4 levels can be regained - sort of
Fundin Strongarm 09-01-04, 08:01 AM	lol. we never played it that way... :mymy: so this is a major drawback of multiclassing ... (in 3.0 only?) that you can only have significantly lower skill ranks... for no available skills that is. Yes, it's in 3.0 only. Apparently, 3.5 has removed any exclusive class skills. Even in 3.0 it only affects 5 skills (Animal Empathy, Decipher Script, Read Lips, Scry and Use Magical Device) and so doesn't come up that often. Some DMs house rule it so it's not a problem.
Orkz 09-01-04, 09:49 AM	ok if it only was 5 skills, i think it did almost never apply...
Fundin Strongarm 09-14-04, 09:28 AM	Well, I finally levelled and decided to go for the Arcane Trickster -- eventually. I'm now a 5/2 Wizard/Rogue. I plan on going Rogue, Wizard, Rogue then Arcane Trickster after that. The reason for the extra Wizard level is just for the +1 on saves and BAB when going from 5 to 6. I really wanted to stick with being the wizard of the party but we are so lacking in skills (we've got a cleric/fighter, a fighter and a monk/wizard in the party) that I decided to be the skills guy instead. I mean, somebody's got to find and remove the traps! Also, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge are nice abilities. I'll have to start picking spells and feats a little better for later!