Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lael 04-20-05, 12:23 AM	Apologies if this topic has been around before but the search isn't working. I'm thinking of doing an Arcane Archer for my next character possibly coming in at either 9th of 10th level overall, but I'm undecided on what way to get there. I was thinking possiblly fighter4/wizard(or sorcerror)4. That way I can get the feats precise shot, point blank shot and weapon focus for arcane archer pretty easily, and then have a decent level of spells. But thats not sitting too well with me for some reason. So what other builds have people done to get an arcane archer? Oh and its for the core D&D setting, so any Complete X books mainly, but anything else is still considerable :)
happymoocow 04-20-05, 12:57 AM	Hexblades get to arcane archer the fastest. Otherwise you're kind of stuck with something like this. sorcerer6/sacredexorcist4/arcanearcher2/eldritchknight8. If you want 9th level spells. Might have to be a wizard for 9th level spells... I don't remember.
Blade2718 04-20-05, 01:22 AM	As an Arcane Archer, your best bet is to minimize levels in the class, as it doesn't advance casting. What is recommended is that you go something like: Ftr2/Wiz6/AA2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 9.
solbergb 04-20-05, 02:20 AM	It depends on what you want. In low magic/cash campaigns the class abilities are kind of useful...I've played in campaigns where GMW just wasn't available, period, to the party. The Arcane Archer is really mechanically similar to the Dragon Disciple. While both have a little magical flavor, they're warrior classes, not spellcasting classes. So you build an AA the same way you build any other archer. You just get the option to have cha or intelligence power your complete adventurer swift action spells, instead of the wisdom/ranger route. The AA has spot/listen/hide/survival/move silent as class skills so it can continue the core ranger skills, especially if you went wiz1 and thus have decent intelligence. As an example, here's my living greyhawk build to level 16 (retirement). It takes 20% xp penalty from level 7 onward, which really isn't a disadvantage in a campaign where you play with random tables, not with the same group of people that you fall further behind every adventure. Str 18 Dex 17 Con 10 int 12 Wis 8 Cha 8 Wood Elf 1 Ranger Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter Precise Shot 3 Ranger Rapid Shot, Quickdraw 4 Fighter Weapon Focus longbow 5 Fighter 6 Fighter Weapon Spec, Woodland Archer (RW) 7 Wizard (spells = arrow mind, guided shot, truestrike+pearls power) (familiar = bat, to pinpoint invisible targets for me by flying over them, plus boost listen skill) 8 AA +1 arrows 9 AA improved crit Imbue Arrow (pretty much worthless) 10 AA +2 arrows 11 AA seeker arrow (some synergy with woodland archer) 12 AA +3 arrows, improved precise shot 13 AA phase arrow 14 AA +4 arrows 15 AA ranged sunder or ranged disarm (CW), hail of arrows 16 AA +5 arrows All statbumps into dex until level 12, then one into int at 16 since he'll be able to afford bigger scrolls by then. He's designed to work ok with no magical support and without even a magic bow, if his main weapon is disarmed or sundered. In lower levels, quickdrawn splash weapons have made the difference against high AC foes that even higher level archers in the party missed reliably. All of his class based damage bumps multiply on crits, and he can do meaningful damage over DR5 at level 3, DR10 at level 6 even without magical help. But he does of course carry all the special material types etc. All of his class abilities that boost damage multiply on a crit, making improved crit a little better for him than on most characters. There are more powerful archers builds, but he's campaign legal, and he's designed to get a solid volley in, reliably, no matter who is at his table. He'll have boots of haste by level 7-8 (got access, just need the cash). His high strength is a nod to the campaign, where nonstandard slotted items are impossible, bows only get to +4 strength and a belt of strength is something you can't afford until level 9-10 and don't want to waste cash on anyway on an archer. It also helps some with the rare melee combat he does (and in level 1-2 when he fought with one-handed throwing weapons and a shield) and for grapple, trip etc which messes up archers. His achilles heel is his low constitution, although his fort save will be good and so will reflex save. AC will be ok, but he needs to use cover when facing ranged combatants. He has skill points to be maxed in spot, listen and solid at tracking, hiding and sneaking if necessary. He has basic competence in the outdoorsy movement skills (swim, climb, jump). He's also designed to be fun to play at all levels. Actually his current level (5) is about the only "dead" level, where he had nothing to look forward to except another BAB and a bit more hp.
Nomad16 04-20-05, 02:32 AM	yeah i gotta agree with solbergb. AA's Shouldnt always have 9th level spells, infact i am kinda partial to the AA's that let their bow do the talking and they wizardness keep them alive (via Mirrior image, etc, etc). Maybe a few levels of EK for the advanced spell casting, im thinking a 3level spells would be cool, 4th if it is easily doable. From the 3.0 standing i dont like ranger, at all. Somthing like ftr6/wiz1/AA9/ek4...i dunno never played with the PrC much, dont knwo whats fastest or whats best...just know when i thought of AA thats what came to mind
Lael 04-20-05, 02:34 AM	Cool thanks for that all, and espically solbergb, thats pretty much what I'm after. Do a build with one and a ranger2/fighter4 archer is better than a fighter6 archer IMHO. Still not sure about wizard of sorerceor though.
Nomad16 04-21-05, 07:42 AM	Normally i agree, but i am staunch 3.0 player (in which case ranger is useless for an archer), i take from your reply that you play 3.5 :) If i were to play 3.5 (i own the books) i would take 2 levels of ranger, without a doubt backed up by 2-4 ftr, dont know if its optimal or even possible to quilify with only 2 levels of ftr. ftr6 is far from optimal (got ftr3 which is a bad level, and ftr5 which is a **** poor level), but it was what i threw out quickly....
Pinky's brain 04-21-05, 08:40 AM	How about using a cleric archer with the spell domain to get into AA? Imbue arrow is not limited to arcane spells.
LefferDP 04-21-05, 09:11 AM	Argh, evil thoughts coming, must, repress... Oh well. How about: Elf Wizard 7/ Mindbender (CA) 1/ Ur-Priest (CD) 2/ Mystic Theuge 8/ Arcane Archer 2 So now we Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell inane numbers of buffs including Divine Might and an AMF. Then we Imbue Arrow whatever we like and shoot it out of the AMF at whoever we don't like. However, you're really feat starved, as you just barely have the 8 feats (thakns to Wizard 5's bonus feat) to enter Arcane Archer, Ur-Priest and get DM: Persistant Spell. Practiced Spell caster would be nice here if you could swing it. Pity there's only 8th level spells, since it's a level short, but meh. Probably can be improved too with a nice Prestige class instead of a few wizard levels, but nothing comes to mind. Another thought: Bard 7/Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sublime Chord (CA) 1/ Mystic Theuge 7/ Arcane Archer 2 Not optimized, especially because you can't get DM: Persistant Spell, but it feels like it has potential, if I could just figure out how to take Arcane Archer and Ur-Priest levels in the first 10 levels. Maybe with a flaw? That'd let you take DM: PS too. So with some flaw: Bard 6/ MB 1/ UP 2/AA 2/ SC 1/ MT 8
solbergb 04-21-05, 02:09 PM	OK, core entry points, advantages and disadvantages First...get your BAB+6 at level 6, do the arcane level later. You want to get those BAB+6 required feats on schedule, not wait till level 9. After 6 you get no feat help from your classes. Fighter6 - The most feats, and archers like feats. Downside - no skills. So people may expect you to have good spot or stealth skills..and you won't. Eventually the AA levels will catch you up on spot, but you'll be a one-trick pony. Ranger2/Fighter4 - you still get weapon spec (which is nice on an archer, and only costs one feat since you need weapon focus to qualify for the PRC) but you also get a decent array of skills. If you take one ranger level first and the other after fighter 2 or 3, you'll have fairly high primary skills until you can "catch up" with the AA levels. You will buy some skills crossclass with the fighter levels to keep up. Big downside...there is no avoiding a 20% xp penalty, no matter what flavor of elf you take, since the Fighter4 will clash with either the arcane or the ranger level (or both if you do a high elf sorcerer or something) That's it if you want weapon spec. Giving up 2 points of damage per shot gets you: Ranger2/Barb2/Fighter2 - rage lets those 14 str point buy weenies use a real--man bow, fast movement and barb skills are fairly synergistic with an archer, and uncanny dodge is nice for a light armor/high dex character. Plus you get a little extra beef on the hitpoints. The big downside is that the rage works poorly with the arcane side, as you can't cast your swift action spells while raging. This is much less of a downside if your DM doesn't allow non-core materials, as few things in the PHB are very useful in combat for an archer (truestrike is rarely worth losing a whole round of attacks, most of the buffs can be cast out of combat before you rage, etc). This mix comes out about the same as the weapon spec builds in overall feats....except of course you don't get weapon spec. If you are low str though, rage IS weapon spec kinda. If you want to rage every combat though, you'll need to spend a feat on extra rage. Ranger6 - less feats than fighter6 or fighter4/ranger2(you get 2 class based feats instead of 4, but you don't need weapon spec) but you get by far the best skill selection and you ALSO get a few more spell slots for those nifty CV spells such as Guided Shot and Arrow Mind. Plus a speed-bump animal companion (possibly best used as a mount) Bard8 - an unusual choice but with some great spell synergy, since you provide bardsongs and haste for the party before you open up on your own. The big downside? You have to be elf or half-elf which means you will either not qualify for the class until level 10 or you won't have rapid shot until level 9. This choice tends to be more popular among people who don't play the character from level 1-8 or who are ok with being a bard for 8 levels and then suddenly changing focus completely to being a primary archer. Like ranger you have all the good "archer" skills - alertness and stealth. There is probably some kind of ranger/bard/fighter mix that isn't bad. There's a hexblade entry which is terrific from a BAB and early entry perspective, plus has no xp penalty issues...the only problem is that the hexblade skill and spell selections don't fit archery very well. I don't think mixing rogue levels in buys you anything. You don't want any more of a BAB hit than the arcane class already costs you.
solbergb 04-21-05, 02:14 PM	Argh, evil thoughts coming, must, repress... Oh well. How about: Elf Wizard 7/ Mindbender (CA) 1/ Ur-Priest (CD) 2/ Mystic Theuge 8/ Arcane Archer 2 So now we Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell inane numbers of buffs including Divine Might and an AMF. I think you won't be persisting insane number of buffs. Divine might alone costs you 7 turn attempts, which is all of them with an 18 charisma...fat chance when you need intelligence and wisdom for your casting stats and str+dex to do any damage with your bow. I see no room for extra turning in your mix. So unless you have a nightstick factory or something, this is just a build that will kinda suck at everything. And it won't be any fun to play sub level 20, at least not as an archer.
catharz 04-21-05, 04:03 PM	It depends on what you want. In low magic/cash campaigns the class abilities are kind of useful...I've played in campaigns where GMW just wasn't available, period, to the party. [b]It would have been available if you han't diluted your caster levels!!! :nonono: Seriously, a 3rd-level wizard spell is not especially difficult for an 18th-level wizard to cast. :rolleyes:
UMiskatonic 04-21-05, 05:23 PM	You don't seem to understand what he's saying. Not available usually means 'the DM said no', and not 'I'm too much of a moron to read the Player's Handbook'. Imagine a campaign world where you are a 18th level wizard, but you have to fill all your spell slots with magic missiles because there is no one to teach you new spells, and the ones you get from levelling represent the training that isn't available to wizards in this campaign world. Arcane archer is looking pretty good, I'd think. And by the way, archer/bard works pretty well. It's especially nice with Craft arms/armor, as bards can make a hefty pile of upgrades, bane arrows, etc.
LefferDP 04-21-05, 05:42 PM	Yeah, you can't really get into the heavy duty archery until 14th, but I find it entertaining. And who abuses Divine Metamagic without nightsticks, really? But you can make an admirable archer build starting at 12th if you want to rush in Divine Metamagic to pick up Divine Might. All the same, you're right, probably not a whole lot of fun before level 10.
carnivore 04-21-05, 06:02 PM	heres an idea: 1/2 elf Ranger 2/ Fighter 1/ Bard 4/ Arcane archer 5/ Eldritch Knight 8 BAB +19 cast 4th lvl Bard spells caster level 11th(15th with Practiced caster) +3 Arrows all the time Bardic Music Bardic Knowledge Great Skills :D
solbergb 04-21-05, 06:04 PM	You don't seem to understand what he's saying. Not available usually means 'the DM said no', and not 'I'm too much of a moron to read the Player's Handbook'. It can also mean "nobody at the table is a wizard or a cleric." Which happens a LOT in the campaign where my arcane archer lives. Even when someone is a wizard or cleric, the wizard may not have it in their spellbok and cleric might have better uses for his 4th level spell slots than giving the archer +1 or 2 to hit/damage (like, say, doomtide, freedom of movement, death ward, air walk, etc etc etc) There are advantages to being self-sufficient. Of course I ALSO play a monk in that campaign who much prefers to get "spikes" on his nunchucks over sucking down 250gp enlarge person potions to get decent flurry damage...but that's a problem I chose when I chose the character build. Of course that monk usually travels with a cleric who can spare a 3rd level slot... And in the meantime...that campaign is played at levels 1-16. My character is an archer from level 1, and he is a good archer from level 1-16. Being a good archer from level 12-16 but sucking at it from 1-11 to get some caster ability would be silly. I have caster characters for when I want to play a caster. (one of whom, at level 12, will do "archery" with a dozen chained greater magic weaponed cold iron greatswords, violent thrust and guided shot...but she isn't an archer) Living Greyhawk also has severe restrictions on craft arms and armor. I'm not counting on being able to buy any kind of magical ammo in lots less than 50, and my weapon/arrow enhancements will be essentially random. The only thing I can count on are my own class abilities.
catharz 04-21-05, 06:21 PM	It can also mean "nobody at the table is a wizard or a cleric." Which happens a LOT in the campaign where my arcane archer lives. If your arcane archer is a wizard (or sorcerer) like he should be, that isn't a problem. :rolleyes: If the lack of scrolls to find is an issue, spell research is an option. If spell research isn't an option, and you can't craft a Tome of Arcane Knowledge or whatever (from CD), then Arcane Archer might be worth it, especially in 3.0e.
carnivore 04-21-05, 06:30 PM	heres another idea: Elf Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 5/ Eldritch Knight 7 BAB +18 cast 5th lvl Bard Spells caster level 14th(19th with practiced caster) lots of skills Bardic Music Bardic Lore even Snowflake Wardance :D
solbergb 04-22-05, 12:15 PM	If your arcane archer is a wizard (or sorcerer) like he should be, that isn't a problem. :rolleyes: Except that there is no way to make a primary archer as a wiz or sorc that doesn't blow chunks as an archer in the lower levels. Which are, roughly, 1/3 of the playtime of the character. An arcane archer, just like a dragon disciple, should be a warrior type at the beginning, assuming you don't want his role to radically change halfway through his career. Also given that my sorcereress has been in wild magic zones twice, a no-magic zone once and a heavy chaos zone once, all before reaching level 6, there are distinct advantages to actually being able to just kill things without casting spells. What I find really amusing about this forum is the assumption that campaigns start at level 20. Most do not. If you want your archer to be good from level 1-6, he needs a lot of feats in levels 1-3, and he needs BAB6 by level 6. Or he sucks. Or he isn't an archer at all. In levels 7-12, the BAB you lose for being more than one level of wiz/sorc hurts you more than the spells help. Plus you make the incorrect (at least in the campaign that my AA plays in) assumption that buffs that last less than an hour will actually be in play when the battle begins. Unlike many campaigns, LG tends to be reactive...you're going about your business and the adventure happens, not "there is an evil tower you get to assault." This means that even 10 minute buffs are often wasted or not running, especially if you aren't a true primary caster but some kind of gish, where they last even less time. Until level 10+ (or even 12+) even if you have a cleric or wiz at the table, they won't have a slot free to buff your bow. They use those slots for their primary function..casting spells in battle. If YOU are the wizard, what the hell are you doing screwing around with a bow? Put that thing away and cast something useful. That's why your class has half BAB and no spot skill and no combat feats. If the lack of scrolls to find is an issue, spell research is an option. If spell research isn't an option, and you can't craft a Tome of Arcane Knowledge or whatever (from CD), then Arcane Archer might be worth it, especially in 3.0e. Dude...if the GM isn't allowing GMW, what makes you think you can research it? If your party has a druid and sorcerer instead of wizard and cleric, you won't have the spell either, unless the sorc is playing telekenesis+chain spell games and finds the spell worthwhile for his own use.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 04-22-05, 02:25 PM	Personally, I have found that the Imbue Arrow ability is by far the most versatile of the arcane archer's abilities. The arcane archer that I have played just took caster levels after the second level of the class. Being able to fire Antimagic Fields, Repulsions, and extending cone effects is reeeaally sweet (since the bow's range replaces the spell's range). However, if you don't particularly want to be slinging spells with your character (and who can blame you? At 10th level you'd probably just be mostly caster), then I think solbergb's first build is pretty nice. Also, the bard builds might be interesting; Crushing Despair and Fear would be excellent spells to imbue, and the Inspire Courage bonus would work nicely with the Enhance Arrow effect. -mike the amazing muskrat p.s. Detect Magic- how do people think that would work with the Imbue Arrow ability?
catharz 04-22-05, 02:45 PM	Except that there is no way to make a primary archer as a wiz or sorc that doesn't blow chunks as an archer in the lower levels. Which are, roughly, 1/3 of the playtime of the character. That isn't me experience. Care to back it up? What I find really amusing about this forum is the assumption that campaigns start at level 20. Most do not. In my experience, the assumption is that campaigns end at level 20, hence all of the 20-level builds. If you want your archer to be good from level 1-6, he needs a lot of feats in levels 1-3, and he needs BAB6 by level 6. Or he sucks. Or he isn't an archer at all. That is only true if you semantically define "archer" as 'a character with "a lot of feats in levels 1-3, and he needs BAB6 by level 6."' Which is circular logic. In levels 7-12, the BAB you lose for being more than one level of wiz/sorc hurts you more than the spells help. Plus you make the incorrect (at least in the campaign that my AA plays in) assumption that buffs that last less than an hour will actually be in play when the battle begins. Unlike many campaigns, LG tends to be reactive...you're going about your business and the adventure happens, not "there is an evil tower you get to assault." This means that even 10 minute buffs are often wasted or not running, especially if you aren't a true primary caster but some kind of gish, where they last even less time. In my experience, BAB you lose for being more than one level of wiz/sorc hurts you less than the spells help. Until level 10+ (or even 12+) even if you have a cleric or wiz at the table, they won't have a slot free to buff your bow. They use those slots for their primary function..casting spells in battle. If you're an archer, you're focused on being an archer. Maybe the reason you haven't succeeded at playing a spellcasting archer is your spellcasting mentality. Spells can be use for whatever you want them to be used for. Most wizard archers are casting Greater magic weapon rather the Fireball with their 3rd-level slots. If you're wasting your time casting fireball before GMW (in combat rather than spell storing arrows), no wonder you aren't doing very well. If YOU are the wizard, what the hell are you doing screwing around with a bow? Put that thing away and cast something useful. That's why your class has half BAB and no spot skill and no combat feats. If you play only for power and only at high-levels, then I agree with you. However, if your interest is in playing more unique characters at all levels, the extra versatility gained by an archery focus can be huge. Dude...if the GM isn't allowing GMW, what makes you think you can research it? If your party has a druid and sorcerer instead of wizard and cleric, you won't have the spell either, unless the sorc is playing telekenesis+chain spell games and finds the spell worthwhile for his own use. If the DM isn't allowing GMW, then as I said, more than 2 levels of AA might be useful sometimes. What does that have to do with TK???
AramilWindwalker 04-22-05, 02:45 PM	I've always enjoyed the basic fireball on your arrows kind of arcane archer. I think it went: Fighter4/sorceror6/Arcane archer2/elditch knight8 It wasn't too bad to play.
solbergb 04-22-05, 03:40 PM	Pretty much if you show up to my table and don't have point blank shot at level 1, the ability to do 2 attacks a round at level 3 and 3 attacks at level 6 and 4 by level 12 at projectile weapon ranges...you aren't an archer. You might be a ray specialist. You might be artillery. You might be a thrown weapon guy. But you aren't doing what an archer does...steady full attack nonmagic damage that can penetrate all the metalline DR's and usually a few of the others...every round, and across the entire battlemap. A warmage or wizard/sorc with similar spells does a decent simulation of an archer at short range (with the orbs) or at medium range when you can target the enemy (magic missile), doing steady damage in a very tight range instead of doing more damage to low AC targets and less to high AC targets. On the average, magic missile keeps up pretty well with low level archer average damage. In practice, sometimes you want the zap wizard, sometimes you want the archer. At level 6, the archer pulls away from what you can do with the single target spells. Of course then the wizard who wants to do direct damage has other options, but with a different set of constraints than the archer (not the least of which is...even sorcerers can run out of spell slots, usually before an archer runs out of ammo) I'm not saying you can't take a wizard and make an adequate archer out of him. Just like you can take a fighter and make an adequate monk, with the right feat choices. But...either choice is suboptimal in level 1-6 at doing the actual role of monk or archer, compared to a real one, because the monk or archer frontloads the feats and class abilities that define them as monk or archer, where the arcanist or fighter pretending to be one has to nail down their own basic class abilities first and usually also raise some cash. Out of combat, the archer will typically have better raw alertness and sometimes stealth/tracking skills, the arcanist will have a host of utility spells that can cover some of the same bases and perhaps a familiar with good ranks in noticing things. But really..there are just two approaches to arcane archer. One is to treat him as an archer, with arcane flavor. Imbue arrow and the other 1/day class abilities aren't the killer app, the enchanted arrows, the skill mix and the low level arcane spells that enhance archery are. The other is to focus on the imbue arrow feat, stop the class at level 2 (which is a "dip" not actually exploring what the class can do) and to be a wizard or bard who blew two+ casting levels and some feats on being an archer. You can do some unique things, and you are certainly better at buffing the party. But a straight warrior based archer (even with a not very exciting PRC like Arcane Archer) will be a better archer and a straight full class arcanist will be a better arcanist, most of the time. As a side note...the TK/sorcerer thing was...there is a use for GMW on an sorcerer that doesn't involve buffing party members or sacrificing a precious spell known to make the party archer happy. One of the best ways of doing SR=no direct damage in the 10-15 game is to take your level in greatswords, chain GMW and use TK. Even with the low attack roll (sorc BAB+cha), the plus level/3 to hit from GMW really helps, and the plus level/3 damage is nice too. A real archer will have a better attack roll, but he'll get a max of 5 attacks in level 10-15, 6 at 16-20. The TK junkie gets 10-15 attacks, and with nothing more exciting than mundane greatswords does 9-11 damage a hit (depending on GMW level). (the archer probably does 20 per hit...so he'll still probably outdamage the TK guy, but the TK guy makes a decent substitute if your party can't do it otherwise)
solbergb 04-22-05, 03:49 PM	If you play only for power and only at high-levels, then I agree with you. However, if your interest is in playing more unique characters at all levels, the extra versatility gained by an archery focus can be huge. Sure. If you want to spend two feats (minimum, usually 3 for rapid shot) and use a bow instead of magic missile that's cool. I find the opportunity cost too high, so it isn't so much a matter of "not succeeding" at arcane-based archery at all levels as not seeing the point. My sorcerer and my warmage both do that role pretty ok without spending more than one spell known (sorcerer) or...nothing (warmage) on it. My low level arcanists don't have any trouble contributing without resorting to physical weapons beyond a few alchemical substances. This does assume scrolls are pretty common...if not then you need something to do when out of spell slots. My illusionist in a campaign that lacked scroll access did the party tank role in levels 1-5 because my teammates all dumped constitution and followed it up with bad die rolls...where I was a gnome with a lot of constitution and some miss-chance spells like mirror image. In the baby levels swinging a cast-iron frying pan two-handed as a club for d6+1 actually kills the odd goblin or two...and providing a flank for the two party rogues did more... I think arcanists are fantastic at helping the party archer do better, with keen arrow saving the archer a feat, flame arrow a bow enhancment and GMW many bow enhancmeents and haste (or better boots of haste crafted) giving an extra attack. But it works better to buff the guy who has the BAB and feats than to try to do it all yourself, usually. I also remain a bit bemused at seeing Arcane archer as only a gateway to a 1/day ability (imbue arrow). No matter how good a 1/day ability is, losing two caster levels for it seems kinda suboptimal.
catharz 04-22-05, 04:50 PM	I also remain a bit bemused at seeing Arcane archer as only a gateway to a 1/day ability (imbue arrow). No matter how good a 1/day ability is, losing two caster levels for it seems kinda suboptimal. Imbue arrow is an ∞/day ability. Making it the only ability given by the Arcane Archer PrC that matters. Just to make things more clear, I'll compare two builds: 1: Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Arcane archer 9 (16th level) -10 possible archery feats. -BAB +15. -Wizard spells as 1st level. -Arrows strike as +5 weapon for free. -Ignore cover and concealment on one arrow as a standard action 1/day. -Ignore cover, concealment, and armor on one arrow as a standard action 1/day. -Fire an arrow at every target within range at full BAB, to a maximum of 9 targets, 1/day. -DC 20 arrow of slaying can be created, one at a time max (not listed creation time). 2: Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 7/Arcane archer 2 (16th level). -9 possible archery feats (with Practiced spellcaster, if using UA wizard then 10). -BAB +14. -Wizard spells at 11th level (caster level 15). -Arrows strike as +3 weapon for free (with +1 CL item +4). So there you have it. The first one looks pretty good, intil you realize that 1) #2's bow already ignores cover and concealment all the time, 2) #2 can craft arrows which mimic most of #1's special abilities, 3) #2 can craft magic bows and arrows, period, and 4) #2 can cast spells which mimic the rest of #1's abilities, plus many others. More than 1/day.
solbergb 04-22-05, 06:24 PM	Imbue arrow is an ∞/day ability. Making it the only ability given by the Arcane Archer PrC that matters. Just to make things more clear, I'll compare two builds: 1: Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Arcane archer 9 (16th level) -10 possible archery feats. -BAB +15. -Wizard spells as 1st level. -Arrows strike as +5 weapon for free. -Ignore cover and concealment on one arrow as a standard action 1/day. -Ignore cover, concealment, and armor on one arrow as a standard action 1/day. -Fire an arrow at every target within range at full BAB, to a maximum of 9 targets, 1/day. -DC 20 arrow of slaying can be created, one at a time max (not listed creation time). 2: Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 7/Arcane archer 2 (16th level). -9 possible archery feats (with Practiced spellcaster, if using UA wizard then 10). -BAB +14. -Wizard spells at 11th level (caster level 15). -Arrows strike as +3 weapon for free (with +1 CL item +4). So there you have it. The first one looks pretty good, intil you realize that 1) #2's bow already ignores cover and concealment all the time, 2) #2 can craft arrows which mimic most of #1's special abilities, 3) #2 can craft magic bows and arrows, period, and 4) #2 can cast spells which mimic the rest of #1's abilities, plus many others. More than 1/day. Ok. Firstly...a 16th level archer is going to have improved precise shot, so everybody ignores cover all the time if they're an archer at L12+. Why is #2's bow any better than #1's bow? You're not crafting anything unless you're taking away from archery feats. So I'm not getting the second half of point #1. #2 and #3 puts him two archery feats behind instead of one feat #2 has MAD, since he needs all the attributes archers need, plus a lot more intelligence. So his str, dex or con is going to suffer. Plus since he didn't go fighter 4, every shot does 2 points less damage. #2 is spending cash on things like caster level boost items (30k) and int boost items (36k) instead of boosting his archery. Granted the spellcasting helps with a lot of this. 11th level casters are somewhat useful for utility stuff, even at level 16. Both builds are competent archers at level 1-3 but #1 has the skill set that support archery, in particular "spot"...#2 is skill starved his entire life, even with the high intelligence, because his class skills are rarely supportive of archery (the two levels of AA are it and don't come until level 15!) and he needed concentration, spellcraft etc to support his wizard habit. At level 6...the fighter/wizard is 2 BAB behind and has none of the spells yet that help make up for it. He's two points of damage per shot behind too. He is also probably either weaker or less dextrous, and he also has less hitpoints. He's two full feats behind, 3 if he took practiced spellcaster, which means he's not getting multishot/imp rapid shot or woodland archer or whatever. Level 6-8 are going to be tough for build #2. At level 9 he can start casting GMW but it only lasts 5 hours (unless he continues to ignore the higher level archery feats and gets practiced spellcaster..if he does the #1 build is 3 feats ahead) he gets to choose between an archer feat or practiced spellcaster. He doesn't get his third attack until level 8, he doesn't have the BAB to get improved rapid shot at level 12 (that has to come at 15). The lack of feats and BAB and MAD consistently put him several attack points behind the warrior-archer and at some levels (6,7,12) a full attack behind. He's a decent archer. But he's not as good at being an archer as the warrior oriented archer. He's also a utility spellcaster. The warrior oriented archer is instead a decent scout and tracker and alertness character. Both can find other things to do than shoot things in the party. If there is no wizard in the party...the heavy arcane emphasis of the #2 build is a much better match. If there is a wizard...he'll be so far behind the main caster in ability that his extra value is redundant...the same buffs he puts on himself could be placed by the wizard on the warrior for better effect, and without impacting the wizard's ability to fight, since the top two tiers of spells are untouched. Which brings us to the imbue ability. You can imbue low level (for the party's level...remember APL16 means the real caster is doing horrid wilting, poly any object, mind blank, maze etc) spells and increase their range. *shrug*. There are a few really nice uses, antimagic shell in particular, but it's not all that...and sub level 16 antimagic shell is off the table....indeed ALL imbue tricks are off the table pre-level 16.
solbergb 04-22-05, 07:10 PM	Here's another way to look at it. 28 point builds, all statbumps into Dex. assume they buy the same equipment from level 1-16, with any extra wizard stuff countered by extra armor stuff on the warrior. The first +1 enhancement bonus is ignored, since both will have it from very early levels (atk after first 400gp is earned, dmg after first 3000ish gp is earned) Build #1 Wood Elf: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8 Build #2 High Elf: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 First number is build #1, second build #2 L1 atk +3 dmg d8+4, atk +3 dmg d8+3 point blank shot Build #1 has tracking/skills, +1 damage, Build #2 has precise shot. L2 atk+4 dmg d8+4, atk +4 dmg d8+3 Build #1 has rapid shot, #2 has either rapid shot or precise shot L3 atk+6 dmg d8+4 atk+5 dmg d8+3, weapon focus bow Feats are identical Build 1 has L1 spells but is a point behind on to hit and damage. L4 atk+7 dmg d8+4 atk+6 dmg d8+3 Build #1 has an extra feat. I like quickdraw here, so you can volley on the first round, even if you start without your bow drawn. #2 still has just level 1 spells L5 atk+8 dmg d8+4 atk+6 dmg d8+3 Build #2 has level 2 spells, but drops another attack point. He's hitting at the level of the L3 version of build 1. L6 atk+9/3 dmg d8+6 atk +7 dmg d8+3 Build #2 is now 2 points of attack behind, 3 points of damage behind and is lacking Woodland Archer (which means later arrows in a volley are either +4 if any missed, or autohit vs concealment if the first arrow hit vs the concealment). He does have L2 spells though. BAB is too low to take a good archery feat here, so to make the comparison direct, give #1 quickdraw (or whatever L4 feat you like best) so there is no difference in capability. L7 Atk +9/3 dmg d8+6 atk +8 dmg d8+3 Build 1 gets his L1 spells Build 2 catches up a point. At this level the GMW is irrelevant because both will have a +1 bow. L8 Atk +10/5 dmg d8+6 Atk 9/4 dmg d8+3 Build 2 can now have woodland archer. L9 Atk +11/6 dmg d8+6 Atk 11/6 dmg d8+4+3.5fire We'll assume improved crit and keen arrow spell are a wash, and that the build #2 can time his buffs properly. #2 takes practiced spellcaster here. The buffs including flame arrow catch him up in to-hit and damage, for 90 minutes/day. L10 Atk +12/7 dmg d8+7 Atk 12/7 dmg d8+4+3.5fire AA does slightly more damage if crits are considered, since the fire doesn't multiply. L11 Atk 13/8 dmg d8+7 Atk 13/8 dmg d8+4+3.5 fire L12 Atk 15/10/5 dmg d8+8 Atk 15/10 dmg d8+5+3.5 fire build 1 takes improved precise shot. Build #2....craft arms/armor? Build #2 loses an attack. Both arrows go up to +3. L13 Atk 16/11/6 dmg d8+8 Atk 16/11/6 dmg d8+5+3.5 fire Build #2 catches up in the attack category. L14 Atk 18/13/8 dmg d8+9 Atk 17/12/7 dmg d8+5+3.5 fire Build #2 falls behind a little in attack and damage. L15 Atk 19/14/9 dmg d8+9 Atk 18/13/8 dmg d8+5+3.5 fire Build #2 can finally get improved precise shot. Build #1 might pick up multishot in prep for improved rapid shot at 17 or 18. L16 Atk 21/16/11 dmg d8+10 Atk 20/15/10 dmg d8+6+3.5 fire Ok...at this point the build #1 has maxed spot, listen, tracking, hide, move silent and has a familiar to help with that, plus L1 spells. Plus basic physical skills like swimming, etc. Build #2 is also behind by 16 hitpoints. #2 has concentration, spellcraft, a bunch of kn skills plus basic skills like swimming, etc, and L6 spells. When keen arrow and flame arrow are running, the #2 build keeps up pretty well with the #1 build, except at levels 6,7,12,17-18 (at 17 the #1 build gets another point of BAB, at 18 improved rapid shot). Build #2 can after level 12 try to make a better bow than #1, and possibly make up the difference, even considering the lower attack roll. However he's spending extra cash on stuff to make him a better wizard (headband of intellect, bigger con item to make up for lower hitpoints/level, spellbook etc). Both are perfectly good builds. But one works all the time, even if his bow gets sundered, even in antimagic field or whatever. The other is dependent on casting the spells before the fight and not having them removed during the fight. However, the "mage-archer" has the potential when fully buffed on minute-buffs of outstripping the warrior-archer...assuming the latter also has no spell support. Both can get greater heroism, but the mage-archer can do it himself. Both can get sonic weapon, but the mage-archer can do it himself... (actually the warrior-archer can do the L2 and L3 buffs if he can get scrolls, in a pinch) I like this discussion because it does illustrate that both models work, but "self-sufficient" is contextual. The mage-archer is superior when he can prepare and when his spellbook can be brought to bear on noncombat problems. The "warrior/ranger"-archer (with 12 of 16 levels giving alertness, tracking and stealth skills as class skills) is superior when unprepared, when magic isn't reliable or removed or in situations where his superior skill ranks are needed by the party. He's also slightly superior in situations where DR must be penetrated and neither character has the right weapon, or when fire damage doesn't help. Both will lose some xp/time (one due to crafting, the other to multiclassing)
catharz 04-22-05, 10:06 PM	It is possible to talk a lot without saying much, so I'll throw down some numbers: Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch knight 1/Arcane archer 2 Feats (8)~ 1(Level: Weapon focus (composite longbow), Fighter: Point blank shot), 2(Fighter: Precise shot), 3(Level: Rapid shot, Wizard:), 6(Level: Practiced spellcaster (wizard)), 8(EK: Whatever, Multishot seems like a waste at this point), 9(Level: Craft arms and armor). HP: 42.5+Con = 15.5+10+4.5+3.5+9+Con. BAB: +8/+3. Arrows count as +2. Max spell level: 3rd. Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Arcane archer 3 Feats (8)~ 1(Level: Point Blank Shot), 2(Fighter: Precise Shot), 3(Level: Quickdraw, Ranger: Rapid Shot), 4(Fighter: Weapon focus (longbow)), 6(Fighter: Weapon Specialization (longbow, I'm guessing)), 7(Wizard: Scribe scroll), 9(Level: Improved critical (longbow, I presume)). HP: 50.5 = 12.5+22+2.5+13.5. BAB: +9/+4. Arrows count as +2. Max spell level: 1st. And I'm not sure what you're talking abouut with this 'bow sundered' stuff. You mean that the spellcaster can just craft another bow, and they both use nonmagical arrows in an AMF?
carnivore 12-02-05, 09:09 AM	:bump: