Arcane Archer Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PsionicRanger
09-12-05, 05:18 PM I never really see anyone putting an arcane archer as an optimized archer prestige class. How do they measure up compared to other archer prestige classes?
rilem
09-12-05, 05:37 PM They're not great, is one reason.

Beyond two levels, they just don't give very much in comparison to other classes. Enchant Arrow, their core ability, is duplicated by a party Wizard/Cleric with Greater Magic Weapon. All the other stuff is 1/day or somesuch and not much use.

Imbue Arrow CAN be useful, and so you see Ranged Fighter/Mages, Bards and so on take a two-level dip.

(Note: In very low-magic campaigns, all the math changes: If you don't have the ability to cast GMW at a high caster level, AA becomes more a lot more useful — though not as useful as in 3.0, when you needed +5 arrows to penetrate some DR).
solbergb
09-12-05, 06:18 PM If you are primarily a caster, you can't afford more than 2 levels of AA. Like dragon disciple on the melee side, continuing is a sign that you aren't a caster, you are an archer with a tiny bit of magic.

From the archery side of things, AA gives you full bab, a decent amount of skills and a good skill list. But if your party primary caster is willing to cast GMW on you 24x7, all it gives you other than that are some 1/day abilities that are entertaining, but not powerful.

What an arcane archer is good at, is being self-sufficient. This can make it a very good NPC who is supposed to operate solo, a good enemy type who you want to have lots of plusses without granting the enemy a high level primary caster or a decent character to take in a campaign where your party changes radically from adventure to adventure, such as LG.

Taken on its own merits, an AA "keeps up" with attack and damage and featwise mods of a pure fighter that goes for greater weapon spec, but has a far superior skill list and generally better saves (good fort and reflex, plus multiclassing gives another bump). A fighter buffed by his party casters...will outperform the AA because he's doing his to-hit and damage with feats instead of an enhancement bonus.

It is certainly viable, especially with the CV spells (with guided shot topping the list, nearly replacing two feats - far shot and improved precise shot, but arrow mind is good too) coming online at level 7 to help offset the BAB loss. That familiar can be handy too...a bat can roam around the battlefield pinpointing invisible targets for you to gun down (miss chance smish chance, I'll shoot until some arrows stick).

I don't find any of the 3.5 archery classes very appealing. Pure ranger and pure fighter do as well as any of them. OOTBI assumes you are doing archery within 30', and firing single shots instead of vollies. Not optimal. Most of the others are actually ranger variants that don't do archery as well as core ranger. The one standout I can think of is Cragtop Archer, which has some cool very long range abilities, but like AA makes you pay in feats and doesn't give you any feats (the Complete and Races books provided a lot of useful archery feats, this is one reason the pure fighter archer remains pretty good past L12 if you can overlook the utter lack of useful skills)

I think of AA as "ranger with arcane flavor instead of druid flavor". I find it works quite well in that role. I get a familiar instead of a weak animal companion - the brains it has (even at int 6) and half my hitpoints+imp evasion tend to make it more durable and useful than the ranger companion. Instead of a handful of druid spells, I get a handful of arcane spells. Loss of the third bonus feat is balanced by the 1/day abilities to some extent, loss of favored enemy by built in GMW. If you like a core ranger archer, the arcane archer could also be appealing.

But neither is a hulking hurler or supermount or whatever. They're just ordinary, viable choices.
Baudolino
09-12-05, 06:23 PM It really depends. The big problem is that it halts your spellcasting - as was mentioned, almost all of its effects can be imitated with spells, probably to greater effect. In a campaign I played in someone was hell-bent on playing one, and I helped him tweak it to get the most out of it, but I still think his character would have been stronger if he went with classes that progressed spellcasting or classes more focused on the bow.

That said, some things to keep in mind if, for flavor or fun, you decide you want to take the class full-on:

-Imbue arrow is an excellent ability, and as was mentioned sometimes worth a two-level dip into the class.
-If you insist on taking the class, optimizing your bow will be almost as important as optimizing yourself. Minimize straight enhancement bonuses that will be given to you by the Enhance Arrow ability. Instead, you would do well to add a plethora of elemental damage.
-Don't focus too heavily on your spellcasting. If you expect to take 10 levels in this class (again, not necessarily optimized except in very low-magic campaigns), you will be limited to at best 5th-level spells, and that requires making a few sacrifices. This is an archer class, not a spellcasting class.
-Look at interesting options for entries into the class. Bards receive moderate combat ability, good skill points, and more than just spellcasting, so the loss of it isn't taken so harshly. And it still leaves a number of options for Imbue Arrow. Hexblade doesn't have nearly as decent of a spell list, but allows you to keep a full BAB, making the class much more about archery.
-Think outside the box! Don't simply stick damaging AoE spells like Fireballs on the end of your arrows. You have the opportunity to create some excellent battlefield control, letting you spit out everything from Grease to Antimagic Fields, and plant them right in the middle of your enemies.

So, power-wise, it falls behind a lot of other gish and archery-based prestige classes, but that doesn't mean you can't play it if you like those mechanics - it's still possible to run a decent Arcane Archer, even if it's not as good as some other options out there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PsionicRanger 09-12-05, 05:18 PM	I never really see anyone putting an arcane archer as an optimized archer prestige class. How do they measure up compared to other archer prestige classes?
rilem 09-12-05, 05:37 PM	They're not great, is one reason. Beyond two levels, they just don't give very much in comparison to other classes. Enchant Arrow, their core ability, is duplicated by a party Wizard/Cleric with Greater Magic Weapon. All the other stuff is 1/day or somesuch and not much use. Imbue Arrow CAN be useful, and so you see Ranged Fighter/Mages, Bards and so on take a two-level dip. (Note: In very low-magic campaigns, all the math changes: If you don't have the ability to cast GMW at a high caster level, AA becomes more a lot more useful — though not as useful as in 3.0, when you needed +5 arrows to penetrate some DR).
solbergb 09-12-05, 06:18 PM	If you are primarily a caster, you can't afford more than 2 levels of AA. Like dragon disciple on the melee side, continuing is a sign that you aren't a caster, you are an archer with a tiny bit of magic. From the archery side of things, AA gives you full bab, a decent amount of skills and a good skill list. But if your party primary caster is willing to cast GMW on you 24x7, all it gives you other than that are some 1/day abilities that are entertaining, but not powerful. What an arcane archer is good at, is being self-sufficient. This can make it a very good NPC who is supposed to operate solo, a good enemy type who you want to have lots of plusses without granting the enemy a high level primary caster or a decent character to take in a campaign where your party changes radically from adventure to adventure, such as LG. Taken on its own merits, an AA "keeps up" with attack and damage and featwise mods of a pure fighter that goes for greater weapon spec, but has a far superior skill list and generally better saves (good fort and reflex, plus multiclassing gives another bump). A fighter buffed by his party casters...will outperform the AA because he's doing his to-hit and damage with feats instead of an enhancement bonus. It is certainly viable, especially with the CV spells (with guided shot topping the list, nearly replacing two feats - far shot and improved precise shot, but arrow mind is good too) coming online at level 7 to help offset the BAB loss. That familiar can be handy too...a bat can roam around the battlefield pinpointing invisible targets for you to gun down (miss chance smish chance, I'll shoot until some arrows stick). I don't find any of the 3.5 archery classes very appealing. Pure ranger and pure fighter do as well as any of them. OOTBI assumes you are doing archery within 30', and firing single shots instead of vollies. Not optimal. Most of the others are actually ranger variants that don't do archery as well as core ranger. The one standout I can think of is Cragtop Archer, which has some cool very long range abilities, but like AA makes you pay in feats and doesn't give you any feats (the Complete and Races books provided a lot of useful archery feats, this is one reason the pure fighter archer remains pretty good past L12 if you can overlook the utter lack of useful skills) I think of AA as "ranger with arcane flavor instead of druid flavor". I find it works quite well in that role. I get a familiar instead of a weak animal companion - the brains it has (even at int 6) and half my hitpoints+imp evasion tend to make it more durable and useful than the ranger companion. Instead of a handful of druid spells, I get a handful of arcane spells. Loss of the third bonus feat is balanced by the 1/day abilities to some extent, loss of favored enemy by built in GMW. If you like a core ranger archer, the arcane archer could also be appealing. But neither is a hulking hurler or supermount or whatever. They're just ordinary, viable choices.
Baudolino 09-12-05, 06:23 PM	It really depends. The big problem is that it halts your spellcasting - as was mentioned, almost all of its effects can be imitated with spells, probably to greater effect. In a campaign I played in someone was hell-bent on playing one, and I helped him tweak it to get the most out of it, but I still think his character would have been stronger if he went with classes that progressed spellcasting or classes more focused on the bow. That said, some things to keep in mind if, for flavor or fun, you decide you want to take the class full-on: -Imbue arrow is an excellent ability, and as was mentioned sometimes worth a two-level dip into the class. -If you insist on taking the class, optimizing your bow will be almost as important as optimizing yourself. Minimize straight enhancement bonuses that will be given to you by the Enhance Arrow ability. Instead, you would do well to add a plethora of elemental damage. -Don't focus too heavily on your spellcasting. If you expect to take 10 levels in this class (again, not necessarily optimized except in very low-magic campaigns), you will be limited to at best 5th-level spells, and that requires making a few sacrifices. This is an archer class, not a spellcasting class. -Look at interesting options for entries into the class. Bards receive moderate combat ability, good skill points, and more than just spellcasting, so the loss of it isn't taken so harshly. And it still leaves a number of options for Imbue Arrow. Hexblade doesn't have nearly as decent of a spell list, but allows you to keep a full BAB, making the class much more about archery. -Think outside the box! Don't simply stick damaging AoE spells like Fireballs on the end of your arrows. You have the opportunity to create some excellent battlefield control, letting you spit out everything from Grease to Antimagic Fields, and plant them right in the middle of your enemies. So, power-wise, it falls behind a lot of other gish and archery-based prestige classes, but that doesn't mean you can't play it if you like those mechanics - it's still possible to run a decent Arcane Archer, even if it's not as good as some other options out there.