Arcane Archer's spellcasting class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer's spellcasting class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonDeath
07-10-06, 09:37 PM I was trying to put together an Arcane Archer build (using an Elf rather than a Half-Elf for the extra Dex), and I was wondering what spellcasting class I could use. I was hoping to lose only one point of BAB, since it's intended to be a primarily combat-oriented build. So far, the options I can think of are Wizard 2 (Elf's favored class, but no armored casting), Bard 4 (for Cat's Grace 1/day, and Bardic Music seldom hurts), or Duskblade (whose spell list I don't recall off the top of my head...) I'm not really sure which is the best choice for low-level archer buffs.

On a side note, I'm thinking of Ranger as the non-spellcasting class to use. Would Fighter or a Fighter/Ranger mix be better? And if I go Duskblade, should I multiclass at all before Arcane Archer?
chitzk0i
07-10-06, 09:51 PM Duskblades get cat's grace and, of course, true strike. Five levels would get you armored mage (medium) and quick cast 1/day as well as 2nd-level spells. Not many area spells, though.
AramilWindwalker
07-10-06, 09:53 PM I seocnd duskblade, sure your spell choices are limited but you get armored casting and no loss of bab or caster levels(pre AA anyhow) and duskblades were an elven created class RP-wise.
PhoenixInferno
07-10-06, 10:01 PM Warmage.
FlimFlam
07-11-06, 01:07 AM I seocnd duskblade, sure your spell choices are limited but you get armored casting and no loss of bab or caster levels(pre AA anyhow) and duskblades were an elven created class RP-wise.

But there are no good Duskblade spells you can put into arrows, being that most Duskblade spells that do damage are touch spells.
CrimsonDeath
07-11-06, 03:18 AM I admit that is a bit of a bummer, FlimFlam, but the main reason I want to play an Arcane Archer is so I can get +5 arrows for 5cp apiece. Access to Cat's Grace, True Strike, and armored casting makes Duskblade a good enough archer-buffing class that I'm willing to settle for an absence of AOE spells. Fireballs aren't really this guy's style, anyway (as evidenced by the fact that I was willing to settle for Wiz 2).

Thanks, everyone, for your input.
solbergb
07-11-06, 05:03 PM Some brief pros/cons of the different classes.

For the BAB6/arcane1 approach:

Ranger6 gets the most skills, 2 feats and ranger spells if you've got the wisdom for it.

Ranger2/Fighter2/Barbarian2 gives 3 feats, rage to power a stronger bow or melee or grapple, fast movement, a decent number of useful skills and the most hitpoints of the three main options

Ranger2/Fighter4 gives 4 feats including weapon spec, at the cost of a serious hit to your skill points. You'll take 20% xp penalty too once the wiz level comes in (wood elf) or fighter 4 (other elf) unless you're a half-elf.

There is no reason to go fighter6 except to avoid 20% xp penalty on a high elf or grey elf.

Wizard - more skill points, familiar, scribe scroll to get a few more uses of baby utility spells. Standout spells are mostly from CV, with guided shot topping the list, Arrow Mind close behind. Truestrike from PHB a distant third. Things like benign transposition or feather fall can be worthwhile too. Be a diviner.

Sorcerer - like wizard but with charisma instead of intelligence. Usually a mistake on a skill-hungry build (most archers like lots of skill points for things like spot, listen, hide, often Survival (tracking) etc). Also gets multiclass penalties unless you're a half-elf or ranger6/sorcerer1 wood elf. Plus you only get two of the spells you might want. I'd likely go with guided shot and arrow mind.

Warmage - all the skill disadavantages of sorcerer with even poorer spell spell choices - of the entire list, only truestrike, that range enhancing spell and fist of stone are likely to be very useful - and none of those hold a candle to guided shot.

Nothing in this approach (bab6/arcane1/arcane archer10) has much worthwhile to throw with imbued arrow.

==================
Other options

Hexblade - full BAB is very attractive but the spells are essentially useless for an archer, either to just use or to throw with imbued arrow. Usually some kind of fighter levels need to be mixed in to get the feats needed to be a good archer.

Bard 8 - the big downside is feats - it takes all of your level 1-6 feats just to qualify, and you don't even get rapid shot until level 9. Best to play this as a straight bard until level 9. Once there, inspire courage, inspire competence and haste are pretty good force multipliers but you'll find yourself enhancing other folks rather than you just blazing away a lot. Better spells to imbue on arrows than other options. Lose two BAB not just one. This is more commonly taken on an arcane heavy version that doens't advance past 2 levels of arcane archer.

Wiz or Sor12 - similar feat problems to bard, and again, this is more commonly done just to toss antimagic fields with arrows.

can't speak for Duskblade, don't know that class.
MerlintheTuna
07-12-06, 05:39 AM Ranger 6/Wizard 1 is a solid opening; 6th level is good for pretty much every class (+1 to all saves, +1 BAB regardless of class) and the Ranger scores Manyshot and a 1st level spell out of the deal as well. With the PHB 2, you can take Distracting Attack and not worry about your animal companion's advancement (or lack thereof). True Strike has no somatic component, so it doesn't suffer Arcane Spell Failure, which makes it a spectacular spell for a Ranger/Wiz/AA; slap that on a Manyshot and you've got 2-4 arrows hitting when you absolutely need them to.

Duskblade is certainly a solid class for this as well, especially since you can get into the PrC a level earlier, but Ranger 6 scores you a lot of skill points, a pair of feats you'd probably take anyway, and some basic divine spellcasting. After all, nobody complains when there's another party member that can carry around the ubiquitous wand of Cure Light Wounds.

Short version: I'd say Ranger 6/Wiz 1 for your opening unless you're not likely to hit very high levels, in which case Duskblade 6 is better simply because you're in sooner.
pvrhye
07-12-06, 07:10 PM I've always like wiz 10/ arcane archer 10.

Be sure to tack on practiced spellcaster. Though I wonder with some though if a person can weave some sublime chord cheese in there somewhere. Anyhow, the pure wizard build loses 5 BAB, which is somewhat mitigated by the extra attack frmo rapid shot, and gets higher level spells.
Vorlir
07-12-06, 09:26 PM I figure you should either go the whole way with arcane archer and just get enough arcane to qualify or concentrate on your casting and only do a 2 level dip for imbue arrow. Going 10/10 doesnt seem very efficient, and not legal anyway, you need +6 bab for arcane archer.
MerlintheTuna
07-13-06, 04:54 AM Really, I don't see Imbue Arrow as a very good ability anyway, even if you focus on spellcasting instead of arrow-shooting. This is why:

Lack of casting progression: The fact that you don't get spellcasting for those two levels of AA means that you're already a spell level behind a full caster, AND you almost assuredly had to eat a level or more of a non-spellcasting class to satisfy the BAB requirement.
Size of battles: A composite longbow has a range increment of 110 ft. Since it can shoot up to 10 range increments, this makes for a total range of up to 1100 ft. But how often does your DM incorporate enemies who are farther than 50-100 ft away? A long range spell can already shoot over 400 ft, and a medium range spell over 100 ft. With ranges like these, it's hard to imagine many situations where more range would really be necessary.
Arrows don't help: Because of the range issues already mentioned, having a spell that you COULD cast otherwise be put in an arrow provides no advantage. Why put Fireball in an arrow and shoot it at someone (requiring an attack roll) instead of just casting Fireball normally and hitting automatically?

Ultimately, I see Imbue Arrow as a way to increase the level of dickery available to you with low level spells. Example -- Grease has range Close (25ft +2.5/level) and is a solid spell for a long time. You certainly won't be putting it in a LOT of arrows, but hey, every now and then you need something 80 feet away to be slippery. One could also make a case for Ghost Sound (since making noise is effectively an area effect), which could make for some interesting applications of Imbue Arrow. I think that 1st level spells are likely to be enough for IA, and failing that, 2nd level. (For things like Shatter, which is always fun). Anything past that seems foolhardy.

The Arcane Archer is an archer first and an arcanist second. He's got full BAB and no spellcasting progression; Imbue Arrow is an appetizer for the class, not the main course. Don't build your meal around it.
Necromas
07-13-06, 06:38 AM I reccomend NOT taking barbarian for rage, simply because if you rage, it changes your strength score, so you would need two composite bows, one for normal use and one to use during rage.

As far as I know, besides unique bows, there is no enhancement you can give to a bow that makes it change the composite level.
Some Like It Hot
07-13-06, 09:10 AM The great thing about imbue arrow is this: you can imbue the arrow with spells that normally have to centered on you. Stapling a caster to the wall with an antimagic field is loads of fun. As far as battle field control, it's not perfect and it's not a great deal better than straight caster, but it lends itself to some pretty interesting strategies that are otherwise unavailable.

I like ranged gishes, especially since you can blast away with rays and orbs if the spells fall out of favor. I generally go for more caster levels, though.

-SLIH
solbergb
07-13-06, 11:22 AM I reccomend NOT taking barbarian for rage, simply because if you rage, it changes your strength score, so you would need two composite bows, one for normal use and one to use during rage.

As far as I know, besides unique bows, there is no enhancement you can give to a bow that makes it change the composite level.

No. You just take one bow and rage all the time. The barbarian trick is pretty much tied to taking extra rage. You might have a low strength "Backup" bow (which isn't uncommon anyway, as fatigue or a touch of strength damage can really hose an archer).

Ditch the backup bow once you can afford a belt of strength.

I've seen the barbarian route done, and it works pretty well. You can have some problems when you have more than 3 difficult fights a day (in the EL=party level encounters, just use the cheap backup bow or suck up the -2, you'll hit anyway). Typically the attribute points you save on strength go directly into constitution and/or spellcasting attributes that make up for the -2 or make the character more durable in straight melee.
LogicNinja
07-13-06, 11:25 AM The great thing about imbue arrow is this: you can imbue the arrow with spells that normally have to centered on you. Stapling a caster to the wall with an antimagic field is loads of fun. As far as battle field control, it's not perfect and it's not a great deal better than straight caster, but it lends itself to some pretty interesting strategies that are otherwise unavailable.

Wouldn't the spell be centered on the arrow, which could be tossed away?
Abulafia
07-13-06, 11:29 AM Wiz 1/BAB 6 to eliminate the multiple attribute dependency problem. Put skill points into Craft (Bowmaking) to make your own masterwork mighty composite longbows.

As far as the imbue arrow problem goes, every single-caster-level solution is going to be crappy, but Wiz 1 is the least crappy. At least you can learn all of the 1st-level area-effect spells (Hypnotism, Sleep, and Color Spray being somewhat useful)

[off topic]Where can one find the Duskblade's complete spell list? The list in PH2 seemed limited to new spells.[/off topic]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonDeath 07-10-06, 09:37 PM	I was trying to put together an Arcane Archer build (using an Elf rather than a Half-Elf for the extra Dex), and I was wondering what spellcasting class I could use. I was hoping to lose only one point of BAB, since it's intended to be a primarily combat-oriented build. So far, the options I can think of are Wizard 2 (Elf's favored class, but no armored casting), Bard 4 (for Cat's Grace 1/day, and Bardic Music seldom hurts), or Duskblade (whose spell list I don't recall off the top of my head...) I'm not really sure which is the best choice for low-level archer buffs. On a side note, I'm thinking of Ranger as the non-spellcasting class to use. Would Fighter or a Fighter/Ranger mix be better? And if I go Duskblade, should I multiclass at all before Arcane Archer?
chitzk0i 07-10-06, 09:51 PM	Duskblades get cat's grace and, of course, true strike. Five levels would get you armored mage (medium) and quick cast 1/day as well as 2nd-level spells. Not many area spells, though.
AramilWindwalker 07-10-06, 09:53 PM	I seocnd duskblade, sure your spell choices are limited but you get armored casting and no loss of bab or caster levels(pre AA anyhow) and duskblades were an elven created class RP-wise.
PhoenixInferno 07-10-06, 10:01 PM	Warmage.
FlimFlam 07-11-06, 01:07 AM	I seocnd duskblade, sure your spell choices are limited but you get armored casting and no loss of bab or caster levels(pre AA anyhow) and duskblades were an elven created class RP-wise. But there are no good Duskblade spells you can put into arrows, being that most Duskblade spells that do damage are touch spells.
CrimsonDeath 07-11-06, 03:18 AM	I admit that is a bit of a bummer, FlimFlam, but the main reason I want to play an Arcane Archer is so I can get +5 arrows for 5cp apiece. Access to Cat's Grace, True Strike, and armored casting makes Duskblade a good enough archer-buffing class that I'm willing to settle for an absence of AOE spells. Fireballs aren't really this guy's style, anyway (as evidenced by the fact that I was willing to settle for Wiz 2). Thanks, everyone, for your input.
solbergb 07-11-06, 05:03 PM	Some brief pros/cons of the different classes. For the BAB6/arcane1 approach: Ranger6 gets the most skills, 2 feats and ranger spells if you've got the wisdom for it. Ranger2/Fighter2/Barbarian2 gives 3 feats, rage to power a stronger bow or melee or grapple, fast movement, a decent number of useful skills and the most hitpoints of the three main options Ranger2/Fighter4 gives 4 feats including weapon spec, at the cost of a serious hit to your skill points. You'll take 20% xp penalty too once the wiz level comes in (wood elf) or fighter 4 (other elf) unless you're a half-elf. There is no reason to go fighter6 except to avoid 20% xp penalty on a high elf or grey elf. Wizard - more skill points, familiar, scribe scroll to get a few more uses of baby utility spells. Standout spells are mostly from CV, with guided shot topping the list, Arrow Mind close behind. Truestrike from PHB a distant third. Things like benign transposition or feather fall can be worthwhile too. Be a diviner. Sorcerer - like wizard but with charisma instead of intelligence. Usually a mistake on a skill-hungry build (most archers like lots of skill points for things like spot, listen, hide, often Survival (tracking) etc). Also gets multiclass penalties unless you're a half-elf or ranger6/sorcerer1 wood elf. Plus you only get two of the spells you might want. I'd likely go with guided shot and arrow mind. Warmage - all the skill disadavantages of sorcerer with even poorer spell spell choices - of the entire list, only truestrike, that range enhancing spell and fist of stone are likely to be very useful - and none of those hold a candle to guided shot. Nothing in this approach (bab6/arcane1/arcane archer10) has much worthwhile to throw with imbued arrow. ================== Other options Hexblade - full BAB is very attractive but the spells are essentially useless for an archer, either to just use or to throw with imbued arrow. Usually some kind of fighter levels need to be mixed in to get the feats needed to be a good archer. Bard 8 - the big downside is feats - it takes all of your level 1-6 feats just to qualify, and you don't even get rapid shot until level 9. Best to play this as a straight bard until level 9. Once there, inspire courage, inspire competence and haste are pretty good force multipliers but you'll find yourself enhancing other folks rather than you just blazing away a lot. Better spells to imbue on arrows than other options. Lose two BAB not just one. This is more commonly taken on an arcane heavy version that doens't advance past 2 levels of arcane archer. Wiz or Sor12 - similar feat problems to bard, and again, this is more commonly done just to toss antimagic fields with arrows. can't speak for Duskblade, don't know that class.
MerlintheTuna 07-12-06, 05:39 AM	Ranger 6/Wizard 1 is a solid opening; 6th level is good for pretty much every class (+1 to all saves, +1 BAB regardless of class) and the Ranger scores Manyshot and a 1st level spell out of the deal as well. With the PHB 2, you can take Distracting Attack and not worry about your animal companion's advancement (or lack thereof). True Strike has no somatic component, so it doesn't suffer Arcane Spell Failure, which makes it a spectacular spell for a Ranger/Wiz/AA; slap that on a Manyshot and you've got 2-4 arrows hitting when you absolutely need them to. Duskblade is certainly a solid class for this as well, especially since you can get into the PrC a level earlier, but Ranger 6 scores you a lot of skill points, a pair of feats you'd probably take anyway, and some basic divine spellcasting. After all, nobody complains when there's another party member that can carry around the ubiquitous wand of Cure Light Wounds. Short version: I'd say Ranger 6/Wiz 1 for your opening unless you're not likely to hit very high levels, in which case Duskblade 6 is better simply because you're in sooner.
pvrhye 07-12-06, 07:10 PM	I've always like wiz 10/ arcane archer 10. Be sure to tack on practiced spellcaster. Though I wonder with some though if a person can weave some sublime chord cheese in there somewhere. Anyhow, the pure wizard build loses 5 BAB, which is somewhat mitigated by the extra attack frmo rapid shot, and gets higher level spells.
Vorlir 07-12-06, 09:26 PM	I figure you should either go the whole way with arcane archer and just get enough arcane to qualify or concentrate on your casting and only do a 2 level dip for imbue arrow. Going 10/10 doesnt seem very efficient, and not legal anyway, you need +6 bab for arcane archer.
MerlintheTuna 07-13-06, 04:54 AM	Really, I don't see Imbue Arrow as a very good ability anyway, even if you focus on spellcasting instead of arrow-shooting. This is why: Lack of casting progression: The fact that you don't get spellcasting for those two levels of AA means that you're already a spell level behind a full caster, AND you almost assuredly had to eat a level or more of a non-spellcasting class to satisfy the BAB requirement. Size of battles: A composite longbow has a range increment of 110 ft. Since it can shoot up to 10 range increments, this makes for a total range of up to 1100 ft. But how often does your DM incorporate enemies who are farther than 50-100 ft away? A long range spell can already shoot over 400 ft, and a medium range spell over 100 ft. With ranges like these, it's hard to imagine many situations where more range would really be necessary. Arrows don't help: Because of the range issues already mentioned, having a spell that you COULD cast otherwise be put in an arrow provides no advantage. Why put Fireball in an arrow and shoot it at someone (requiring an attack roll) instead of just casting Fireball normally and hitting automatically? Ultimately, I see Imbue Arrow as a way to increase the level of dickery available to you with low level spells. Example -- Grease has range Close (25ft +2.5/level) and is a solid spell for a long time. You certainly won't be putting it in a LOT of arrows, but hey, every now and then you need something 80 feet away to be slippery. One could also make a case for Ghost Sound (since making noise is effectively an area effect), which could make for some interesting applications of Imbue Arrow. I think that 1st level spells are likely to be enough for IA, and failing that, 2nd level. (For things like Shatter, which is always fun). Anything past that seems foolhardy. The Arcane Archer is an archer first and an arcanist second. He's got full BAB and no spellcasting progression; Imbue Arrow is an appetizer for the class, not the main course. Don't build your meal around it.
Necromas 07-13-06, 06:38 AM	I reccomend NOT taking barbarian for rage, simply because if you rage, it changes your strength score, so you would need two composite bows, one for normal use and one to use during rage. As far as I know, besides unique bows, there is no enhancement you can give to a bow that makes it change the composite level.
Some Like It Hot 07-13-06, 09:10 AM	The great thing about imbue arrow is this: you can imbue the arrow with spells that normally have to centered on you. Stapling a caster to the wall with an antimagic field is loads of fun. As far as battle field control, it's not perfect and it's not a great deal better than straight caster, but it lends itself to some pretty interesting strategies that are otherwise unavailable. I like ranged gishes, especially since you can blast away with rays and orbs if the spells fall out of favor. I generally go for more caster levels, though. -SLIH
solbergb 07-13-06, 11:22 AM	I reccomend NOT taking barbarian for rage, simply because if you rage, it changes your strength score, so you would need two composite bows, one for normal use and one to use during rage. As far as I know, besides unique bows, there is no enhancement you can give to a bow that makes it change the composite level. No. You just take one bow and rage all the time. The barbarian trick is pretty much tied to taking extra rage. You might have a low strength "Backup" bow (which isn't uncommon anyway, as fatigue or a touch of strength damage can really hose an archer). Ditch the backup bow once you can afford a belt of strength. I've seen the barbarian route done, and it works pretty well. You can have some problems when you have more than 3 difficult fights a day (in the EL=party level encounters, just use the cheap backup bow or suck up the -2, you'll hit anyway). Typically the attribute points you save on strength go directly into constitution and/or spellcasting attributes that make up for the -2 or make the character more durable in straight melee.
LogicNinja 07-13-06, 11:25 AM	The great thing about imbue arrow is this: you can imbue the arrow with spells that normally have to centered on you. Stapling a caster to the wall with an antimagic field is loads of fun. As far as battle field control, it's not perfect and it's not a great deal better than straight caster, but it lends itself to some pretty interesting strategies that are otherwise unavailable. Wouldn't the spell be centered on the arrow, which could be tossed away?
Abulafia 07-13-06, 11:29 AM	Wiz 1/BAB 6 to eliminate the multiple attribute dependency problem. Put skill points into Craft (Bowmaking) to make your own masterwork mighty composite longbows. As far as the imbue arrow problem goes, every single-caster-level solution is going to be crappy, but Wiz 1 is the least crappy. At least you can learn all of the 1st-level area-effect spells (Hypnotism, Sleep, and Color Spray being somewhat useful) [off topic]Where can one find the Duskblade's complete spell list? The list in PH2 seemed limited to new spells.[/off topic]