Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cuchulainshound 09-07-06, 04:05 PM	This probably has been addressed long ago, but can anyone make the AA work? Maybe this question is like one of those "optimize this weak character" challenges. I like the concept, an Archer who sends magic out with their arrows. And it really comes into its own in outdoor campaigns, where being able to send a Sleep spell or a Fireball 1000' (~300m) or more can really be useful. (Great for antagonist NPC's, too, to drop in magic from out of nowhere, just to let the PC's know they're not forgotten.) But every time I've tried to make it work, either the archer half or the arcane half just isn't there, or isn't there 'til absurdly late levels. (Being able to cast only 3rd levels spells at mid-levels is... quirky, at best.) Suggestions? (other than "Forget it!")
rilem 09-07-06, 04:11 PM	Two levels of Arcane Archer are fine. In a Ranged Gish build, using Imbue Arrow with Antimagic Field is neat. It works with Bard, too — Bard16/ArcaneArcher2/Fighter2 is perfectly good. Not many people like Arcane Archer 10, though it can work in certain circumstances — like when you don't have reliable access to Greater Magic Weapon. Solbergb (I think it's him) likes the PrC for the skill list and self-sufficiency. But Arcane Archer 10 is NOT a real caster. Don't try to make it one.
Save-vs-DM 09-07-06, 04:19 PM	The problem is, there isn't a lot of synergy between arcane archer and a spellcaster. You loose spellcasting to gain abilities that are tied to spellcasting. My first thought these days is duskblade, but thier melee channeling abilities mesh poorly with an archer. Second thought is battle sorcerer, but that doesn't work quite right either. Basically, this is sort of like a gish for archers, only the prestige class doesn't work for the gish. It's too bad tome of battle doesn't work with archery, then it would make this build worth it. However, it works well as a dip. I might go: Race: Elf Feats: 1: Militia 3: Point Blank Shot 6: Weapon Focus (Longbow) 9: Precise Shot 12: Rapid Shot 15: Open 18: Open Sorcerer 6/Eldrich Knight 4/Arcane Archer 2/Order of the Bow Initiate 2/Eldrich Knight +6 This gives you: BAB: +17 Spells: 7th level (CL 15th) That's about the best I can think if atm. Cheers, Save vs DM
solbergb 09-07-06, 04:37 PM	arcane archer is like dragon disciple. Neither are caster classes. The class to compare it to is not eldritch knight, but to Ranger. It's really an "arcane ranger", getting familiar and weak arcane spells plus built-in GMW in exchange for animal companion speedbump and weak druid spells with built-in favored enemy bonuses. Rangers get 2 more skill points, but arcane archers tend to have +4 intelligence/-4 wisdom compared to rangers built on the same # of points, so this is a wash. (the familiar sensory bonuses and bonus feats counter the effects of the -4 wisdom on spot/listen) The two classes stack up very well against each other, with certain strengths/weaknesses but in general filling the same role, but with different flavor. AA also is very nice going epic, and you have a few levels free to PRC without affecting epic progression compared to ranger, letting you sneak in some other feats or class abilities to make up for the weaker AA class abilities compared to ranger. Like pure ranger, your fort and reflex saves will be good, your will save will suck (that wizard level cancels the -4 wisdom out again for will saves though - it really is a good parallel) I'm playing one now, at level 8 in a campaign where he'll retire at level 16. He's been consistently strong compared to other archers, equal to the best built other ways, slightly better than average. I don't see that likely to change in the 9-16 game as long as I spend my cash and feats wisely. Mage/archers which take 2 levels of arcane archer for the imbue arrow ability have a hard time mustering the feats until level 9 to actually *be* a decent archer, and even then generally have to stay in 3/4 or 1/2 BAB classes to avoid being behind even more spell levels. Arcane disciple (War) can be a nice complement, to get divine power into the mix to fix the BAB. The list of spells better on an imbue instead of just casting though, is vanishingly small. Most arcanists would rather just have higher level spells and class/prc abilities. I'd rather just build an "Eldritch Archer", being 2 caster levels behind but getting full BAB once I qualify, and focusing on stuff like GMW, flame arrow, sonic arrow, energy substitution to get another element on the bow, etc. Arcane disciple (war) can also help this kind of build, if you can handle the MAD.
Daeger 09-07-06, 05:00 PM	I think the main problem with arcane archer is the fact that it's so hard to qualify for, really. I can't see ever playing one in a game where we start at level 1.
lokean 09-07-06, 05:25 PM	Arcane Archer is most effective, in my experience, when taken for a couple of levels and stacked up alongside Cleric. Imbue Arrow is not limited to arcane spells, allowing a clerical AA to project any number of useful area spells that are usually based on his location to a distant position. Plus, the cleric spell list lends itself to combat far better than the wizard list.
BoSheck 09-07-06, 05:28 PM	I'm playing a Fire Elf in a long-running campaign, at the moment. We've gone 1-8 so far, ground up, and I intend to go into arcane archer at level 9 or 10 and take it all the way up. The trick to the class is meeting your requirements, staying optimal all the way (instead of "OMG I PWN at 20") And, of course, it's heaped with mountains of Elf flavor. If you look it over, Elven Paragon lends itself very well to the requirements. My build currently looks something like this (or will): Fighter1/Wizard2/Elf Paragon3/Spellsword1/Ruathar2/Arcane Archer 10/Finish off Ruathar-->Epic lov'n time. A build like that ends up reasonably nice. The trick is, your spellcasting isn't your big gun. You can put feebleminds and touch of idiocies in arrows, which is very nice, but it's not your focus. (Splitting touch of idiocy for bonus points!) My most commonly used spells are sonic weapon, burning rage (go fire elf!), and arrow mind. She's a diviner, so I use a gray bag of tricks plus chain of eyes for sneaky scouting. Later on I'll use arcane eye and phase arrow. Feats to look out for, are standards (point blank shot, precise shot, you get weapon focus longbow for free) Shot on the run isn't worth it in my opinion too many feats for something you can get a similar (if not better) effect with manyshot. Unless you absolutely have to have it. I took ranged disarm too, we'll see if the DM lets me use that with hail of arrows, and if not, it's quite a thematically fun feat. The old Dragon (was it 213?) Deadeye Shot (add dex to dam with bow on targets within 30 feet.) gives her excellent damage output. As for the other abilities? Free magic arrows all the way up to +5. No xp cost, no money cost, that weapon enhancement frees up a lot of cash that you can do more fun stuff with. Phase arrows and Seeker Arrows also give you more weapon abilites for free. I'm not even sure if the ability of phase is available on a weapon. And like I said, they synergize with low level divination spells. Shoot the baddies down the way, around the corner, and on the next lower level before they even see you. Arrow of death is just there for flavor, seriously. The ability needs to be beefed up a little, and you can do that with a feat, and an epic feat (ability focus, and epic arrow of death. +2 and +5 respectively.) But it's not that great of an ability because it's flavor. "I've got one arrow, and it's a sure shot." Kind of deal. If they save, so what, you still hit them, if they fail, then coolness points to you. So in my long-winded opinion, yes, it's worth playing, and it can work pretty well. Isn't that what optimization is about anyway? Making an idea work well?
ninjarabbit 09-07-06, 05:32 PM	bard8/arcanearcher2/sublimechord2/eldritchknight8
PhoenixInferno 09-07-06, 05:46 PM	I also like using Arcane Archer to qualify for Eldritch Knight's martial weapons prerequisite.
JosephKell 09-07-06, 06:18 PM	Bard 8/Arcane Archer X is pretty nice in Living Greyhawk. You get your +1 Bow and just start throwing things on it like Flaming, Shocking, Bane (Undead), etc. Then just use Arcane Archer for stacking +1's. So when you have +3 arrow you basically get free +2 to hit and damage in addition with the enhancement substitutions. Inspire Courage adds to ranged damage. So Inspirational Boosted Inspire Courage at level 8 would be +3 to hit and damage. With Arcane Archer you take the consistant damage of an archer and enlarge it. A Bard/Arcane Archer can also do Haste (which every party enjoys). Plus it keeps the Bard off the front line.
Surreal 09-07-06, 09:32 PM	I think Dragon Devotee could make a pretty decent entry into Arcane Archer. Very easy prereqs, you lose a few BAB, but you gain sorcerer spellcasting, some stat bumps, and two feats. Incidentally, if you're going the scout route Dragon Devotee is the fastest skirmish progression available (2d6 skirmish in 4 levels).
ChristopherGroves 09-07-06, 09:50 PM	The best build I've see was a 2 level arcane archer dip, 1 level of assasin or something and cleric 17. Booyah. Then again, Clerics rock.
Necromas 09-07-06, 09:55 PM	A nice way to get Arcane Archer if you completely ignore the spellcasting side, is just to use duskblade to get into it. Of course, that doesnt look like what you want. :(
solbergb 09-07-06, 10:11 PM	I think the main problem with arcane archer is the fact that it's so hard to qualify for, really. I can't see ever playing one in a game where we start at level 1. ?? Unless your campaigns never go past level 7, it isn't hard at all to qualify for. Ranger6/wiz1 Fighter6/wiz1 Ranger2/fighter4/wiz1 All of the feat reqs you want anyway on an archer. You can make a very strong level 1-7 build out of any of these. Especially if wood elves are allowed in your campaign. Only the "mage with a bow" builds take a long time (bard8/AA2/PRCx or wiz/sor12/AA2/prcX builds). If you just want an "Arcane ranger" though, you can do it easily enough. You can even take the wiz level earlier if you want the arcane flavor sooner, but it delays your BAB6 which can be awkward.
Pinky's brain 09-07-06, 11:14 PM	The two classes stack up very well against each other, with certain strengths/weaknesses but in general filling the same role, but with different flavor.The ranger gets a smattering of spellcasting, full BAB all the way, useful bonus feats, favored enemy, evasion and some random abilities which are only situationally useful. The arcane archer gets a smattering of spellcasting by giving up BAB, some random abilities which are only situationally useful ... with his crowning achievement being not having to ask any of the casters in the party for a GMW in the morning! Even without splatbooks the ranger is plain better, with assorted ranger spells from splatbooks it's like comparing a core fighter to the ToB classes.
ShneekeyTheLost 09-07-06, 11:40 PM	Hmm... here's an idea for AA... Do a sort of Gish, with Fighter1 and either Wiz5 or Sorc6, then EK until you meet prereqs for AA. You've actually got some decent spells to load into your arrows now, decent BAB, and you get utility out of nearly everything the class gives you. Still sub-par, IMO, but not a bad idea.
|)ar|{ 09-08-06, 12:42 AM	For a recent ebberron game I had a lot of fun with a duskblade 1/ cleric (silverflame) X/ Arcane archer 2. Solid BAB, 9th levels spells if you take X as all cleric plus great flavor with the church of the silver flame. If you can get your DM to go along with sects of silverflame option (pg 29 sb of pgte) be part of the knights militant, they get war, endurance, exorcism, good and wrath as thier domains (better for archer builds) If Ebb isn't to your taste I've always liked the idea of warlock/AA combo... don't have those books with me but If you DM lets you drop you blasts through the imbue arrow feature that seems like it could be pretty solid or at least pretty fun.
PhoenixInferno 09-08-06, 12:47 AM	I think Dragon Devotee could make a pretty decent entry into Arcane Archer. Very easy prereqs, you lose a few BAB, but you gain sorcerer spellcasting, some stat bumps, and two feats. Incidentally, if you're going the scout route Dragon Devotee is the fastest skirmish progression available (2d6 skirmish in 4 levels).Let's say "non-invasive" instead of "pretty decent", shall we?
runestar 09-08-06, 01:05 AM	The problem with the arcane archer is that its main class feature - free +5 arrows, can be readily replicated via a single spell - greater magic weapon, which lasts all day anyways. The remaining class features aren't really that attractive.:(
saru 09-08-06, 01:36 AM	one build is fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/eldritch knight 1/arcane archer 2/EK +9/wizard +1 BAB +17 able to cast 8th level spells, CL 15
solbergb 09-08-06, 07:15 PM	The ranger gets a smattering of spellcasting, full BAB all the way, useful bonus feats, favored enemy, evasion and some random abilities which are only situationally useful. The arcane archer gets a smattering of spellcasting by giving up BAB, some random abilities which are only situationally useful ... with his crowning achievement being not having to ask any of the casters in the party for a GMW in the morning! Even without splatbooks the ranger is plain better, with assorted ranger spells from splatbooks it's like comparing a core fighter to the ToB classes. You're comparing 20 levels of ranger to 10 levels of arcane archer. That's not fair, especially when you consider that an AA build can have up to 9 ranger levels in it if they want, and ranger is pretty thorougly frontloaded. The typical ranger6/wiz1 entry point gets you two of the three archery feats, two of the four favored enemy bumps, tracking, endurance (for PRC entry perhaps), an animal companion speedbump, druid spells if you had room for 12 wisdom (and ranger spell list for wands even if you did not) - and even more skill points given the intelligence emphasis. Access to the entire sor/wiz spell list is also not entirely to be sneered at. An arcane archer can use a wand of dimension door any time, a scroll of invis or knock with only 5% chance to fail, etc. He can reduce for stealth purposes, enlarge to fend off grapples, boost AC with shield, prot evil (and alter self with only 5% chance to fail). And you've still got access to the ranger spell list, if only from wands. It's a smattering of magic, but it is *good* magic. This stacks up fairly well against the ranger8-ranger17 levels, where you mostly get evasion and camoflauge. If your party lacks a cleric or wizard, (druids/bards don't do GMW, sorcs/favored soul may not know GMW) AA is totally worth it. If it has one, it lets you do an "Arcane ranger" and fill the role as well as a "druidic ranger" does. HOW it fills he role varies a bit. The AA will want more level 1-2 scrolls and more wands than the ranger, but will also likely do more damage to non-favored enemies (weapon spec is easy to fit in, via fighter or pious templar levels) and being slightly ahead of the GMW curve (barring divine spellpower and bead of karma boosts) for most nonepic levels...and after epic there is no question AA is a strong class. Nothing else gives you epic damage reduction penetration for free (and +6 to +10 to damage on each shot)
Pinky's brain 09-08-06, 08:12 PM	Wands of third and fourth level are expensive toys ... nevermind the fact that it doesn't work for stuff like arrow split & arrow storm. Also nothing of what you mention comes from the AA levels! It comes from the single level dip into wizard. The only effective thing an AA can do is imbue arrow + AMF. The class is literally good for nothing else. If you can't get AMF into your AA build there is no point to it.
Moon-Lancer 09-09-06, 02:07 AM	what kind of spell progression should an arcane arcer have in order to be not too powerfull but not weak, asumeing we are house ruleing.
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 09-09-06, 02:22 AM	Wands of third and fourth level are expensive toys ... nevermind the fact that it doesn't work for stuff like arrow split & arrow storm. Also nothing of what you mention comes from the AA levels! It comes from the single level dip into wizard. The only effective thing an AA can do is imbue arrow + AMF. The class is literally good for nothing else. If you can't get AMF into your AA build there is no point to it. Actually, if we read the Splitting enhancement, which should be on anybody's spell list, the Arcane Archer can double all of those spells that they put on their arrows. It's also a standard action to use the embue an arrow ability. This means that even spells with a longer casting time can be tossed into the mix. This is great for a sorcerer. Even without delving into ways to get some of the nifty cleric buffs onto your spell list, an Arcane Archer can rock as a battle field controller. They have much less worry about being out of position to drop an AoE spell.
Pinky's brain 09-09-06, 02:29 AM	Okay, if you use splitting/arrow split with imbue arrow it becomes a potent 2 level dip (and still a complete waste of levels beyond that, which what the discussion with Solbergb was about).
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 09-09-06, 02:45 AM	I didn't quote Solbergb. I really should have only quoted this part... The only effective thing an AA can do is imbue arrow + AMF. The class is literally good for nothing else. If you can't get AMF into your AA build there is no point to it. Since the only part of your post I really disagreed with. At any rate, still not a complete waste of levels. Situationally nice, but not completely useless. Free magical arrows is great for making a self-sufficient character. Also, get a few buffs from the cleric list and you're set to go.