Arcane Archer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Archer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rashomon
06-22-06, 04:27 AM I'm not exactly looking for a build here - this is just to ask what breakable features the arcane archer has. The most obvious thing is its auto-enchanted arrows which can be scary nasty when you're unloading tons of them. A friend of mine was telling me about an arcane archer, which vastly outperformed his own melee gish at epic levels. So I was wondering how it would fare pre-epic.

However, is it superior to such classes as Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer, or Order of the Bow Initiate?
Tytalus
06-22-06, 05:51 AM It's generally considered to be not worth it. Have your friendly party cleric drop a greater Magic Weapon at the right time, or simply use a Quiver of Anariel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats) to get the same effect.

The only feature worth mentioning is Imbue Arrow, which is of ok use in some archer gish builds.
El_Machinae
06-22-06, 07:59 AM I have yet to see a truely useful Arcane Archer build. The PrC looks cool, to be sure, but just doesn't seem to do anything.
androcles
06-22-06, 10:29 AM the only way to really make it shine is in gestalt builds. for instance, if you take a wizard/arcane archer/cragtop archer you could potentially imbue an arrow with wail of the banshee and then shoot it as a standard action with unlimited range
PhoenixInferno
06-22-06, 11:54 AM Oddly enough, there is an Arcane Archer Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=468623) thread.
Calico Jack Drake
06-22-06, 11:58 AM I'm kinda curious about the idea that it's a weak class. Granted most of the levels that aren't +1 to the enchancement bonus on the bow are mostly useless, but in combination with Deep Woods Sniper 1 for auto-Keen arrows, an archer can invest in a +1 bow and then stack all kinds of extra damage types on top of it. Everything gets tied up in the bow, but throwing three or four or five arrows down range evey round that are +5 keen flaming frost thundering electrical sonic etc etc doesn't seem all that weak to me. Especially when you factor in the Fighter BAB giving you a pretty good hit probability. Add a couple levels of Kensai in there and you have a fairly versitile bowmaster.

--CJ
solbergb
06-22-06, 12:30 PM It isn't that arcane archer is weak, it is that GMW is strong.

If you have a cleric, a wizard or a sorc with the spell known, their GMW advancement closely parallels the arcane archer enhancement.

In campaigns where GMW on your bow isn't a given, then the arcane archer compares well to a greater weapon spec fighter in to-hit and damage, and has better saves and skills, plus a few minor magic tricks.

(who plays an arcane archer in Living Greyhawk, a campaign where GMW isn't assured, although it starts becoming fairly common in the APL12+ range where the arcane archer enhancement bonuses start becoming significant. For me the best part about the class is it lets me have higher int for skills while still getting my CV archery swift action spells)

One advantage in epic levels is the enhancment bonus progresses into epic DR range (+6 and above) which means the arcane archer doesn't suddenly have to slap a +5 enhancmement bonus on his multi-d6 weapon just for DR reasons - and of course his AA enhancements exceed what GMW can do.

Until epic though, most CO arcane archers are attempts to somehow leverage the "toss spell with an arrow" feature to toss high level short-range or zero range spells around. As a straight archer, you can do a better build without it if you can assume you get GMW every day from level 10 onwards.
Rashomon
06-22-06, 12:31 PM Oddly enough, there is an Arcane Archer Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=468623) thread.

Thank you kindly, PI.
Calico Jack Drake
06-23-06, 11:00 AM It isn't that arcane archer is weak, it is that GMW is strong.

GMW is strong compared to the AA Enhancement progression? In 3.0 where GMW was +1/3 levels I would probably have agreed, but the AA gets +3 at 11th level (assuming Ftr 5/Wiz 1/AA 5) where GMW doesn't grant it until 12th in 3.5. AA only trumps GMW further from there, giving a +5 weapon 5 levels before you could get it with GMW.

Sorry, I just don't see it

BTW, thanks for the link to the AA Opt thread. I always thought the embedded spell was the weakest ability of the AA. After reading the thread, I'm still not convinced it isn't. It probably would be if encounter distances started >1200 feet but I don't know of a single DM that will run an encounter at that kind of range.

--Jack
solbergb
06-23-06, 12:23 PM You are underestimating the myriad ways that casters can raise caster level.

Off the top of my head: Bead of karma (+4), Orange ioun stone (+1), inspire spellpower (+1), harmonic chorus (+2), inspire spellpower (+4), wild mage (up to +3), the divine feat that makes a spell "good" plus good domain (+1). I think there is some kind of pixie familiar option that also boosts caster level but I don't know the details. I'm sure there are many other ways I have not considered.

This tends to balance out the faster progression.

Here's how it works in the games I see:

L8: GMW = +2, arcane archer +1
L10: GMW = +2-3, arcane archer +2
L12: GMW = +3-4, arcane archer +3
L14: GMW = +3-5, arcane archer +4
L16: GMW = +4-5, arcane archer +5

The point is that GMW is as good or better than arcane archer until level 16, and at level 16, it's likely as good because by then a bead of karma is cheap.

Cost of GMW: Ask your friendly spellcaster to prep it

Cost of Arcane Archer? 9 levels that give adequate bab/skills but do nothing to advance either spellcasting or archery feats, beyond a few 1/day tricks that can't be mixed with volley fire or multishot.

Most folks can find something to do with those 9 levels which make them a better archer - *if* they can count on that GMW being cast.

If you can't reliably get GMW, then the class ability is pretty good after level 10 (it's meaningless before then)
solbergb
06-23-06, 12:26 PM It probably would be if encounter distances started >1200 feet but I don't know of a single DM that will run an encounter at that kind of range.

--Jack

You tend to get that in these circumstances:

1. Military battles or campaigns (outranging the other guy is huge when they have large enough numbers that concealment doesn't really work)

2. Flying combat with enemies that have good ranged abilities

3. The bad guy is trying to get away by sheer speed.

Once I had guided shot, I found quite a few situations where I was firing from over 1000' away...because I could freaking hit things from there. This sort of thing does require a great spot skill though, to mitigate the range mods....or terrain that doesn't provide cover or concealment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rashomon 06-22-06, 04:27 AM	I'm not exactly looking for a build here - this is just to ask what breakable features the arcane archer has. The most obvious thing is its auto-enchanted arrows which can be scary nasty when you're unloading tons of them. A friend of mine was telling me about an arcane archer, which vastly outperformed his own melee gish at epic levels. So I was wondering how it would fare pre-epic. However, is it superior to such classes as Deepwood Sniper, Peerless Archer, or Order of the Bow Initiate?
Tytalus 06-22-06, 05:51 AM	It's generally considered to be not worth it. Have your friendly party cleric drop a greater Magic Weapon at the right time, or simply use a Quiver of Anariel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats) to get the same effect. The only feature worth mentioning is Imbue Arrow, which is of ok use in some archer gish builds.
El_Machinae 06-22-06, 07:59 AM	I have yet to see a truely useful Arcane Archer build. The PrC looks cool, to be sure, but just doesn't seem to do anything.
androcles 06-22-06, 10:29 AM	the only way to really make it shine is in gestalt builds. for instance, if you take a wizard/arcane archer/cragtop archer you could potentially imbue an arrow with wail of the banshee and then shoot it as a standard action with unlimited range
PhoenixInferno 06-22-06, 11:54 AM	Oddly enough, there is an Arcane Archer Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=468623) thread.
Calico Jack Drake 06-22-06, 11:58 AM	I'm kinda curious about the idea that it's a weak class. Granted most of the levels that aren't +1 to the enchancement bonus on the bow are mostly useless, but in combination with Deep Woods Sniper 1 for auto-Keen arrows, an archer can invest in a +1 bow and then stack all kinds of extra damage types on top of it. Everything gets tied up in the bow, but throwing three or four or five arrows down range evey round that are +5 keen flaming frost thundering electrical sonic etc etc doesn't seem all that weak to me. Especially when you factor in the Fighter BAB giving you a pretty good hit probability. Add a couple levels of Kensai in there and you have a fairly versitile bowmaster. --CJ
solbergb 06-22-06, 12:30 PM	It isn't that arcane archer is weak, it is that GMW is strong. If you have a cleric, a wizard or a sorc with the spell known, their GMW advancement closely parallels the arcane archer enhancement. In campaigns where GMW on your bow isn't a given, then the arcane archer compares well to a greater weapon spec fighter in to-hit and damage, and has better saves and skills, plus a few minor magic tricks. (who plays an arcane archer in Living Greyhawk, a campaign where GMW isn't assured, although it starts becoming fairly common in the APL12+ range where the arcane archer enhancement bonuses start becoming significant. For me the best part about the class is it lets me have higher int for skills while still getting my CV archery swift action spells) One advantage in epic levels is the enhancment bonus progresses into epic DR range (+6 and above) which means the arcane archer doesn't suddenly have to slap a +5 enhancmement bonus on his multi-d6 weapon just for DR reasons - and of course his AA enhancements exceed what GMW can do. Until epic though, most CO arcane archers are attempts to somehow leverage the "toss spell with an arrow" feature to toss high level short-range or zero range spells around. As a straight archer, you can do a better build without it if you can assume you get GMW every day from level 10 onwards.
Rashomon 06-22-06, 12:31 PM	Oddly enough, there is an Arcane Archer Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=468623) thread. Thank you kindly, PI.
Calico Jack Drake 06-23-06, 11:00 AM	It isn't that arcane archer is weak, it is that GMW is strong. GMW is strong compared to the AA Enhancement progression? In 3.0 where GMW was +1/3 levels I would probably have agreed, but the AA gets +3 at 11th level (assuming Ftr 5/Wiz 1/AA 5) where GMW doesn't grant it until 12th in 3.5. AA only trumps GMW further from there, giving a +5 weapon 5 levels before you could get it with GMW. Sorry, I just don't see it BTW, thanks for the link to the AA Opt thread. I always thought the embedded spell was the weakest ability of the AA. After reading the thread, I'm still not convinced it isn't. It probably would be if encounter distances started >1200 feet but I don't know of a single DM that will run an encounter at that kind of range. --Jack
solbergb 06-23-06, 12:23 PM	You are underestimating the myriad ways that casters can raise caster level. Off the top of my head: Bead of karma (+4), Orange ioun stone (+1), inspire spellpower (+1), harmonic chorus (+2), inspire spellpower (+4), wild mage (up to +3), the divine feat that makes a spell "good" plus good domain (+1). I think there is some kind of pixie familiar option that also boosts caster level but I don't know the details. I'm sure there are many other ways I have not considered. This tends to balance out the faster progression. Here's how it works in the games I see: L8: GMW = +2, arcane archer +1 L10: GMW = +2-3, arcane archer +2 L12: GMW = +3-4, arcane archer +3 L14: GMW = +3-5, arcane archer +4 L16: GMW = +4-5, arcane archer +5 The point is that GMW is as good or better than arcane archer until level 16, and at level 16, it's likely as good because by then a bead of karma is cheap. Cost of GMW: Ask your friendly spellcaster to prep it Cost of Arcane Archer? 9 levels that give adequate bab/skills but do nothing to advance either spellcasting or archery feats, beyond a few 1/day tricks that can't be mixed with volley fire or multishot. Most folks can find something to do with those 9 levels which make them a better archer - if they can count on that GMW being cast. If you can't reliably get GMW, then the class ability is pretty good after level 10 (it's meaningless before then)
solbergb 06-23-06, 12:26 PM	It probably would be if encounter distances started >1200 feet but I don't know of a single DM that will run an encounter at that kind of range. --Jack You tend to get that in these circumstances: 1. Military battles or campaigns (outranging the other guy is huge when they have large enough numbers that concealment doesn't really work) 2. Flying combat with enemies that have good ranged abilities 3. The bad guy is trying to get away by sheer speed. Once I had guided shot, I found quite a few situations where I was firing from over 1000' away...because I could freaking hit things from there. This sort of thing does require a great spot skill though, to mitigate the range mods....or terrain that doesn't provide cover or concealment.