Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sCRuLooSe 07-18-05, 11:59 AM	Could someone give me some optimization tips for modifying a full progression arcane spell-caster (and to a lesser extent divine caster) to allow for decent combat options in a non-magic environment. WoTC only but any source allowed except for the Cheater of Mystra/Cancer Mage. I want to use a minimum of resources to make the spell-caster useful in a non-magic area while optimizing the character's spell casting abilities. The best I have come up with so far is using sleight of hand at the cost of a progression level. The problem I see with most gish builds that I have seen is that they are still heavily reliant on magic for their combat prowress. Any ideas are welcome. Thanks
Todd 07-18-05, 12:31 PM	The "Invoke Magic" 9th level spell from Lords of Madness can be cast in an anti-magic area and will then let you cast one other spell after it. Good for emergencies but has an expensive component. Will work in antimagic or in a magic dead area. Extraordinary Spell Aim (feat from Complete Adventurer) can be combined with the normal Antimagic Field spell so that it surrounds your caster but doesn't affect him. No spells can be cast in or out of the shell but he can cast on himself. The deal here is that your own anitmagic field will protect you from your foes ... does not work in magic dead areas.
Bopple 07-18-05, 12:45 PM	Extraordinary Spell Aim wouldn't work. If you remove the center square(where you are standing), the spell loses the point of origin. No point of origin = no effect.
Squirrelloid 07-18-05, 12:59 PM	Extraordinary Spell Aim wouldn't work. If you remove the center square(where you are standing), the spell loses the point of origin. No point of origin = no effect. Nothing in the rules says that. 'point of origin' is just so you know where the center is. Ex Spell Aim actually just excludes you from the effect, so its still where you are, it just doesnt effect you. You can draw LoS through the AMF. Arguably, things can cast at you too. (Huh? yeah. Thats what it does). Archmage Mastery of Shaping lets you cut spaces out of AoE, so you can cut out a you-shaped hole in the AMF and cast buffs on yourself, etc... And benefit from the protections of the AMF. This is the optimal personal AMF shield method.
Todd 07-18-05, 01:00 PM	Extraordinary Spell Aim wouldn't work. If you remove the center square(where you are standing), the spell loses the point of origin. No point of origin = no effect. Respectfully I disagree. ;) The feat doesn't remove the center square anyway.
Bopple 07-18-05, 01:10 PM	1. I'd like to hear your reasoning. 2. It doesn't say it removes the square. But if you want the RAW, it's worse than removing the square. It says that when you cast a spell, you can shape the area to unaffect one creature. This means, its shape would be the exact same pose you were having, at the moment of having finished casting. Therefore, if you want to get full benefit, you have to freeze as you were. And as AMF is an emanation, 'centered on you', it doesn't matter it's square or not. If you exclude the area you stand, the point of origin is gone, anyway.
Todd 07-18-05, 01:23 PM	From the SRD Antimagic Field Abjuration Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 10 ft. Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: See text An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. OK, so we have an AREA spell that moves with you. If it "moves with you" and it also "misses you" per the feat then I don't see how you could say that the character would have to stand still. Now let's now look up "area" Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point. A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes. Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere. A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners. When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area. A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through. A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads. Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst , a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape. Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected. Objects: A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead). Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description. (S) Shapeable: If an Area or Effect entry ends with “(S),” you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas. Hmm. Nothing there about it being problematic if if the center of an area spell is missing. Just for reference I looked up the Archmage shaping ability. Mastery of Shaping: The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot. Again nothing there indicates that there would be a problem if the center area was removed. Given all this where does your statement "No point of origin = no effect" come from?
Bopple 07-18-05, 01:31 PM	1. Shaping per feat to miss one. Not missing one per feat. You shape the area to miss you(for example), when you cast it. Yes, it moves around with you. But you don't get the ability to re-shape it continually, after you finished casting it. This is following the extreme case of RAW - unaffect one creature - other than the exact space which the creature occpies, no more unaffected space. 2. It says you have to designate the point of origin. It says the effects originate from the point of origin. If there is no point of origin, how can the effect originate from it?
Snow Savant 07-18-05, 01:48 PM	I want to use a minimum of resources to make the spell-caster useful in a non-magic area while optimizing the character's spell casting abilities. The best I have come up with so far is using sleight of hand at the cost of a progression level. Explain this further. Will you be operating in a lot of anti-magic zones? Or perhaps facing a lot of opposing Anti-Magic field spells? Or are you looking to specialize in running extended AMF's as a Wizard while wishing to crank out unimpeded magic death of your own? The Wizard in my Sig is a 12th level Spellguard of Silvermoon. Her Selective Spell ability will let her run AMF's that don't affect her (if wording Selective Spell properly when it activates). Note: SoS does have some RP limitations to it in regards to time allocation in a long-term campaign. Best to start one at levels 11 or 12 ... once he has "retired".
sCRuLooSe 07-18-05, 04:00 PM	Explain this further. Will you be operating in a lot of anti-magic zones? Or perhaps facing a lot of opposing Anti-Magic field spells? Or are you looking to specialize in running extended AMF's as a Wizard while wishing to crank out unimpeded magic death of your own? Mostly I am looking for a theoretical analysis of options that can be made available to a spellcaster allowing them some flexibility under circumstances where spellcasting/magic item use may not be advisable or possible. The most obvious example of this is when adventuring in a magic dead zone or in a magic-unfriendly environment. I have also had this come up under circumstances where I wished my mage to conceal his magical abilities from observation by creatures that could likely detect magic, where using magic might result in the death of a hostage, where any use of magic strengthened the opposition or powered opponents' spells/gear, where the deity of magic was in trouble/missing, where my deity would not grant me new spells, where the balance of magic world wide was disrupted (time of troubles), or where I expected that I would need to save every magical resource I had for the BBEG. I am not necesarily looking for a specific build, although they are always welcome, but rather something I can incorporate into a wide variety of builds that would provide decent non-magical tactical options in combat versus enemies capable of laughing at a spellcaster's less than optimized non-magical combat abilities. I do not expect to be running into these circumstance regularly, but it does come up often enough (espescially anti-magic zones) that some good advice could be invaluable. Thanks
cvazi 07-18-05, 04:07 PM	Keep a golem/udead army in a bag of holding. The moment the anti-magic field hits, the contents are disgorged into the "real world." Instant army!
Fwib 07-18-05, 05:25 PM	Keep a golem/udead army in a bag of holding. The moment the anti-magic field hits, the contents are disgorged into the "real world." Instant army!Do you have a page reference for extradimensional spaces working that way? I would tend to expect that stopping the magic working would prevent access to the space, not dump everything out of it.
MechaboyDos 07-18-05, 07:46 PM	You could always go with a Gish build and just smack people around with a weapon of some sort.
X-Codes 07-18-05, 08:15 PM	Wiz 6/Fighter 4/Bladesinger 10 Faerun: Sun Elf Greyhawk: Gray Elf Otherwise: Something that gives +2 Int. It will probably have Wizard as a favored class. Make a dex fighter.
Snow Savant 07-18-05, 08:48 PM	First, based upon some of the words you mentioned, it sounds like you are playing in the FRCS. So keep in mind, Shadow Weave users are not affected at all by Dead Magic Zones (pg. 50-something in the FRCS book). I get the gist of what you are talking about. You're looking for a comprehensive toolbox of options for a number of magic-unfriendly scenarios. I'm a big advocate full-progressioned "Stealth Wizards", that use PrC's like Harper Mage, Moonstar Agent, 1 level of Arachnomancer, etc. In essence, Arcane Trickster types without the baloney of losing 2-3 spellcaster levels. I have a number of builds that for such caster types if you are interested. Hide/Move Silently are critical max-out skills, as are usage of Silent Spell Metamagick Rods. Spellcasters like this fit your criteria for casters who wish not to be seen, but the effects of their spells are meant to be felt. It seems you also found the neat trick in the RoS book that lets Sleight of Hand be used as for stealth casting. The Skill Knowledge feat in the UA book helps give you this skill as a class skill - it's mandatory for stealthcasters. Other spells that work well with this archetype are Magic Jar and Shrink Item. To go along with the obvious use of illusions and abjurative protections (that prevent your alignment, magic, and location from being detected). I also can see a use of Contingency and its improved cousin, Shalantha's Delicate Disk (LEoF) for use in some of the scenarios you stated below. Another solution to your worries about being caught in a dead magic zone are savvy uses of the Planar Binding/Planar Ally spells. Which contrary to popular belief, are well worth the hit to gold and XP. It's always good to stay a little behind the party in XP anyway (due to 3.5's rules on XP allocation after winning encounters). The Leadership feat makes sense as well. Get yourself a cohort who *thrives* in dead magic environments. Crap ... I gotta run.
Vallah 07-18-05, 09:21 PM	I recently started an almost identical thread on the D&D boards. I got a few interesting ideas but amongst the best suggestions were to use conjuration spells wich can often ignore antimagic fields and the like (the orb spells from complete arcane are very nice). By far the best idea though (and one that sounds ideal for you) is the initiate of Mystra feat -this allows you to cast through dead magic and AMFs upon a successful spellcraft check, this in itself is useful enough but is even more valuable to a cleric since it allows access to more spells (including the much vaunted Anyspell). :)
runestar 07-18-05, 11:09 PM	wiz3/clr3/MTX/, inititate of mystra feat.
sCRuLooSe 07-19-05, 11:26 AM	Thank-you for some of these great ideas. The "Invoke Magic" 9th level spell from Lords of Madness can be cast in an anti-magic area and will then let you cast one other spell after it. Good for emergencies but has an expensive component. Will work in antimagic or in a magic dead area. Invoke Magic is a bit too high of a level for most of my games, but I will keep it in mind just the same. Keep a golem/udead army in a bag of holding. The moment the anti-magic field hits, the contents are disgorged into the "real world." Instant army! As Fwib noted, bags of holding do not seem to work this way. At least, they have never worked this wa in any of my games. The idea of using undead or constructs is a good option for anti-magic zones (if prep time is available), though. Can anyone recommend a decent contruct or undead for this type of use, keeping in mind that mobility will be an issue in an anti-magic zone, supernatural abilities will not work, and maintaining control may be problematic. You could always go with a Gish build and just smack people around with a weapon of some sort. The idea is to keep the spellcaster competative as a spellcaster but have some options available when magic cannot be used. Gish builds take too big a hit to their spellcasting progression. First, based upon some of the words you mentioned, it sounds like you are playing in the FRCS. So keep in mind, Shadow Weave users are not affected at all by Dead Magic Zones (pg. 50-something in the FRCS book). I have always felt that the losses of using the Shadow Weave exceed the benefits, but I will take a second look at this option. Use of the Shadow Weave, however, is only occasionally an option for me since only 1/2 my games use FR and only 1/2 of those allow non-good characters. I'm a big advocate full-progressioned "Stealth Wizards", that use PrC's like Harper Mage, Moonstar Agent, 1 level of Arachnomancer, etc. In essence, Arcane Trickster types without the baloney of losing 2-3 spellcaster levels. I have a number of builds that for such caster types if you are interested. Hide/Move Silently are critical max-out skills, as are usage of Silent Spell Metamagick Rods. Spellcasters like this fit your criteria for casters who wish not to be seen, but the effects of their spells are meant to be felt. It seems you also found the neat trick in the RoS book that lets Sleight of Hand be used as for stealth casting. The Skill Knowledge feat in the UA book helps give you this skill as a class skill - it's mandatory for stealthcasters. Yes I am interested. Some of these prestige classes will not be available to me, but I have always been fond of mages with decent skill development. The problem is the sacrifice in feats and caster levels realy hurts the core competencies of the spellcasting class. I also like Sleight of Hand for use as a combat option when magic is unavailable; stealing the opponents equipment if frequently a useful option. Can anyone think of any other skills or any feats (only one or two to minimize the impact on feats beneficial to spellcasting) that can be used in a non-magic scenario that provide useful offensive tactical options? Other spells that work well with this archetype are Magic Jar and Shrink Item. To go along with the obvious use of illusions and abjurative protections (that prevent your alignment, magic, and location from being detected). I also can see a use of Contingency and its improved cousin, Shalantha's Delicate Disk (LEoF) for use in some of the scenarios you stated below. Another solution to your worries about being caught in a dead magic zone are savvy uses of the Planar Binding/Planar Ally spells. Which contrary to popular belief, are well worth the hit to gold and XP. It's always good to stay a little behind the party in XP anyway (due to 3.5's rules on XP allocation after winning encounters). I'll re-look at Magic Jar; Shrink Item and Contingency are two of my core spells. Do not have LEoF, what does the Delicate Disk do? Planar Binding spells are even better since they do not require a hit in gold or XP (unlike their summon planar ally equivalents). A high Charisma, the right magic items and support spells, and a way to deal with the summoned creature getting free can allow you to summon a seven day bodyguard or two. I rarely use expensive bribes. The problem with these spells is that most called creatures attract too much attention and or are limited in an anti-magic zone. Does anyone have any ideas regarding creatures especially appropriate for this type of situation? The Leadership feat makes sense as well. Get yourself a cohort who *thrives* in dead magic environments. When it is allowed I take it. Thanks. I got a few interesting ideas but amongst the best suggestions were to use conjuration spells wich can often ignore antimagic fields and the like (the orb spells from complete arcane are very nice). By far the best idea though (and one that sounds ideal for you) is the initiate of Mystra feat Orbs will bypass SR, but cannot be cast in or through an anti-magic aura or field (they are still magic). An instantaneous conjuration effect would work, but I cannot think of any. Indirect attacks can bypass an anti-magic aura fairly easily, but casting them may be difficult in an anti-magic zone. The Initiate of Mystra feat is regularly disallowed in most of my gaming groups because of its involvement with the cheater. Besides, the Initiate of Mystra feat also makes an arcane spellcaster more susceptible to difficulties with the divinities. Still, it is a great option if allowed. Thanks.