Arcane counterspeller [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane counterspeller [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramses III
11-23-04, 09:34 PM Someone mentioned in one of the threads I was reading today that they felt Complete Arcane was lacking for a "Master Counterspeller" or some such prestige class. I am working on an abjurer build to make a counterspeller/arcane spell-duelist, and am curious to discuss what ideas the posters here have for such a build.

One thing I'm specifically curious about, does anyone know of a feat that will increase a character's caster level for dispel checks (or just for all Abjuration spells)? Mind, I know that one can do this by taking Spell Power as a Red Wizard of Thay or an Archmage, but I want to sacrifice as few levels of Abjurer as possible, and specifically taking Red Wizard will make counterspelling in general and Improved Counterspell in particular less effective because of the additional barred school. I am of course looking at cherry-picking the one level of Archmage needed to get Mastery of Counterspelling.

Another question I'd like to discuss is the effect of specialization -- i.e. is it worth it to forego 2 schools of magic, thus no spell slots dedicated to those schools to counter their spells, in order to gain the extra Abjuration spells (specifically Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser GoI, Dispels, and Duelward from CA)? (The schools that right now I'm looking at giving up are Necromancy and Illusion; any suggestions in this arena are welcome as well.)

Thanks in advance for any help offered here :)
lupo58570
11-24-04, 01:41 AM Problem with Counterspell builds is that they bashed the counterspell feats HARD in PGtF. The cost is now FAR too high, especially once you get to high levels, you give up your whole turn to stop one action by one guy, you are already dead.

I have been trying to houserule the feat to make it playable. Has anyone tried to do this? I am still coming up empty trying to do it.
Ramses III
11-24-04, 02:11 AM Burn Reactive Counterspell. I doubt I'd even take it in the build; anyway I don't use any FR material. As to a houserule on it, well, it seems to me it's doomed to be either broken or not good enough. However, check out the CA spell Duelward; it's hot. Lets you use one counterspell as an immediate action. In combination with GoI and Quicken Spell at higher levels, it would be my counterspelling tool of choice. Also I have included Craft Rod in the build I'm working on so I can make a Rod of Absorption.

Out of curiosity, counterspell feats, plural? I thought the only FR one was Reactive. Are there others I should be considering?
ck2001wendt
11-24-04, 08:56 AM Check and see if my "Black Hole" thread is still hanging around...that dealt with explicit attempts to make a Master Counterspeller.

Personally, my group has h-ruled Reactive Counterspell to a standard action (you can't have acted yet, but you can RC even if flat-footed).

For my money, in addition to Counterspelling, a good "Black Hole" focuses on making sure spells never reach him in the first place. Death Ward abilities to block negative levels. There's a set of Eyes in MoF (IIRC) that allows you to automatically Spell Turn all Enchantment spells. There's also the Ring of Greater Counterspells and a weapon enhancement that works the same way.

Some other things to think about.

-The new "Absorption" spell in Complete Arcane makes you a walking Rod of Absorption. It's unfortunate that you don't use FR, because Incantatrix makes this spell chain-able.
-If you h-rule Spellfire Wielder to work like a 3.5 Rod of Absorption (SW originally worked like the Rod in 3.0, but the Rod was changed btw 3.0 and 3.5 so that it no longer requires a readied action), you've got some spell draining going on.
Battousai
11-24-04, 04:48 PM Initiate of the Seven Veils gains a great bonus to dispel checks I think.
Ramses III
11-25-04, 02:13 AM Thanks, ck2001wendt, I will search out your thread and check out the spell. As to Incantatrix, well I doubt I would use it myself, but I started this thread for theoretical discussion of how to optimize a counterspeller so if it helps then cool :) I like your "black hole" idea of restricting spells from affecting the character as much as possible; I see the character as a magical duelist who seeks out casters to best them in magical combat; hence my use of LGoI and GoI in the build as it stands -- I might also add in Repulsion to hedge out summoned creatures and give him an edge against noncaster duelists as well.

Battousai: yes it does, but only against Abjuration spells. However the veil abilities themselves could be worth using for such a character. It really comes down at that point to what feats and skills you sacrifice from the build by not going Wizard.

Any comments on specialization/generalization? I was relying on my assumption that a maximized Dispel Magic would let me counter any spell I couldn't knock off with Improved Counterspell when I first started this build -- then I reread Maximize Spell and kicked myself. Now I'm a little worried about Finger of Death and other Necromancy save or die spells; hence why I'm looking for ways to increase my caster levels for Dispel Magic. Initiate of the Seven Veils doesn't help with this application -- it increases Abjuration caster level only for purposes of attempts to dispel your Abjuration spells.
Battousai
11-25-04, 05:22 AM A dispelling atttempt is a caster level check. Just find ways to raise your caster level for abjuration spells : Archmage, Red Wizard , the various Spell Power...even the Wild Mage trick would help in this case.
Ramses III
11-25-04, 10:42 PM *Taps the first post in the thread several times, loudly*

Yeah, Wild Mage and Practiced spellcaster are a good way to do this. As I stated in the first post though, I have already considered and ruled out Spell Power from Archmage and Red Wizard for the stated reasons. I'm looking for other classes/feats that give the caster level increase.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramses III 11-23-04, 09:34 PM	Someone mentioned in one of the threads I was reading today that they felt Complete Arcane was lacking for a "Master Counterspeller" or some such prestige class. I am working on an abjurer build to make a counterspeller/arcane spell-duelist, and am curious to discuss what ideas the posters here have for such a build. One thing I'm specifically curious about, does anyone know of a feat that will increase a character's caster level for dispel checks (or just for all Abjuration spells)? Mind, I know that one can do this by taking Spell Power as a Red Wizard of Thay or an Archmage, but I want to sacrifice as few levels of Abjurer as possible, and specifically taking Red Wizard will make counterspelling in general and Improved Counterspell in particular less effective because of the additional barred school. I am of course looking at cherry-picking the one level of Archmage needed to get Mastery of Counterspelling. Another question I'd like to discuss is the effect of specialization -- i.e. is it worth it to forego 2 schools of magic, thus no spell slots dedicated to those schools to counter their spells, in order to gain the extra Abjuration spells (specifically Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser GoI, Dispels, and Duelward from CA)? (The schools that right now I'm looking at giving up are Necromancy and Illusion; any suggestions in this arena are welcome as well.) Thanks in advance for any help offered here :)
lupo58570 11-24-04, 01:41 AM	Problem with Counterspell builds is that they bashed the counterspell feats HARD in PGtF. The cost is now FAR too high, especially once you get to high levels, you give up your whole turn to stop one action by one guy, you are already dead. I have been trying to houserule the feat to make it playable. Has anyone tried to do this? I am still coming up empty trying to do it.
Ramses III 11-24-04, 02:11 AM	Burn Reactive Counterspell. I doubt I'd even take it in the build; anyway I don't use any FR material. As to a houserule on it, well, it seems to me it's doomed to be either broken or not good enough. However, check out the CA spell Duelward; it's hot. Lets you use one counterspell as an immediate action. In combination with GoI and Quicken Spell at higher levels, it would be my counterspelling tool of choice. Also I have included Craft Rod in the build I'm working on so I can make a Rod of Absorption. Out of curiosity, counterspell feats, plural? I thought the only FR one was Reactive. Are there others I should be considering?
ck2001wendt 11-24-04, 08:56 AM	Check and see if my "Black Hole" thread is still hanging around...that dealt with explicit attempts to make a Master Counterspeller. Personally, my group has h-ruled Reactive Counterspell to a standard action (you can't have acted yet, but you can RC even if flat-footed). For my money, in addition to Counterspelling, a good "Black Hole" focuses on making sure spells never reach him in the first place. Death Ward abilities to block negative levels. There's a set of Eyes in MoF (IIRC) that allows you to automatically Spell Turn all Enchantment spells. There's also the Ring of Greater Counterspells and a weapon enhancement that works the same way. Some other things to think about. -The new "Absorption" spell in Complete Arcane makes you a walking Rod of Absorption. It's unfortunate that you don't use FR, because Incantatrix makes this spell chain-able. -If you h-rule Spellfire Wielder to work like a 3.5 Rod of Absorption (SW originally worked like the Rod in 3.0, but the Rod was changed btw 3.0 and 3.5 so that it no longer requires a readied action), you've got some spell draining going on.
Battousai 11-24-04, 04:48 PM	Initiate of the Seven Veils gains a great bonus to dispel checks I think.
Ramses III 11-25-04, 02:13 AM	Thanks, ck2001wendt, I will search out your thread and check out the spell. As to Incantatrix, well I doubt I would use it myself, but I started this thread for theoretical discussion of how to optimize a counterspeller so if it helps then cool :) I like your "black hole" idea of restricting spells from affecting the character as much as possible; I see the character as a magical duelist who seeks out casters to best them in magical combat; hence my use of LGoI and GoI in the build as it stands -- I might also add in Repulsion to hedge out summoned creatures and give him an edge against noncaster duelists as well. Battousai: yes it does, but only against Abjuration spells. However the veil abilities themselves could be worth using for such a character. It really comes down at that point to what feats and skills you sacrifice from the build by not going Wizard. Any comments on specialization/generalization? I was relying on my assumption that a maximized Dispel Magic would let me counter any spell I couldn't knock off with Improved Counterspell when I first started this build -- then I reread Maximize Spell and kicked myself. Now I'm a little worried about Finger of Death and other Necromancy save or die spells; hence why I'm looking for ways to increase my caster levels for Dispel Magic. Initiate of the Seven Veils doesn't help with this application -- it increases Abjuration caster level only for purposes of attempts to dispel your Abjuration spells.
Battousai 11-25-04, 05:22 AM	A dispelling atttempt is a caster level check. Just find ways to raise your caster level for abjuration spells : Archmage, Red Wizard , the various Spell Power...even the Wild Mage trick would help in this case.
Ramses III 11-25-04, 10:42 PM	Taps the first post in the thread several times, loudly Yeah, Wild Mage and Practiced spellcaster are a good way to do this. As I stated in the first post though, I have already considered and ruled out Spell Power from Archmage and Red Wizard for the stated reasons. I'm looking for other classes/feats that give the caster level increase.