Arcane Disciple, worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Disciple, worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Angrillori
01-10-05, 09:10 PM I'm currently playing a lvl 11 Human Wizard--Enchantment Specialist(6Wiz/1Mindbender/3Loremaster/1Wayfarer Guide actually).

At the end of our last session, the DM told us we all had earned our next level. My intention was to start taking fatespinner levels to get the 4 with +1 caster/spell level. That aside, we've had enough dealings with the local temple of Pelor that it would be appropriate in character to take the Arcane Disciple feat and take the healing domain.

Since our party is currently Cleric-less, we could benefit from the healing ability. (The party make-up includes myself, a 1/2ling Rogue/Ftr/InvisibleBlade/MasterThrower, a straight Barbarian that isn't often there, and my Cohort, a Wizard similar to my character, and some as-yet-unknown PC played by a guy who will start with the group soon in the coming weeks.)

If I don't take Arcane Disciple, other choices seem to be:
Greater Spell Penetration,
Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, (We seem to fight a lot of magic users, and my enchantment spells seem pretty well useless with the abundance of high will-saves.) or
Arcane Mastery. (This just seems too good to pass up. Take 10 on spell penetration tests? Lvl 12 + 10 + 2 (Spell penetration Feat) would let me automatically bypass any SR < 24.)

I'm thinking that with the Arcane Disciple healing spells available, my character would gain versatility, and at lvl 15 could take the "Spontaneous Healer" feat and really be useful. (Does Spontaneous Healer require a Turn Undead use like Domian Spontanaeity does?)

Thanks for the advice!
charlesatan
01-10-05, 09:37 PM Just remember that Arcane Disciple uses is limited: you can only prepare one spell from that domain per spell level; you also have to have a good Wisdom score in order to be able to cast those spells in the first place.

You can take Spontaneous Healer, but it'll give you only a limited advantage since you only get to "spontaneously" cast a spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Honestly, Arcane Disciple in your case may give you added versatility, but you still won't end up healing the whole party enough times, and you're sacrificing offensive ability for defensive ability. And you have to have a high Wisdom score as well.
wtharp2
01-10-05, 11:33 PM (Please be kind -- this is my first post here...)

If you take Arcane Disciple and take Healing as your domain, you don't actually have to "carry" those healing spells. What you could do, once the healing spells were on your list, is buy and carry wands of healing.

Just a thought...

[insert inane tagline here]
Angrillori
01-11-05, 01:24 PM Just remember that Arcane Disciple uses is limited: you can only prepare one spell from that domain per spell level; you also have to have a good Wisdom score in order to be able to cast those spells in the first place.

You can take Spontaneous Healer, but it'll give you only a limited advantage since you only get to "spontaneously" cast a spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Honestly, Arcane Disciple in your case may give you added versatility, but you still won't end up healing the whole party enough times, and you're sacrificing offensive ability for defensive ability. And you have to have a high Wisdom score as well.

Yeah and that's the dilemma I'm having trouble with.

I've got a natural 14 wis, and could make or buy a + wis item if need be. It's just been a bit of a pain being a cleric-less group. I had forgotten about the "spontaneous" cap, that kind of lowers the desirability on that item. In that case I'd rather go with the Arcane Mastery or whichever next time a feat slot opens up.

But, Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass or Heal, even once per day just would seem so useful.

I was re-reading the feat description yesterday though--as a Wizard, I would still need to learn those spells. That's probably only going to happen at level up. (Which other wizards will have Cure Moderate Wounds in their spellbooks? How many arcane scrolls of CLW will I find?) Even with Collegiate Trained, it would be a while before I had all the domain spells even available. Or am I reading that wrong?
schbob
01-11-05, 03:45 PM I know big heals would be nice, but you said you have a rogue. Use magic device + wand of cure light wounds = 50 x 1d8+1 heals for 750gold, same goes for buying scrolls. But that is more of an after battle heal method like I said big heals would be nice, this just saves downtime. Or someone take leadership and get a cleric follower.

heals, removes, restorations etc are always nice to have

I dunno if these were already said or not, I was to lazy to read ~ Considering you have no healers at all /boggles... you're dm would more than likely allow you to take leadership and a healer follower, just so he can throw real stuff at you. Like ability damage, enervation, undead etc etc. So put the feat to actual use, get leadership and have yourself a walking negator.

Personally I love playing clerics or shamans and would never play anything else, I love the power they have..... negation.... being able to say no that didn't happen is..... godly to say the least.
Angrillori
01-11-05, 05:47 PM I dunno if these were already said or not, I was to lazy to read ~ Considering you have no healers at all /boggles... you're dm would more than likely allow you to take leadership and a healer follower, just so he can throw real stuff at you. Like ability damage, enervation, undead etc etc. So put the feat to actual use, get leadership and have yourself a walking negator.

I don't have my books with me at the moment, so I'm not sure whether or not the leadership feat can be taken twice. Unfortunately I have taken it once already, and have a Wizard-type cohort at the moment.

If we were going to go the route of using leadership to bring a cleric into the mix I'd have to convince someone else to do so. I was toying with the idea of swapping-out my cohort for a cleric (There would have been in-game reasons--we'll be transferring to a different world, giving me the opportunity to leave my Wiz/Lor cohort behind to continue to lead the school I founded and care for the lower level followers. Then I would have the opportunity to take a Cleric we've made friends with in the temple of Pelor ostensibly to allow him to evangelize a whole new world.) but with a couple other developments, it looks like that won't happen.

I don't know if I can get either other player to take leadership for a cleric follower. I'm kind of hoping the new guy might take a cleric. Oh well.

And unfortunately rogue UMD might be out, because the rogue is primarily a combat baddie: Rog3/Ftr2/InvisBlade5/MasterThrower2(3 after this level up). He doesn't have, if I remember right, a lot of skill points devoted to UMD.

But wait! My character does have 13 ranks in UMD gained during the Loremaster levels, that plus +3 Cha bonus, and +3 from a Circlet of Persuasion might allow him to be the Clerical wand-user.

Hey, thanks! That might just work!

Personally I love playing clerics or shamans and would never play anything else, I love the power they have..... negation.... being able to say no that didn't happen is..... godly to say the least.

Yeah. I've grown increasingly jealous the more I read about Clerics. It seems they're rather out-powering Wizards, and just as, if not more, versatile. Esp. now that they've got some nice direct damage, good buffs, etc.
UMiskatonic
01-11-05, 06:22 PM Easy solution...fire your cohort.

The leadership feat gives you the right to have a cohort, but the first cohort you get is in no way permanent. Dump him, and recruit a cleric. Hey, recruit a radiant servant of Pelor while you're at it.

I know what you are thinking. My existing wizard cohort is cool, and can do all these nifty things, and, and, and,...

Whatever he could do, you can do better. Seriously. Because you are a higher level wizard than he is. Your new cohort will also be cool, and will also do nifty things, and he'll be able to turn undead and heal the entire party.

I think after you try it, you'll be glad you did.

This will give your party the iconic four set-up that adventures are designed for. It allows the new player to be whatever he wants, which should help him to keep attending games. It allows you to take your next feat, and become a better wizard with it. And since he's YOUR cohort, it guarantees that you will be as protected as a cleric can make you.

(I'd encourage the rogue to take UMD anyway. If someone paralyzes the cleric, you need someone to unfreeze him)

Cheers,
Umiskatonic
Snow Savant
01-11-05, 06:31 PM Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes.

1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants.

2. Minor Creation + Fabricate + "a high skill ranking in Craft: Alchemy" = Assloads of Healing Salves (Tome & Blood) for dirt cheap "mass Heal spell" effects for you and your party.

....

Believe you me, Arcane Disciple for the Heal Domain with a WIS of 14 is not worth it for your character. Wizards do just fine as they are in the healing category. The problem is that you guys don't have Restoration or Resurrection spells ...

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
schbob
01-11-05, 08:27 PM yeaps also what snow said.... i forgot about those.... i know for summon nature's ally 4 (the wis caster ones) you can summon a unicorn which can cast:

cure light 3x 1d8+5 1st lvl spell
cure mod 1x 2d8+5 2nd lvl spell
neutralize poison 1x 4th lvl spell

basically it already has a 4th level spell that comes with it that i always have memorized normally, so why not just memorize SN 4, get the poison and 3 heals on top of it that are casted by someone else, freeing up 3 rounds

I think someone did a listing for Summon nature's ally and Summon monster with the creatures and what spells they could cast etc, did a search but can't find it atm. Anyone have the link in favorites?

Have alter self and polymorph but not that one ><

And for UMD, for a wand it's a flat dc20, for a scroll dc20+caster level.
charlesatan
01-11-05, 08:28 PM Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes.

1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants.

Also remember that Guardinals have the lay on hands ability (except their full hit points) so they can provide healing as well. Summon Monster VII enables you to summon a guardinal and that can come in handy.
Angrillori
01-11-05, 08:38 PM Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes.

1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants.

You rock!

Thanks a million! I Imagine there's a thread to that effect here somewhere too. <me rushes off to do a search>

Edit to add:
Not a lot of help on the search. Got a good list of possible summons, looks like I'll have to invest in 3.5 MM's to determine their abilities though.

Will I have to use rather high level summons for any decent healing?

2. Minor Creation + Fabricate + "a high skill ranking in Craft: Alchemy" = Assloads of Healing Salves (Tome & Blood) for dirt cheap "mass Heal spell" effects for you and your party.

Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to look in on this one too. But I imagine the SM is going to be a method of choice!

Edited to also add:
Just thought of this, could we save the salves, or would they only have the same duration as the minor creation ingredients? (IIRC minor creation doesn't make anything permanently, but I could be wrong.)

....

Believe you me, Arcane Disciple for the Heal Domain with a WIS of 14 is not worth it for your character. Wizards do just fine as they are in the healing category. The problem is that you guys don't have Restoration or Resurrection spells ...

Yeah. That's been a bear. The lack of restoration scares me. And (again I don't have the books here) I don't think even Arcane Disciple would have helped that. UMD + scrolls and wands, I guess. Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?) +3 Cha, +3 Persuasion Circlet puts me at a 21 + 1D20=pretty good chance of using even higher level scrolls.

Thanks a million Snow!
Angrillori
01-11-05, 09:01 PM I think someone did a listing for Summon nature's ally and Summon monster with the creatures and what spells they could cast etc, did a search but can't find it atm. Anyone have the link in favorites?

Ditto the request! Couldn't find it myself, but that sure seems like something that would have been attempted here before!

And I could sure use it!
Eyeless Blond
01-11-05, 09:45 PM Yeah. That's been a bear. The lack of restoration scares me. And (again I don't have the books here) I don't think even Arcane Disciple would have helped that. UMD + scrolls and wands, I guess. Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?) +3 Cha, +3 Persuasion Circlet puts me at a 21 + 1D20=pretty good chance of using even higher level scrolls.
Simple answer: buy a wand of Lesser Restoration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Restoration_Lesser.html). Buy it as a Paladin wand, as caster level and spell level don't matter. These will be dirt cheap: as a Pal 1 caster level 2 (character level 4 /2 = minimum caster level 2) = 1500gp. A wand of Restoration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Restoration.html) is a bit more expensive, both because of the spell level and the material component--26,000gp--but may also be a good investment if your DM is undead-happy. Either way they're an easy DC 20 UMD check, which you already beat by default.
schbob
01-11-05, 10:49 PM Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?)

One of the best things about multiclassing read PHB page 59. Under multiclassing and skills, and the example there.

Basically, as soon as you get a skill as a class skill, it remains a class skill reguardless of what other classes you take.
Angrillori
01-12-05, 11:41 AM So then, if I'm not to take Arcane Disciple, am I wrong in thinking that Arcane Mastery is the next best bet?

I mean beating SR 24 without a roll seems a pretty easy choice. My only conundrum is, would Greater Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus Ench. be better? Arcane Mastery helps me at anything 24 or less, but anything with SR > 24 would make it useless and would make GSP the better choice. More importantly, on anything with no SR at all GSF would be the preferred choice.

Decisions, decisions...
Eyeless Blond
01-12-05, 11:53 AM One of the best things about multiclassing read PHB page 59. Under multiclassing and skills, and the example there.

Basically, as soon as you get a skill as a class skill, it remains a class skill reguardless of what other classes you take.
Er, not exactly. If that were true, then there'd be no need for the Able Learner feat, would there? :) You still have to pay 2 skill points to buy one rank of a cross-class skill; that only changes if you buy the feat in Races of Destiny that lets you buy them 1 for 1. The only difference is that the skill remains a class skill only for purposes of max ranks.
Angrillori
01-12-05, 02:40 PM Since UMD is just a skill, is there anything preventing me from making an item of +5 or +10 UMD?

That would definitely cinch it. Add +X UMD to an item I have, then feel free to use cleric/paladin/whetever items almost automatically (definitely automatically for wands).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angrillori 01-10-05, 09:10 PM	I'm currently playing a lvl 11 Human Wizard--Enchantment Specialist(6Wiz/1Mindbender/3Loremaster/1Wayfarer Guide actually). At the end of our last session, the DM told us we all had earned our next level. My intention was to start taking fatespinner levels to get the 4 with +1 caster/spell level. That aside, we've had enough dealings with the local temple of Pelor that it would be appropriate in character to take the Arcane Disciple feat and take the healing domain. Since our party is currently Cleric-less, we could benefit from the healing ability. (The party make-up includes myself, a 1/2ling Rogue/Ftr/InvisibleBlade/MasterThrower, a straight Barbarian that isn't often there, and my Cohort, a Wizard similar to my character, and some as-yet-unknown PC played by a guy who will start with the group soon in the coming weeks.) If I don't take Arcane Disciple, other choices seem to be: Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, (We seem to fight a lot of magic users, and my enchantment spells seem pretty well useless with the abundance of high will-saves.) or Arcane Mastery. (This just seems too good to pass up. Take 10 on spell penetration tests? Lvl 12 + 10 + 2 (Spell penetration Feat) would let me automatically bypass any SR < 24.) I'm thinking that with the Arcane Disciple healing spells available, my character would gain versatility, and at lvl 15 could take the "Spontaneous Healer" feat and really be useful. (Does Spontaneous Healer require a Turn Undead use like Domian Spontanaeity does?) Thanks for the advice!
charlesatan 01-10-05, 09:37 PM	Just remember that Arcane Disciple uses is limited: you can only prepare one spell from that domain per spell level; you also have to have a good Wisdom score in order to be able to cast those spells in the first place. You can take Spontaneous Healer, but it'll give you only a limited advantage since you only get to "spontaneously" cast a spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. Honestly, Arcane Disciple in your case may give you added versatility, but you still won't end up healing the whole party enough times, and you're sacrificing offensive ability for defensive ability. And you have to have a high Wisdom score as well.
wtharp2 01-10-05, 11:33 PM	(Please be kind -- this is my first post here...) If you take Arcane Disciple and take Healing as your domain, you don't actually have to "carry" those healing spells. What you could do, once the healing spells were on your list, is buy and carry wands of healing. Just a thought... [insert inane tagline here]
Angrillori 01-11-05, 01:24 PM	Just remember that Arcane Disciple uses is limited: you can only prepare one spell from that domain per spell level; you also have to have a good Wisdom score in order to be able to cast those spells in the first place. You can take Spontaneous Healer, but it'll give you only a limited advantage since you only get to "spontaneously" cast a spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. Honestly, Arcane Disciple in your case may give you added versatility, but you still won't end up healing the whole party enough times, and you're sacrificing offensive ability for defensive ability. And you have to have a high Wisdom score as well. Yeah and that's the dilemma I'm having trouble with. I've got a natural 14 wis, and could make or buy a + wis item if need be. It's just been a bit of a pain being a cleric-less group. I had forgotten about the "spontaneous" cap, that kind of lowers the desirability on that item. In that case I'd rather go with the Arcane Mastery or whichever next time a feat slot opens up. But, Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass or Heal, even once per day just would seem so useful. I was re-reading the feat description yesterday though--as a Wizard, I would still need to learn those spells. That's probably only going to happen at level up. (Which other wizards will have Cure Moderate Wounds in their spellbooks? How many arcane scrolls of CLW will I find?) Even with Collegiate Trained, it would be a while before I had all the domain spells even available. Or am I reading that wrong?
schbob 01-11-05, 03:45 PM	I know big heals would be nice, but you said you have a rogue. Use magic device + wand of cure light wounds = 50 x 1d8+1 heals for 750gold, same goes for buying scrolls. But that is more of an after battle heal method like I said big heals would be nice, this just saves downtime. Or someone take leadership and get a cleric follower. heals, removes, restorations etc are always nice to have I dunno if these were already said or not, I was to lazy to read ~ Considering you have no healers at all /boggles... you're dm would more than likely allow you to take leadership and a healer follower, just so he can throw real stuff at you. Like ability damage, enervation, undead etc etc. So put the feat to actual use, get leadership and have yourself a walking negator. Personally I love playing clerics or shamans and would never play anything else, I love the power they have..... negation.... being able to say no that didn't happen is..... godly to say the least.
Angrillori 01-11-05, 05:47 PM	I dunno if these were already said or not, I was to lazy to read ~ Considering you have no healers at all /boggles... you're dm would more than likely allow you to take leadership and a healer follower, just so he can throw real stuff at you. Like ability damage, enervation, undead etc etc. So put the feat to actual use, get leadership and have yourself a walking negator. I don't have my books with me at the moment, so I'm not sure whether or not the leadership feat can be taken twice. Unfortunately I have taken it once already, and have a Wizard-type cohort at the moment. If we were going to go the route of using leadership to bring a cleric into the mix I'd have to convince someone else to do so. I was toying with the idea of swapping-out my cohort for a cleric (There would have been in-game reasons--we'll be transferring to a different world, giving me the opportunity to leave my Wiz/Lor cohort behind to continue to lead the school I founded and care for the lower level followers. Then I would have the opportunity to take a Cleric we've made friends with in the temple of Pelor ostensibly to allow him to evangelize a whole new world.) but with a couple other developments, it looks like that won't happen. I don't know if I can get either other player to take leadership for a cleric follower. I'm kind of hoping the new guy might take a cleric. Oh well. And unfortunately rogue UMD might be out, because the rogue is primarily a combat baddie: Rog3/Ftr2/InvisBlade5/MasterThrower2(3 after this level up). He doesn't have, if I remember right, a lot of skill points devoted to UMD. But wait! My character does have 13 ranks in UMD gained during the Loremaster levels, that plus +3 Cha bonus, and +3 from a Circlet of Persuasion might allow him to be the Clerical wand-user. Hey, thanks! That might just work! Personally I love playing clerics or shamans and would never play anything else, I love the power they have..... negation.... being able to say no that didn't happen is..... godly to say the least. Yeah. I've grown increasingly jealous the more I read about Clerics. It seems they're rather out-powering Wizards, and just as, if not more, versatile. Esp. now that they've got some nice direct damage, good buffs, etc.
UMiskatonic 01-11-05, 06:22 PM	Easy solution...fire your cohort. The leadership feat gives you the right to have a cohort, but the first cohort you get is in no way permanent. Dump him, and recruit a cleric. Hey, recruit a radiant servant of Pelor while you're at it. I know what you are thinking. My existing wizard cohort is cool, and can do all these nifty things, and, and, and,... Whatever he could do, you can do better. Seriously. Because you are a higher level wizard than he is. Your new cohort will also be cool, and will also do nifty things, and he'll be able to turn undead and heal the entire party. I think after you try it, you'll be glad you did. This will give your party the iconic four set-up that adventures are designed for. It allows the new player to be whatever he wants, which should help him to keep attending games. It allows you to take your next feat, and become a better wizard with it. And since he's YOUR cohort, it guarantees that you will be as protected as a cleric can make you. (I'd encourage the rogue to take UMD anyway. If someone paralyzes the cleric, you need someone to unfreeze him) Cheers, Umiskatonic
Snow Savant 01-11-05, 06:31 PM	Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes. 1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants. 2. Minor Creation + Fabricate + "a high skill ranking in Craft: Alchemy" = Assloads of Healing Salves (Tome & Blood) for dirt cheap "mass Heal spell" effects for you and your party. .... Believe you me, Arcane Disciple for the Heal Domain with a WIS of 14 is not worth it for your character. Wizards do just fine as they are in the healing category. The problem is that you guys don't have Restoration or Resurrection spells ... XO, Snow :cloud9:
schbob 01-11-05, 08:27 PM	yeaps also what snow said.... i forgot about those.... i know for summon nature's ally 4 (the wis caster ones) you can summon a unicorn which can cast: cure light 3x 1d8+5 1st lvl spell cure mod 1x 2d8+5 2nd lvl spell neutralize poison 1x 4th lvl spell basically it already has a 4th level spell that comes with it that i always have memorized normally, so why not just memorize SN 4, get the poison and 3 heals on top of it that are casted by someone else, freeing up 3 rounds I think someone did a listing for Summon nature's ally and Summon monster with the creatures and what spells they could cast etc, did a search but can't find it atm. Anyone have the link in favorites? Have alter self and polymorph but not that one >< And for UMD, for a wand it's a flat dc20, for a scroll dc20+caster level.
charlesatan 01-11-05, 08:28 PM	Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes. 1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants. Also remember that Guardinals have the lay on hands ability (except their full hit points) so they can provide healing as well. Summon Monster VII enables you to summon a guardinal and that can come in handy.
Angrillori 01-11-05, 08:38 PM	Either you or your Wizard cohort can get healing by the tonnes. 1. Summon Monster spells = Read the list. Summon the Good Outsiders with the best array of healing, curative, and fix-it spells or (Sp). Besides healing, most of them have other good utility functions or are also good combatants. You rock! Thanks a million! I Imagine there's a thread to that effect here somewhere too. <me rushes off to do a search> Edit to add: Not a lot of help on the search. Got a good list of possible summons, looks like I'll have to invest in 3.5 MM's to determine their abilities though. Will I have to use rather high level summons for any decent healing? 2. Minor Creation + Fabricate + "a high skill ranking in Craft: Alchemy" = Assloads of Healing Salves (Tome & Blood) for dirt cheap "mass Heal spell" effects for you and your party. Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to look in on this one too. But I imagine the SM is going to be a method of choice! Edited to also add: Just thought of this, could we save the salves, or would they only have the same duration as the minor creation ingredients? (IIRC minor creation doesn't make anything permanently, but I could be wrong.) .... Believe you me, Arcane Disciple for the Heal Domain with a WIS of 14 is not worth it for your character. Wizards do just fine as they are in the healing category. The problem is that you guys don't have Restoration or Resurrection spells ... Yeah. That's been a bear. The lack of restoration scares me. And (again I don't have the books here) I don't think even Arcane Disciple would have helped that. UMD + scrolls and wands, I guess. Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?) +3 Cha, +3 Persuasion Circlet puts me at a 21 + 1D20=pretty good chance of using even higher level scrolls. Thanks a million Snow!
Angrillori 01-11-05, 09:01 PM	I think someone did a listing for Summon nature's ally and Summon monster with the creatures and what spells they could cast etc, did a search but can't find it atm. Anyone have the link in favorites? Ditto the request! Couldn't find it myself, but that sure seems like something that would have been attempted here before! And I could sure use it!
Eyeless Blond 01-11-05, 09:45 PM	Yeah. That's been a bear. The lack of restoration scares me. And (again I don't have the books here) I don't think even Arcane Disciple would have helped that. UMD + scrolls and wands, I guess. Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?) +3 Cha, +3 Persuasion Circlet puts me at a 21 + 1D20=pretty good chance of using even higher level scrolls. Simple answer: buy a wand of Lesser Restoration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Restoration_Lesser.html). Buy it as a Paladin wand, as caster level and spell level don't matter. These will be dirt cheap: as a Pal 1 caster level 2 (character level 4 /2 = minimum caster level 2) = 1500gp. A wand of Restoration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Restoration.html) is a bit more expensive, both because of the spell level and the material component--26,000gp--but may also be a good investment if your DM is undead-happy. Either way they're an easy DC 20 UMD check, which you already beat by default.
schbob 01-11-05, 10:49 PM	Next level I should have enough ranks to bump UMD up to 16 ranks even cross class. (Max ranks are still 'level +3' because of the Loremaster levels, right?) One of the best things about multiclassing read PHB page 59. Under multiclassing and skills, and the example there. Basically, as soon as you get a skill as a class skill, it remains a class skill reguardless of what other classes you take.
Angrillori 01-12-05, 11:41 AM	So then, if I'm not to take Arcane Disciple, am I wrong in thinking that Arcane Mastery is the next best bet? I mean beating SR 24 without a roll seems a pretty easy choice. My only conundrum is, would Greater Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus Ench. be better? Arcane Mastery helps me at anything 24 or less, but anything with SR > 24 would make it useless and would make GSP the better choice. More importantly, on anything with no SR at all GSF would be the preferred choice. Decisions, decisions...
Eyeless Blond 01-12-05, 11:53 AM	One of the best things about multiclassing read PHB page 59. Under multiclassing and skills, and the example there. Basically, as soon as you get a skill as a class skill, it remains a class skill reguardless of what other classes you take. Er, not exactly. If that were true, then there'd be no need for the Able Learner feat, would there? :) You still have to pay 2 skill points to buy one rank of a cross-class skill; that only changes if you buy the feat in Races of Destiny that lets you buy them 1 for 1. The only difference is that the skill remains a class skill only for purposes of max ranks.
Angrillori 01-12-05, 02:40 PM	Since UMD is just a skill, is there anything preventing me from making an item of +5 or +10 UMD? That would definitely cinch it. Add +X UMD to an item I have, then feel free to use cleric/paladin/whetever items almost automatically (definitely automatically for wands).