Arcane Exorcist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Exorcist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aerk
02-28-04, 11:38 PM Please help with optimizing this Battle Sorcerer varient build, adapted from LordShade's build in the Beauty of UA (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182180).

The basic idea is an Arcane Exorcist:

Race: Human
Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 3/Witch Hunter 2/Sacred Exorcist 6
BaB +16, CL 18, Exorcism Domain, Divine Feats, other goodies-

I want to optimize this character in combat; specifically, what feats/spell combinations should I look for, assuming I will end up using a +10 weapon and a twilight mithral large shield.

Should I worry about True Strike/Power Attack? Divine Might? (note: eventual +12 cha modifier, so I want to take advantage of that!)

Would the 20' movement of the twilight mithral full plate be fine? Can speed wearing full plate be increased somehow? (If if not, what is good besides the standard Spellsword. 2 levels in SE to be caster level 19?)

The campaign will extend into the epic levels, but is starting a level 6.
LordShade
02-29-04, 12:13 PM I would definitely get divine might and power attack, and also arcane strike to boost your melee damage. Moreover I think you can improve your combat speed using haste and expeditious retreat, so I think the fullplate is OK.

Your other feats go to Track, Iron Will, and Dodge. That leaves you with one feat - I might go with a casting oriented feat useful for sorcerers. Don't take energy affinity as you can basically get its effects through judicious spell selection. Persistent could be useful if you wanted to keep detect thoughts on all day, or just go with another combat feat.
Aerk
02-29-04, 09:20 PM We will be using 3.5 whenever available, so Divine Shield from CW looks very good; might as well put the Extra Turning feats from SE to work.

Feats work out to 9 total (2 at first level, 6 from level progression, 1 fighter bonus/metamagic from Spellsword);

Key:
Each hyphen is a level
BS = Battle Sorcerer
DS = Dragonslayer
SS = Spellsword
DH = Demon Hunter, exactly the same as Witch Hunter, flavor changed for FRCS

(Feat)(Dodge) BS---(Iron Will)---(Arcane Strike)-- | DS-(Power Attack) | SS--(Bonus Feat)-(Track) | DH-- | SE -(Divine Shield)---(Divine Might)--

The question here is, what should be the Fighter Bonus/Metamagic granted by SS? If we are using FRCS, spellcasting prodigy as the human bonus feat? Improved initiative?

Thanks for your help so far.
LordMacbeth
02-29-04, 10:20 PM I've discovered, though much tribulation, that there arn't very many Arcane PRCs that offer lerical BAB. Besides the obvious Sacred Exorcist and Ramuthari Battlemage, there are less than a half dozen others that offer full caster progression (or close). And of those, I have yet to find one you can join before level 5. The reason for my searching is simple, if someone could find a PRC that you could join before 4th level, you could go:

Wiz-Sroc4/PRC4/DraS1/Sps1/EK10 with +17BAB/19 Caster Levels.

This is the stuff dreams are made of.......
LordShade
02-29-04, 10:48 PM Why do you want divine shield? I assumed you would use a two-handed weapon so you could unhand one hand in order to cast spells.

I wouldn't take spellcasting prodigy, the rumor is that it's going to be nerfed.

Assuming you drop divine shield, that gives you two combat feats to work with, potentially. You may just want to take a look at some of the useful combos and decide what you want to use.

For instance, dodge+combat reflexes+karmic strike could be very useful when you're buffed by a stoneskin spell.
Aerk
03-01-04, 01:03 AM The character has what amounts to a 52 point-buy (Extremely high stats, rolled using the 4d6 drop the lowest method- in front of the DM no less.)

18 starting Charisma, +5 due to level advancement, +5 from a Manual (28 now), +6 from item (34). +12 cha modifier, which is fun with Kami's grace giving the build very nice saves.

Basically, assuming fully enchanted armor (+5 twilight mithral full plate, +3 dex bonus, +5 twilight mithral large shield, +5 ring of protection), the character can get an AC of 50 at 20th level. Even monsters are going to have a hard time hitting that, and with a +12 charisma modifier and Extra Turning x2 from SE, you can use it 23 times a day.

Yeah, the 'sword and board' casting method is a good question. I think I will use Simbul's Spell Sequencer to cast spells in combat, and just have the sword sheated while out of it.

Power attack is still a viable option, due to all of the pluses to hit from Smite, Arcane Strike, True Strike, etc, as well as the +16 BaB. The +7 AC (+19 with Divine Shield), and +4 worth of other goodies associated with a shield makes it highly desirable in my mind.
LordShade
03-01-04, 01:33 AM In that case consider using a buckler. I think you take a -1 to hit with a buckler if you have a 2-handed weapon, but still -

1. you gain the versatility of being armed at all times, and being able to cast at all times. the entire point of being a fighter/mage.

2. You still get your mad defense bonuses with divine shield (may need to look this one up... i'm not 100% familiar with the rules for bucklers in 3.5)

3. You'll still gain you +4 worth of bonuses from a magical shield.

4. If using a 2-handed weapon, you gain more damage from power attack. Useful for the arcane strike+true strike+divine might+PA combo.

If you are going to take 3 levels of spellsword in the build, I would actually drop dragonslayer entirely and take more levels of sacred Exorcist. Remember that Witch Hunter gives proficiency in all weapons and armor (many people don't know this). Dropping Dragonslayer will save you two feats, and the special abilities are not all that great anyway. Try this build instead:

Battlesorc7/WH2/Spellsword3/SE8

Still 18 caster levels and 16 BAB. There is no reason to take the 8th level of battlesorc when you can take more SE levels without losing BAB. WH requires +5 BAB and 10 ranks of arcana, which you meet by level 7 of battlesorc. Spellsword has access to all knowledge skills, so you can easily get 7 ranks of knowledge (planes) during your 3 SS levels if you're a human with 10 int. Likewise, a human with 10 int gets 5sp/level during the 2 WH levels, which gets you all the ranks you need for the knowledge (religion) requirement (a class skill for WH).

With this build -

1. You waste no skill points cross-classing.
2. You enter your prestige classes earlier.
3. You save 2 feats required to enter dragonslayer.
4. You lose +1 dmg vs. dragons and aura of courage, but you gain chosen foe +1 more (the extra +1 to outsiders or undead is equal to the +1 vs. dragons, so these cancel out) and +1 dispel/week. The extra dispel is not as good as aura of courage, but keep in mind you save 2 feats. Besides, one more level of WH gets you aura of courage also (in epic levels).

So now your feat layout looks like:
(8 general feats+1 fighter or metamagic feat + x2 extra turning)

Track, Power Attack, Divine Might, Arcane Strike, Divine Shield, Extra Turning x2, four open feats.

With four open feats you can pretty much do anything.
LordShade
03-01-04, 01:39 AM Actually, with 4 feats free, you can go hardcore sword n' board if that's what you want to do.

TWF, Shield Bash, the whole shebang. Go look up one of those fighter threads and pick out what you like.

Dropping Dragonslayer! I've really outdone myself this time. ;)
cellardweller
03-01-04, 02:40 AM The more I see that DS1 the more it grates on me - it just doesn't fit thematically with anything. Much nicer synergy with witch hunter from both a mechanical and character perspective. Kudos.
Aerk
03-01-04, 02:31 PM Wow, that is impressive LordShade. Nice rework, I had not even noticed that Witch Hunter granted all martial/armor proficiency.

For our campaign, we have changed Witch Hunter into Demon Hunter (Different flavor text, exact same PrC), so the overall flavor of the build works very nicely.

Battlesorc7/WH2/Spellsword3/SE8 it is :)

However, from the SRD:
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

If you use a two-handed weapon, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.
LordShade
03-01-04, 06:03 PM Originally posted by cellardweller
The more I see that DS1 the more it grates on me - it just doesn't fit thematically with anything.

Agreed. I don't really like the DS1 dip either. Not only does it not mesh well conceptually with anything, but it also requires you to burn 2 feats that you don't really need for anything else (in most builds that use dragonslayer).

Aerk - Yeah, disregard what I said about using a two-handed weapon. Since you have four open feats you have sufficient versatility to take advantage of the sword+shield fighting style. Grab a longsword, as large a shield as your ASF will allow, TWF, shield bash, and divine shield, and start hammering away at everyone that tries to mess with you.
Aerk
03-02-04, 03:08 AM Again, thanks for the help:

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

"You lose its AC bonus until your next action"- so, if I go TWF with a shield and short sword, it ends up meaning you sacrafice the AC bonus anyway :| (Unless I am reading this incorrectly). Edit: Improved Shield Bash lets you keep the AC bonus, and appearently Improved Buckler Defense lets you keep your AC as well if you use a weapon in your off-hand. All of a sudden, power attacking +5 Adamantium Greatsword with a buckler strapped on looks better and better.

However, can spikes be added to a buckler? Furthermore, if you have a +5 shield with the spikes enchanted to be +5 defending, does that mean you can have a shield that grants +10 AC? Are the spikes and the shield considered seperate, or does the max +10 enhancement bonus still apply?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aerk 02-28-04, 11:38 PM	Please help with optimizing this Battle Sorcerer varient build, adapted from LordShade's build in the Beauty of UA (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182180). The basic idea is an Arcane Exorcist: Race: Human Battle Sorcerer 8/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 3/Witch Hunter 2/Sacred Exorcist 6 BaB +16, CL 18, Exorcism Domain, Divine Feats, other goodies- I want to optimize this character in combat; specifically, what feats/spell combinations should I look for, assuming I will end up using a +10 weapon and a twilight mithral large shield. Should I worry about True Strike/Power Attack? Divine Might? (note: eventual +12 cha modifier, so I want to take advantage of that!) Would the 20' movement of the twilight mithral full plate be fine? Can speed wearing full plate be increased somehow? (If if not, what is good besides the standard Spellsword. 2 levels in SE to be caster level 19?) The campaign will extend into the epic levels, but is starting a level 6.
LordShade 02-29-04, 12:13 PM	I would definitely get divine might and power attack, and also arcane strike to boost your melee damage. Moreover I think you can improve your combat speed using haste and expeditious retreat, so I think the fullplate is OK. Your other feats go to Track, Iron Will, and Dodge. That leaves you with one feat - I might go with a casting oriented feat useful for sorcerers. Don't take energy affinity as you can basically get its effects through judicious spell selection. Persistent could be useful if you wanted to keep detect thoughts on all day, or just go with another combat feat.
Aerk 02-29-04, 09:20 PM	We will be using 3.5 whenever available, so Divine Shield from CW looks very good; might as well put the Extra Turning feats from SE to work. Feats work out to 9 total (2 at first level, 6 from level progression, 1 fighter bonus/metamagic from Spellsword); Key: Each hyphen is a level BS = Battle Sorcerer DS = Dragonslayer SS = Spellsword DH = Demon Hunter, exactly the same as Witch Hunter, flavor changed for FRCS (Feat)(Dodge) BS---(Iron Will)---(Arcane Strike)-- \| DS-(Power Attack) \| SS--(Bonus Feat)-(Track) \| DH-- \| SE -(Divine Shield)---(Divine Might)-- The question here is, what should be the Fighter Bonus/Metamagic granted by SS? If we are using FRCS, spellcasting prodigy as the human bonus feat? Improved initiative? Thanks for your help so far.
LordMacbeth 02-29-04, 10:20 PM	I've discovered, though much tribulation, that there arn't very many Arcane PRCs that offer lerical BAB. Besides the obvious Sacred Exorcist and Ramuthari Battlemage, there are less than a half dozen others that offer full caster progression (or close). And of those, I have yet to find one you can join before level 5. The reason for my searching is simple, if someone could find a PRC that you could join before 4th level, you could go: Wiz-Sroc4/PRC4/DraS1/Sps1/EK10 with +17BAB/19 Caster Levels. This is the stuff dreams are made of.......
LordShade 02-29-04, 10:48 PM	Why do you want divine shield? I assumed you would use a two-handed weapon so you could unhand one hand in order to cast spells. I wouldn't take spellcasting prodigy, the rumor is that it's going to be nerfed. Assuming you drop divine shield, that gives you two combat feats to work with, potentially. You may just want to take a look at some of the useful combos and decide what you want to use. For instance, dodge+combat reflexes+karmic strike could be very useful when you're buffed by a stoneskin spell.
Aerk 03-01-04, 01:03 AM	The character has what amounts to a 52 point-buy (Extremely high stats, rolled using the 4d6 drop the lowest method- in front of the DM no less.) 18 starting Charisma, +5 due to level advancement, +5 from a Manual (28 now), +6 from item (34). +12 cha modifier, which is fun with Kami's grace giving the build very nice saves. Basically, assuming fully enchanted armor (+5 twilight mithral full plate, +3 dex bonus, +5 twilight mithral large shield, +5 ring of protection), the character can get an AC of 50 at 20th level. Even monsters are going to have a hard time hitting that, and with a +12 charisma modifier and Extra Turning x2 from SE, you can use it 23 times a day. Yeah, the 'sword and board' casting method is a good question. I think I will use Simbul's Spell Sequencer to cast spells in combat, and just have the sword sheated while out of it. Power attack is still a viable option, due to all of the pluses to hit from Smite, Arcane Strike, True Strike, etc, as well as the +16 BaB. The +7 AC (+19 with Divine Shield), and +4 worth of other goodies associated with a shield makes it highly desirable in my mind.
LordShade 03-01-04, 01:33 AM	In that case consider using a buckler. I think you take a -1 to hit with a buckler if you have a 2-handed weapon, but still - 1. you gain the versatility of being armed at all times, and being able to cast at all times. the entire point of being a fighter/mage. 2. You still get your mad defense bonuses with divine shield (may need to look this one up... i'm not 100% familiar with the rules for bucklers in 3.5) 3. You'll still gain you +4 worth of bonuses from a magical shield. 4. If using a 2-handed weapon, you gain more damage from power attack. Useful for the arcane strike+true strike+divine might+PA combo. If you are going to take 3 levels of spellsword in the build, I would actually drop dragonslayer entirely and take more levels of sacred Exorcist. Remember that Witch Hunter gives proficiency in all weapons and armor (many people don't know this). Dropping Dragonslayer will save you two feats, and the special abilities are not all that great anyway. Try this build instead: Battlesorc7/WH2/Spellsword3/SE8 Still 18 caster levels and 16 BAB. There is no reason to take the 8th level of battlesorc when you can take more SE levels without losing BAB. WH requires +5 BAB and 10 ranks of arcana, which you meet by level 7 of battlesorc. Spellsword has access to all knowledge skills, so you can easily get 7 ranks of knowledge (planes) during your 3 SS levels if you're a human with 10 int. Likewise, a human with 10 int gets 5sp/level during the 2 WH levels, which gets you all the ranks you need for the knowledge (religion) requirement (a class skill for WH). With this build - 1. You waste no skill points cross-classing. 2. You enter your prestige classes earlier. 3. You save 2 feats required to enter dragonslayer. 4. You lose +1 dmg vs. dragons and aura of courage, but you gain chosen foe +1 more (the extra +1 to outsiders or undead is equal to the +1 vs. dragons, so these cancel out) and +1 dispel/week. The extra dispel is not as good as aura of courage, but keep in mind you save 2 feats. Besides, one more level of WH gets you aura of courage also (in epic levels). So now your feat layout looks like: (8 general feats+1 fighter or metamagic feat + x2 extra turning) Track, Power Attack, Divine Might, Arcane Strike, Divine Shield, Extra Turning x2, four open feats. With four open feats you can pretty much do anything.
LordShade 03-01-04, 01:39 AM	Actually, with 4 feats free, you can go hardcore sword n' board if that's what you want to do. TWF, Shield Bash, the whole shebang. Go look up one of those fighter threads and pick out what you like. Dropping Dragonslayer! I've really outdone myself this time. ;)
cellardweller 03-01-04, 02:40 AM	The more I see that DS1 the more it grates on me - it just doesn't fit thematically with anything. Much nicer synergy with witch hunter from both a mechanical and character perspective. Kudos.
Aerk 03-01-04, 02:31 PM	Wow, that is impressive LordShade. Nice rework, I had not even noticed that Witch Hunter granted all martial/armor proficiency. For our campaign, we have changed Witch Hunter into Demon Hunter (Different flavor text, exact same PrC), so the overall flavor of the build works very nicely. Battlesorc7/WH2/Spellsword3/SE8 it is :) However, from the SRD: Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. You can’t bash someone with a buckler. If you use a two-handed weapon, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.
LordShade 03-01-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by cellardweller The more I see that DS1 the more it grates on me - it just doesn't fit thematically with anything. Agreed. I don't really like the DS1 dip either. Not only does it not mesh well conceptually with anything, but it also requires you to burn 2 feats that you don't really need for anything else (in most builds that use dragonslayer). Aerk - Yeah, disregard what I said about using a two-handed weapon. Since you have four open feats you have sufficient versatility to take advantage of the sword+shield fighting style. Grab a longsword, as large a shield as your ASF will allow, TWF, shield bash, and divine shield, and start hammering away at everyone that tries to mess with you.
Aerk 03-02-04, 03:08 AM	Again, thanks for the help: Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. "You lose its AC bonus until your next action"- so, if I go TWF with a shield and short sword, it ends up meaning you sacrafice the AC bonus anyway :\| (Unless I am reading this incorrectly). Edit: Improved Shield Bash lets you keep the AC bonus, and appearently Improved Buckler Defense lets you keep your AC as well if you use a weapon in your off-hand. All of a sudden, power attacking +5 Adamantium Greatsword with a buckler strapped on looks better and better. However, can spikes be added to a buckler? Furthermore, if you have a +5 shield with the spikes enchanted to be +5 defending, does that mean you can have a shield that grants +10 AC? Are the spikes and the shield considered seperate, or does the max +10 enhancement bonus still apply?