Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 12:37 PM	So, Arcane Fusion! Sorcerer-only spell. That is, it's only on the sorcerer list. Since when has that ever stopped us? Those people who play with a liberal interpretation of Extra Spell can use it to get Arcane Fusion for their arcanist... hopefully, their wizard. After all, the spell specifies it only produces sorcerer spells--that is, spells on the sorcerer list. The wizard, who shares a spell list, is envious. Of course, I don't believe that Extra Spell can or should be used that way; I wouldn't do it as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. That's far from the only way of getting a spell on your spell list, though. The two most obvious alternatives to me are the classes with Spell Research abilities that I'm familiar with: the Recaster and the Wyrm Wizard. The Recaster is superior, because taking all 5 levels of it is worthwhile (you could even snag both Arcane Fusion spells with its two Spell Research abilities, if you space the levels right); it's a great class. Of course, if you're not a changeling wizard in Eberron, you're right out of luck, which leaves the Wyrm Wizard. Five levels lose you a caster level, but get you both Arcane Fusion spells and the other goodies of the Recaster class. Two levels of Wyrm Wizard lose you a caster level, and get you one of the Arcane Fusion spells. In any case, the point is the result: a wizard who knows Arcane Fusion. And when he casts it, Arcane Fusion can produce any two spells on the sorcerer list (which the wizard, with a couple of exceptions, shares) that he knows. He doesn't need to have them prepared, he just has to know them, and wizards can know a lot of spells. Use a tight definition of "know" and this doesn't work, but it just says "know", it doesn't specify how. Suddenly the wizard has unparallelled versatility. He casts Arcane Fusion and cast any first and fourth-level spells that he knows; whatever the situation demands. That's the kind of flexibility that's worth a caster level... especially if the level was worth losing already (as with Recaster). Of course, if you can't get Wyrm Wizard or Recaster, there's the Ultimate Magus. A wizard/sorcerer/Ultimate Magus *knows* a lot of sorcerer spells via his wizard progression, because they're "sor/wiz" spells. Thus, when he casts Arcane Fusion with his sorcerer spell slots, he can use it to produce any sorcerer spell he knows, whether he learned it as a sorcerer or as a wizard; same as the above trick, except the Ultimate Magus got his Arcane Fusion spell fairly. To sum up: if a wizard (or other preparatory spellcaster who uses the sor/wiz spell list) learns Arcane Fusion (whether by taking sorcerer levels, Ultimate Magus levels, a class that lets him add spells to his spell list, et cetera), he can use it to cast any spells he knows--which, for a preparatory spellcaster like a wizard, is usually a lot. Arcane Fusion suddenly offers the wizard a whole lot more flexibility than it does a sorcerer.
Phoenix00 11-02-06, 12:50 PM	Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 6 and learn Arcane Fusion with your Sublime Chord Casting. If your DM says you can't learn a "Sorc only" list with your Sublime Chord (Which grants knowledge of "Sorc/Wizard" spells) you can then do Duskblade 13/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Recaster 5 or you can go Duskblade 13/Chameleon 7 Now imagine the possibilities of Arcane Fusion which you can use with your Arcane Channeling Full Attack.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 12:53 PM	Ah, yes, I forgot Chameleon. It wouldn't work with the Duskblade, though. Arcane Channeling (and the full-attack version of the same) requires the channeled spell to be a touch spell, which Arcane Fusion isn't.
WombleHunter 11-02-06, 12:57 PM	Nicely done, though personally I find the Ultimate Magus trick to be more suspect than the Recaster/Wyrm Wizard one.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 01:16 PM	Really? Hmm. I think it's legitimate; after all, spells X and Y--for example, Grease and Solid Fog--are sorcerer spells. They are also wizard spells. The sorcerer class--I just checked--actually says "a sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." It's the same spell list. If a wizard knows Grease and Solid Fog, he knows sorcerer spells (because he knows wizard spells, which are really sor/wiz spells). All Arcane Fusion specifies is that you know the spell; if an Ultimate Magus knows the spell by learning it as a wizard, he still knows it, so it works with Arcane Fusion.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-02-06, 01:28 PM	The only problem with this has always been the definition of "known." Undoubtedly the intention is the Spells Known Table which Wizards do not have. Its the same problem that versatile spell would have with a Dm. Wizards don't have a "Spells Known List". Of course, I think the idea of some spells being available to only wizards or to only Sorcerors is a crock, and ridiculous.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 01:32 PM	??? The definition of "known" is an issue? I didn't know that. Wizards don't have a table, because they don't have a fixed number of spells known; instead, they know whatever spells they learn.
SaintX 11-02-06, 03:19 PM	purely opinion: i dont think wizards know spells. with the exception of read magic and teh spell mastery feat. wizards dont actually know any spells. they know of spells. and they prepare them from their spellbooks into which they scribed these spells. but they do not know spells. a wizard without a spellbook is like a commoner with a good will save. again, just my opinion.
Vecna 11-02-06, 04:15 PM	purely opinion: i dont think wizards know spells. with the exception of read magic and teh spell mastery feat. wizards dont actually know any spells. they know of spells. and they prepare them from their spellbooks into which they scribed these spells. but they do not know spells. a wizard without a spellbook is like a commoner with a good will save. again, just my opinion. From D&D glossary, Known spell A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=K
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-02-06, 04:22 PM	AHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :schemes: :inlove: :dragon: :evillaugh Thank you Vecna!! There are no more Arguements! It works!!! It works!!!! Now the only question I have is if you can metamagic the spells from Arcane Fusion or not. I'd really really like you to be able to :D
SaintX 11-02-06, 04:26 PM	well alright then.:surrender
Phoenix00 11-02-06, 04:32 PM	From D&D glossary, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=K This is the technically RAW, else Wizards couldn't qualify for classes that require certain spells such as Mindbender and True Necro. Now alot of DMs will exercise Rule 0 in such cases since the spell was made exclusively for Sorcs and thus you should exercise the rules for Sorc spells known, and not the rules for Wizard's spells known. For there is very big difference between Wizard and Sorc spells known. The RAI was for this spell to only work with Sorcerers, thus the rules were written with the assumption of following the Sorc's spell known.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 05:02 PM	Hunh, wow. I was just getting convinced that I was wrong and you couldn't do it, since the wizard class entry just mentions spells learned and written in their spellbook, not spells known, but apparently it all works as per RAW (and, c'mon, we make DMM(Persistent) builds; if those get into real games, so can this). Edit: i don't think you can metamagic the spells Arcane Fusion casts for you; wizards need to prepare spells with metamagic, so that obviously doesn't work, and sorcerers have to modify the spell as they're casting it--and they're casting Arcane Fusion, not the spells Arcane Fusion is casting.
Grayson 11-02-06, 05:55 PM	Now alot of DMs will exercise Rule 0 in such cases since the spell was made exclusively for Sorcs and thus you should exercise the rules for Sorc spells known, and not the rules for Wizard's spells known. For there is very big difference between Wizard and Sorc spells known. The RAI was for this spell to only work with Sorcerers, thus the rules were written with the assumption of following the Sorc's spell known. I agree that by RAW, using AF to get a sorcerer-only spell is a bit iffy. Personally, I think having sorcerer-only spells is a crock of crap though. I'm not a fan of the sorcerer-only heritage feats either :P
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-02-06, 07:47 PM	A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast. you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) Hmm... By the above logic, I can make one heck of a caster. Sor1 / Wiz 4 / UM 10 / Any Full casting PrC for my sorcerer side, with Collegiate Wizard, Practiced Spellcaster feats. Casts like 13th level wizard, and 14th level sorcerer. Known spells for my sorcerer side only lvl: number of spells I can spontaneously cast known 0: 19 (18 int) 1: 12* 2: 12* 3: 11* 4: 11* 5: 10* 6: 8* 7: 7* *I devided my bonus +48 spells known evenly over all spell levels besides zero, it has it's own bonus +10. You can choose your own bonus +48 spells of any level devided as you see fit and a bonus +10 cantrips known if you want. There might be some loophole to gain higher sorcerer slots while leveling up the wizard side. You can just give it a few years and there will be another arcane/arcane PrC to do this all the way up to 9th level spells. Too bad no sane DM will accept the above build. Nor whould anyone posting never ever give up 9th level spells. But I just felt like giving a example so you see what I was leading to. Anyway, go on with your arguements about how to can use a sorcerer only spell as a wizard. I just wanted to post in these forums for once. That and point out how far LogicNinja's suggestion can go, and get a few people to read my sig. I wounder how many people well take offense to it here seeing how I point out how in my opinion following RAW is pointless and dumb in the forum section of RAW worshipers. While at the same time digging for suggestions on how to have 9th level spontaneously cast spells, and a spell list 5 miles long. Becuse somone will come along later and impove on my idea if it really is valid.
LogicNinja 11-02-06, 07:52 PM	Uh, in that context, "spell he knows" is spell he knows as a sorcerer, just like when prestige classes say 'class levels' they mean levels in the PrC unless they say otherwise. Similarily, if you're casting Arcane Fusion as a wizard, you'd have to use it to make two spells you know as a wizard. Not that that's an issue.
charlesatan 11-02-06, 09:11 PM	On a side note, go on a spellcasting boom by casting Greater Arcane Fusion and choosing Arcane Fusion as one of the spells... A Sorcerer 10/Incantatrix 10 can cast something like 16 spells in a round (at the cost of two 8th-level spell slots) when combined with Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic), Twin Spell, and Residual Magic.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-02-06, 11:24 PM	Uh, in that context, "spell he knows" is spell he knows as a sorcerer, just like when prestige classes say 'class levels' they mean levels in the PrC unless they say otherwise. Similarily, if you're casting Arcane Fusion as a wizard, you'd have to use it to make two spells you know as a wizard. Not that that's an issue. So "spell he knows" does not mean wizard spells. I accept your advice, and turn it on you. Lets take your words now and compaire them to your words before. To sum up: if a wizard (or other preparatory spellcaster who uses the sor/wiz spell list) learns Arcane Fusion (whether by taking sorcerer levels, Ultimate Magus levels, a class that lets him add spells to his spell list, et cetera), he can use it to cast any spells he knows--which, for a preparatory spellcaster like a wizard, is usually a lot. Arcane Fusion suddenly offers the wizard a whole lot more flexibility than it does a sorcerer. First you make believe that Arcane fusion can pull your wizard spells, then you post back saying "spells he knows" means more then just "he". It really means "the sorcerer spells he knows" Whould you make up your mind before trying to twist rules to your liking? I will save the time of posting back here tomarrow. LogicNinja will say something like: When spells known was talking about "he", it meant "the sorcerer spells know," but when a sorcerer only spell says "spell he knows" it means "any spell." Then I will see his post, tap the big X, and ignore. Theres really no point to saying anything more than I have now is there? *** Side note: And why wizard? Don't clerics know evey spell they can cast? You don't have to answer that, becuse it does not matter. Cleric plus Relic* plus Arcane Fusion equal know/cast 99% of d20 spells. *forgot the name but it's a tome that has EVEY arcane spell in it, it's found in complete devine. Use the "spellbook" and your twist on rules to make it your spells known list, use the book or even Anyspell to add arcane fusion to your daily spells, fire away.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-03-06, 12:23 AM	This trick has been assimilated into the CMag Tricks thread. :emp:
LogicNinja 11-03-06, 12:39 AM	Edit: deleted an overly rude message, there's no need to sink to your level. Let's just say that class abilities and spells work differently, why don't we? They're not the same thing. A sorcerer's "spells known" are X. A cleric's "spells known" are all cleric spells. The Sorcerer entry and the like assume a character of a single class. They can do that, they're base classes. Ultimate Magus advances your sorcerer spells known as if you had gained a sorcerer level... and your wizard spells as if you'd gained a wizard level. The character gains caster level and, if applicable, spells known, separetely, for each class. The classes are written as though you were taking them straight through. Arcane Fusion is a spell. It's exceptionally easy to get more "spells known" than just your sorcerer list, as a sorcerer. Take a cleric level. Bam! You know all first-level cleric spells. And as a side effect, you can use Protection from Evil as part of Arcane Fusion, even if you never learned it as a sorcerer. And they didn't anticipate that? Possible, I suppose, but unlikely. Yes, casting spells you know by the wizard definition of know through an Arcane Fusion cast as a sorcerer is a little questionable. No, I don't expect every DM to allow it, and I wouldn't allow it (casters are good enough as is). But this is the optimization board, so I thought the trick deserved a mention. The "get Arcane Fusion as a wizard spell via Extra Spell (if you use the liberal interpretation of it), Recaster, or Wyrm Wizard" thing isn't a little questionable, or at all questionable. And, yeah, a cleric can snag Arcane Spellsurge via Greater Anyspell. He can then use it to cast any two spells on the cleric spells, as long as they're of the appropriate levels, and are on the sor/wiz list as well as the cleric list (Summon Monster and Magic Circle Against, say). Why? Because he knows the spells. Even if he doesn't know them as a sorcerer. Does he know them? Yes. Are they on the sorcerer list? Yes, they are. Gasp! Then he can cast them with Arcane Fusion! Why not use a cleric for this? Because only a few of a cleric's spells known are also sorcerer spells. Almost any spell a wizard knows will also be a sorcerer spell. And, no. A cleric with a relic that is a spellbook that contains every single spell can't cast any of the sor/wiz spells in there with Arcane Fusion. Why? Because the cleric doesn't know them. If a wizard got hold of that spellbook, though, and he knew Arcane Fusion, then, yes. He could cast any 4th-level-or-under and any 1st level spell that is on the sorcerer spell list, using Arcane Fusion.
Think0028 11-03-06, 12:52 AM	I think I might know what he's talking about. I believe he thinks that "sorceror spells you know" means spells you know as a result of taking levels in sorceror or from gaining spells known for sorceror from a prestige class. I.E. he believes sorceror refers to the method of acquistion, not spell list.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-03-06, 12:53 AM	Ooh, I know the relic he means -- the tome of ancient lore, from CD. In fact, that'd be another way to get AF into your spellbook -- find it in the ToAL, and copy it into your spellbook!
Think0028 11-03-06, 01:02 AM	Ooh, I know the relic he means -- the tome of ancient lore, from CD. In fact, that'd be another way to get AF into your spellbook -- find it in the ToAL, and copy it into your spellbook! ... that can't be good. I'm gonna go check the rules for scribing spells. (rummage later) ... hmm. Since there were no sorceror-only spells at the time of the PHB, the only restriction is that you understand the spell and have it written. And CDiv... says that you can prepare spells found in the ToAL. And wizards prepare spells from spellbooks. And wizards can COPY spells in spellbooks. Eep.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-03-06, 01:09 AM	And even if you can't copy it, you've got a 90% chence of being able to prepare it.
LogicNinja 11-03-06, 01:12 AM	Well, it's a relic. If the DM tosses that your way, he wants you to have it. Hey, can't Arcane Fusion be used to bypass a long casting time for spells? Edit: a Recaster could pick up both the regular and the Greater version without losing extra spell levels, too. But that means not getting Heal...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-03-06, 01:21 AM	You can craft your own relics... it's not DM Fiat.
LogicNinja 11-03-06, 01:37 AM	All custom items are DM fiat.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-03-06, 01:42 AM	It wouldn't be a custom item if you just craft an item that's statted out in the book... You can craft relics just like you can craft wands or potions or even rings of invisibility. As long as they're in the book with a cost to manufacture, required feats, spells, and CL, then they're no more DM fiat than taking a given base class or PrC.
LogicNinja 11-03-06, 01:51 AM	...er, right. Sorry, I've gotten like four hours of sleep in the past two days.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 11-03-06, 07:10 PM	Section for replying to arcane fusion. I think I might know what he's talking about. I believe he thinks that "sorceror spells you know" means spells you know as a result of taking levels in sorceror or from gaining spells known for sorceror from a prestige class. I.E. he believes sorceror refers to the method of acquistion, not spell list. Exactly. My PHB page 178 says durning spell preparation a wizard casts part of the spell to be used. A sorcere spends fifthteen minutes meditating, not casting. How classes view spells and how they work. Cleric prays for it and its granted to them. They have no knowledge of how the spell works, they think it does what it does becuse their deity says it can. A wizard learns and understands how to use magic like how we use and understand eletricity. A sorcerer is clueless, he feels magic running though him and understands it as if it were a emotion. He perfects his knowledge of it though use. Think how long people went without understanding what fire really is, they knew its heat and how to control it. Yet they never understood why fire is hot or why they can create it be rubbing sticks together. Examples. Billy-bob (wizard) wakes up, and starts reading his spellbook. He stand up, sings YMCA, break dances, and gets jiggy with it. He puses near completion of teh spell and saves it for later. In afternoon he jumps up and does the splits and yells out "Hiya!", and his firball spell is finshed and goes into effect. Metamagic version whould be singing the YMCA song backwards. All thinking on how to do this is done while he starting casting his spell earler in the day. *** Billy-joe (sorcerer) wakes up and picks his nose for a few minutes, then spend another fifthteen minutes trying to remeber how to fish with a fireball. Later in the day he gets hungery and does the macroaina. A cool explosion later his fireball killed some fish. Metamagic version whould take longer becuse he does not know how to apply pig-latin to the words to the macroania off the top of his head. *** Chris (female cleric who needs to be renamed) Wakes up, kneels, clasps hands and prays "I want to make a big boom and burn stuff," unknow force teh deity controls checks to see if they are worthy of the spell and may grant them fireball. Later they mimic the ending of C3PO's story death star story and a few monsters die in the blaze. Metamagic version whould be more like the cleric praying for "I want a really big boom this time, can I have it? please? please? I will clean my room :D " Unknown poewr cehck worthness, and tells him heck no. Then says you were not suppose to have a big booming fireball-like spell in the first place. What was all that above for? To point out and explain that different class cast magic in different ways. By the intentions of spell casting it cannot be done since wizards cast their spells completly different, and spend the morning casting part of their spells. By RAW I took your idea and drove it to hell to press my point. First post was nice, secound pointed out how I used your rule twists for my own meaning and you suddenly changed sides and said it cannot be done. Out went the idea of you going by RAW, it was replaced by you going with your ideas and no one elses. Your next post not only tolds us you wanted to be rude, but you posted it. Then you decler your self to be higher than me right after that. Funny, intill now I never said a word against you. I disagreed with your idea not you. So take note, you started personal hits. If being lower than you means I don't try and put people down and make personal attacks then by all means. I accept it gladly. Section for replying to recent posts Judging by peoples post I think I just started a wildfire in their games... The single relic flat out made EVEY arcane class useless. Arcane magic normaly means you have spell failure while wearing armor, low hit die, poor combat skills and so on. Why choose to gain in those classes when you can get better stats and acess to more spells by simply being a cleric? And clerics can use devine metamagic as well. CoDZilla is weak. There is no "or druid," and godzilla is not powerful enough to hint towards a clerics power. Maybe B.T.S.M.G.T.O.A.O.D.Z.P.N.M.H.T.R.C.H.H. P.D.* can be used to hint a clerics real power. I still love sorcerers though, no matter how god-like WOTC makes clerics. Arcane fusion is the first think that can make me think wizards of the coast finaly hired a sorcerer... (it can mean "Better than super-mega-giga-tera-omega army of dire-zombie-nazi-pirate-ninja-mindflayer-halfdemons that ride cybernetic-halfdragon-halfcelestial-paragon-dinosaurs", or "what I hope to get for christmas this year")
LogicNinja 11-03-06, 07:39 PM	Section for replying to arcane fusion. Exactly. My PHB page 178 says durning spell preparation a wizard casts part of the spell to be used. A sorcere spends fifthteen minutes meditating, not casting. So you think "Sorcerer spells known" means "spells known as a sorcerer". I, uh, don't. I think "sorcerer spells that are known". Sorcerer spells are spells on the Sorcerer spell list. Your snipped discussion of how different classes cast magic isn't really relevant, because you're making a completely different assumption than the rest of us are. I suppose your assumption can also be made from the text, but that's just one of the ambiguities of the English language. By the intentions of spell casting it cannot be done since wizards cast their spells completly different, and spend the morning casting part of their spells. "Intentions of spellcasting", nothing. How you cast your spells has nothing to do with this, since Arcane Fusion creates those spells for you (not expending any spell slots other than the one to cast AF). By RAW I took your idea and drove it to hell to press my point. No, you tried to do that, and failed. "You know" in Arcane Fusion is not the same as "you know" in the sorcerer class description--and before you start accusing me of twisting the language when it's the same words, keep in mind that "you know" in the sorcerer description is already different from "you know" in the wizard or cleric descriptions. Base classes are worded differently from spells. They're worded with the assumption that they're your only class. When the sorcerer class says "you know", it naturally means know as a sorcerer. "You know" for a sorcerer class really means--if we look up "know" in the glossary, as we did--"spells that you have selected on sorcerer level-up". There is no standard definition of what "you know" in a spell means. To me "sorcerer spell" means a spell on the sorcerer list, and that's a pretty damn reasonable interpretation. First post was nice, secound pointed out how I used your rule twists for my own meaning and you suddenly changed sides and said it cannot be done. Out went the idea of you going by RAW, it was replaced by you going with your ideas and no one elses. Your next post not only tolds us you wanted to be rude, but you posted it. Then you decler your self to be higher than me right after that. Funny, intill now I never said a word against you. I disagreed with your idea not you. So take note, you started personal hits. If being lower than you means I don't try and put people down and make personal attacks then by all means. I accept it gladly. ...um. Whould you make up your mind before trying to twist rules to your liking? I will save the time of posting back here tomarrow. LogicNinja will say something like: When spells known was talking about "he", it meant "the sorcerer spells know," but when a sorcerer only spell says "spell he knows" it means "any spell." Then I will see his post, tap the big X, and ignore. Theres really no point to saying anything more than I have now is there? Yeah, you go on pretending that that isn't incredibly condescending and rude, plus insulting by virtue of implying I'm some sort of evil munchkin who just wants to twist the rules so his idea works no matter what. If it makes you feel better about yourself.