Arcane Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Serene Selene
02-24-04, 08:39 PM I was scouring the boards for warrior/mage builds (I do love such hybrids). Thats when I began to modify some of the builds I had found, but nothing resulted in anything I thought I'd really enjoy. Well, at least until my MiniHB was returned to me today.

So this is what I devised, so far.

Human, 32 point-buy.
Hexblade 2/Warmage 8/Eldritch Knight 10.
Sources used: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Miniatures Handbook, Complete Warrior.

- Hit Dice: 2d10+18d6.
- Warmage Caster Level: 17 (8th level spells).
- BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1. Fort/Ref/Will: +9/+5/+12

(Hex = Hexblade, Wmg = Warmage, Eld = Eldritch Knight, CL = Caster level)

1 Hex1 +1 +0/+0/+2 CL:0 Hexblade's curse 1/day, human bonus feat, bonus feat
2 Wmg1 +1 +0/+0/+4 CL:1 Armored mage (light), warmage edge
3 Hex2 +2 +0/+0/+5 CL:1 Arcane resistance, bonus feat
4 Wmg2 +3 +0/+0/+6 CL:2
5 Wmg3 +3 +1/+1/+6 CL:3 Advanced learning
6 Wmg4 +4 +1/+1/+7 CL:4 bonus feat
7 Wmg5 +4 +1/+1/+7 CL:5
8 Wmg6 +5 +2/+2/+8 CL:6 Advanced learning
9 Wmg7 +5 +2/+2/+8 CL:7 Arcane Strike, Sudden Empower
10 Wmg8 +6 +2/+2/+9 CL:8 Armored mage (medium)
11 Eld1 +7 +4/+2/+9 CL:8 Eldritch knight bonus feat
12 Eld2 +8 +5/+2/+9 CL:9 Bonus feat
13 Eld3 +9 +5/+3/+10 CL:10
14 Eld4 +10 +6/+3/+10 CL:11
15 Eld5 +11 +6/+3/+10 CL:12 Bonus feat
16 Eld6 +12 +7/+4/+11 CL:13
17 Eld7 +13 +7/+4/+11 CL:14
18 Eld8 +14 +8/+4/+11 CL:15 Bonus feat
19 Eld9 +15 +8/+5/+12 CL:16
20 Eld10 +16 +9/+5/+12 CL:17

What I'm really looking for is suggestions for ability and feat distributions. Though any other suggestions or comments on the build's survivability/effectiveness is definately welcome. I'd also like to keep it relatively simple and clean.

I'm open to the use of any (3.0 or 3.5) WotC published book as a source.

Thank you.
LordShade
02-24-04, 09:00 PM Out of curiosity -

Why on earth are you using Hexblade and warmage instead of fighter and sorcerer?

IMO Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword3/EK10 would be a much better build.
Serene Selene
02-24-04, 09:22 PM I suppose it would be a better build, though I enjoy the flavor Hexblade and Warmage provide - if not some of their abilities.

Is my build so horribly ineffective compared to Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight10?
rollplayer
02-24-04, 10:51 PM 'Horribly ineffective' is a little strong, but your build isn't as strong an Lordshade's suggestion. If you remove the 2nd level of Hexblade you build is just not as optimized as Lordshade's build but is still viable (Arcane Resistance isn't worth losing a level of spell-caster).

Hexblade is giving you flavor in name only, the curse ability isn't going to get stronger because you won't be gaining levels in Hexblade. A level of Fighter gives you so much more (as does a level of Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian for that matter). It is rather simple to take a level of fighter and say, "I'm a dark and brooding figure, I cause unease in small animals and children."

I don't think the Warmage is a horrible choice (I'm in the minority). The Warmage has different mechanics than the Sorcerer or the Wizard, and I feel those mechanics could make the class interesting for some people to play. I think that the limited focus of the Warmage's spells is a significant weakness, but I feel that if one thinks of him more as an archer than a Wizard one will be happy.

Which brings me to a tangent that will undermine what I've already said. The Warmage is more like an archer, he is using spells to do damage and control the battlefield. Swinging a sword is kinda overkill, which is why I feel that the Warmage works best as a strait Warmage and not as caster/fighter.

Really though, Hex1/WM8/EK10 is a reasonable build that you should have fun with (as long as you can live without Teleport).

Make sure you take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration if you play the warmage.
LordShade
02-24-04, 10:52 PM I wouldn't say it's horribly ineffective, but I think ftr/sorc offers you more.

I'm not much impressed with small dips in Hexblade unless you are using it to qualify for some other class. The low level abilities just aren't that great compared to fighter feats, IMO.

Likewise, the only thing warmage really offers over sorcerer is the light armor use, which spellsword takes care of. In terms of overall effectiveness I think sorc crushes warmage anyday. Just the fact that you can cast all of the spells a warmage can, plus invisibility, teleport, enervation, and a couple charms or divinations when you need them far outstrips all other warmage abilities in my mind. You really don't need that huge number of blasting spells that the warmage gets anyway.

Especially if you also want to be a melee combatant - the buffs that sorc offers you are very useful. Mirror image and blur alone really increase your survivability in a fight, not to mention higher level spells like stoneskin.
Serene Selene
02-24-04, 11:17 PM I understand all of these points (Some very good points).

My main gripe is the lack of armor use, unless I want to deal with the pesky arcane spell failure, until level 7 or so with Fighter/Sorcerer levels, until I begin to take levels of spellsword - where the penalty is slowly reduced.

That's a reason I like Warmage - I can immediately wear light armor and light shields, and then by 8th level wear medium armor. I do agree that the Warmage's spell selection is very limiting.

I suppose it's just me, but there's something about Hexblade2/Warmage8 that I like (maybe because fighter and sorcerer taste so bland?), but in hindsight I can see where problems can and will arise.
LordShade
02-25-04, 12:05 AM SS,

By no means am I saying that your character is weak. You just need to be conscious of everything you're giving up by being a warmage. If the only reason you're being a warmage is for the armor, then you should consider using 1) still spell or 2) the battle sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana (if you have it).

Of course, you know your group and your DM better than I do. If you don't think that you're going to be severely hurting because of your inability to polymorph, fly, teleport, or turn invisible, then by all means play a warmage.

Ultimately you have to play the character that's the most fun, not the one that's the most minmaxed.

edit - since you're thinking about playing a Hexblade, I can assume that your character isn't good-aligned. If you are LE in alignment you really ought to look into the Knight of the Thorn PrC. Even if you aren't in Dragonlance, you may be able to persuade your DM to let a similar order of knights exist in his game world. KotTh is an extremely powerful class for fighter/mages. It offers 3/4 BAB, ASF reduction, and full spellcasting all rolled up into one. On top of these benefits it offers some additional goodies like bonuses to divinations and touch spells.

A good compromise build for you using KotTh could be Ftr2/Sorc4/KotThorn8/EK6.
rollplayer
02-25-04, 03:35 AM I want to expand on what Lordshade said about the Warmage. The armor proficiencies are the worst reasons to play the Warmage. If that is what you are after there are more optimal ways to go (still spell, spell sword, a whole suite of protection spells, specialty armors). The Warmage is only a good class if you are really attracted to having access to a large number of spells that you can cast spontaneously. The spell list is much maligned but it has great combat spells with quite a few different types (fogs, walls, area affects, rays). It is a good choice if you are attracted to the ability to cast a large number of 'flashy' spells spontaneously. It is not a good choice for the armor proficiencies.

At second level you can use mage armor which would do as well as the light armor you get from the Hexblade. Around 6th level you should be able to afford a +1 mithrial chain shirt with the Twilight enchantment (Book of Exalted Deeds) that has a ASF of 0% for a little over 5K. If you had taken a level of fighter and three levels of Spell Sword, you could be wearing mithrial-Twilight full-plate at level 8 for 5% ASF and 0% ASF at level 10. With your build your getting medium armor at level 10.

Armor is not a reason to play the Warmage, it is a nice perk, but it clearly isn't a good enough reason to give up all the spells; Blur/Displacement, Mirror Image, Alter Self/Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin; that make playing a fighter/caster worthwhile.

Fighter/casters aren't effective because they wear armor and cast Fireballs. Fighter/casters are effective because they polymorph into invisible flying giants that can teleport right into your bedroom.
Sisyfos
02-25-04, 05:22 AM Originally posted by rollplayer
Fighter/casters aren't effective because they wear armor and cast Fireballs. Fighter/casters are effective because they polymorph into invisible flying giants that can teleport right into your bedroom.

Exactly. Fightermages should concern themselves more with buffs, summons and utility than damage spells. They are competent with their weapons of choice and can use that for damaging purposes. Some great buffs which make all the difference for a fightermage:

Expeditious retreat
Shield
Alter self
Displacement
Haste
Polymorph
Dragonskin
Stoneskin
Fireshield

Just to name a few. Then the ability to cast stuff like:
Teleport
Greater planar binding
SM V-VII
Shadow conjurations
Phantom steed
Solid fog
Evard's
Blindsight
Shades
Shapechange
PAO

Is just icing on the cake. Notice that I do not have fireball on that list. Casting that spell is just a waste of your BAB.

EDIT: PS. Take a look at the Sorc_Spells thread. Link is in my signature.
JosephKell
02-25-04, 10:36 AM I really think a Hexblade needs to find its way into Spellsword... (with at leve 4 levels of it)... A Hexblade using Channel Spell to through Enervation through an attack is just so flavorful... "I'll suck the very life of you through this blade," type of thing, which the Hexblade almost embodies.

I would go: Hexblade 3/Warmage 4/Blackguard 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 6 Final BAB +18, Warmage caster level 12, able to use wands from the blackguard list. Mettle, Arcane Resistance, and Dark Blessing (and according to UA, it stacks). The Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder are all very useful feats.

The Warmage gets Enervation at level 8 (which unfortunately isn't until level 14, 2nd EK level).

This thing oozes of evilness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serene Selene 02-24-04, 08:39 PM	I was scouring the boards for warrior/mage builds (I do love such hybrids). Thats when I began to modify some of the builds I had found, but nothing resulted in anything I thought I'd really enjoy. Well, at least until my MiniHB was returned to me today. So this is what I devised, so far. Human, 32 point-buy. Hexblade 2/Warmage 8/Eldritch Knight 10. Sources used: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Miniatures Handbook, Complete Warrior. - Hit Dice: 2d10+18d6. - Warmage Caster Level: 17 (8th level spells). - BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1. Fort/Ref/Will: +9/+5/+12 (Hex = Hexblade, Wmg = Warmage, Eld = Eldritch Knight, CL = Caster level) 1 Hex1 +1 +0/+0/+2 CL:0 Hexblade's curse 1/day, human bonus feat, bonus feat 2 Wmg1 +1 +0/+0/+4 CL:1 Armored mage (light), warmage edge 3 Hex2 +2 +0/+0/+5 CL:1 Arcane resistance, bonus feat 4 Wmg2 +3 +0/+0/+6 CL:2 5 Wmg3 +3 +1/+1/+6 CL:3 Advanced learning 6 Wmg4 +4 +1/+1/+7 CL:4 bonus feat 7 Wmg5 +4 +1/+1/+7 CL:5 8 Wmg6 +5 +2/+2/+8 CL:6 Advanced learning 9 Wmg7 +5 +2/+2/+8 CL:7 Arcane Strike, Sudden Empower 10 Wmg8 +6 +2/+2/+9 CL:8 Armored mage (medium) 11 Eld1 +7 +4/+2/+9 CL:8 Eldritch knight bonus feat 12 Eld2 +8 +5/+2/+9 CL:9 Bonus feat 13 Eld3 +9 +5/+3/+10 CL:10 14 Eld4 +10 +6/+3/+10 CL:11 15 Eld5 +11 +6/+3/+10 CL:12 Bonus feat 16 Eld6 +12 +7/+4/+11 CL:13 17 Eld7 +13 +7/+4/+11 CL:14 18 Eld8 +14 +8/+4/+11 CL:15 Bonus feat 19 Eld9 +15 +8/+5/+12 CL:16 20 Eld10 +16 +9/+5/+12 CL:17 What I'm really looking for is suggestions for ability and feat distributions. Though any other suggestions or comments on the build's survivability/effectiveness is definately welcome. I'd also like to keep it relatively simple and clean. I'm open to the use of any (3.0 or 3.5) WotC published book as a source. Thank you.
LordShade 02-24-04, 09:00 PM	Out of curiosity - Why on earth are you using Hexblade and warmage instead of fighter and sorcerer? IMO Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword3/EK10 would be a much better build.
Serene Selene 02-24-04, 09:22 PM	I suppose it would be a better build, though I enjoy the flavor Hexblade and Warmage provide - if not some of their abilities. Is my build so horribly ineffective compared to Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword3/Eldritch Knight10?
rollplayer 02-24-04, 10:51 PM	'Horribly ineffective' is a little strong, but your build isn't as strong an Lordshade's suggestion. If you remove the 2nd level of Hexblade you build is just not as optimized as Lordshade's build but is still viable (Arcane Resistance isn't worth losing a level of spell-caster). Hexblade is giving you flavor in name only, the curse ability isn't going to get stronger because you won't be gaining levels in Hexblade. A level of Fighter gives you so much more (as does a level of Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian for that matter). It is rather simple to take a level of fighter and say, "I'm a dark and brooding figure, I cause unease in small animals and children." I don't think the Warmage is a horrible choice (I'm in the minority). The Warmage has different mechanics than the Sorcerer or the Wizard, and I feel those mechanics could make the class interesting for some people to play. I think that the limited focus of the Warmage's spells is a significant weakness, but I feel that if one thinks of him more as an archer than a Wizard one will be happy. Which brings me to a tangent that will undermine what I've already said. The Warmage is more like an archer, he is using spells to do damage and control the battlefield. Swinging a sword is kinda overkill, which is why I feel that the Warmage works best as a strait Warmage and not as caster/fighter. Really though, Hex1/WM8/EK10 is a reasonable build that you should have fun with (as long as you can live without Teleport). Make sure you take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration if you play the warmage.
LordShade 02-24-04, 10:52 PM	I wouldn't say it's horribly ineffective, but I think ftr/sorc offers you more. I'm not much impressed with small dips in Hexblade unless you are using it to qualify for some other class. The low level abilities just aren't that great compared to fighter feats, IMO. Likewise, the only thing warmage really offers over sorcerer is the light armor use, which spellsword takes care of. In terms of overall effectiveness I think sorc crushes warmage anyday. Just the fact that you can cast all of the spells a warmage can, plus invisibility, teleport, enervation, and a couple charms or divinations when you need them far outstrips all other warmage abilities in my mind. You really don't need that huge number of blasting spells that the warmage gets anyway. Especially if you also want to be a melee combatant - the buffs that sorc offers you are very useful. Mirror image and blur alone really increase your survivability in a fight, not to mention higher level spells like stoneskin.
Serene Selene 02-24-04, 11:17 PM	I understand all of these points (Some very good points). My main gripe is the lack of armor use, unless I want to deal with the pesky arcane spell failure, until level 7 or so with Fighter/Sorcerer levels, until I begin to take levels of spellsword - where the penalty is slowly reduced. That's a reason I like Warmage - I can immediately wear light armor and light shields, and then by 8th level wear medium armor. I do agree that the Warmage's spell selection is very limiting. I suppose it's just me, but there's something about Hexblade2/Warmage8 that I like (maybe because fighter and sorcerer taste so bland?), but in hindsight I can see where problems can and will arise.
LordShade 02-25-04, 12:05 AM	SS, By no means am I saying that your character is weak. You just need to be conscious of everything you're giving up by being a warmage. If the only reason you're being a warmage is for the armor, then you should consider using 1) still spell or 2) the battle sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana (if you have it). Of course, you know your group and your DM better than I do. If you don't think that you're going to be severely hurting because of your inability to polymorph, fly, teleport, or turn invisible, then by all means play a warmage. Ultimately you have to play the character that's the most fun, not the one that's the most minmaxed. edit - since you're thinking about playing a Hexblade, I can assume that your character isn't good-aligned. If you are LE in alignment you really ought to look into the Knight of the Thorn PrC. Even if you aren't in Dragonlance, you may be able to persuade your DM to let a similar order of knights exist in his game world. KotTh is an extremely powerful class for fighter/mages. It offers 3/4 BAB, ASF reduction, and full spellcasting all rolled up into one. On top of these benefits it offers some additional goodies like bonuses to divinations and touch spells. A good compromise build for you using KotTh could be Ftr2/Sorc4/KotThorn8/EK6.
rollplayer 02-25-04, 03:35 AM	I want to expand on what Lordshade said about the Warmage. The armor proficiencies are the worst reasons to play the Warmage. If that is what you are after there are more optimal ways to go (still spell, spell sword, a whole suite of protection spells, specialty armors). The Warmage is only a good class if you are really attracted to having access to a large number of spells that you can cast spontaneously. The spell list is much maligned but it has great combat spells with quite a few different types (fogs, walls, area affects, rays). It is a good choice if you are attracted to the ability to cast a large number of 'flashy' spells spontaneously. It is not a good choice for the armor proficiencies. At second level you can use mage armor which would do as well as the light armor you get from the Hexblade. Around 6th level you should be able to afford a +1 mithrial chain shirt with the Twilight enchantment (Book of Exalted Deeds) that has a ASF of 0% for a little over 5K. If you had taken a level of fighter and three levels of Spell Sword, you could be wearing mithrial-Twilight full-plate at level 8 for 5% ASF and 0% ASF at level 10. With your build your getting medium armor at level 10. Armor is not a reason to play the Warmage, it is a nice perk, but it clearly isn't a good enough reason to give up all the spells; Blur/Displacement, Mirror Image, Alter Self/Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin; that make playing a fighter/caster worthwhile. Fighter/casters aren't effective because they wear armor and cast Fireballs. Fighter/casters are effective because they polymorph into invisible flying giants that can teleport right into your bedroom.
Sisyfos 02-25-04, 05:22 AM	Originally posted by rollplayer Fighter/casters aren't effective because they wear armor and cast Fireballs. Fighter/casters are effective because they polymorph into invisible flying giants that can teleport right into your bedroom. Exactly. Fightermages should concern themselves more with buffs, summons and utility than damage spells. They are competent with their weapons of choice and can use that for damaging purposes. Some great buffs which make all the difference for a fightermage: Expeditious retreat Shield Alter self Displacement Haste Polymorph Dragonskin Stoneskin Fireshield Just to name a few. Then the ability to cast stuff like: Teleport Greater planar binding SM V-VII Shadow conjurations Phantom steed Solid fog Evard's Blindsight Shades Shapechange PAO Is just icing on the cake. Notice that I do not have fireball on that list. Casting that spell is just a waste of your BAB. EDIT: PS. Take a look at the Sorc_Spells thread. Link is in my signature.
JosephKell 02-25-04, 10:36 AM	I really think a Hexblade needs to find its way into Spellsword... (with at leve 4 levels of it)... A Hexblade using Channel Spell to through Enervation through an attack is just so flavorful... "I'll suck the very life of you through this blade," type of thing, which the Hexblade almost embodies. I would go: Hexblade 3/Warmage 4/Blackguard 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 6 Final BAB +18, Warmage caster level 12, able to use wands from the blackguard list. Mettle, Arcane Resistance, and Dark Blessing (and according to UA, it stacks). The Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder are all very useful feats. The Warmage gets Enervation at level 8 (which unfortunately isn't until level 14, 2nd EK level). This thing oozes of evilness.