Arcane Heirophant Builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Heirophant Builds? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ezzeran
06-05-06, 10:47 PM Hey, gang. I've decided to play against type for myself and go the nature route. Usually I play social manipulators or high handed spellcasters. I've always shied away from playing shapeshifters of any kind, but Races of the Wild let me try it while still ratining some of my "roots" if you will.

I've gone through the duid resources I could find in the forum and it's loaded with awesome advice. I'm still confused on how wild shape is suppossed to work now, but I suspect that everyone else is too. ;) The crux of what I want to get at is this, though: Arcane Heirophant builds. They seem conspicuously absent. Are there any decent links to them?

Right now I'm thinking about a VoP druid 3/sorc4 to start my adventuring career with. I expect magic items will be scare in this campaign and, besides, if I want to really play against type it means throwing magic items out the window anyways. Are there any other races besides strongheart halfling and human that grant a bonus feat at level 1? Is there a better way to do this build? It has to be something that can be competitive at all levels, though, or at least not too nerfed in the mid range; the game starts at level 1. I'm already concerned enough about not wild shaping till level 9.

Of course I'm open to idea. Lets make this a general Arcane Heirophant thread, not just one about the particular character concept I had in mind. Who knows, one of your contributions might change my mind. :)

Ezz
Kuroi Kenshi
06-05-06, 10:56 PM I know for sure there is a thread dedicated to AH builds that is at least two pages long. It should have all the info you need and more. I'm sure you can find it by doing a well-narrowed google search.

Aside from that I can't help ya much :o
_J_
06-06-06, 03:43 AM If you are planning on having Sorcerer as your arcane casting class, be sure to take a look at the Kobold as your choice of race if you have access to the Races of the Dragon. Greater draconic rite of passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) can give you a free level of sorcerer casting for a feat and a few hit points! And then you add things like venerable Dragonwrought (+3 to all mental stats) and Versatile spellcaster and Practical metamagic (both from RotD) and you have one mean caster that also can be a powerful warrior with wild shape and the right buffs.

The best build would probably be Druid 3/Sorcerer 3/Mystic theurge 2/Arcane heirophant 10/Mystic theurge 4. 9th level Druid and Sorcerer spells.

VoP is a good choice if you expect to be short on magic items. Especially now that wild shape has been nerfed so that all your items meld with the new form.

Not getting wild shape until mid levels isn't as bad as it used to be. Now wild shape doesn't change your hit points, so you should invest a lot in constitution. The main reason why Druids used to be so feeble before they got wild shape was the that they had dumped Con. Now you just have to try to stay out of melee until you can wild shape, use you spells to survive. Though low levels will be pretty hard, as you wont be that good in anything. But it will be worth it, more and more the higher level you get to.

Cheers :D
-J-
Slyver
06-06-06, 05:49 AM I personally think the sorcerer is a very poor choice for a multi-caster. You lose a spell level in a build already losing them and you focus on a stat that has very little other benefit.

The following is a pretty standard AH build.

Druid 4/Wiz 2/Mindbender 1/AH 10/Druid 3 (or MT 3).

Feats
1 Practiced Spellcaster Druid, Open bonus human feat
3 Natural Bond
6 Practiced Spellcaster Wizard
9 Natural Spell

From there feats are open.

I prefer Druid 3 at the end to continue to advance wildshape and your very hefty animal companion/familiar as well as better skills and saves. Some people prefer losing all that for more wizard casting. You already get 7th level wizard spells though, which really is plenty with 9th level druid spells which rival wizard (+cleric for that matter) already. Its a trade off and neither are gimp by any means. It's probably one of the more powerful (or at least versatile) characters out there short of some of the more super-optimized characters you will only find a CO player playing.

Now, this build is pre-errata for wildshape. I'm not really sure if it will make any difference with the errata though. It depends a lot on individual interpretation. Personally I ignore the errata. One, because it is obfuscatious and erroneous, and two, because really, it made almost no effective difference whatsoever. It just requires some very out of roleplaying work-arounds. Completely assinine.

Hope this helps.

Slyver
_J_
06-06-06, 05:57 AM One feat I'd like to add to Slyver's build is Mindsight from page 126 of Lords of Madness (the feat is almost required in every build that has Mindbender). It has Telepathy as a prequisite, and lets you sense and pinpoint the location of every creature with more than 1 intelligence in the range of your telepathy!

I don't think the errata changes much of that build. The only thing it changed was that neither your hit points nor your type change, and all items meld with your new form.

Cheers :D
-J-
jameswilliamogle
06-06-06, 10:28 AM ...I was playing a Beguiler in a current campaign (a true power-game), and wasn't liking it (had no true "role" in the party w/ a Pallie and Scout already there, plus was battling "Mindless" creatures alot), so I took Leadership and built a straight-up druid cohort to get into combat a bit more. In a marathon session yesterday, we advanced from L6 (main) to L10. A reward at the end was a potion that allows me to switch my cohort and main (thus the Druid will be L10). Now, since the cohort had a lesser point buy than the beguiler, I had him built as a summoning druid, since it requires very little in the way of stats, but the DM is allowing retraining and switching of the point-buy system from main to cohort. AND he's allowing Precocious Apprentice to qualify for AH.

2 part question:
1st: Is there any advantage the Druid has over the AH other than 1 extra casting level of Druid (going into epic)?

2nd: Given the following two builds, which would you play and could I improve them much?
build A: Straight Summoning Druid Human 18 Wis, 14 Cha, Int, and Con
1 Greenbound Summoning, Sp Foci: Conjuration
3 Augment Summoning
6 Natural Spell
9 Initiate of Nature
12 Quicken Spell
15 Mobile Spellcasting
18 Extraordinary Concentration

build B: Druid 9 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Hierophant 10
Human 18 Wis, 16 Int, Con 14, Cha 10
1 Greenbound Summoning, Sp Foci: Conjuration
3 Augment Summoning
6 Precocious Apprentice
9 Natural Spell
12 Practiced Spellcaster: Wiz
15 Quicken Spell
18 Extraordinary Concentration

Realize that we're going Epic w/ these guys. (I could probably get away with pre-errata polymorph, too, but I'm not going to).
_J_
06-06-06, 10:43 AM If going epic, I think the biggest question is how does your DM rule casting progression for epic AH? If it's half and half like epic Mystic theurge, I think you'd be much better with a straight Druid, but if it progresses both Arcane and Divine at each level, I don't think there is a reason not to take it. And at epic feats are great, an epic Druid gets a bonus feat every 4th level, and epic AH (if progression similar to MT is used) gets a bonus feat every 6th level.

The biggest benefit of Arcane heirophant is IMO the ability to get both 9th level Druid and Wizard spells. Anything else it gives you isn't that good, and a pure Druid would be better.
NineInchNall
06-06-06, 12:14 PM If you can use Easy Metamagic from Dragon 325, then you can speed things up considerably.

Druid 1/Wizard 1/Druid 2-3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5-6

H) Able Learner
1) Heighten Spell
3) Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)

Now just use whatever feat progression you want. *shrug* You end up casting as a 17th level Wizard and 19th level Druid. I'd think that that would qualify as a primary caster. Don't forget to pick up Natural Bond to boost that animal companion to a respectable level.

Oh, and using a Totem Druid from Dragon 335 gets you Natural Spell as a bonus feat at level two.
jameswilliamogle
06-06-06, 03:21 PM Oh, and using a Totem Druid from Dragon 335 gets you Natural Spell as a bonus feat at level two. That's nice... gives extremely low-level Druids in low-powered games some nice options via Aspect of the Wolf / Bite of the Wererat goodness (I'll take +7 to hit at 3rd level any day). Lets one keep that Aspect up and running really early on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ezzeran 06-05-06, 10:47 PM	Hey, gang. I've decided to play against type for myself and go the nature route. Usually I play social manipulators or high handed spellcasters. I've always shied away from playing shapeshifters of any kind, but Races of the Wild let me try it while still ratining some of my "roots" if you will. I've gone through the duid resources I could find in the forum and it's loaded with awesome advice. I'm still confused on how wild shape is suppossed to work now, but I suspect that everyone else is too. ;) The crux of what I want to get at is this, though: Arcane Heirophant builds. They seem conspicuously absent. Are there any decent links to them? Right now I'm thinking about a VoP druid 3/sorc4 to start my adventuring career with. I expect magic items will be scare in this campaign and, besides, if I want to really play against type it means throwing magic items out the window anyways. Are there any other races besides strongheart halfling and human that grant a bonus feat at level 1? Is there a better way to do this build? It has to be something that can be competitive at all levels, though, or at least not too nerfed in the mid range; the game starts at level 1. I'm already concerned enough about not wild shaping till level 9. Of course I'm open to idea. Lets make this a general Arcane Heirophant thread, not just one about the particular character concept I had in mind. Who knows, one of your contributions might change my mind. :) Ezz
Kuroi Kenshi 06-05-06, 10:56 PM	I know for sure there is a thread dedicated to AH builds that is at least two pages long. It should have all the info you need and more. I'm sure you can find it by doing a well-narrowed google search. Aside from that I can't help ya much :o
_J_ 06-06-06, 03:43 AM	If you are planning on having Sorcerer as your arcane casting class, be sure to take a look at the Kobold as your choice of race if you have access to the Races of the Dragon. Greater draconic rite of passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) can give you a free level of sorcerer casting for a feat and a few hit points! And then you add things like venerable Dragonwrought (+3 to all mental stats) and Versatile spellcaster and Practical metamagic (both from RotD) and you have one mean caster that also can be a powerful warrior with wild shape and the right buffs. The best build would probably be Druid 3/Sorcerer 3/Mystic theurge 2/Arcane heirophant 10/Mystic theurge 4. 9th level Druid and Sorcerer spells. VoP is a good choice if you expect to be short on magic items. Especially now that wild shape has been nerfed so that all your items meld with the new form. Not getting wild shape until mid levels isn't as bad as it used to be. Now wild shape doesn't change your hit points, so you should invest a lot in constitution. The main reason why Druids used to be so feeble before they got wild shape was the that they had dumped Con. Now you just have to try to stay out of melee until you can wild shape, use you spells to survive. Though low levels will be pretty hard, as you wont be that good in anything. But it will be worth it, more and more the higher level you get to. Cheers :D -J-
Slyver 06-06-06, 05:49 AM	I personally think the sorcerer is a very poor choice for a multi-caster. You lose a spell level in a build already losing them and you focus on a stat that has very little other benefit. The following is a pretty standard AH build. Druid 4/Wiz 2/Mindbender 1/AH 10/Druid 3 (or MT 3). Feats 1 Practiced Spellcaster Druid, Open bonus human feat 3 Natural Bond 6 Practiced Spellcaster Wizard 9 Natural Spell From there feats are open. I prefer Druid 3 at the end to continue to advance wildshape and your very hefty animal companion/familiar as well as better skills and saves. Some people prefer losing all that for more wizard casting. You already get 7th level wizard spells though, which really is plenty with 9th level druid spells which rival wizard (+cleric for that matter) already. Its a trade off and neither are gimp by any means. It's probably one of the more powerful (or at least versatile) characters out there short of some of the more super-optimized characters you will only find a CO player playing. Now, this build is pre-errata for wildshape. I'm not really sure if it will make any difference with the errata though. It depends a lot on individual interpretation. Personally I ignore the errata. One, because it is obfuscatious and erroneous, and two, because really, it made almost no effective difference whatsoever. It just requires some very out of roleplaying work-arounds. Completely assinine. Hope this helps. Slyver
_J_ 06-06-06, 05:57 AM	One feat I'd like to add to Slyver's build is Mindsight from page 126 of Lords of Madness (the feat is almost required in every build that has Mindbender). It has Telepathy as a prequisite, and lets you sense and pinpoint the location of every creature with more than 1 intelligence in the range of your telepathy! I don't think the errata changes much of that build. The only thing it changed was that neither your hit points nor your type change, and all items meld with your new form. Cheers :D -J-
jameswilliamogle 06-06-06, 10:28 AM	...I was playing a Beguiler in a current campaign (a true power-game), and wasn't liking it (had no true "role" in the party w/ a Pallie and Scout already there, plus was battling "Mindless" creatures alot), so I took Leadership and built a straight-up druid cohort to get into combat a bit more. In a marathon session yesterday, we advanced from L6 (main) to L10. A reward at the end was a potion that allows me to switch my cohort and main (thus the Druid will be L10). Now, since the cohort had a lesser point buy than the beguiler, I had him built as a summoning druid, since it requires very little in the way of stats, but the DM is allowing retraining and switching of the point-buy system from main to cohort. AND he's allowing Precocious Apprentice to qualify for AH. 2 part question: 1st: Is there any advantage the Druid has over the AH other than 1 extra casting level of Druid (going into epic)? 2nd: Given the following two builds, which would you play and could I improve them much? build A: Straight Summoning Druid Human 18 Wis, 14 Cha, Int, and Con 1 Greenbound Summoning, Sp Foci: Conjuration 3 Augment Summoning 6 Natural Spell 9 Initiate of Nature 12 Quicken Spell 15 Mobile Spellcasting 18 Extraordinary Concentration build B: Druid 9 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Hierophant 10 Human 18 Wis, 16 Int, Con 14, Cha 10 1 Greenbound Summoning, Sp Foci: Conjuration 3 Augment Summoning 6 Precocious Apprentice 9 Natural Spell 12 Practiced Spellcaster: Wiz 15 Quicken Spell 18 Extraordinary Concentration Realize that we're going Epic w/ these guys. (I could probably get away with pre-errata polymorph, too, but I'm not going to).
_J_ 06-06-06, 10:43 AM	If going epic, I think the biggest question is how does your DM rule casting progression for epic AH? If it's half and half like epic Mystic theurge, I think you'd be much better with a straight Druid, but if it progresses both Arcane and Divine at each level, I don't think there is a reason not to take it. And at epic feats are great, an epic Druid gets a bonus feat every 4th level, and epic AH (if progression similar to MT is used) gets a bonus feat every 6th level. The biggest benefit of Arcane heirophant is IMO the ability to get both 9th level Druid and Wizard spells. Anything else it gives you isn't that good, and a pure Druid would be better.
NineInchNall 06-06-06, 12:14 PM	If you can use Easy Metamagic from Dragon 325, then you can speed things up considerably. Druid 1/Wizard 1/Druid 2-3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5-6 H) Able Learner 1) Heighten Spell 3) Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell) Now just use whatever feat progression you want. shrug You end up casting as a 17th level Wizard and 19th level Druid. I'd think that that would qualify as a primary caster. Don't forget to pick up Natural Bond to boost that animal companion to a respectable level. Oh, and using a Totem Druid from Dragon 335 gets you Natural Spell as a bonus feat at level two.
jameswilliamogle 06-06-06, 03:21 PM	Oh, and using a Totem Druid from Dragon 335 gets you Natural Spell as a bonus feat at level two. That's nice... gives extremely low-level Druids in low-powered games some nice options via Aspect of the Wolf / Bite of the Wererat goodness (I'll take +7 to hit at 3rd level any day). Lets one keep that Aspect up and running really early on.