Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XrP-Leon The Second 08-10-05, 01:47 PM	My question here is about the arcane spells, and which would be better for my Arcane Herophant build. If I go with a Sorc I will have the following spells per day for arcane: 0th-6/1st-6/2nd-6/3rd-6/4th-6/5th-6/6th-6/7th-6/8th-4 And this for divine: 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 Versus a wizard will grant me this: 0th-4/1st-4/2nd-4/3rd-4/4th-4/5th-4/6th-4/7th-3/8th-2/9th-1 With this for divine: 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 So, more spells per day, without 9th level spells, and without 9th level divine, or less spells per day, with 1 9th arcane and 1 9th divine spell? This character is going to be a combat support character. He will probablly use blasting most, followed by healing a buffer, and also utility, if he prepares them.
AviLazar 08-10-05, 03:57 PM	I would suggest sorcerer. As a Druid you are a prepared spell caster, as a sorcerer you are a spontaneous spell caster --- It not only saves you in game time (you dont have to make two spell sheets) but picking a spell on the fly is very useful. In fact, in almost any build that I use that has two differing spellcasters - i try and make one of them spontaneous. Either way, you will have TONS and TONS of spells at hand. -A
Tytalus 08-10-05, 07:04 PM	I'd choose the wizard route. 9th level spells are definately worth it. Plus, with the (likely) high int this build is much better on skills.
Kurama Youko 08-10-05, 07:09 PM	I say go with the Sorcerer, Why? Because its good in any arcane/divine build to have one side of it be spontaneous, you will find yourself extremely happy with the fact that you dont kill the groups playing time by trying to decide what spells your gonna prepare for both sides of your spellcasting, and the sorcerer part of your will not need to fill in a wizards shoes because you already have the ability to prepare whatever spell might be needed on your druid side. This is more true for Cleric/Sorcerers in whatever Prestige allows them to go both routes at once such as mystic theurge or true necromancer.
allenchan 08-10-05, 07:17 PM	Very few things are worth giving up 9th level spells, and the ability to cast spontaniously is not one of them.
Kurama Youko 08-10-05, 07:22 PM	Your talking about a person who is already multiclassing between 3 levels of Druid and 3lvs of a arcane spellcasting class. I think he's past the point of worrying about 9th lv spells.
Encard 08-10-05, 07:45 PM	Your talking about a person who is already multiclassing between 3 levels of Druid and 3lvs of a arcane spellcasting class. I think he's past the point of worrying about 9th lv spells. Eh, he stills gets 9th-level spells if he goes with Wizard, so I don't think he is. Personally, I'd say go Wizard - with that many spells, the spontaneous casting will be less of an issue since you'll be able to prepare for more or less anything. However, 9th-level spells are still very nice to have.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-10-05, 07:48 PM	Ok, here's the pros and cons of each, as I see them. Sorcorer: Pros More spells on the arcane side per day less preperation time before/in seesions Spontanious casting Sorcorer: Cons No nineth level arcane spells Wildshaping and companion of the druid suffer 1 by one level No nineth level divine spells Wizard: Pros Nineth level spells Druid doesn't suffer a one level loss More versatility Scribe Scroll for free All Knowledge skills Wizard: Cons Less spells per day Non-spontainious casting More preperation time before/in sessions I think that's (most) all of them. @AviLazar: Yes, the more arcane spells will be nice, but you don't see that the druid suffers 1 level, since a sorc needs 4 levels to get 2nd level spells. @Tytalus Yes, I'm not prepared to undermine 9th level spells, and skills do not matter for this build. @Kurama Youko Very good point, thanks for mentioning it. In which book is the true necromancer? I have most of the books, I just haven't read them :P @allenchan Once again, I know the power of 9th level spells, and that not much is worth them. But, there's a decent amount of things to concider here apart from 9th level spells. Once again, thanks. @Kurama Youko again Yeah, I didn't expect 9th level spells, but with this build they are still possible, so I thought I'd bring the subject up. Thanks everyone, please, keep comenting. When I started this thread, I was leaning towards the sorcorer side, but now, I think wizard might be worth more. One last time, thanks for the help.
Aluroon 08-10-05, 08:12 PM	Wizard is more powerful but the sorcerer is more versadle and is more in keeping the the flavor of the druid. Its your call in the end. Personally I'd go with wizard but thats just me being a wizard junky. Aluroon
XrP-Leon The Second 08-10-05, 09:35 PM	Yes, that's another thing I've been thinking about, his character is more in-line with the socorer, and the sorc seems to mingle better with the druid. So, with that in mind, should it be a sorc, warmage, or wizard? The wizard is more powerful, I think, but the sorc is miore flavorful for this character. The warmage, however, is about the same for his flavor, he's rather eratic at times and likes flinging spells. So, my thoughts were he could be a warmage balista, and be a druid supporter.... Maybe that would work better. Note: He's a BBEG, if it comes down to it, I'll just bump him up to level 25 or so, with more levels of the Thurge, and let him have 9th level of each type :evillaugh
Faragon 08-11-05, 02:47 AM	Keep in mind that despite Wizards' wiz3/druid3/arcane hierophantX under the wildshape entry, you need a BAB +4 to qualify (which their example doesn't :P)
XrP-Leon The Second 08-11-05, 02:59 AM	That's where the 3-4 levels of Mystic Thurge comes in. The build looks something like this: Druid3/Sorcorer4/MT3/AH10 OR Druid3/Wizard3/MT4/AH10
XrP-Leon The Second 08-11-05, 03:06 AM	More prescicely, the build will look like this: Warmage/Sorcorer version: Level BAB Class Abilities/Feats 1 .75 Druid1 "Animal Companion", "Nature Sence", Wild Empathy", ~FEAT~, ~FEAT~ 2 1.50 Drd2 "Woodland Stride" 3 2.25 Drd3 "Trackless Step", ~FEAT~ 4 2.75 Drd3/WarMage1 "Armored Mage (Light)", "Warmage Edge" 5 3.25 Drd3/WaM2 -- 6 3.75 Drd3/WaM3 "Advanced Learning", ~FEAT~ 7 4.25 Drd3/WaM4 -- 8 5 Drd3/WaM4/Arcane Herophant1 "Companion Familiar", "Ignore Arcane Spell Failure", Wild Shape" 9 5.75 Drd3/WaM4/AH2 ~FEAT~ 10 6.50 Drd3/WaM4/AH3 -- 11 7.25 Drd3/WaM4/AH4 "Channel Animal 2/day" 12 8 Drd3/WaM4/AH5 ~FEAT~ 13 8.75 Drd3/WaM4/AH6 "Channel Plant 1/Day" 14 9.50 Drd3/WaM4/AH7 -- 15 10.25 Drd3/WaM4/AH8 "Channel Animal 4/day", ~FEAT~ 16 11 Drd3/WaM4/AH9 -- 17 11.75 Drd3/WaM4/AH10 "Channel Plant 2/day" 18 12.25 Drd3/WaM4/AH10/MT1 ~FEAT~ 19 12.75 Drd3/WaM4/AH10/MT2 -- 20 13.25 Drd3/WaM4/AH10/MT3 -- This gives you a druid caster level of 16, a warmage caster level of 17, and wildshaping/companion of a 13th level druid along with a familiar of a 14th level sorc/warmage. Note: Warmage msut select Summon Familiar Whereas, the wizard version will look like this: Level BAB Class Abilities/Feats 1 .75 Druid1 "Animal Companion", "Nature Sence", Wild Empathy", ~FEAT~, ~FEAT~ 2 1.50 Drd2 "Woodland Stride" 3 2.25 Drd3 "Trackless Step", ~FEAT~ 4 2.75 Drd3/Wizard1 "Armored Mage (Light)", "Warmage Edge" 5 3.25 Drd3/Wiz2 -- 6 3.75 Drd3/Wiz3 "Advanced Learning", ~FEAT~ 7 4.25 Drd3/Mystic Thurge1 -- 8 5 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/Arcane Herophant1 "Companion Familiar", "Ignore Arcane Spell Failure", Wild Shape" 9 5.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH2 ~FEAT~ 10 6.50 Drd3/Wiz3/AH3 -- 11 7.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH4 "Channel Animal 2/day" 12 8 Drd3/Wiz3/AH5 ~FEAT~ 13 8.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH6 "Channel Plant 1/Day" 14 9.50 Drd3/Wiz3/AH7 -- 15 10.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH8 "Channel Animal 4/day", ~FEAT~ 16 11 Drd3/Wiz3/AH9 -- 17 11.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10 "Channel Plant 2/day" 18 12.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT2 ~FEAT~ 19 12.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT3 -- 20 13.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT4 -- Which nets you wildshaping, animal companion, and familiar of a 13th level druid/wizard, along with caster levels of 17 for each class.
Neb Rybel 08-11-05, 03:12 AM	Actually Arcane Heirophant requires a BAB of +4. So that is either Druid 4/Wiz 3, Druid 3/Wiz 4, or Druid 3/Sorc 4. I guess you could also do Druid 3/Wiz 3/MT 2 to get the BAB covered... But I suggest Druid 3/Sorcerer 4.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-11-05, 03:26 AM	:P I know about the builds and the BAB requirments and everything. What I want to know is which of the two above builds is more optimal?
PonTelon 08-11-05, 03:45 AM	My overall favorite class to mix with Arcane Heriophant is Wu Jen. Flavor is there. The bad part is that you have to use one feat to get a familiar, and thus the benefit. Again, it's a prepared spellcaster, however. I'm always fond of spontaneous, no matter what, but this is one of the only prepared spellcasters I wanted to play. Might look at the spontaneous Druid rules from UA. It's under "Spontaneous Divine." Then you could get level 9 spells on both sides and still have one side spontaneous.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-11-05, 03:57 AM	Ok, this changes little, though. The spell secret would be nice, as you can apply it to "any spell known", that would include divine. Personally, I would use "maximize spell" on Restoration, Lesser, or Cure Lught Wounds.... This doesn't change the fact of wizard VS sorcorer for this build. It just gives us two more flavorful fariants: Wu Jen and War Mage.
Faragon 08-11-05, 05:06 AM	So, more spells per day, without 9th level spells, and without 9th level divine, or less spells per day, with 1 9th arcane and 1 9th divine spell?Well, looking at it simply... You're a dual casterclass. You've got enough spells to go around :P Make sure that the spells you have are the best. (which means you want 9th level spells) Hence, I'd say go wizard/druid.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-11-05, 01:11 PM	That's a good point, faragon. I started this out being in favor of the sorc/warmage, but now I guess I'll go Wu Jen...
Timlagor 08-11-05, 02:33 PM	I don't kow the Wu Jen but of the others i'd absolutely definitely go Wizard. The one thing you don't have is any shortage of spells/day so you can prepare for pretty much anything anyway AND you will havea lot more utility and flexibility of spells as a Wizard. The one area you are going to be short it power/spell so you really don't want to sacrifice the eventual 9th level spells. I'd also take Druid 4 rather than Wiz 4 if you aren't taking the 3/3/MT 2 route because it helps the companion more. That said I'd want the Natural Bond Feat which I think gets you 4 levels. You could also take Beastmaster 1 as your 7th level but I wouldn't recommend it. Finally you could get your DM to go with the flavour of the class and abolish the BAB requirement or use the fractions rules for it ;) -get them to extend it to 14 levels too :D
Shandrakor 08-11-05, 11:18 PM	The only thing worth giving up 9th level spells for is 9th level spells in another class. My overall favorite class to mix with Arcane Heriophant is Wu Jen. Flavor is there. The bad part is that you have to use one feat to get a familiar, and thus the benefit. Again, it's a prepared spellcaster, however. I'm always fond of spontaneous, no matter what, but this is one of the only prepared spellcasters I wanted to play. Might look at the spontaneous Druid rules from UA. It's under "Spontaneous Divine." Then you could get level 9 spells on both sides and still have one side spontaneous. I've been toying with the concept of a Wu Jen/Druid AH myself. Have you played one? How'd it work out?
PonTelon 08-12-05, 12:21 AM	I've been toying with the concept of a Wu Jen/Druid AH myself. Have you played one? How'd it work out? I haven't PLAYED one, but I actually made the character sheet and the spell-list and everything. The DM chickened out at the last minute... One of my favorite was if your DM allows 'Wu Jen-esque' spells from other books to be allowed to be added to their list. My favorite was Baleful Transdisposition. Level 2 spell that only has verbal components. Wu Jen to add silent spell permanently to it. =) That was one spell I had tattooed to my feet in case I got captured. One of my taboos(that was OK'd by the DM) was that no one could see my feet. So I had them rapped up all the time. Of course, this character was also a woman who bound her chest. But it was a lot of fun working with the character. And the flavor is astounding, since Wu Jen are already elemental-based spellcasters. *has babbled a bit* Sorry. ^^;;
XrP-Leon The Second 08-12-05, 01:01 PM	Level BAB Class Abilities/Feats 1 .75 Druid1 "Animal Companion", "Nature Sence", Wild Empathy", ~FEAT~, ~FEAT~ 2 1.50 Drd2 "Woodland Stride" 3 2.25 Drd3 "Trackless Step", ~FEAT~ 4 2.75 Drd3/Wizard1 "Armored Mage (Light)", "Warmage Edge" 5 3.25 Drd3/Wiz2 -- 6 3.75 Drd3/Wiz3 "Advanced Learning", ~FEAT~ 7 4.25 Drd3/Mystic Thurge1 -- 8 5 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/Arcane Herophant1 "Companion Familiar", "Ignore Arcane Spell Failure", Wild Shape" 9 5.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH2 ~FEAT~ 10 6.50 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH3 -- 11 7.25 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH4 "Channel Animal 2/day" 12 8 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH5 ~FEAT~ 13 8.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH6 "Channel Plant 1/Day" 14 9.50 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH7 -- 15 10.25 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH8 "Channel Animal 4/day", ~FEAT~ 16 11 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH9 -- 17 11.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH10 "Channel Plant 2/day" 18 12.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT2 ~FEAT~ 19 12.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT3 -- 20 13.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT4 -- Assuming that I have less than 28 in wisdom and inteligence, then I won't get bonus 9th level spells anyways, and this nets me 1 9th level arcane spell, and 1 9th level divine spell. Not too bad. Now, I'm nbot much of a wizard player. What race should he be? What feats should I take? What about items? I know there's an item out there (supposedly in Magic of Faeruin) that gives you wildshaping of a druid of 5 levels higher, giving me a wildshape as a 18th level druid. Also, the monk's belt would net me wisdom to AC. I have wildshaping, so my physical stats can pretty much go to heck. But, as he's an NPC, I'll say his stats are as high enough as they need to be for feats, and int and wis will be 18 to start with.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 12:13 AM	Le bump?
Shandrakor 08-13-05, 05:06 AM	Assuming that I have less than 28 in wisdom and inteligence, then I won't get bonus 9th level spells anyways, and this nets me 1 9th level arcane spell, and 1 9th level divine spell. Not too bad. Now, I'm nbot much of a wizard player. What race should he be? What feats should I take? What about items? I know there's an item out there (supposedly in Magic of Faeruin) that gives you wildshaping of a druid of 5 levels higher, giving me a wildshape as a 18th level druid. Also, the monk's belt would net me wisdom to AC. I have wildshaping, so my physical stats can pretty much go to heck. But, as he's an NPC, I'll say his stats are as high enough as they need to be for feats, and int and wis will be 18 to start with. You should probably be a race with an INT bonus, a WIS bonus, or nifty racial sub levels. You mentioned it's going to be an NPC, thus I'd make it either a Jermaline (MMII), an Anthopomorphic Bat (SavS), or a Vanara (OA). However, elves have the best wizard sub level & they get it at FIRST FREAKING LEVEL; check RoD. The Wild Shape Amulet is on page 167 of MoF; it's actually only 4 higher. I'd buy it for any AH though -- helps an AH catch up with the thoroughbreds. Make sure you get Wilding Clasps for anything you think you'll want whilst wildshaped (unless you're planning on running around in Legendary Ape form all the time; in that case disregard). Personally, depending on what level he'll be, I'd have him read a +5 Tome of Wisdom & have a spellcaster (Cohort, or other) PAO him into a Sarrukh (SK) to make him the ultimate Wizard. Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6910661#post6910661) a thread dealing the the niftiness of Sarrukh; depending on how tough you want to make him you might use this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=385650) as well. Regardless, once he's got the highest Int he can get (either via PAO or the Sarrukh's nifty ability on pages 80-81 of SK (Cohort w/ scroll of Shapechange works wonders here)), then you read the Tome. I like to have my cohort read a tome whilst PAOed into Sarrukh form, then slap a +6 Headband of INT on him; that'll get you a BASE INT of 41; then you read your +5 Tome of Int & reclaim your +6 Headband of INT; now you'll be at 52+however many you have left to put in from level raises. This can of course be done for any stat, though INT starts off the sickest.
Dark_beebles 08-13-05, 06:59 AM	Assuming that I have less than 28 in wisdom and inteligence, then I won't get bonus 9th level spells anyways, and this nets me 1 9th level arcane spell, and 1 9th level divine spell. Variant elven wizard in Races of the wild you get 1 extra spell a day of your highest lvl spell. Grey elf wizard3/dru3/mt4/AH10 is the way to go. With the bonus spell at your highest lvl casting and the int mod..you can work more with your wis for your points. And since you shape the con loss wont be such a big deal either. You said you were gonna be more a blaster..so pump up your int for your saves and extra spells..Druids get nice/decent buffs so you wont need a uber high wisdom for that. But...you can if you want to..just a example of how to get it below...extra spell for both caster class's Int16 +2 racial +5 book +6 item + 1 from lvl = 30 for a total of 3 9th lvl spells Wis 14 +5 book + 6 item +4 from lvl = 29 for a total of 2 9th lvl spells Hope this is right...really tired and if it is right...Hope it helps with your decision.
Shandrakor 08-13-05, 02:39 PM	Int16 +2 racial +5 book +6 item + 1 from lvl = 30 for a total of 3 9th lvl spells Wis 14 +5 book + 6 item +4 from lvl = 29 for a total of 2 9th lvl spells Hope this is right...really tired and if it is right...Hope it helps with your decision. You're almost spot-on; you just forgot that Clerics get a domain spell at each level. So he'll have 3 9th level spells. I tend to optimize Wis & Cha, because everything else can be changed via spells.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 02:48 PM	o.O Druid, not cleric. :P Thank you guys SO MUCH. My players will now hate and despise you. :P I have this guy and his other buddies already running around, but now I know what they will end up as. Fun fun fun. So, check out RotW for another 9th level arcane spell, and do some crazy thing with a cohort to get higher int... :P Sorry, these guys don't have a cohort... and I'm not that pushed up to murder my PCs. Thanks a lot for all the help. It's nice having helpful people around. Where is the grey elf?
CubeKnight 08-13-05, 03:09 PM	Where is the grey elf? Monster Manual or the SRD.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 03:24 PM	Ok, now what about feats? I know Natural Spell is a give in. Also, what is the name of the feat that treats your spells as if cast by someone 3 levels higher, and which book is it in?
Quenditar 08-13-05, 03:29 PM	Are you talking about Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane)? IIRC it increases your caster level by 4 to a maximum of your HD, and would have to be taken separately for each spellcasting class you want to apply it to.
Shandrakor 08-13-05, 04:03 PM	o.O Druid, not cleric. :embarrass Smites self. Ok, now what about feats? I know Natural Spell is a give in. Also, what is the name of the feat that treats your spells as if cast by someone 3 levels higher, and which book is it in? Dragon Wild Shape (Dr) is an essential for any Druidic Build. If you want to screw your players over, make him a VoP Druid. :evillaugh Other fun feats are pretty much world-dependent; check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005) for more info. Twelve Headed Cryohydra is always popular, and some of the Horrid feats are sick. =)
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 04:54 PM	:embarrass Smites self. -Does a jig on his dead body- Dragon Wild Shape (Dr) is an essential for any Druidic Build. If you want to screw your players over, make him a VoP Druid. :evillaugh I guess (Dr) is the Draconimagiflueycon, right? And Vow of Poverty... nah.... That's just making me an ass. Other fun feats are pretty much world-dependent; check here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005) for more info. Twelve Headed Cryohydra is always popular, and some of the Horrid feats are sick. =) That thread is on my favorites list :D
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 05:08 PM	Grey Elf Level BAB Class Abilities/Feats 1 .75 Druid1 "Animal Companion", "Nature Sence", Wild Empathy", ~Silent Spell~ 2 1.50 Drd2 "Woodland Stride" 3 2.25 Drd3 "Trackless Step", ~Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)~ 4 2.75 Drd3/Elf Wizard1 "Generalist Wizardry*" 5 3.25 Drd3/Wiz2 -- 6 3.75 Drd3/Wiz3 ~Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)~ 7 4.25 Drd3/Mystic Thurge1 -- 8 5 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/Arcane Herophant1 "Companion Familiar", "Ignore Arcane Spell Failure", Wild Shape" 9 5.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH2 ~Wild Spell~ 10 6.50 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH3 -- 11 7.25 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH4 "Channel Animal 2/day" 12 8 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH5 ~Draconic Wild Shape~ 13 8.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH6 "Channel Plant 1/Day" 14 9.50 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH7 -- 15 10.25 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH8 "Channel Animal 4/day", ~FEAT~ 16 11 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH9 -- 17 11.75 Drd3/Wiz3/MT1/AH10 "Channel Plant 2/day" 18 12.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT2 ~FEAT~ 19 12.75 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT3 -- 20 13.25 Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT4 -- 1 extra 1st level spell, one extra spell at highest level. I sitll have a level 15 and level 18 spell. What should they be?
Timlagor 08-13-05, 11:55 PM	Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) CArc and Cdiv Natural Bond -treat animal companion as higher level Natural Spell Quicken Spell Craft Wondrous Item PS Druid? Extend? Sudden X?