Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darthvyce 11-23-05, 09:42 AM	Ok I have a question for all of you optimization gurus ... what is the best build for the arcane hierophant? I'm looking for the most versatile type build possible. I came up with the following builds so far: wiz 3/drd 7/hierophant 10 (w/practised caster druid, this gives 9th lvl drd spls and 7th lvl wizzie spls) or wiz 3/totem drd 3/combat medic 5/arcane hierophant 9 (like above you need practised caster druid, and you get 9th lvl drd/6th lvl wizzie spells, but you also get evasion and the ability to spont cast heal, the downside is you need combat casting and dodge. totem druid is in dragon 335 it grants wild shape at 1st lvl. totem druid also grants natural spell as a bonus feat at 2nd lvl.) What feats would be the best choices for a versatile arcane hierophant? I imagine that practised caster is a must, however. This leaves 6 feats open (4 feats if using my second build above) so what would be the best choices. I was thinking the augment summoning route for a good solid support type character. Any suggestions or feedback is welcome! Thanks:)
Prominence 11-23-05, 09:43 AM	Ideally, wizard / Druid / Mystic Theurge / Arcane Hierophant. You can use the theurge to bump your spellcasting untill you hit hierophant.
Gerdreg 11-23-05, 09:47 AM	Yah, Dr 3/ Wiz/ MT 2/ AH 10/ MT 2 is the optimal build as it gives you 9th levels spells in both classes. For feats I would take Practiced Spellcaster for both classes to give you a CL of 20/20. Other feats I like for this combo are Natural Bond for a better Companion Familiar and Natural Spell to cast while Wildshaped. I also saw one build where someone took Battle caster and Heavy Armor Proficiency because he wanted to be able to cast in enchanted Wild Ironwood Full Plate.
darthvyce 11-23-05, 10:29 AM	I know about the mystic theurge trick but I always interpreted the hierophant's wild shaping ability as stacking if you already have the ability. Or is it that you simply add your druid and hierophant levels together to determine your wild shaping level. If this is the case then I think I will use the following: wiz3/totem drd3/hierophant10/mystic theurge4 This is pretty good as you get a bab 12, saves 8/6/17, 9th lvl drd/wiz spls, and natural spell as a bonus feat. I would also have to take practised caster twice and natural bond. This leaves 4 feats. Any ideas on what feats to take? Thanks for the help so far. :)
Prominence 11-23-05, 10:37 AM	Druid 3 / arcane hierophant 2 will have wildshape as normal, the thread a while back handled it. ...but you can always go 5 druid / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 2 / arcane hierophant 10 if you insist on needing druid 5. ..all it changes is you get level 9 druid spells and 8 wizard. Alternatively, if you're still worried, take the divion minion template. Divine minion 1 / Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / MT 2 / AH 10 / MT 1. Which has only 8th level spells, but a more powerful wildshape.
El_Machinae 11-23-05, 10:53 AM	It really depends if you're building the character or playing the character. Druid 5/Wiz 3 is a bit painful, but do able. Druid 7/Wiz 3 is better, because Druid can 'carry' you for three levels. I actually don't recommend Practiced Caster - you need feats too badly, and few Druid spells require beating SR.
Prominence 11-23-05, 10:56 AM	I don't know, Druid 5 can carry you for a while as a melee character, wizard 3 gives you true strike.... shrug. Maybe you can pick up an amulet of wildshape from faerun and wildshape as the 7th level druid anyway. 9th level you'll be golden though, since you can take exalted wildshape and live out your life as a blink dog. edit: you'll also get alter self, which if you follow Snow Savant's argument in the Druid Handbook, might open up some amusing possibilities. You also can wildshape into a bear, then prestidigitation your fur to white, so you 'appear' as a polar bear... for some reason. Mage armor patches up the lack of Wild armor. It has possibilities, and there's a lot of no-sr/save spells like orbs.
Khazra Reborn 11-23-05, 11:21 AM	Totem druid is a scarily good idea, i like it! Although at early levels a druid/wizard would be weak, the fact that you can wildshape into a tiger (the form i strongly suggest*) from first level should make you viable at almost all levels. *unless you can convince your DM that polar bear is ok for bear totem because dire polar bear is obscene!
darthvyce 11-23-05, 12:12 PM	Totem druid is a scarily good idea, i like it! Although at early levels a druid/wizard would be weak, the fact that you can wildshape into a tiger (the form i strongly suggest*) from first level should make you viable at almost all levels. Yeah totem druid is almost to good to be true. :D It gets even better as it improves your wildshape ability at level 7 by granting the celestial template if good or fiendish if evil! As for the polar bear it is a great choice and one that my dm would most likely allow, however. I like the whole great cat theme and I love pounce! Especially combined with wraithstrike. :) So here is a draft of my final build: race:elf wiz 3/totem (tiger) drd 3/hierophant 10/theurge 4 bab 12 cl(wiz) 17 cl(drd) 17 (20) saves 8/6/17 feats terrain specialist (flaw) (dragon 329) practised caster (drd) craft wondrous item precise shot point blank shot spell focus (conj) augment summoning quicken spell natural bond scribe scroll (b) This will allow him to be a decent archer/ranged touch attacker along with the ability to summon some seriously powerful aid when required. He should get good mileage out of the quicken spell feat as well. Finally he'll be able to create some very useful items via craft wondrous items feat. When possible he will have either a dire lion or dire tiger. I will have to calculate which is a better familiar companion at 20th lvl. Does this look good?
El_Machinae 11-23-05, 12:49 PM	You know, getting at least one Wizard level early might not be too bad. Druid 1/Wizard 1 might not be so bad, since you can get a couple buffing type spells off of the wizard list (Mage armour and sheild would go a long way while wild shaped.). Then go up to Druid 5 before going back out again. It's still painful, I think.
Prominence 11-23-05, 12:59 PM	feats terrain specialist (flaw) (dragon 329) practised caster (drd) craft wondrous item precise shot point blank shot spell focus (conj) augment summoning quicken spell natural bond scribe scroll (b) Practised spellcaster - understandable, but how many save spells are you casting? Do you go up against SR so much that you absolutely need it? CWI - always good, but it will rely on you being a level lower a lot of the time, which is harsh for any dual-caster build. Precise/PBS - what are you smoking? suggested revisions - Precise Shot / Point Blank Shot + Exalted Wildshape + Fell drain, or sudden maximize (Read Druid's Handbook) Consider also getting dragon wildshape and an amulet of wildshape so you're still decent at wildshaping. I'd axe CWI considering you NEED levels. Natural Bond... I'm not sure on AH's companion progression. It feels weak though. If you're considering epic, you're going to need 3 metamagic feats.
darthvyce 11-23-05, 01:21 PM	Precise/PBS - what are you smoking? suggested revisions - Precise Shot / Point Blank Shot + Exalted Wildshape + Fell drain, or sudden maximize (Read Druid's Handbook) I know that its not the best choice but the reason for the above feats is that this character will be using a plethora of ranged attack spells(all the orb spells, scorching ray, and my favourite splinterbolt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a)). I know that is sounds insane but there is a method to my madness. :crazy: Consider also getting dragon wildshape and an amulet of wildshape so you're still decent at wildshaping. I'd axe CWI considering you NEED levels. DM does not allow the use of that feat. :( Natural Bond... I'm not sure on AH's companion progression. It feels weak though. Hierophant is full companion progression. I require natural bond so that I can get a dire tiger familiar companion. :dancin: If you're considering epic, you're going to need 3 metamagic feats. D'oh *slaps forehead* I forgot about this. Mmm I will have to think about this.
Prominence 11-23-05, 01:27 PM	I know that its not the best choice but the reason for the above feats is that this character will be using a plethora of ranged attack spells(all the orb spells, scorching ray, and my favourite splinterbolt). I know that is sounds insane but there is a method to my madness. The thing is, wildshape should get you more than enough dex for this to where you don't need the feats, and it frees up stuff for sudden maximize quillblast, or fell drain decomposition. It's really trying to spread yourself too thin. Ray stuff is nice, but those feats dont help your conjuration. Likewise for the vice-versa. Try specializing a little more or taking feats (such as metamagics) that enhance both.
darthvyce 11-23-05, 01:40 PM	The thing is, wildshape should get you more than enough dex for this to where you don't need the feats, and it frees up stuff for sudden maximize quillblast, or fell drain decomposition Quillblast is hands down one of the most powerfull and vicious spells ever. :evillaugh I wonder how many times I will be able to use it before my dm bans it's use. I will have to contemplate dropping those feats for maximize spell and something else.
KiDevil 11-23-05, 03:12 PM	Am I missing something here but don't you need to take natural spell if you want to cast in wildshape?
darthvyce 11-23-05, 03:37 PM	Am I missing something here but don't you need to take natural spell if you want to cast in wildshape? Totem druid 2 grants natural spell as a bonus feat.
nachtmeister 11-23-05, 04:34 PM	have my eyes on this :D
Endarire 11-23-05, 05:02 PM	From what sources are totem druid and the divine minion template? I saw nothing of this stuff from d20.org. -EE
catharz 11-23-05, 06:35 PM	You could make a fairly awesome nonstandard AH with Mounted Combat, Ride-By, Spirited, Trample, & Cavalry Charger. Your mount is both in intelligent and gets a lot of feats. Get it Knockback, Shock Trooper, etc. Karmic Strike if it has enough slots. Then just buff away with your spells.
Prominence 11-23-05, 09:47 PM	Divine Minion is dieties and demigods I think (or one of the planes books). Although I suggested it, it's hideously broken in my opinion.
jpowers22 11-24-05, 12:46 AM	Human Druid/Wizard(Conjurer) (Oppossed to Enchantment/Illusion) Feats: 1st Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Natural Bond 3rd Rapid Spell 6th Extend Spell 9th Empower Spell 12th Natural Spell 15th Fell Weaken 18th Fell Drain Flaw: Beastly(Dragon Magazine) 1st Level Druid 1 Animal Companion(War Dog), Nature Sense, Wild Empathy 2nd Level Wizard 1 Summon Familiar(Weasel), Scribe Scroll 3rd Level Druid 2 Woodland stride 4th Level Wizard 2 5th Level Druid 3 Trackless step 6th Level Wizard 3 7th Level Mystic Theurge 1 8th Level Mystic Theurge 2 9th Level Arcane Heirophant 1 Companion Familiar, Ignore Arcane Spell Failure 10th Level Arcane Heirophant 2 (Wild Shape 1/day) 11th Level Arcane Heirophant 3 (Wild Shape 2/day) 12th Level Arcane Heirophant 4 (Wildshape 3/day), Channel Animal 2/day 13th Level Arcane Heirophant 5 (Wildshape Large) 14th Level Arcane Heirophant 6 Channel Plant 1/day 15th Level Arcane Heirophant 7 (Wildshape 4/day) 16th Level Arcane Heirophant 8 (Wildshape Tiny), Channel Animal 4/day 17th Level Arcane Heirophant 9 (Wildshapre Plant) 18th Level Arcane Heirophant 10 Channel Plant 2/day 19th Level Mystic Theurge 3 20th Level Mystic Theurge 4 This is the next character Im going to play, with this progression. Ill let you know how it works out(im a little worried about early levels, but we will see) Hopefully the Summoning mastery can get me to wildshape. Im trying to keep as close to core, race books(no RoE, or Faerun), and complete series as possible(and yes I know fell drain/weaken are from LM(but thats a long ways away).
Dark_and_Stormy 11-24-05, 01:03 AM	Where is this damn Totem Druid of which you speak? WildShape to Tiger @ Level 1? Natural Spell for Free? Surely you jest, m'lord.
jpowers22 11-24-05, 02:03 AM	I read it this afternoon Its in dragon 335(I think). First off I think its broke, and doesn't work without major clarifications. Totem Wildshape functions exactly as wildshape except you can only wildshape into your totem animal. The part that got me was the exactly like wildshape. Meaning that you'd still have to follow the normal hit dice and size restrictions of wildshape. Meaning that although you could pick Tiger Totem Druid, you couldn't actually wild shape into a tiger until 6th level. All of the totem animals(besides eagle), are at least 2 HDs, meaning by strict interpratation you couldnt shape into them until level 2.
AllistairAldred 11-24-05, 02:52 AM	How do these guys do as nuke platforms...i havent played a nuke platform yet, and this looks like with the right spell choice it has potential....
darthvyce 11-24-05, 09:14 AM	Just to clarify ... Divine minion is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a). Totem druid is in Dragon 335 (pg87). You could make a fairly awesome nonstandard AH with Mounted Combat, Ride-By, Spirited, Trample, & Cavalry Charger. Your mount is both in intelligent and gets a lot of feats. Get it Knockback, Shock Trooper, etc. Karmic Strike if it has enough slots. Then just buff away with your spells. Yeah this is rather clever and something that I was thinking about as well. I thought a charger type build coupled with a contingencied tensers/nightstalker could result in some ridiculous damage. The only problem is that if I go with a dire tiger @ 20th lvl I will not get any bonus feats as my effective companion druid level is only 16. :( Human Druid/Wizard(Conjurer) (Oppossed to Enchantment/Illusion) Feats: 1st Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Natural Bond 3rd Rapid Spell 6th Extend Spell 9th Empower Spell 12th Natural Spell 15th Fell Weaken 18th Fell Drain ... This is a nice build! You could also try checking out the conjurer variant in UA. I believe that you have the option of swapping out scribe scroll for augment summoning. I read it this afternoon Its in dragon 335(I think). First off I think its broke, and doesn't work without major clarifications... Yeah it is on the slightly unbalanced side o things but meh it states right on the magazine that it is 100% official. :D As for the wild shaping ability I am sure that this is an exception to the normal rule. I believe it is due to the fact that you are limiting yourself to only one form. Thus, you are able to assume a stronger wild shaped form far faster than normal. How do these guys do as nuke platforms...i havent played a nuke platform yet, and this looks like with the right spell choice it has potential.... I would think that they could do extremely well. By choosing carefully you could utilize spells that don't even allow saves and/or bypass SR(all of the orb spells are great for this). I think a fun combo would be quillblast + any other damaging spell. You could also get a lot of mileage out of quicken spell, empower spell and maximize spell. Or as jpowers22 pointed out above the metamagic feats in LM could be very usefull as well. Mmm this just gave me an idea what if you could obtain the necropolitan template and then pick up corrupted wildshape. :plotting: What do you all think of a BBEG necropolitan hierophant with corrupted wildshape!! Is there a feat that changes a druids companion to undead?
El_Machinae 11-24-05, 11:04 AM	I don't have my books now ... is there a way to get an Arcane Heirophant mixed in with a Nar Demonbinder? The synergy with Spell Focus (conjuration) would be nice. Does a planar druid allow you to mimic Summon Monster?
zivpeled 11-24-05, 12:23 PM	i would sugest you to use precocios apprentice at first level so you can build it like this : wiz 1/druid 3/MT 4/AH10/MT 2
darthvyce 11-24-05, 12:26 PM	I don't have my books now ... is there a way to get an Arcane Heirophant mixed in with a Nar Demonbinder? The synergy with Spell Focus (conjuration) would be nice. Does a planar druid allow you to mimic Summon Monster? I would not mix the two classes. Although there is some synergy the requirements for the ND make it a very bad choice to mix with hierophant. It would result in a build without high level wizard or druid spells. The only way I can think of mixing ND and hierophant is with the build below. You would need human paragon in order to obtain know(planes) as a class skill. Lastly you will also have to burn a feat on extra spell in order to obtain summon monster (this is also a req of ND). So you would end up with the following: druid5/human paragon3/nar demonbinder2/hierophant10 bab 13 cl(drd) 17 cl(ND) 12 saves 8/5/17 Note: another option is to use ruathar(RoW) instead of human paragon if it grants know(planes).
El_Machinae 11-24-05, 01:46 PM	So we need Know (the Planes) and Summon Monster, right? Other than the requirements, I don't really see a problem with using it as part of Arcane Heirophant. Is there a minimum arcane caster level (or spell level) to get into Heirophant? Cause that would ruin everything.
darthvyce 11-24-05, 02:14 PM	So we need Know (the Planes) and Summon Monster, right? Other than the requirements, I don't really see a problem with using it as part of Arcane Heirophant. Is there a minimum arcane caster level (or spell level) to get into Heirophant? Cause that would ruin everything. I believe you also require intimidate 5 and sense motive xx. The main issue I have with combining ND and AH is that you cannot attain 9th lvl spells for both wiz and drd. When trying to incorporate ND you lose out on this extremely powerful versitility. Another issue is the small spell list that ND has.
El_Machinae 11-24-05, 02:22 PM	Yeah, I see that. My idea with ND is to dilute the druidic power as little as possible. Because to get 9th level wiz spells, you have to dilute the druid something fierce, which I don't like doing. If we could one-level dip into ND before going into Heriophant, then the druidic power is not diluted nearly as much.
darthvyce 11-24-05, 02:39 PM	Yeah, I see that. My idea with ND is to dilute the druidic power as little as possible. Because to get 9th level wiz spells, you have to dilute the druid something fierce, which I don't like doing. If we could one-level dip into ND before going into Heriophant, then the druidic power is not diluted nearly as much. Try this .... Human drd6/paragon3/ND1/hierophant10 bab 13 cl(drd) 18 cl(ND) 11 saves 9/6/17 This gives you the full casting potential of both AH and ND! :) It also grants you an animal companion lvl of 16(just enough for a dire tiger) and a familiar lvl of 11(ND grants familiar at first lvl). Your wild shaping will be equal to a drd16 so you will be able to wild shape into dire tiger as well. By using human paragon you will be able to meet the skill requirements of ND without to much hassle. You'll also have powerful summonings as well as planar croonies via the planar binding spells that ND receives(well I'm pretty sure they have them on their spell list). :D
Caelic 11-24-05, 02:53 PM	i would sugest you to use precocios apprentice at first level so you can build it like this : wiz 1/druid 3/MT 4/AH10/MT 2 ...except that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for this, as has been demonstrated numerous times.
Kilo24 11-24-05, 05:48 PM	Druid 13/Chameleon 1/AH 6 is a nice build; you need to be a human, however. It grants you every ability of a 19th level druid and 14th caster level of any arcane spells 5th level or below (if you get a bonus spell of that level.) According to the wording of Arcane Hierophant, I believe your companion should get familiar abilities even if your original spellcasting class didn't have one, thus granting you a few more abilities Another one would be Druid 8/Bard 1/Chameleon 1/AH 10 for a caster level 22 of 6th level arcane spells and 18th level druid abilities. Bard could be replaced by Human Paragon or any PrC for a 6th level druid that gives Knowledge:Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise as class skills like Ardent Dilletante. If there was a way to make Knowledge:Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise class skills, you could eliminate that bard level. Anyone know of one? IIRC, Gatekeeper Druid Initiate (or whatever the feat was) gave Bluff as a class skill and Education would give you Knowledge: Arcana, but what about Disguise? And would it be worth taking 3 feats to do it? Edit: The above builds won't work unless you get some way of casting 2nd level arcane spells not from chameleon. Alternative Spell Source or Southern Magician are your options.
Gerdreg 11-25-05, 07:21 AM	I don't believe anything Chameleon gives you can be used to meet the requirements of a PrC so even with another source for 2nd level spells, I don't think a PrC can expand your Chameleon casting.
darthvyce 11-25-05, 08:58 AM	...except that Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for this, as has been demonstrated numerous times. Agreed. Even when this feat was initially introduced my group did not allow it to replace a casting requirement. After all you are able to cast a spell like ability not actually cast the required 2nd lvl spells per se. At least thats how we look at it. Druid 13/Chameleon 1/AH 6 is a nice build; you need to be a human, however. It grants you every ability of a 19th level druid and 14th caster level of any arcane spells 5th level or below (if you get a bonus spell of that level.) According to the wording of Arcane Hierophant, I believe your companion should get familiar abilities even if your original spellcasting class didn't have one, thus granting you a few more abilities Another one would be Druid 8/Bard 1/Chameleon 1/AH 10 for a caster level 22 of 6th level arcane spells and 18th level druid abilities. Bard could be replaced by Human Paragon or any PrC for a 6th level druid that gives Knowledge:Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise as class skills like Ardent Dilletante. If there was a way to make Knowledge:Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise class skills, you could eliminate that bard level. Anyone know of one? IIRC, Gatekeeper Druid Initiate (or whatever the feat was) gave Bluff as a class skill and Education would give you Knowledge: Arcana, but what about Disguise? And would it be worth taking 3 feats to do it? Edit: The above builds won't work unless you get some way of casting 2nd level arcane spells not from chameleon. Alternative Spell Source or Southern Magician are your options. Some nice builds, however. I wouldn't mix druid and bard together especially when Fochluran Lyrist is available!:) Unless of course you are using it as an entry requirement for Chameleon. I don't think hierophant grants a familiar it simply stacks for the purpose of level dependant abilities. I will verify this when I get home tonight. Quick question for all the uber maxers here ... is there any feat that grants/changes an animal compion to an undead creature? Something similar to corrupted wildshape(this allows an undead creature use of the wild shape ability if it has it.) The reason why I ask is that I want to stat up a truly powerful BBEG which will be a necropolitan hierophant with corrupted wildshape!! Any help is appreciated.:D
Gerdreg 11-25-05, 12:17 PM	Quick question for all the uber maxers here ... is there any feat that grants/changes an animal compion to an undead creature? Something similar to corrupted wildshape(this allows an undead creature use of the wild shape ability if it has it.) The reason why I ask is that I want to stat up a truly powerful BBEG which will be a necropolitan hierophant with corrupted wildshape!! Any help is appreciated.:D As you are the DM, you could allow your BBEG to apply the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat to his Companion Familiar.
darthvyce 11-25-05, 12:47 PM	As you are the DM, you could allow your BBEG to apply the Stitched Flesh Familiar feat to his Companion Familiar. Oh thats devious! Thanks for the idea Gerdreg I think it would work perfectly. Sure that might be a very small bending of the rules but overall it makes perfect sense. Mmm maybe I should start another thread to optimize this fellow. Actually I think I will make the BBEG a female with a flare for all things fashion. Yup thats right she is gonna have a dire poodle with a highly fashionable, and expensive, pink doggy "coat" on ... that matches hers of course. :cool: Now, I wonder how I can stat up a dire spell stitched poodle.
Kilo24 11-25-05, 12:59 PM	Some nice builds, however. I wouldn't mix druid and bard together especially when Fochluran Lyrist is available!:) Unless of course you are using it as an entry requirement for Chameleon. I don't think hierophant grants a familiar it simply stacks for the purpose of level dependant abilities. I will verify this when I get home tonight. The bard level was only there for the Knowledge: Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise as class skills to qualify for Chameleon before 13th level. The Fochlusian Lyrist still requires evasion, 13 skill ranks in perform to work, and it doesn't have wildshape progression. It does have strong reflex saves which are useful for shoring up druid weaknesses and full BAB, however. It can be replaced with another level of a class that grants them as class skills, but Ardent Dilletente is the only one I found with easy requirements and good bonuses (strong reflex saves, all skills as class skills combined with Able Learner, 6+int skill points.) Anyway, the major advantages of chameleon as the arcane spellcasting class are the high caster level (double in comparison to a normal spellcaster) and the unrestricted access to arcane spells. You don't get the ability to cast spells higher than 7th level (barring negotiation with the DM for epic chameleon speelcasting) , don't qualify for arcane hierophant by chameleon spellcasting, and don't get any BAB. As for the familiar, you lose any familiar when you become an Arcane Hierophant. Also, your animal companion gains the abilities of a familiar of a master of your AH level + your arcane spellcasting class level. Note that it is not "in exchange for your familiar" or "instead of your familiar". You'd get the bonuses.
darthvyce 11-25-05, 02:41 PM	The bard level was only there for the Knowledge: Arcana, Bluff, and Disguise as class skills to qualify for Chameleon before 13th level. The Fochlusian Lyrist still requires evasion, 13 skill ranks in perform to work, and it doesn't have wildshape progression. It does have strong reflex saves which are useful for shoring up druid weaknesses and full BAB, however. It can be replaced with another level of a class that grants them as class skills, but Ardent Dilletente is the only one I found with easy requirements and good bonuses (strong reflex saves, all skills as class skills combined with Able Learner, 6+int skill points.) Oh. Ok, I thought that the bard levels were probably for requirements. I think you are correct Ardent Dilletente would most likely be the only useful prc to use as a replacement. Anyway, the major advantages of chameleon as the arcane spellcasting class are the high caster level (double in comparison to a normal spellcaster) and the unrestricted access to arcane spells. You don't get the ability to cast spells higher than 7th level (barring negotiation with the DM for epic chameleon speelcasting) , don't qualify for arcane hierophant by chameleon spellcasting, and don't get any BAB. I'll take 9th lvl drd/wiz spells over a high caster level any day. Even if SR were an issue there are plenty of spells with no save/sr. :)
jpowers22 11-26-05, 12:14 AM	Also assay resistance from complete arcane is a really, really good spell.
Kilo24 11-26-05, 12:58 PM	I'll take 9th lvl drd/wiz spells over a high caster level any day. Even if SR were an issue there are plenty of spells with no save/sr. :) I agree. However, it's not just caster level- it's wildshaping, early to midgame power, complete arcane spell access (Otto's Irresistible Dance anyone?), animal companion levels, a large boost to skills and a reflex save advantage that you're giving up for 7th-9th level wizard spells. At the higher levels, I think that a mystic theurge spellcaster build is better overall. But until mystic theurge/AH really kicks in during mid-high levels, you're left with a very diluted druid (unless you make use of Alternative Spell Source, Improved Sigil: Krau, or Southern Magician.) And your skills still suck. I don't really think Nar Demonbinder is worth it in AH builds. It has accelerated spellcasting, yes, but only to 8th level, with a very poor spell list, requires copious amounts of cross-class skills (Knowledge: the planes will be cross-class for most of your career), and requires two feats (one subpar, the other pretty much forcing a good COer to take Augment Summoning.) Actually, you could get a very high caster level with it (36 caster level in your example.) Myself, I'd rather take chameleon or just take wizard. Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if ur-priest or sublime chord can be fit into a good AH build.
darthvyce 11-26-05, 02:14 PM	I agree. However, it's not just caster level- it's wildshaping, early to midgame power, complete arcane spell access (Otto's Irresistible Dance anyone?), animal companion levels, a large boost to skills and a reflex save advantage that you're giving up for 7th-9th level wizard spells. At the higher levels, I think that a mystic theurge spellcaster build is better overall. But until mystic theurge/AH really kicks in during mid-high levels, you're left with a very diluted druid (unless you make use of Alternative Spell Source, Improved Sigil: Krau, or Southern Magician.) And your skills still suck. Most of what you say above is true, this is one of the reasons why I chose to use the totem druid variant. This allows you to shore up many of the shortcomings that you listed above (except of course the reflex save). As for skills this should not prove to much of an issue as you should have a relatively high intelligence and the AH receives 4+int skill points per level. As far as the animal companion is concerned using my build above(wiz 3/totem druid(tiger) 3/MT4/AH10) you would have an effective druid level of 15 (totem druid increases your lvl by 2 for your totem animal) if you take natural bond you could then have a dire tiger animal companion. Which is one of the best. :) Due to the totem druid's excelerated wild shaping you will be able to assume the form of a dire tiger by level 10, IIRC. This is of course an exception to the normal rules re max hd. Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if ur-priest or sublime chord can be fit into a good AH build. Mmm that could prove interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing an AH build that uses the above prc's. I wonder what sort of spellcasting you could get using ur-priest/sublime chord?