Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tweedledope 02-17-05, 04:31 PM	I would really like to see some Arcane Hierophant builds but, is it just me or is this the "ultimate" Druid PrC? You get all of your Wildshape you previously possessed and then some. You also keep all of your spells. The only downside is that your HD go down to a D6. You also gain all the benefits of a Familiar AND an Animal Companion. You also are allowed to wear all "Armor allowed to Druids" and cast your arcane spells. This class is WAY overpowered in my book but, I really like it (and the 6 pages of text about it). So, any good builds out there?
Interested2 02-17-05, 04:49 PM	Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 was mentioned in a different thread. 9th level arcane and divine spells, wild shape, etc.
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 04:52 PM	is this a Races of the Wild prc?
Interested2 02-17-05, 04:55 PM	Yes.
necrosnoop110 02-17-05, 05:04 PM	I swear somebody at WotC sold their soul to a Druid. As if Druids didn't all ready rule the roost! :tantrum: :banghead: :censored: :twitch: :tantrum: Necro
catharz 02-17-05, 05:13 PM	I swear somebody at WotC sold their soul to a Druid. As if Druids didn't all ready rule the roost! :tantrum: :banghead: :censored: :twitch: :tantrum: Necro I haven't seen the PrC, but I dowbt it will make non-epic druids any more powerful. If anything, is will make them weaker for foolishly trying to become multicasters. It dies sound pretty cool though, and a great option for an offbeat Gish.
El_Machinae 02-17-05, 05:13 PM	I mentioned it in my "bribing the druid" thread - on paper it looks really good. At the same time, is it worth putting three levels into wizard? Maybe, but I don't know. My group might try it out (currently the druid is 8th level) - I expect the next three levels to be really rough, especially since the druid already took Scribe Scroll.
Interested2 02-17-05, 05:13 PM	Hmm,what would I get for said sale? If it's a nice set of bookends, maybe.... ;)
Wrathamon 02-17-05, 06:36 PM	well there isnt that many PRC's druids... so I guess it was a bone. But, yes druids are very powerful as is.
Evadyn the second 02-17-05, 06:41 PM	But, yes druids are very powerful as is. No they are not! Everyone else is just weak! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
Tweedledope 02-17-05, 09:32 PM	Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 was mentioned in a different thread. 9th level arcane and divine spells, wild shape, etc. I like this build as it minimizes the leave from Druid. However, do you have any good feat suggestions aside from the obvious Natural Spell? -=Tweedledope=-
Michael Tree 02-17-05, 10:14 PM	Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 was mentioned in a different thread. 9th level arcane and divine spells, wild shape, etc. Don't you need to have Wild Shape from druid levels to gain more wild shape from AH levels?
necrosnoop110 02-17-05, 10:17 PM	Don't you need to have Wild Shape from druid levels to gain more wild shape from AH levels? If you don't have Wild Shape the AH levels grant you manifester levels as if you were a Psion. Necro
PhaedrusXY 02-17-05, 10:36 PM	If you don't have Wild Shape the AH levels grant you manifester levels as if you were a Psion. NecroIs this a joke? :heehee either way. ;)
necrosnoop110 02-17-05, 10:47 PM	Is this a joke? :heehee either way. ;) It may be true it may be not be true, I haven’t seen the source book yet but I wouldn't be surprised if the Arcane Hierophant granted it to the all holy Druid! :nonono: Necro
tear_of_primus 02-17-05, 11:04 PM	I currently have a Drd3/Wiz3/MT1 so I'm quite happy with what I've heard of the AH. I know Wild Shape is a good ability, but I was really just looking for going with a MT with a different flavour than a Cleric/Wizard. But I don't think it grants Wildshape without having the ability from being a Druid already.
Interested2 02-18-05, 07:17 AM	I'm not sure either. Thats taken, as I said, from another thread. I haven't ordered Races of the Wild yet. :(
Rara Avis 02-26-05, 12:24 PM	But I don't think it grants Wildshape without having the ability from being a Druid already. If you have levels in druid, then you are granted wild shape. Only if you are a class like ranger is when you don't get it. I'm amazed how i'm not seeing enough feedback concerning this PrC. It is insane. Sure you lose out on some elemental wildshapes and other abilities, but who cares, you can cast shape change and an assortment of spells via 9th level druid/8th level wizard. You have all the goodies of both a wizard and a druid and much, much more, and we haven't added any feats yet. Is it that the wiz3/druid3/at10/mt4 build that solid. IMO, me thinks this could be the best build or has the potential of becoming one, with some tweaking. Viva los druids! Son muy excellente. Edit: Hey Snow, if you're out there, you know druids better than most, what do you think? Do we have the technology? Can we make it better? <million dollar man theme song starts>
necrosnoop110 02-26-05, 12:45 PM	Is it possible to go Sorcerer X/ Druid 3/ AH 10/ MT X or some such arrangement? Necro
Caelic 02-26-05, 01:25 PM	Possible, yep. You won't wind up with level 9 spells in both categories if you do, but it's possible. Keep in mind, guys, that this is another of those classes that sounds just swell...if you look at the 20th level end product. If you look at the character at sixth level...or seventh, or eighth...well, he purely blows chunks. The class is only truly powerful at high levels, and thus only unbalanced if you let the player circumvent the lower levels.
saucercrab 02-26-05, 03:14 PM	Rara Avis, Ya' know, the first sentence of the Wild Shape ability from arcane hierophant seems to conflict with the rest of it:If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape.A 3rd level druid doesn't possess the ability to wild shape, so he should not be able to advance the ability in AH. Just some minor semantic nonsense, though. And the ranger example is invalid because rangers don't even get Trackless Step. Other than the druid, how else can you get Trackless Step? Maybe the requirement is supposed to be Woodland Stride? That's one level away from 2nd level spells for both classes. Balance-wise, I think the class is a bit on the mucho-side. The designers could've at least reduced skill points to 2 + Int per level & reduced the BAB to poor.
Rara Avis 02-27-05, 12:35 PM	Rara Avis, Ya' know, the first sentence of the Wild Shape ability from arcane hierophant seems to conflict with the rest of it:A 3rd level druid doesn't possess the ability to wild shape, so he should not be able to advance the ability in AH. Just some minor semantic nonsense, though. And the ranger example is invalid because rangers don't even get Trackless Step. Other than the druid, how else can you get Trackless Step? Maybe the requirement is supposed to be Woodland Stride? That's one level away from 2nd level spells for both classes. The example the book uses states that the AH PrC will stack with the Drd class, even if you didn't get the wildshape ability yet. So Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH2 would be granted wildshape as if he/she were a 5th level druid (Drd3+AH2), hence getting wildshape 1/day, "S"&"M" animals, for 5 hours. You don't need to have the pre-req of wildshape to have it, but you do need to be a druid. As for the Ranger, I'm not sure if they get it Trackless Step or not. I don't have the book on hand, but I do know that they will not get the wildshape ability. As for the build being not so good at lower levels, I could see how thats true, but thats why I'm asking if there is anyway to optimize it besides the already stated builds. I do not wish it to be another, IMO, crappy arcane trickster, in the sense of level progression. And also, what would be some good feat progressions for a level 20 build.
RogerWilco 02-27-05, 04:36 PM	I just want to add a Prerequisite a lot of people seem to miss: Attack bonus+4. This puts the AH out of reach of a Drd3/Wiz3. Therefore you either need a level of MT (no wildshape) or Drd4/Wiz3 for maximum wildshape or Drd3/Wiz4 for maximum arcane (Drd3/Wiz3/MT1 ?) or Sor4/Drd3 would also work. The examples all use Drd4/Wiz3
Jafar 02-27-05, 05:25 PM	If you look at the character at sixth level...or seventh, or eighth...well, he purely blows chunks. The class is only truly powerful at high levels, and thus only unbalanced if you let the player circumvent the lower levels. I disagree. Granted if you take the MT route you're right. However, the build I see is Druid 7/Wizard 3/AH 10. A simple 20 level build that grants 9th-level divine and 7th-level arcane spells and loses minimal wildshaping. Levels 1- 7: You're a druid plain and simple Level 8+: You're a wildshaped druid with access to arcane spells and no ASF. It can only get better. Feats: 1st: Spell Focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning 3rd: Extend Spell 6th: Natural Spell 9th: Empower Spell 12th: Energy Substitution (sonic/acid) 15th: Persistent Spell 18th: Energy Admixture
El_Machinae 02-27-05, 07:56 PM	What we're going to try to see is if a Druid 7 (and then Wiz 1,2, and 3) can hold itself up in a 10th level party. Basically, can the Druid support itself during the weak Wizard levels.
Borin 02-27-05, 08:10 PM	What we're going to try to see is if a Druid 7 (and then Wiz 1,2, and 3) can hold itself up in a 10th level party. Basically, can the Druid support itself during the weak Wizard levels. I think a druid7 is not that bad in a 10th level party, but a druid10 would've been so much better at that level. You definately lose out at the interval between druid en AH. Large wildshape at 8th for example.
saucercrab 02-28-05, 08:10 PM	The example the book uses states that the AH PrC will stack with the Drd class, even if you didn't get the wildshape ability yet. So Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH2 would be granted wildshape as if he/she were a 5th level druid (Drd3+AH2), hence getting wildshape 1/day, "S"&"M" animals, for 5 hours. You don't need to have the pre-req of wildshape to have it, but you do need to be a druid.Like I said, minor semantic nonsense; the first sentence doesn't totally jive with the rest of the text. As for the Ranger, I'm not sure if they get it Trackless Step or not. I don't have the book on hand, but I do know that they will not get the wildshape ability.They don't get Trackless Step. I made sure to look it up before I posted. Makes that example a bit hinky. Woodland Stride makes a bit more sense, IMO.
Rara Avis 02-28-05, 08:58 PM	Like I said, minor semantic nonsense; the first sentence doesn't totally jive with the rest of the text. They don't get Trackless Step. I made sure to look it up before I posted. Makes that example a bit hinky. Woodland Stride makes a bit more sense, IMO. Semantic nonsense, yes...but it still implies that you could wildshape as a treehugging Druid since the levels stacked for that purpose. That alone cannot be denied. As for the ranger, who really cares now... they still can't wildshape. I disagree. Granted if you take the MT route you're right. However, the build I see is Druid 7/Wizard 3/AH 10. A simple 20 level build that grants 9th-level divine and 7th-level arcane spells and loses minimal wildshaping. Levels 1- 7: You're a druid plain and simple Level 8+: You're a wildshaped druid with access to arcane spells and no ASF. It can only get better. Jafar, I would have to disagree and agree with you. Yes, it might be better but where are my 8th and 9th level wizard spells. I looked at the build again and contemplated a way to keep the spell progression intact and realized that the iconic build (Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH10/MT2) is fine. We just have to capitalize on the druid's other strengths, such as spontaneous nature's ally. Let your companion and summons do all the work till you reach AH. The trick I think is in choosing the right feat selections during the early levels. As Jafar suggested, Spell Focus:Conj+Animal Companion is a given, but what else. Human is a must to reserve the 3rd level slot for something else. I thought Ashbound but in the text it stated that magic is considered vile and unatural, which goes against this build. However, those three feats may also match well with Practiced Spellcaster which also keeps the summons duration longer and spellcasting power up to par. I'm pretty sure that there is one more thing that could help augment our allies to maybe add to you 6th level feat slot. Don't forget, you could always get a yourself Summon Monster III+ wand for utility summons. If you have a DM that doesn't mind about Ashbound's flavor text into you character story (such as a AH that uses the forsaken arts to learn, protect his/herself, and rid the world of such vile and unnatural arcane user), then go this way: Human 1-Spell Focus:Conj, Augment Summoning 3-Ashbound 6-Practiced Spellcaster (feats are interchangable if you see fit) 9th is when you finally can get Natural Spell, 12th could be Exalted Wildshape and so and so forth. Its all in the feats if we are going to make this build work without compromising the spell advancement. And don't worry about Elemental wildshapes...remember, you will be able to Shapechange. Unless you are planing on using that broken stacking rule, then it should not matter to you.
Snarf 03-01-05, 01:37 AM	You can't take Natural Spell at 9th with that build, because you don't get Wild Shape until 10th. Personally I'd take Practiced Spellcaster twice. Nothing wrong with ending up with 20th caster level in both classes, and 9th level spells in each. If you're going past 20th you could even take one more level in a non-caster class without any caster level loss. The big loss with the design is the levels of Wild Shape HD cap lost to Wizard and MT. You'll only have 13 HD (at 18th thru 20th). That lessens the impact of feats like Draconic Wildshape. Well, those 9th level Wizard spells are probably a worthwhile trade-off :) The other thing is, if you're proceeding into epic, you won't have any clear path after 26th. MT doesn't progress both caster levels at the same rate as an epic class, so I doubt that AH would either. (Unless that's changed, it was an Epic Insights article I believe that detailed the Epic MT progression.) You might even want to stop MT at 7th (23rd) and pick up a Druid or Wizard PrC...probably a Druid one, although if you could manage to qualify for Archmage so much the better :)
Snarf 03-01-05, 01:46 AM	One other observation: Am I going nuts, or does the AH essentially grant the benefits of the Obtain Familiar feat too? It says that when determining the Companion Familiar's abilities, you use the total arcane spellcaster level, not just levels in Wizard (or Sorceror) + AH...so you could add in MT too! What I'd like to see, just for fun, is mixing this with the feat that lets you combine your Special Mount and Animal Companion...Companion Mount Familiar! I bet you could build quite a powerhouse buddy...and it would be so easily replaceable if lost, given the Companion Familiar rules.
Jafar 03-01-05, 02:44 AM	Jafar, I would have to disagree and agree with you. Yes, it might be better but where are my 8th and 9th level wizard spells. I looked at the build again and contemplated a way to keep the spell progression intact and realized that the iconic build (Drd3/Wiz3/MT2/AH10/MT2) is fine. We just have to capitalize on the druid's other strengths, such as spontaneous nature's ally. Let your companion and summons do all the work till you reach AH. The polls on this board suggest that the druid is the most powerful base class. However, as min/maxers we just have to make it better. AH is a viable option because it progresses all the base qualities of the druid; spellcasting, wildshaping, animal companion and skills. To me, access to arcane spells is a benefit above and beyond. I'm not going to lose any sleep over having a druid that doesn't have access to 8th & 9th level arcane spells. Referring to: Since you should always be choosing from PrC’s with full spellcasting progression the issue becomes—what special abilities does the PrC grant and what special druidic abilities do I lose. Druid 7/Wizard 3/AH 10 loses 2 uses of elemental wildshape/day, the ability to be a Huge elemental and 1 wildshape/day. Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 4/AH 10 loses the ability to use elemental wildshape, can’t upgrade brown bear into dire bear until last level, can’t be a huge wildshape and 2 uses of wildshape/day. The above is based upon a liberal reading of the AH text in regards to wildshaping. IMO, Druid 5 is required for any wildshaping. It explicitly states AH does not grant the ability to wildshape, but if the PC has that ability then AH levels stack to advance wildshape abilities. The Wizard3/MT 4 build also saddles the PC with minimal skill points and a lousy skill list losing spot, listen and survival to name a few. Lastly, I agree with Rara Avis in that; Let your companion and summons do all the work till you reach AH. We can add the familiar to this list. By taking a level of Wizard at 2nd-level, we gain the following: 1) Bonus feat: Scribe Scroll 2) Access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list; wands anyone :) 3) Summon Familiar; a Raven, speaking druidic, wielding any wand :D Change feats to: 1st: Spell focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning 2nd: Scribe Scroll (bonus) 3rd: Natural Bond or Practiced Spellcaster 6th: Natural Spell And then go from there subject to taste :cool:
Rara Avis 03-01-05, 01:33 PM	You can't take Natural Spell at 9th with that build, because you don't get Wild Shape until 10th. Big goof, my fault. I guess that changes everything that I was saying. I don't want to wait more than I have to for Natural spell. The polls on this board suggest that the druid is the most powerful base class. However, as min/maxers we just have to make it better. AH is a viable option because it progresses all the base qualities of the druid; spellcasting, wildshaping, animal companion and skills. To me, access to arcane spells is a benefit above and beyond. I'm not going to lose any sleep over having a druid that doesn't have access to 8th & 9th level arcane spells. Excellent point Jafar! I understand that Druid is a awesome base class (I play one all the time), just would have been nice to to max out the wizard spellcasting progression while maxing out the druid as well. I'm stubborn so i'm going to keep trying since i do lose sleep when I'm unable to cast high level wizard goodies. I just got the Complete Arcane so my search will begin there. Summon Familiar; a Raven, speaking druidic, wielding any wand My DM would count that as a violation and lose the class benefits since Druids are not allowed to teach the language. Cool idea though. 1st: Spell focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning 2nd: Scribe Scroll (bonus) 3rd: Natural Bond or Practiced Spellcaster 6th: Natural Spell I forgot about Natural Bond. Good call.
samoosa691 03-01-05, 02:12 PM	stupid question but where is arcane hiropheant located? what book?
RogerWilco 03-01-05, 02:25 PM	stupid question but where is arcane hiropheant located? what book? The Arcane Hierophant is in Masters of the Wild p.108-113. Would you in return know where to find Natural Bond? Edit: Hmm, that should be Races of the Wild not Masters, sorry
samoosa691 03-01-05, 02:30 PM	hmm.., my version stops at 83..
Rara Avis 03-01-05, 02:42 PM	Would you in return know where to find Natural Bond? I believe it is in the Complete Adventure book. As for another build that uses AH, check out Timespike's Build. Arcane Hierophant/Sublime Chord/Green Whisperer.... WHOA. Race: Human Alignment: NG, N, CN, or NE Level 1 Bard 1 Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) Level 2 Bard 2 Level 3 Druid 1 Practiced Spellcaster (Druid) Level 4 Druid 2 Level 5 Druid 3 Level 6 Green Whisperer 1 Track Level 7 Green Whisperer 2 Level 8 Green Whisperer 3 Level 9 Green Whisperer 4 Snowflake Wardance Level 10 Arcane Hierophant 1 Level 11 Sublime Chord 1 Level 12 Arcane Hierophant 2 Natural Spell Level 13 Arcane Hierophant 3 Lavel 14 Arcane Hierophant 4 Level 15 Arcane Hierophant 5 Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord) Level 16 Arcane Hierophant 6 Level 17 Arcane Hierophant 7 Level 18 Arcane Hierophant 8 Feat of Choice Level 19 Arcane Hierophant 9 Level 20 Arcane Hierophant 10 Caster levels: Bard 8(12)(3rd), Druid 17(20)(9th), Sublime Chord 10(20)(9th) BAB: 13 F 10 R 8 W 19 13 Levels of Wildshape (enough for tiny & plant forms) 7 levels of Bardic Music (enough for suggestion) 7 Levels of Bardic Knowledge __________________ Ever Vigilant Ever Prepared Pretty Sweet, right?
Hot Rod 03-16-05, 09:50 AM	One other observation: Am I going nuts, or does the AH essentially grant the benefits of the Obtain Familiar feat too? It says that when determining the Companion Familiar's abilities, you use the total arcane spellcaster level, not just levels in Wizard (or Sorceror) + AH...so you could add in MT too! Actually no, it says you add your AH level to your arcane spellcasting class level. i.e. Wiz or Sorc Now if a bard qualified for AH does he get familiar abilities = his AH level + bard level?!?!?!
LordKiwi 03-16-05, 10:09 AM	Seems to me like entering AH want's to be done with minimal loss of druid level. Might I suggest experimenting with fast progression Arcane Classes. The only one I can think of that fits at the moment is the every present Nar Demonbinder, but there may be others. Druid 9 / Nar Demon Binder 1 / AH 10 You sacrifice 1 level of druid for 4th-8th level arcane spells (perfect fuel for arcane strike) and I think you should get quite a good CL for those blasphemy/holy word spells. Lord Kiwi,
Khazra Reborn 03-16-05, 10:17 AM	If wildshape loss is all your worried about from less druid levels, an amulet of wildshape & bearskin will give you an extra 8 levels of wildshape!
Ramaloke 03-16-05, 12:15 PM	Im suprised nobody mentioned the wizard 1/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 6 build using precocious apprentice to qualify two levels earlier for Arcane Heirophant. You end up with 17th CL for Arcane and 19th CL for divine, and a set of Practiced Spellcaster feats brings you to 20/20. Yeah, your a monster then.
Snarf 03-16-05, 04:30 PM	Im suprised nobody mentioned the wizard 1/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 6 build using precocious apprentice to qualify two levels earlier for Arcane Heirophant. You end up with 17th CL for Arcane and 19th CL for divine, and a set of Practiced Spellcaster feats brings you to 20/20. Yeah, your a monster then. Seems to me that wouldn't meet the BAB requirement. Don't have my books atm tho.
Snarf 03-16-05, 04:30 PM	If wildshape loss is all your worried about from less druid levels, an amulet of wildshape & bearskin will give you an extra 8 levels of wildshape! Can you direct me to the "bearskin" item please? :)
Snarf 03-16-05, 04:34 PM	Actually no, it says you add your AH level to your arcane spellcasting class level. i.e. Wiz or Sorc Now if a bard qualified for AH does he get familiar abilities = his AH level + bard level?!?!?! That's the thing, does it literally mean "your level in the actual class" or "the level at which you cast/know that class's arcane spells?" Most AH's will only have 3 levels of that class, which would make the CF a joke...in fact, after a while, your highest "arcane caster class level" will be MT. In any event, a strict reading would seem to indicate that you can use Bard or MT or whatever to determine the familiar abilities of your CF, even if that class doesn't normally grant a familiar. I don't know if this is intentional or not.
Hot Rod 03-16-05, 08:28 PM	They usually say arcane caster level when thats what they mean, as distinct from arcane class level. i.e. familiar progression uses your class level, MT adds 1 to your arcane caster level (i.e. your wizard caster level), but not to your arcane class level, and is not in itself an arcane class so adds nothing to familiar progression. Sorc, Hexer, Battle Sorc, and Bard have their own spell lists and are therefore arcane caster classes. Also yes, your arcane class level can be 3 yet you can have 20th level caster level from PrC's that add +1 to CL. Its interesting that they take such care that the AH does not grant Wildshape unless the class already gets it, but ignore bards getting familiars (I guess they agree familiars are pretty useless :P j/k ) Not sure what you mean by CF though. I've yet to have a familiar with chart abilities past 7th because of the class/caster thing (Loremaster in a core only campaign). Planar familiar from the WotC Spellbook archive is so great for MC wizzies, emulate it with Limited Wish. The build I'm using for my next character is" Level Feats Class Description BAB HP SkillPts 1 1 Paragon 1 "Adaptive Learning 1 skill stays class skill, (choose any 10 skills), +1 skillpt/lvl, Favored class Any, Ex Feat, Simple Weapons, 1 martial Weapon, light armor prof. Feat (Racial):_Able Learner_ Feat (L1):_Extend_Spell_" 2 1 Wiz 1 Feat:Scribe Scroll, Familiar 3 2 Paragon 2 Feats:_Practiced Caster_(Wizard)_ / Feat:_Spell_Focus_(Conjuration)_ 4 Paragon 3 Ability boost (+2) 5 1 Druid 1 "Req: Some Neutral Alignmen: Grants: Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empahy Feat:_Practiced_Caster_(Druid)_" 6 1 Druid 2 Woodland Stride, Feat:______ 7 Druid 3 Trackless Step 8 AH 1 "Req: Any Nonlawful, BAB +4, Cast 2nd level arcane & divine spells, Trackless Step Class feature Grants: Companion familiar, Ignore ASF (Druid armors), Wild shape progression" 9 1 AH 2 Feat:_Improved_Summoning_ 10 AH 3 11 AH 4 Channel animal 2/day 12 1 AH 5 Feat:_Spontaneous_Healer_ 13 AH 6 Channel Plant 1/day 14 AH 7 15 1 AH 8 Channel animal 4/day, Feat:__________ 16 AH 9 17 AH 10 Channel Plant 2/day I don't think practiced caster is meant to qualify for "can cast second level spells" since it grants you the ability to cast one second level spell, and you can't learn others untill your class gets L2 spells. The fact that this slot becomes an extra slot like the extra slot feat is a bonus though. YMMV however... I'm curious about bearskin as well. Is it an armor enhancement, spell, what book?
Horatio 03-17-05, 08:57 AM	Still no builds containing Bard+Sublime Chord or *the* Lyrist from CV? I'm trying to figure something out, but in the end it always look worse then the usual ones.
Moon-Lancer 03-17-05, 09:06 AM	a buld that may not be awsome but fun to play would be a druid5 bard5 arcane hierophant10 This would be awsome becues you could have a growing fiddle or violin.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 03-17-05, 09:43 AM	Seems to me like entering AH want's to be done with minimal loss of druid level. Might I suggest experimenting with fast progression Arcane Classes. The only one I can think of that fits at the moment is the every present Nar Demonbinder, but there may be others. Druid 9 / Nar Demon Binder 1 / AH 10 You sacrifice 1 level of druid for 4th-8th level arcane spells (perfect fuel for arcane strike) and I think you should get quite a good CL for those blasphemy/holy word spells. Lord Kiwi, :thumbsdow Sorry LK, this suggestion is junk on the boards... A ninth level Druid doesn't qualify for Nar Demonbinder, as they cannot have 10 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) for one thing, and they don't cast summon monster for another. Zeff
Lord Zeb 03-17-05, 12:18 PM	For Sublime Chords....simple build would be: Bard 7 / Druid 3 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Hierophant 9 Cast as a 7th level bard, 10th level sublime chord, 12th level druid. Not really all that super compared to D3 / W3 / MyTh 4 / AH 10, since AH will grant casting in druid armor. An interesting take on this idea could be the "Sublime Arcane Whisperer" Bard 2 / Druid 3 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Hierophant 9 Cast as a 7th lvl bard, 10th level sublime chord, and 17th level druid I like that one more... :cool: ------- For epic play, D 3 / W3 / MyTh 4 / AH 10 as the lead, I'd be interested in picking up 4 more levels of Myth (CL 21 in both Druid and Wiz), then taking 3 levels of archmage and 3 levels of hierophant (the normal one in DMG). 30th level CL 24 in both arcane and divine, archmage and hierophant goodies. Alternatively, Arcane Lord from Dragon (297??) would be awesome in the mid to high 20s. -------- Cheers, Zeb
CompleteSatori 03-17-05, 01:02 PM	Where in the heck IS this Green Whisperer PrC for druids? I am given to understand that it is in one of the Dragon magazines, but which one?
Lord Zeb 03-17-05, 01:15 PM	I can't check right now (not at home), but I believe GW is in Dragon 311.
Caelic 03-17-05, 04:23 PM	Just to make sure we're all on the same page: Precocious Apprentice can't be used to qualify for prestige classes. That was established very shortly after CA came out. Yes, by the RAW, it should work, and, no, they didn't offer a rationale beyond "Because it would be overpowered," but there it is.
Ramaloke 03-17-05, 04:54 PM	well then thats all you need, by RAW it works, thats all. -edit- AFIK the errata doesn't cover it either.
rilem 03-17-05, 05:17 PM	The errata does leave the feat alone. So DMs looking for a proper ruling will have to comb through the boards looking for Rich Baker's explanation. I'd agree with Ramaloke. The rules support this interpretation and the errata didn't touch it. I think it's a stupid oversight, but there it is.
Mucknuggle 03-18-05, 06:48 AM	Guys...where can we find bearskin? A few people have asked already, but their has been no reply.
Hot Rod 03-18-05, 08:08 AM	Actually, Bearskin is in the Races of the Wild p172. Its a specific armor that gives you claws as a free action, +5' reach, and scent for 10 rounds per day. Really good for the price.
Sang-Drax 03-18-05, 10:30 AM	Yeah, but it has nothing to do with Wild Shape, actually... well, anyway, +4 for the Wild Shape amulet is enough.
Hot Rod 03-18-05, 10:52 AM	Well, allowing Precocious apprentice would practically bring back 2nd edition multiclassing when combined with dual caster PrCs. (in 2nd) you would only be 1 or two levels behind the rest of the party if you were multiclassed, rather than half as core 3.0/3.5 would clobber you with. Just look what happened to certain famous FR NPCs. With PA you could be Druid6/Wiz1/AH10 {shudder} :P I'm going to (have to) allow it IMC since I don't accept 'Because Monty/Richard/My Mom says so' as a rule. Also 'Skip says so' only works if its in the sage advice column. Judging by how short that eratta is I'm thinking they're trying to pretend the book was perfect... :P
Sang-Drax 03-18-05, 11:44 AM	Hehehe Well, anyway, the feat is kinda useless if not for the sole reason of using it to qualify for other PrCs.
Abulafia 03-18-05, 01:12 PM	Hehehe Well, anyway, the feat is kinda useless if not for the sole reason of using it to qualify for other PrCs. Not if you only play until level 2. ;)
Expanded Psion 03-18-05, 01:54 PM	Any chance we could add Fochlucan Lyrist in the build?It won't be good pre-epic though but at Epic we're looking at 3 10 lvl classes that advance both Divine and Arcane spellcasting.
Snarf 03-19-05, 02:39 AM	Actually, Bearskin is in the Races of the Wild p172. Its a specific armor that gives you claws as a free action, +5' reach, and scent for 10 rounds per day. Really good for the price. I do like those nifty wild armors...but I don't think this is the "bearskin" that Khazra Reborn was referring to, as the indication was that it was a +4 wild shape HD item. I'd really, really like to know where to find it.
scrollreader 03-19-05, 05:44 AM	I believe it's attached to one of the FR web features. Not really sure, however.
Hranitel 03-22-05, 03:43 PM	I would go for a simple build of: Druid7-Wizard1-Divine Oracle2-Arcane Heirophant10 Divine Oracle can give you the two extra needed arcane caster levels and is seems fairly easy to enter at level 9 with Druid7-Wizard1. This route is better than Wizard3 as you can gain +2 caster level to your arcane class plus +2 caster level on all divination spells (a minor bonus) a better version of evasion (works in medium armor) and the Oracle domain. I would use a Sun elf from FRCS as this gives you a +2 Int (-2 con) and will allow you to use the elf varient wizard level one, which gives you a bonus spell slot at each level as if you were a specialized wizard without giving up any spell schools. :) The -2 con hurts, but you will need to have a high wisdom and a moderately high inteligence so the +2 int helps a lot. While this build can't cast 8th and 9th level wizard spells, neither can a Druid20. He gets an animal companion as if he were a 20th level Druid (with the natural bond feat) with the extra abilities and inteligence of a 13th level wizards familiar (big plus), can cast 9th level Druid spells, ignores arcane spell failure in medium armor, gains the scribe scroll feat and can wildshape as a 17th level druid. I think this build beats a Druid20 as it retains almost all of the core abilities of the Druid class (something no other PrC has done yet). Question: What feats would complete this build? 1. Natural Bond (the one thing the AH improves hands down is the animal companion, so I feel that you might as well maximize this) 2. Natural Spell (let your Companion Familiar slug it out on the ground while you fly around out of reach slinging spells) What else?
catharz 03-22-05, 04:15 PM	I do like those nifty wild armors...but I don't think this is the "bearskin" that Khazra Reborn was referring to, as the indication was that it was a +4 wild shape HD item. I'd really, really like to know where to find it. I remember that it stinks.
Lina_Inverse 03-22-05, 04:53 PM	wizard 1,druid 3,Arcane hierophant 10,Mystheurg 6 precious apprentice baby!
deduke 03-22-05, 06:08 PM	I would go for the solid : Druid 3 Wizard 3 (With UA fighter list variant) Mystic Theurge 2 Arcane Hierophant 10 Mystic Theurge 2 for feats i'd pick 1 Greenbound Summoning 1 Practiced Spellcaster (druid) 3 Naturall Bond 4 Improved Toughness 6 practiced spellcaster (wizard) 9 Arcane Strike 12 Natural Spell 15 Quicken Spell 18 Dragon Wildshape Guess this would be best. Let your animal companion do the dirty work at the low lvl's. Only feat im not sure about is dragon wildshape. regards deDuke
Hranitel 03-22-05, 07:51 PM	While I would like to have 9th level Arcane and 9th level Druid spells at 20th level, I think that the loss of 7 wildshape and 7 animal companion levels due to using MT-4 is not really worth it. If you lose out on 7 druid levels for your animal companion, you'll end up doing what most people do with their familiars - forget they are even there. Using wildshape is somewhat similar, in that if you are using a lower HD form in combat, you'll probably wish you just stayed in your normal form. I would focus on either an arcane build that throws in 13 effective druid levels for variety or a Druid build that throws in some arcane abilities. Going for both can make an okay 20th level build but until then, I don't see it being a whole lot of fun to play.
CompleteSatori 03-22-05, 10:06 PM	I remember seeing Precocious Apprentice, but I cannot remember where, and I don't see it in Complete Arcane.
thorian 03-22-05, 10:26 PM	I remember seeing Precocious Apprentice, but I cannot remember where, and I don't see it in Complete Arcane. Complete Arcane, pg. 181, in the sidebar.
desertdruid 03-23-05, 09:08 AM	The Amulet of Wildshape is a Wondrous Item in Magic of Faerun.
Hranitel 03-23-05, 11:23 AM	I believe Rich Baker expounded on the Percosious Apprentice feat to say that it did not count towards spellcasting prereqs. Some on this board did not like the fact that he couldn't come up with a better reason than that it would be broken if it worked in such a way, so have chosen to ignore it.
Sang-Drax 03-23-05, 01:33 PM	I believe Rich Baker expounded on the Percosious Apprentice feat to say that it did not count towards spellcasting prereqs. Some on this board did not like the fact that he couldn't come up with a better reason than that it would be broken if it worked in such a way, so have chosen to ignore it. It's not just that.... not ontly didn't hw come with a better explanation than "It's not possible because I say so", but there's nothing concerning the subject in the errata. I don't usually agree with cheeses so common around these boards, but, honestly, what good is this feat for if not for qualifying for certain PrCs? It's just like the already suboptimal Extra Spell feat, but taken at the worst moment possible - 1st level. Oh, yes, of course, there's also the incredible +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks, which will only be useful 23 levels later, when you begin creating Epic Spells.
rilem 03-23-05, 01:44 PM	Some on this board did not like the fact that he couldn't come up with a better reason than that it would be broken if it worked in such a way, so have chosen to ignore it. As Sang-Drax noted, this misses the point. Rich Baker's comments were ignored in the errata. And it's the errata that matters, because that's where DMs turn for rulings. Do you really expect DMs to be up on every post that Rich Baker makes, anywhere? Before the errata came out, most of the C/O regulars were happy to say that the feat didn't qualify for PrCs, because everybody expected that Baker's veto of the idea would be included. Since it wasn't, Baker's post loses much of its gravitas. It's not a ruling anymore, just the opinion of some guy who happens to be a WotC designer. Maybe Baker was overruled when the errata came out. Maybe they forgot about his post. Maybe he changed his mind. Who knows? The point is, WotC directs DMs to its rulebooks, the FAQ and the errata for rule information. And using those resources, using the Apprentice feat to qualify for PrCs seems legal. If WotC wants to rule otherwise, they can do 5 minutes of work and update the errata.
Hranitel 03-23-05, 01:45 PM	There are many, many, many feats that more or less suck. The Percosious Apprentice feat helps out the low-level (1-2) wizard by giving him a little more variety in whay he can do. The feat skill focus: Spellcraft only gives a +3 to spellcraft checks. This feat gives +2 in addition to an extra second level spell slot. I can see this feat being moderately usefull to a multiclass character (although still sub-optimal).
Hranitel 03-23-05, 01:56 PM	In response to Rilem: I think that per the RAW (what this board usually goes by) you are correct. Do I think that 99% of DMs will let this work? No. So this is great for many CO board optimized builds, but of less help to many individuals who come to this board for help with real builds. Just my personal opinion.
dfmoyer 03-24-05, 04:57 PM	I was looking at some of the builds and noticed that a lot of them were druid 3 / Wizard 3. I think it was pointed out somewhere earlier that said combo does not meet the BAB requirement for the pClass. You need a BAB 4 to quilify so one of the two classes has to go to 4. I have not seen precosious (?sp) apprentice but, if it does not add to the BAB of the class but just adds to the spellcasting capabilities, it doesn't seem to help meet that requirement either. For pure casting capabilities, assuming the final 3 levels are mystic theurge, taking druid to 4 means you end up casting 9th level druid and 8th level arcane. Going the other way reverses it. With the added spellcasting of PAppr it sounds like you can hit 9th arcane but otherwise 9th level in both is impossible to get before epic. Also, can some one point me to the wild modifier for armor? I've just overlooked it, I'm sure, but I have not been able to find it. Thanks
Hranitel 03-25-05, 11:32 AM	DFMoyer: I think most of the builds with Wizard 3 / Druid 3 use MT 2 (which does not have the +4 BAB requirement) before Arcane Hierophant. I personally don't like the wild armor as it costs too much when this build can simply cast Greater Mage Armor (plus other AC enhancement spells like Stoneskin, Haste, Shield) and apply the bonus to your Familiar Companion as long as you stay next to each other.
dfmoyer 03-25-05, 04:29 PM	DFMoyer: I think most of the builds with Wizard 3 / Druid 3 use MT 2 (which does not have the +4 BAB requirement) before Arcane Hierophant. Outstanding... I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.