Arcane Sneak Attacker Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Sneak Attacker Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
parad0cz
08-29-06, 08:57 AM I was reading the Improved Familiar thread, and i was thinking about a arcane rouge with a battle familiar to flank with to insure mass SA. My mission? Hurl vast wodges of d6s will nilly.

A couple things:

One, is there any PrC that is good for the whole battle familiar thing? I have bad feelings about my poor little buddy getting thumped.

Two: im a little unclear on how ranged sneak attack works.

Three: I cant decide which is better- Ranged or TWF

I would imagine in either of these builds Practiced Caster would be useful, though more for the ranged. Extra d6s are always nice. Able Learner is desirable for a rogue/mage, but we might need the feat for something else.

Arcane Trickster seems like the best route, although i've heard tell of a Daggerspell something or other. The latter would be good for TWF, more sneak attack dice, but more chace of getting squished because im not moving after a Full Attack. The spells in that build would be more used for Defensive Buffs. Which is not as good in the sense it takes up turns, but i might just put out enough dice of damage to make up for it.

The ranged way i think would put out less dice, but i'd be a whole lot safer. I dont know if that would really fit with the idea of my familar doing the flanking. Partially because i dont know the ranged sneak rules all that well, but also the fact that it seems more thematic somehow for both of us being in the thick of it.

Then again, cowardace is a benifit of noble professions of both rogue and mage, so there is that.

I doubt they'd work well together, TWF and Ranged, but i'd be pleased if they did.

For the Arcane Trickester, I think it would be great to Impromptu SA the first round while Fluffy gets into position, then unleash my rays(or obs?) to SA once the flank is set up. I think the spells in the ranged build would all be orb or ray spells. Im thinking Scorching Ray For multiple SA goodness. Hell, i can meming ScRay for all the spell slots. BUt mostly beacause i need more weaponlike spells than the SRD has:-P Maybe a lot of wands would be good for this character.

As for the familiar, i want at the very least a flanker who can take a hit and moreso not get hit. A grappler maybe, to occupy the target while i SA and not get Full Attacked? Maybe a guy with a 'poison'/debuff attack of some type?

Feats im thinking would invovle the 'archery feats'. Maybe Craft Wand?

So i hope this give a vague idea of what i am looking to do. What would be a good way to go about it? What would be the best familiar? what spells would be best(from what book)? Thanks.
Carnon
08-29-06, 09:37 AM What level are you starting?

Possibly more combat and less spellcasting than what you're looking for, the Hexblade is good for gaining a tough familiar. You get full BAB and the HPs both you and your familiar get are gonna be a lot nicer than with any Wizard/Rogue/Trickster builds.

Another possibility would be an Assassin with Obtain Familiar (CArc feat that gives spellcasters access to familiars), since Assassin gives you the required arcane casting. Lead in with whatever SA/melee build you like - Rogue 3/Ranger 2 could be good. Of course you won't be getting a familiar until the mid-levels with a build like this.

Of course Leadership is probably better than Obtain Familiar.

Arcane Hierophant is another fairly popular way to get powerful familiars by combining familiar and animal companion into one, but if you want sneak attack with that your spellcasting is going to suck big time... Probably not worth it unless I've missed something.

The Spellthief class is also worth remembering, a base class that gives you both spellcasting and sneak attack.

Trouble with most PrCs is of course the fact they don't advance the abilities (AC bonus etc) your familiar gets - luckily HD and HP continue going up as your level goes up.
arjomanes
08-29-06, 09:46 AM Well, you can't use ranged attacks with flanking, so if your goal is to use a familiar as a flanking partner, you'll have to go with melee.

On the other hand, if you focused on hiding and making ranged attacks/casting ray spells while concealed, then you could take ranged feats (crossbow sniper in PH2 comes to mind). But then your familiar will fulfill a more traditional role of scouting, etc.

If you are more interested in casting levels, you could consider arcane trickster(DMG) or daggerspell mage(CAdv). If your party already has a primary caster, then hexblade would work well. A thing to keep in mind: your familiar will only progress in levels that grant a familiar. Your rogue levels and most PrCs won't help your familiar at all.

Other flanking options, instead of a familiar: Leadership feat, with cohort, followers; summoning monsters; ranger's/druid's animal companion; training a guard dog to flank; partnering with your teammates for flanking (ranger has an optional class ability in PH2 that would work well).
arjomanes
08-29-06, 09:56 AM How ranged sneak attack works:

Your opponent is denied their dexterity bonus (in general, or against you specifically).

Situations where this applies:

You are concealed (hiding, blur, invisible, etc.)
Your opponent is flat-footed (first round of combat)
Your opponent is balancing/climbing (climb, grease, balance)

You cannot flank when using ranged attacks, so that option is out.

You can attack from hiding and then re-hide afterwards as a move action, but with a -20 penalty to your hide check.

If you are taking levels in arcane spellcasting, get blur, invisibility, blink, grease, darkness, etc. These utility spells will allow you to sneak attack more frequently.
parad0cz
08-29-06, 10:10 AM Hmm...

Ok, so flanking familiar means being up front. I can dig it.

I think i can deal with the lack of scaling in the familiar. At third level with wizard i get the touch conduit. Although the lack of scaling Nat armor hurts, Improved Familiar does help alot in everything else.

Assassian with familiar... hmm i could get a psedodragon and be Vlad Taltos. Alignment doesnt work though, and it would be too far out level wise.

Hexblade is an idea, but no SA. I want lotsa dice! Would be good for a differnt concept though.

I just dont like spellthief for some reason.

So then lets go forward with the magical TWF sneak attacker with the Amazing Flanking Familiar. One question, does he get seprerate Init, or does he go on my turn?

Is there anyway to, i dunno, channel my spells into my attacks? Like the arcane strike feat? although that is d4s. I would love to sneak attack with the extra d6s of a Ray behind it. Or maybe touch spells in this case? Does the Daggerspell thing have that, or should i get that arcane strike feat?

Also, if i was a Rg3/Wiz3/AT2/ with Practiced spellcaster, blured then cast Scortching ray meaning 3 rays all at the same person, thats (4d6+3d6)x3=21d6 to one guy? Im not seeing in the SRD where being concelled makes it so the target loses dex.

Although i like the Flanking helper... just which version would give the most dice? The ranged sneak attacking rays? Or the TWF flanky with spell channeling?
rilem
08-29-06, 11:38 AM Daggerspell Mage does have an arcane channelling ability.

Wizard3 does not qualify for Arcane Trickster -- you need 3rd level spells. And an AT mixing it up in melee is asking to be killed, basically. Stick to rays.

Rog3/Wiz1/Fighter1/DaggerspellMage10/AT5 gets:
+8d6 (I think), 8th level spells (CL19th with Practiced Caster), BAB +12 (you'll need wraithstrike).

This is geared toward Sneak Attacks and survivability, rather than spellcasting. You can get ninth level spells (and faster progression) by Going Rog1/Wiz3 instead. Also consider a level of spellsword instead of AT5, so Rog1/Wiz3/Fighter1/DSM10/Spellsword1/AT4.

Why bother with a familiar, btw, when you can just summon creatures to flank with you.
Burdell
08-29-06, 12:06 PM There are also a number of nice spells for this kind of character in the Spellcasters Companion.

To name two;
Distract Assailant; lvl 1, foe makes Will save or is flat footed one round. Note this spell is Swift Cast, so you can do it *plus* a ranged touch SA spell in the same round.
Persistent Blade; lvl 1, floating dagger automatically moves to flanking position for ally or you. It can't be destroyed, and hits as a force attack.

There are a number of Swift cast spells that are useful in there.
Phoenix00
08-29-06, 12:47 PM Add Magelord to the possible magic sneak attackers prcs. It grants you 3d6 more sneak attack and full casting progression. Problem is it has a d4 hit dice and 1/2 BAB so you won't be meleeing any time soon.
parad0cz
08-29-06, 02:57 PM Alright, you convinced me. Leave TWF sneakattacking to the Fighterrouges. MAybe i could do the pet thing with DS Shape... but that doesnt get the good sneak attacking. So lets wrench this thread a little.

How many d6s can i roll for a ranged sneakattacker rogue mage?

I looked at the magelord... pretty nice! Would be great for a rouge who needs to spontaniously cast some utility spells on the go. Or maybe the other way around... have the utility stuff and convert to blast?

So how would we do that? Rg3/Wiz5/AT?/ML? What would be the best? Heck, in this build even cantrips become hefty! Sneaky Ray of Frost?!

I think empowered spell would be funnier and more to the feel of this build than even maximise spell. Empowered scortching ray would be a 4th level spell that shot 4 6d6 rays... for 24d6 fire, 12d6 sneak attack. 36 dice would make a fabulous rumbling sound. Not bad at 9th level. Then there is the dual wand wielding... can you make MMed wands?

I still dont see in the rules where i get SA when I am blurred though....
Phoenix00
08-29-06, 03:46 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=95288
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=598344
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=73882

If you are going the Arcane Trickster Magelord Route, only take 3 levels of Arcane Trickster (possibly 4 for another 1d6 sneak attack), the benefits of Magelord outweight Arcane Trickster and you should get into Magelord as soon as possible.

The Usual Arcane Trickster build is Rogue 1/Wizad 5/Rogue 2/Arcane Trickster.... But there are slightly better builds co op wise of Arcane Trickster (Invisible Knife comes to mind) I will allow you to do the searching, for there are plenty of pages besides the ones I posted about Arcane Trickster.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
parad0cz 08-29-06, 08:57 AM	I was reading the Improved Familiar thread, and i was thinking about a arcane rouge with a battle familiar to flank with to insure mass SA. My mission? Hurl vast wodges of d6s will nilly. A couple things: One, is there any PrC that is good for the whole battle familiar thing? I have bad feelings about my poor little buddy getting thumped. Two: im a little unclear on how ranged sneak attack works. Three: I cant decide which is better- Ranged or TWF I would imagine in either of these builds Practiced Caster would be useful, though more for the ranged. Extra d6s are always nice. Able Learner is desirable for a rogue/mage, but we might need the feat for something else. Arcane Trickster seems like the best route, although i've heard tell of a Daggerspell something or other. The latter would be good for TWF, more sneak attack dice, but more chace of getting squished because im not moving after a Full Attack. The spells in that build would be more used for Defensive Buffs. Which is not as good in the sense it takes up turns, but i might just put out enough dice of damage to make up for it. The ranged way i think would put out less dice, but i'd be a whole lot safer. I dont know if that would really fit with the idea of my familar doing the flanking. Partially because i dont know the ranged sneak rules all that well, but also the fact that it seems more thematic somehow for both of us being in the thick of it. Then again, cowardace is a benifit of noble professions of both rogue and mage, so there is that. I doubt they'd work well together, TWF and Ranged, but i'd be pleased if they did. For the Arcane Trickester, I think it would be great to Impromptu SA the first round while Fluffy gets into position, then unleash my rays(or obs?) to SA once the flank is set up. I think the spells in the ranged build would all be orb or ray spells. Im thinking Scorching Ray For multiple SA goodness. Hell, i can meming ScRay for all the spell slots. BUt mostly beacause i need more weaponlike spells than the SRD has:-P Maybe a lot of wands would be good for this character. As for the familiar, i want at the very least a flanker who can take a hit and moreso not get hit. A grappler maybe, to occupy the target while i SA and not get Full Attacked? Maybe a guy with a 'poison'/debuff attack of some type? Feats im thinking would invovle the 'archery feats'. Maybe Craft Wand? So i hope this give a vague idea of what i am looking to do. What would be a good way to go about it? What would be the best familiar? what spells would be best(from what book)? Thanks.
Carnon 08-29-06, 09:37 AM	What level are you starting? Possibly more combat and less spellcasting than what you're looking for, the Hexblade is good for gaining a tough familiar. You get full BAB and the HPs both you and your familiar get are gonna be a lot nicer than with any Wizard/Rogue/Trickster builds. Another possibility would be an Assassin with Obtain Familiar (CArc feat that gives spellcasters access to familiars), since Assassin gives you the required arcane casting. Lead in with whatever SA/melee build you like - Rogue 3/Ranger 2 could be good. Of course you won't be getting a familiar until the mid-levels with a build like this. Of course Leadership is probably better than Obtain Familiar. Arcane Hierophant is another fairly popular way to get powerful familiars by combining familiar and animal companion into one, but if you want sneak attack with that your spellcasting is going to suck big time... Probably not worth it unless I've missed something. The Spellthief class is also worth remembering, a base class that gives you both spellcasting and sneak attack. Trouble with most PrCs is of course the fact they don't advance the abilities (AC bonus etc) your familiar gets - luckily HD and HP continue going up as your level goes up.
arjomanes 08-29-06, 09:46 AM	Well, you can't use ranged attacks with flanking, so if your goal is to use a familiar as a flanking partner, you'll have to go with melee. On the other hand, if you focused on hiding and making ranged attacks/casting ray spells while concealed, then you could take ranged feats (crossbow sniper in PH2 comes to mind). But then your familiar will fulfill a more traditional role of scouting, etc. If you are more interested in casting levels, you could consider arcane trickster(DMG) or daggerspell mage(CAdv). If your party already has a primary caster, then hexblade would work well. A thing to keep in mind: your familiar will only progress in levels that grant a familiar. Your rogue levels and most PrCs won't help your familiar at all. Other flanking options, instead of a familiar: Leadership feat, with cohort, followers; summoning monsters; ranger's/druid's animal companion; training a guard dog to flank; partnering with your teammates for flanking (ranger has an optional class ability in PH2 that would work well).
arjomanes 08-29-06, 09:56 AM	How ranged sneak attack works: Your opponent is denied their dexterity bonus (in general, or against you specifically). Situations where this applies: You are concealed (hiding, blur, invisible, etc.) Your opponent is flat-footed (first round of combat) Your opponent is balancing/climbing (climb, grease, balance) You cannot flank when using ranged attacks, so that option is out. You can attack from hiding and then re-hide afterwards as a move action, but with a -20 penalty to your hide check. If you are taking levels in arcane spellcasting, get blur, invisibility, blink, grease, darkness, etc. These utility spells will allow you to sneak attack more frequently.
parad0cz 08-29-06, 10:10 AM	Hmm... Ok, so flanking familiar means being up front. I can dig it. I think i can deal with the lack of scaling in the familiar. At third level with wizard i get the touch conduit. Although the lack of scaling Nat armor hurts, Improved Familiar does help alot in everything else. Assassian with familiar... hmm i could get a psedodragon and be Vlad Taltos. Alignment doesnt work though, and it would be too far out level wise. Hexblade is an idea, but no SA. I want lotsa dice! Would be good for a differnt concept though. I just dont like spellthief for some reason. So then lets go forward with the magical TWF sneak attacker with the Amazing Flanking Familiar. One question, does he get seprerate Init, or does he go on my turn? Is there anyway to, i dunno, channel my spells into my attacks? Like the arcane strike feat? although that is d4s. I would love to sneak attack with the extra d6s of a Ray behind it. Or maybe touch spells in this case? Does the Daggerspell thing have that, or should i get that arcane strike feat? Also, if i was a Rg3/Wiz3/AT2/ with Practiced spellcaster, blured then cast Scortching ray meaning 3 rays all at the same person, thats (4d6+3d6)x3=21d6 to one guy? Im not seeing in the SRD where being concelled makes it so the target loses dex. Although i like the Flanking helper... just which version would give the most dice? The ranged sneak attacking rays? Or the TWF flanky with spell channeling?
rilem 08-29-06, 11:38 AM	Daggerspell Mage does have an arcane channelling ability. Wizard3 does not qualify for Arcane Trickster -- you need 3rd level spells. And an AT mixing it up in melee is asking to be killed, basically. Stick to rays. Rog3/Wiz1/Fighter1/DaggerspellMage10/AT5 gets: +8d6 (I think), 8th level spells (CL19th with Practiced Caster), BAB +12 (you'll need wraithstrike). This is geared toward Sneak Attacks and survivability, rather than spellcasting. You can get ninth level spells (and faster progression) by Going Rog1/Wiz3 instead. Also consider a level of spellsword instead of AT5, so Rog1/Wiz3/Fighter1/DSM10/Spellsword1/AT4. Why bother with a familiar, btw, when you can just summon creatures to flank with you.
Burdell 08-29-06, 12:06 PM	There are also a number of nice spells for this kind of character in the Spellcasters Companion. To name two; Distract Assailant; lvl 1, foe makes Will save or is flat footed one round. Note this spell is Swift Cast, so you can do it plus a ranged touch SA spell in the same round. Persistent Blade; lvl 1, floating dagger automatically moves to flanking position for ally or you. It can't be destroyed, and hits as a force attack. There are a number of Swift cast spells that are useful in there.
Phoenix00 08-29-06, 12:47 PM	Add Magelord to the possible magic sneak attackers prcs. It grants you 3d6 more sneak attack and full casting progression. Problem is it has a d4 hit dice and 1/2 BAB so you won't be meleeing any time soon.
parad0cz 08-29-06, 02:57 PM	Alright, you convinced me. Leave TWF sneakattacking to the Fighterrouges. MAybe i could do the pet thing with DS Shape... but that doesnt get the good sneak attacking. So lets wrench this thread a little. How many d6s can i roll for a ranged sneakattacker rogue mage? I looked at the magelord... pretty nice! Would be great for a rouge who needs to spontaniously cast some utility spells on the go. Or maybe the other way around... have the utility stuff and convert to blast? So how would we do that? Rg3/Wiz5/AT?/ML? What would be the best? Heck, in this build even cantrips become hefty! Sneaky Ray of Frost?! I think empowered spell would be funnier and more to the feel of this build than even maximise spell. Empowered scortching ray would be a 4th level spell that shot 4 6d6 rays... for 24d6 fire, 12d6 sneak attack. 36 dice would make a fabulous rumbling sound. Not bad at 9th level. Then there is the dual wand wielding... can you make MMed wands? I still dont see in the rules where i get SA when I am blurred though....
Phoenix00 08-29-06, 03:46 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=95288 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=598344 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=73882 If you are going the Arcane Trickster Magelord Route, only take 3 levels of Arcane Trickster (possibly 4 for another 1d6 sneak attack), the benefits of Magelord outweight Arcane Trickster and you should get into Magelord as soon as possible. The Usual Arcane Trickster build is Rogue 1/Wizad 5/Rogue 2/Arcane Trickster.... But there are slightly better builds co op wise of Arcane Trickster (Invisible Knife comes to mind) I will allow you to do the searching, for there are plenty of pages besides the ones I posted about Arcane Trickster.