Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 11-06-05, 12:57 PM	I'm thinking of making a fighter-mage + Eldritch Knight that uses the Arcane Strike feat. Could anyone suggest a good mage class. Here are the options that I have; SORCERER +more spell slots -slower spell progression (to qualify for Eldritch Knight) WIZARD +scribe croll and one more feat at lvl5 +can go Eldritch Knight after lvl 5 (faster spell progression) -fewer spell slots WARMAGE +more spell slots +armored mage at 1st level (can thus take Battlecaster feat from UA once or twice to get medium & heavy armor) -limited spell selection -slower spell progression (to qualify for EK) EDIT: Oh yes, what about two-weapon fighting? I'd assume it would work nicely with the Arcane Strike feat but then I'd probably have to still every spell? -John
SoulGamit 11-06-05, 01:28 PM	Monk 2 / Sorcerer 3 / Enlightened Fist 10 / Eldritch Knight 5 You can use TWF and still cast spells normally, you can cast touch (and later ranged touch) spells and attack (with arcane strike) in the same round. You can use polymorph, and the ever popular fell weaken + ray of enfeeblement combination. If you can, be an aasimar so you can polymorph into outsiders. You might need gloves of dextarity to qualify for TWF while polymorphed though, since most monsters have low dex. You could always use vigilanty and get 43 3rd levels spells :P
Rara Avis 11-06-05, 01:32 PM	Bard8/Fighter2/SublimeChord2/Eldritch Knight8 or my personal fave Bard8/Soldier of Light2*/SublimeChord2/Eldritch Knight8 Two less Feats but better synergy with your high Charisma: *Divine Grace *Divine Might Feat *SnowFlake Wardance Feat Both I feel are better than the ones you've shown. More versitility 8th lvl Bardic caster and 10th lvl Sublime caster (thats 9th lvl spells) More skills Arcane Strike with the now applicable Words of Creation Bard8 "inpire courage +2" etc, etc... **If SoL* is not allowed, go BardX/Paladin4 with the Devoted Performer Feat for similar effect. [Edit] If you want to go TWF, Snow suggested once, and I agree, that investing in EWP (Bracer Claws) would allow you to attack with them and cast spells, while still wearing them.
Kuroi Kenshi 11-06-05, 02:18 PM	TWFing is a good method, but you blow through your spellslots really fast since you have to use a spellslot on each weapon. The bard/SC build is very good. The only change I'd reccommend is if you aren't allowed words of creation or don't want to be exalted - Bard7/Fighter1/SoL2/SC2/SS1/EK7 That fighter bonus feat can allow you to fit in improved TWF right when you qualify for it (char level 8), then you can pick up divine might or arcane strike at char level 9 instead of having to put off either one until level 12 and 15. Another alternative is to take EK level 1 at character level 8, then take the rest of the EK levels after getting sublime chord. This depends on if your DM will allow you to apply those EK levels to advancing the SC progression instead of being locked into the bard progression. Bard7/EK1/SoL2/SC2/SS1/EK2-8 Finally, if you are able, you should *always* replace one EK level with one spellsword level, as you come ahead on hitdie and saves for it and lose nothing. Another method that tries to get the most out of your spent slots on arcane strike is to use a spiked chain + combat reflexes build. Get your reach and number of AoOs per round maxed out, and you get the most milage possible out of each use of arcane strike. Add on feats like improved trip, deft opportunist, karmic strike, elusive target, and power attack for even more AoO synergy. Here's my preferred build for that purpose: Human Fighter2/Diviner1/Human Paragon3/SS3/EK10/Diviner2 If you're allowed to, use the UA wizard variant that allows a fighter bonus feat instead of scribe scroll. Also use the diviner variant that drops your familiar for perks to your school of specialization (unless you really like a low level familiar). By level 10, you have 7 bonus feats - equal to that of a human fighter10. Plus by being a diviner and dropping evocation (or a different school if you want contingency later on...maybe enchantment), the spellslot gap between you and a sorceror is minimized.
Dain 11-06-05, 02:42 PM	The two best builds I can think of: Feat/combat intensive, best at lower levels (but viable all the way), can channel spells and cast in Mithril Twillight Full Plate (Or Mithril Breastplate): Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 Spell-intensive, BAB 16, CL 18, casts in Full Plate from level 5, very powerful at higher levels: Dwarven Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/Spellsword 1/Eldrith Knight 10 I would definitely avoid TWF because it burns way too many spell slots. You need to burn spells for each weapon, as mentioned above. Plus, TWF is very feat intensive, and Fighter/Mages just don't have that many feats to spare: You're much better off using your feats on Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike and the likes. Power Attack and Cleave often some in handy too.
ninjarabbit 11-06-05, 03:56 PM	monk1/wizard4/enlightenedfist4/dragonslayer1/spellsword1/eldritchknight9 16 BAB, 17 CL, I think unarmed strikes only need one arcane strike charge as opposed to two with other weapons so you can have up to 9 (4 from BAB, 3 from TWF, 1 from Flurry, 1 from haste) attacks on one arcane strike charge.
the great and powerful Oz 11-06-05, 04:04 PM	Human ftr1/swshb3/wiz4/spllswrd4/eldrkn8 4D10+4D4+4D8+8D6+80 (±183 hp) initiative: +7 (dex) AC: 35 (10+7 dexterity + 7 armour + 5 deflection + 3 shield + 3 natural) Base attack: +18/+13/+8/+3 (that with a spell progression of 14; CL18!) Scimitar: +30/+25/+20/+15 melee 1D6slash+1D6electric+2str+7int+spell? 12-20/*2 2D6slash+1D10elec+4+14+Spell? (note: arcane strike) spell: +25 ranged/+20 melee touch special abilities/qualities: spells, grace +1, ignore arcane spell failure 15%, canny strike, channel spell 3/day spellcasting: (4/6/6/6/9/4/4/3) CL18 Spells prepared (varies, but this is the average package without knowing up-front what to face) L0: detect magic, light, detect poison, prestidigidation L1: lesser orb of acid, lesser orb of fire, magic missile (3*), true strike, cure light wounds L2: scorching ray (2), scare, shatter, false life, gust of wind, cure moderate wounds L3: vampiric touch, lightning bolt, fireball, dispel magic, displacement, suggestion, cure serious wounds L4: orb of force, orb of cold, blast of flame, unluck, fire shield, fear, enervation, dimension door, stoneskin, cure critical wounds L5: greater fireburst, telekinesis, cone of cold, feeblemind, mass cure light wounds L6: disintegrate, circle of death, chain lightning, antimagic field, heal L7: greater teleport, Mordenkainen’s sword, finger of death, regenerate abilities: 15 str, 24 dex (18 base), 18 con, 24 int (18 base), 16 wis, 10 cha (the dumpstat) feats (7 base+1human+1fighter+1eldr.knight+1spell sword=11): weapon finesse (B), scribe scroll (B), arcane strike, arcane disciple (Pelor, healing), practised spellcaster, combat reflexes, hold the line, improved critical (scimitar), dodge, mobility, spring attack, [power attack, sunder]. (This character was “designed” to face other powerful characters wearing armour and arms. If you frequently face other creatures like orcs, or even ogres, whom you could kill in a single blow (arcane strike) you could take power attack - cleave in stead. If you frequently take on magic-resistant or other special creatures you might consider other combinations, such as mobile spellcasting and something else - I’ll be sticking with this one) skills: concentration +36, knowledge (arcane) +24, knowledge (religion) +14, spellcraft +30, bluff +8, intimidate +6, sense motive +19, climb +3, jump +2, swim (11+2-**), balance +12, diplomacy +8 gear: headband of intellect +6 amulet of natural armour +3 cloak of resistance +5 gloves of dexterity +6 ring of deflection +5 ring of wizardry type 4 rod of metamagic (quicken, normal) elven leafweave +5 heavy fortification leather armour (max dex of +7, 0 check penalty, +7 armour bonus, immunity to sneak attack and critical hits, arcane spell failure of 5%) +2 reflecting ghost touch light steel shield (reflect spell once per day, grants full bonus against incorporeal all the time, can be used to bash if necessary, +3 shield bonus, 5% spell failure) +5 keen shocking burst dispelling warning scimitar wizard’s spellbook spell components pouch Possible to fiddle around a bit, but i don't think it'll get much more powerful. You see, it really only needs good dex (attack&ac) and int(spells&meleedamage); higher strength still improves damage. try channalling disintegrate or shatter while cleaving; scares the other guy ********.
Dain 11-07-05, 06:16 PM	Oz - I really don't think that int to damage is worth 2 caster levels and a feat. And is there any particular reason that you don't grab the 5th Spellsword level for an extra 5 % ASF-reduction? I would stick to Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Spellsword 5/EK 9 any day.
colm_l 11-08-05, 04:36 AM	Diviner 6/Knight Phantom 10/Sacred Exorcist 4 BAB 16 CL 19 Take militia (or "otherworldly" if your GM oks it) & still spell to qualify for Knight Phantom. For optimum fighting ability use the "combat training" wizard from UA- bonus fighter feats instead of metamagic. Necromancy should probably be your opposed school (that or evocation - personal taste really). You'll end up with one less base spell per day than a sorceror taking the same route, more spells known & more feats. Your high Int will also, generally, be much more useful to you than a high cha score.
the great and powerful Oz 11-12-05, 06:53 AM	Let's not forget the swashbuckler also gets a free weapon finesse feat. Int to damage affects every single slash; and there are only so many spells you can cast per day. Call it 'durability'. I didn't do the 5th level because the build doesn't really need the additional reduction. If the spellsword gets another caster level at 5th, it would have probably been better to take it.
Vaelan 11-12-05, 07:40 AM	monk1/wizard4/enlightenedfist4/dragonslayer1/spellsword1/eldritchknight9 16 BAB, 17 CL, I think unarmed strikes only need one arcane strike charge as opposed to two with other weapons so you can have up to 9 (4 from BAB, 3 from TWF, 1 from Flurry, 1 from haste) attacks on one arcane strike charge. The official ruling is that your "off-hand" unarmed strikes are enhanced separately by spells like Greater Magic Fang, Greater Magic Weapon and feats like Arcane Strike, so going Monk doesn't help that particular problem. Since you seem to have a pretty firm grasp of the spellcaster choices, I'll offer some other advice. Choose one of the 0 LA Outsiders (Neraph is one, I'm sure someone else will come along with another) as your race so that you gain proficiency with all martial weapons and access better polymorph forms, both thanks to having the Outsider type. This way, you don't have to lose a caster level in Fighter, although you delay dipping into Spellsword as you have to dip in Dragonslayer first. Spellsword requires armor proficiencies, which neither the Outsider type nor Eldritch Knight grant and Dragonslayer does. This is one possibility... Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 2 / Dragonslayer 1 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 3-10 This is only ECL 17. The last three levels could be anything, but you need one more caster level in there to get access to ninth-level spells. Dragonslayer has some undesirable feats as requirements (Dodge and Iron Will :yuck: ), but the extra caster level may be worth it. This build can also be easily accomodated to a Sorcerer by adding in another level before Eldritch Knight and only taking one level of Eldritch Knight before dipping into Dragonslayer and Spellsword.
Rara Avis 11-12-05, 05:06 PM	The "Battlecaster" feat makes Spellsword obsolete. Why even bother? There is also no reason why these gishes can't cast 9th level spells and have a decent BaB +16-17. With all these new books such as Comp Arcane, Advernturer, etc, it can easily be pulled off. Some don't even require a major sacrifice in feats and still maintain synergy. For example: Sor 6/Pal 2-4 has excellent synergy and works really well is Arcane strike since you cast spell spontaniously unlike the typical Wizard gish that uses prepared ones. Coupled with Divine Grace and Divine Might (switch over to a Greatsword for extra holy goodness), makes this the ideal gish. My problem with this gish is the its low hp and skills (I'm a skill monkey at heart). Wiz/Ftr has the same probem too. As mention before, Subime Gishes :fight!: are the way to go. More BaB More Skills More Hp More variation of spells including buffs and curative magic. Bardic Music - specifically Inspire Courage +2 UMD synergy Snowflake Wardance feat for Charisma synergy attack bonus Spontanious casting for Arcane strike use The list goes on and on. And since you have LOW hp with any of these builds, you should not even front-lineing so better to go the archer gish route than a Bard. This is what I've been playing and its better and more practical (for the group and myself) than your standard gish: -Brd7/Master Thrower2/Drd1/SC1/FL9 = BaB +16, avg hp d6, druid spells, Archer extensive -Brd8/SoL2/SC2/EK8 = BaB +17, avg hp d6 Divine Grace + Divine Might synergy -Brd8/Ftr1/PrC1 (perhaps your precious Spellsword :pbbbtt: )/SC1/EK9 = BaB +17, avg d8, Bonus feats, more like the traditional gish, but better. All these builds don't mind the company of the Arcane Strike and cast 9th level Wizard spells coupled with level 6 Bard spells, so its really going to shine.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-12-05, 05:48 PM	The bardic gish is great... at high levels. At low levels the bardic gish has a really bad spell-progression, a low number of spells per day, and does not have access to the really good offensive spells available to sor/wiz (like fist of stone for +6 str (1st level), wraith-strike (2nd level), and fireball (3rd).) Imho, the best gish is the psi-gish build. The reason: psionic lion's charge, Slayer PrC, no ASF, awesome offensive powers, decent buffs, fusion, fission, SCHISM, and last but not least: hustle. The only two spells that I truely miss in a psi-gish at low levels is: wraithstrike, and fist of stone. However, if you get your UMD up high enough wands of these spells are dirt cheap. Example build: Ftr1/Egoist3/Rng1/Slayer10/Egoist4 This gets you 16 BAB and 9th level Powers. The skill points aren't as good as a bardic build, but the high int from psion and the (4 + int) skills from slayer aren't bad. Hit points averages turns out to be slightly better than d6 (avg 75, whereas 20d6 averages 70). If you are worried about HP there are many ways to increase this: shambling mound cheese (high level trick), improved toughness, lots o' con, and vigor (5 temp hp per power point!). EDIT: Note this post was just to point out some weaknesses of a bardic gish, I realize that this has nothing to do with the OP. To answer the question of which mage class best suits an arcane strike build I would have to say sorcerer, just on the basis of the sheer number of spells per day. Warmage would be good only if you use their horrible spell-list just for arcane strike and blaster spells. (you won't have access to any decent buff spells though :tantrum: ).
Kuroi Kenshi 11-12-05, 06:45 PM	The "Battlecaster" feat makes Spellsword obsolete. Why even bother? There is also no reason why these gishes can't cast 9th level spells and have a decent BaB +16-17. Because with battlecaster you have to at least be able to cast spells in light armor with no ASF penalties to begin with? That means the feat only applies to hexblade, bards/SCs, warmages, and battlesorcerors. Also let me quote myself: ...if you are able, you should *always* replace one EK level with one spellsword level, as you come ahead on hitdie and saves for it and lose nothing. Sor 6/Pal 2-4 has excellent synergy and works really well is Arcane strike since you cast spell spontaniously unlike the typical Wizard gish that uses prepared ones. Coupled with Divine Grace and Divine Might (switch over to a Greatsword for extra holy goodness), makes this the ideal gish. There is some nice cha synergy in a sorceror/paladin build, but not as much as with a bard build. Spontaneous casting vs prepared has its pros and cons, but I don't see how one method or the other in itself is better for arcane strikes. Either way, keep in mind that with spontaneous casting your highest spell level will be delayed by a level compared to a wizard. That's more painful when your casting progression is already slowed by being a gish. Also the spellslot gap between sorcs and wizards is noticably narrowed when wizards specialize. My problem with this gish is the its low hp and skills (I'm a skill monkey at heart). Wiz/Ftr has the same probem too. A wizard gish doesn't have as much a skill problem as INT is the primary casting stat. Also with the use of the human paragon, "standard" gishes, especially of the wizard flavor, become fairly viable skill monkies. The class also helps with the average hitdie, especially in the early levels, and adds a much welcomed bonus feat. Edit: Imho, the best gish is the psi-gish build. The reason: psionic lion's charge, Slayer PrC, no ASF, awesome offensive powers, decent buffs, fusion, fission, SCHISM, and last but not least: hustle.I do agree that psionic gishes make the best ones overall. The only thing that arcane gishes really have over them is arcane strike, practiced spellcaster, and misc. perks that are arguably better or worse than the awesome abilities of the Slayer PrC.
Seeker of Undeath 11-12-05, 07:16 PM	I'm thinking of making a fighter-mage + Eldritch Knight that uses the Arcane Strike feat. Could anyone suggest a good mage class. Here are the options that I have; SORCERER +more spell slots -slower spell progression (to qualify for Eldritch Knight) WIZARD +scribe croll and one more feat at lvl5 +can go Eldritch Knight after lvl 5 (faster spell progression) -fewer spell slots WARMAGE +more spell slots +armored mage at 1st level (can thus take Battlecaster feat from UA once or twice to get medium & heavy armor) -limited spell selection -slower spell progression (to qualify for EK) EDIT: Oh yes, what about two-weapon fighting? I'd assume it would work nicely with the Arcane Strike feat but then I'd probably have to still every spell? -JohnGiven the general style of an arcane strike gish, I'd recommend going with Sorcerer and a two-handed weapon. I think you can TWF with arcane strike, but you'll have to dump a spell slot per weapon. Sorcerer6/KnightPhantom10/EldritchKnight4 works fairly smoothly (with Militia). Sorcerer8/Fighter1/Spellsword1/EldritchKnight10 isn't bad either. In any case I recommend Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and Wraithstrike. A trusty greatsword will probably keep you happy too.
Nifft 11-12-05, 07:38 PM	Seems to me it's best to max out your # of attacks per round with a single weapon. So, Monk + Flurry is nice, as is Spiked Chain + Exotic Weapon Master (Exotic Flurry) -- the latter is a bit better, because of the extra point of BAB, and of course Reach. -- N
johniemi 11-13-05, 06:34 AM	Wow, thanks for the feedback... Now I'd just like to know from which books I can find the spells, feats & PrC's you all mentioned: Enlightened Fist PrC Fell Weaken (spell?) Vigilanty feat Sublime Chord PrC Soldier of Light PrC SnowFlake Wardance feat Words of Creation (spell?) Runesmith PrC Diviner PrC Knight Phantom PrC Sacred Exorcist PrC Militia (feat?) Dragonslayer PrC Please comment on those that you know and maybe after a few people have chimed in I would have knowledge of the books needed. Thanks! -John
colm_l 11-13-05, 06:43 AM	Enlightened Fist PrC -Complete Divine Fell Weaken (metamagic feat)- Libris Mortis Sublime Chord PrC -complete arcane SnowFlake Wardance feat - Frostburn Words of Creation (spell?) -Book of exalted deeds Runesmith PrC - player's guide to Faerun Knight Phantom PrC - five nations Sacred Exorcist PrC - Complete Divine Dragonslayer PrC - Draconomicon
Xyron 11-13-05, 07:27 AM	Excuse me for my english,but I am new and italian. I like GISH and I suggests two builds: One is very simple: 2fighter/8mage and 10 eldritch knight...caster level 17(9°lv. of magic) and bab +16/11/6/1 Another is = my pg: 2fighter/4mage/10spellsword/4 eldritch knight.... BAB 18 and caster level is 12 with 12 feats(human)
Khazra Reborn 11-13-05, 08:56 AM	enlightened fist is good because of the ascetic mage feat, flurry & TWF with hands free. Also, unarmed strikes are one weapon so you only need one arcane strike to use, as opposed to 2 for normal TWF. Don't forget illumians. If you wan't to abandon casting completely, you may aswell take Vaulaesh aswell for those times when you want even more extra damage/AC. Also, could you use tenser's transformation but still use spells for arcane strike etc? That would make the enlightened fist much more viable due to the much higher BaB.
johniemi 11-13-05, 12:02 PM	What can I say... Thanks again! I'm really getting some great ideas from you guys. But one very simple question; Do I need to still spells if I use a shield? What about if I'm holding a sword in one hand and f.e.x a metamagic rod on the other hand? Also while we are on the topic ;) what are some good fighting tactics for a gish? I'm thinking of polymorphing into something strong and then using arcane strike or something like that... but maybe you have better ideas? I've only played sorcerers and wizards that fire up spells from the rear ranks (or fly above the battlefield) but I've never played a good gish build with a solid fighting strategy. -John
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-13-05, 12:39 PM	You'll always need one hand free to cast spells with a somatic component, so you can't have a rod in one hand and a sword in the other while casting (unless you still it). Remember that shields have pretty big ASF, so you'd probably be better off just using shield the spell. As far as gish tactics go... there are two schools of thought: 1.) mega damage in a single hit: end combat early (expend lots of resouces) 2.) fighter replacement: minimal buffing, lower damage, low resouce expendature Generally, you'll be stuck with the fighter replacement option, and won't have much advantage over the average melee character. Use arcane strike and other swift action buffs (like wraithstrike). If you're in a dungeon, however, and you expect enemies behind the next door, going "nova" with buffs can be pretty fun. Cast polymorph, shield, fist of stone (for +6 str), and ready a fireball when the grunt barbarian kicks down the door. Go forth and kick butt. Moral of the story: the more time you have for buffs the more powerful you will be.
johniemi 11-13-05, 02:04 PM	Given the general style of an arcane strike gish, I'd recommend going with Sorcerer and a two-handed weapon. I think you can TWF with arcane strike, but you'll have to dump a spell slot per weapon. Sorcerer6/KnightPhantom10/EldritchKnight4 works fairly smoothly (with Militia). Sorcerer8/Fighter1/Spellsword1/EldritchKnight10 isn't bad either. In any case I recommend Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and Wraithstrike. A trusty greatsword will probably keep you happy too. I'm now doing the above build (Sor-KP-EK) but it looks like I don't get any armor proficiencies. So I need to take 1 level of Fighter for starters? :( -John
colm_l 11-13-05, 03:20 PM	I'm now doing the above build (Sor-KP-EK) but it looks like I don't get any armor proficiencies. So I need to take 1 level of Fighter for starters? :( -John Take Dragonslayer 1 for prof. without losing a caster level or point of BAB
newblar32 11-13-05, 04:44 PM	Sorceress4/Fighter2/Knight of the Thorn 8/Havoc Mage 5/Spellsword1 HD: 4d4 + 2d10 + 8d6 + 5d8 + 1d8 BAB: +14 Sorceress Caster Level: 16th This toon has the ability to cast in most armor with no arcane spell failure (ignoring up to 40% arcane spell failure, 20% from KotT, 10% from spellsword, and 10% from the twilight armor property), it can also channel touch spells through his weapon via the weapon touch ability (granted by KotT), and it can battlecast up to 8th level spells. Tack on arcane strike and quicken spell for more fun :)
Vaelan 11-13-05, 11:31 PM	Also, unarmed strikes are one weapon so you only need one arcane strike to use, as opposed to 2 for normal TWF. This does not appear to be the case. Many sources make a distinction between off-hand unarmed strikes being separate such as the Kensai from Complete Warrior.
Nifft 11-13-05, 11:34 PM	This does not appear to be the case. Many sources make a distinction between off-hand unarmed strikes being separate such as the Kensai from Complete Warrior. Yes. Flurry may be what the poster is thinking of -- it's very similar to TWF (in terms of attacks gained and penalty to attack rolls), but Flurry clearly does work with a single weapon. -- N
Dain 11-14-05, 07:16 AM	Let's not forget the swashbuckler also gets a free weapon finesse feat. Int to damage affects every single slash; and there are only so many spells you can cast per day. Call it 'durability'. I didn't do the 5th level because the build doesn't really need the additional reduction. If the spellsword gets another caster level at 5th, it would have probably been better to take it. The Spellsword does get an aditional caster level at 5th level. Aye, int applies to all attacks, but really - 2 caster levels? In the higher levels you're going to fight polymorphed or shapechanged most of the time anyway, so int to damage won't do you any good by that time. Plus you're forgetting that a greatsword does a great deal more damage than a rapier. If we assume a 14 str and a 16 int (stats in your favor): Greatsword: 2d6 + 3 (str) dmg. = 10 average damage Rapier: 1d6 + 5 (str + int) dmg. = 8,5 average damage AND you've got the (powerful) ability to Power Attack with a greatsword. I'd say that it's nowhere near worth it to do the Swashbuckler levels.
Rara Avis 11-17-05, 11:48 AM	<shrugs> :whatsthis As long as the information is out for gish use. In the end, gish have no competitve edge with the other classes/PrC. So play what you like and have fun, regardless whats good or not.
SpartanMD 11-17-05, 04:02 PM	Take Dragonslayer 1 for prof. without losing a caster level or point of BAB What are the requirements for Dragonslayer? Do they get Martial weapon profiency?
NineInchNall 11-17-05, 04:40 PM	This does not appear to be the case. Many sources make a distinction between off-hand unarmed strikes being separate such as the Kensai from Complete Warrior. 1. One use of Arcane Strike applies to all natural weapons. 2. A monk's unarmed strikes count as both manufactured and natural weapons. 1 + 2 = one use of Arcane Strike applies to all a Monk's unarmed strikes.