Arcane Summoners [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Summoners [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FeceMan
12-07-06, 12:32 AM This has been bothering me since I read a thread on it in the "What's a Player to Do?" forum.

Arcane summoners get kind of screwed.

No, really.

Summon nature's ally is, overall, stronger, especially when druids can spontaneously cast it and apply feats that more or less break summoning as a whole.

The psion, on the other hand, can craft his summons as he creates them (talk about intelligent design). He can make them faster or stronger or give them a stinger, allowing them to adapt to the situation.

Meanwhile, the poor arcanist sits there, scratching his ass and hoping that his hezrou can beat up on the bad guys.

As of now, the strongest summoning build I can come up with is...

Wizard* 5/Master Specialist 10/Thamaturgist 4/whatever

*Using the UA variants of spontaneous summoning and rapid summoning.

This allows the wizard to toss out auto-extended summons that are harder to dispel and that get free bonuses to STR/CON.

Unfortunately, a +4 enhancement bonus isn't all that in the great scheme of things. On the plus side, all his summons will have 22 + (2*HD) bonus hitpoints...though, again, not that much at level 20.

In addition, he can have his summons pop up via contingency for free, which is always nice.

He will take the cloudy conjuration feat from CMage, more for flavor (and a dramatic entrance) than zomgtehawesome (not that automatically sickening the enemy is a bad thing). Sure, he can pop out two summon monster IX in a round, but...it just doesn't feel that strong, if you get what I mean.

I'd rather summon one very strong monster than have to spend two spell slots on weaker ones. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe the summoner kicks more ass than I'm understanding...could anyone tell me their opinions on it? Maybe I'm just jealous of druids.

(The one thing I do like is the customized conjuration spells in UA. That's a good thing, so maybe that could help, but that requires more DM approval than the two variants.)

By the way, I checked in the links threads. No dice on summoners.

P.S. No alienist, please. I think the class is okay, but I don't like it a ton because one loses the ability to summon fiendish/celestial creatures.
Surreal
12-07-06, 01:12 AM I seem to recall a feat in one of the newer books that lets you summon creatures with buff spells attached. Might apply to all classes though (or maybe it was druid only... ?)
Yorath_theWolf
12-07-06, 01:29 AM nope, applys to everyone. it's from PHBII. Imbuded Summoning is what yer thinking of.
Arem_K
12-07-06, 01:45 AM The arcanist summons things a bit differently. At the highest levels he will have gate, which is totally awesome and makes any arcanist beat the pants of a druid in summoning. Before that there are spells like planar binding and animate undead. Basically, you just want to avoid all the spells with the word summon in their name.
NineInchNall
12-07-06, 02:11 AM ...

Shadowcraft Mages can ... sort of ... arcane ... summon ... not real, but ... HYPERREAL!

... Fiendbinders rock, by the by. Playing one is like playing someone from actual literature.
icedrake
12-07-06, 02:35 AM What would be a sample build for a fiendbinder?
neceros
12-07-06, 05:10 AM It's true: Psions rule.
Bonzai
12-07-06, 10:22 AM They were pretty bad, but complete mage and some other recent releases have helped make it a bit better.

A Wizard can take the UA summoner variant, which will dovetail wonderfully into the Master Specialist PrC. There is also a reseve feat that lets you summon elementals for free. Sure they are weaker that the max you can cast, but on the other hand they can now be used all the time. You can use them to set off traps and such, and the enemy now has a small speed bump to go over to get to you.

As a Sorcerer, you were given a boost, but only for demons. With the Infernal Heritige and Demon Master feats you get a +3 to caster level, when it comes to summoning fiendish creatures. You can get both at lvl 1 (if your human), and have your 1st level summons last 4 rounds instead of 1. You can also use the reserve feats.
ShubNiggurath
12-07-06, 11:15 AM The UA conjurer variant is not bad at all, and with the Master specialist PrC I would say that it is well on par with the druid as a summoner. Maybe even stronger, as a summoner.

Obviously, the druid has better HP,BAB,an animal companion, wildshape... but that's another story.
Prominence
12-07-06, 11:35 AM Believe I had a post on this a while back. A wizard takes over summoning around level 13. It involved Master Specialist, Augmented Summoning, Imbued Summoning, Metamagic School Focus (conjuration) for +0 imbued summoning, and the spell that reduces casting time in Dragon Magic I believe, Arcane Spellsurge?

Anyway, those combine to give you 2d4+2 summons with any 1-3rd level buff you want.

At higher levels, or with incantrix and whatnot, you can combine reach/chain spell to use Polymorph on all your Summons. It should be noted only a wizard can do this very efficiently.
-If you went Alienist, you can now polymorph all your summons into Outsiders of your choice. Everyone wants an instant Astra Deva team.

If a Master specialist is heading toward abjuration, they can do crazier things. For isntance, they can use Major School Esoterica and Reach/chain to shoot shapechange on all their summons. Everyone also likes a team of Balors / Solars.
FeceMan
12-07-06, 11:56 PM Hmmm...

Imbued summoning + a monster with mage armor or invisibility...nice. Though I'm sure there's more brokenation to be found, I'm not looking through the spells right now.
Friendlyfish
12-08-06, 01:36 AM I think that anybody, including druids and clerics, can use imbued summoning. I don't think that there's much that an arcanist can do with the Summoning line that druids and clerics don't do just as well and with the added bonus of their superior class features. Let's face it, arcane summoners: we play one for flavor, not for optimization.

If you have time to polymorph your summons, maybe you should be polymorphing your party tanks instead; it's probably a better expenditure of resources.

I agree though, it seems to fly in the face of commonly understood and accepted fantasy archetypes for the DRUID to be the master summoner. Or even the cleric.
CannibalSmith
12-08-06, 02:27 AM nope, applys to everyone. it's from PHBII. Imbuded Summoning is what yer thinking of. The description of the feat says nothing about when you summon several creatures with a single spell. Also, what about swarms? Does the effect apply to all of the creatures summoned? If not, can you spend additional buffs on the same summon to enchant all of your creatures? Or maybe you may not summon multiple creatures when using the feat?
FeceMan
12-08-06, 07:05 PM The description of the feat says nothing about when you summon several creatures with a single spell. Also, what about swarms? Does the effect apply to all of the creatures summoned? If not, can you spend additional buffs on the same summon to enchant all of your creatures? Or maybe you may not summon multiple creatures when using the feat?
Too many questions that are for FAQ.
CannibalSmith
12-09-06, 05:50 AM What/which FAQ? Where should I re-post these questions?
The Character Optimization Board FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=64298),
the 3.5 summon monster list (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=180887),
The Comprehensive Summoning Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=216497),
or
Druid Spell Combos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290658)?
FriendlyFrog
12-09-06, 08:03 AM It's true: Psions rule.
Well, they did rule, but Complete psionic nerfed it big time. You can now have only one Astral construct at a time.
Prominence
12-09-06, 09:50 AM I think that anybody, including druids and clerics, can use imbued summoning. I don't think that there's much that an arcanist can do with the Summoning line that druids and clerics don't do just as well and with the added bonus of their superior class features. Let's face it, arcane summoners: we play one for flavor, not for optimization.
True, but I tend to see more wizard builds trying to overcome the adjustment.

If you have time to polymorph your summons, maybe you should be polymorphing your party tanks instead; it's probably a better expenditure of resources.
...you're using chain/reach to accomplish this. Why the heck wouldn't you polymorph everyone? You can probably hit them all. Besides, a party has one, maybe two tanks usually. Polymorphing them is no problem.
Also note if you're doing something such as Alienist then polymorphing the summons is stronger - you can choose outsider forms.
Yorath_theWolf
12-09-06, 12:13 PM Also note if you're doing something such as Alienist then polymorphing the summons is stronger - you can choose outsider forms.

yeah but playing an Alienist also means that ALL you can ever summon is Psuedonatural critters. this means that you can't switch up and start summoning elementals and the like for the best summons in the game(depending on the elemental of course.)
Prominence
12-09-06, 12:47 PM SM9 - Couatl (outsider), devil (outsider), elder elementals (elementals)
SM8 - Lillends (outsider), Vrock (outsider), Great elementals (elementals)
SM7 - Avoral, Babau, huge elementals

Seems as we go down the list, we always have good/evil outsider options and elemental options. Polymorph, of course, works for elementals. So we do not need those wonderful feats to get the better elemental types - we simply need polymorph, chain spell, and reach spell (or arcane reach Archmage). Furthermore, ANY wizard can do this with Metamagic Spell Trigger without increasing the spell level.

So I guess Alienist isn't needed to pull this off, but Master Specialist is needed for swift summons.
mercury529
12-09-06, 01:53 PM As NIN said, a Shadowcraft Mage can potentially make an excellent summoner.

If I am not mistaken, with use of earth spell and a heightened silent image, a ScM could cast a 9th level Gate spell to summon without an XP cost. The being would be at least 90% real. More likely it would be more than a 100% real allowing bonus damage/hp etc. (as long as your DM allowed the bonuses beyond 100% reality).

On top of that, the spell would be automatically extended with the 4th level of the ScM. It would also be Silent automatically with the 2nd level of the ScM (allowing you to cast from invisibility without any indication). Odds are it would be cast using Arcane Thesis on Silent Image allowing for another free extend of the spell (and any other 1 slot metamagic adjustment that might apply). And if you want to add the icing on the cake, Residual Metamagic would allow you to cast it again from a 1st (or 0th should you have taken the gnome substitution level) slot on the next turn.

This technique would apply to any other Conjuration (summoning) you wished to use. I think a ScM could make an excellent summoner. And if he did not feel like summoning that day, he would have a lot of other options as well.

Edit: My mistake. I looked at Gate at it actually classifies as a (Calling) conjuration when you are summoning creatures. So Gate will not work with a Heightened Silent Image.
Swifty
12-12-06, 03:06 PM Demonologist PRC from BoVD make amazing summoners.

They eventually get the ability to summon monsters from 4 lists higher when summoning demons. With a specialist conjurer thats alot of summon monster IX's per day.
iconoplast
12-12-06, 04:53 PM Sand Shaper (From Sandstorm) gives access to Summon Desert Ally, which is a Nature's Ally-esque summoning list with a construct template auto-applied.

You get access to all the spells when you take your first Sand Shaper level which, although it bumps your Caster level, does not advance your spellcasting. Not sure it's worth it.

Arcane Spellsurge is an *awesome* idea, though. I think Arcane Spellsurging for Standard Action (instead of Full Round) imbued (Girallon's Blessing) Augmented Summons + Swift Action Haste-ing them sounds pretty fun. Almost as fun as Standard Action (Instead of Full Round) imbued & augmented summons + Swift Action Rapid (from the metamagic feat) summons.

It does require the wizard to *not* take Rapid Conjuring, though.
FeceMan
12-12-06, 05:11 PM What/which FAQ?
The official FAQ.

Also, demonologist needs to offer half caster progression OR not require the ability to cast spells. Also, the required feats suck and cause MAD.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FeceMan 12-07-06, 12:32 AM	This has been bothering me since I read a thread on it in the "What's a Player to Do?" forum. Arcane summoners get kind of screwed. No, really. Summon nature's ally is, overall, stronger, especially when druids can spontaneously cast it and apply feats that more or less break summoning as a whole. The psion, on the other hand, can craft his summons as he creates them (talk about intelligent design). He can make them faster or stronger or give them a stinger, allowing them to adapt to the situation. Meanwhile, the poor arcanist sits there, scratching his ass and hoping that his hezrou can beat up on the bad guys. As of now, the strongest summoning build I can come up with is... Wizard* 5/Master Specialist 10/Thamaturgist 4/whatever Using the UA variants of spontaneous summoning and rapid summoning. This allows the wizard to toss out auto-extended summons that are harder to dispel and that get free bonuses to STR/CON. Unfortunately, a +4 enhancement bonus isn't all that in the great scheme of things. On the plus side, all his summons will have 22 + (2HD) bonus hitpoints...though, again, not that much at level 20. In addition, he can have his summons pop up via contingency for free, which is always nice. He will take the cloudy conjuration feat from CMage, more for flavor (and a dramatic entrance) than zomgtehawesome (not that automatically sickening the enemy is a bad thing). Sure, he can pop out two summon monster IX in a round, but...it just doesn't feel that strong, if you get what I mean. I'd rather summon one very strong monster than have to spend two spell slots on weaker ones. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe the summoner kicks more ass than I'm understanding...could anyone tell me their opinions on it? Maybe I'm just jealous of druids. (The one thing I do like is the customized conjuration spells in UA. That's a good thing, so maybe that could help, but that requires more DM approval than the two variants.) By the way, I checked in the links threads. No dice on summoners. P.S. No alienist, please. I think the class is okay, but I don't like it a ton because one loses the ability to summon fiendish/celestial creatures.
Surreal 12-07-06, 01:12 AM	I seem to recall a feat in one of the newer books that lets you summon creatures with buff spells attached. Might apply to all classes though (or maybe it was druid only... ?)
Yorath_theWolf 12-07-06, 01:29 AM	nope, applys to everyone. it's from PHBII. Imbuded Summoning is what yer thinking of.
Arem_K 12-07-06, 01:45 AM	The arcanist summons things a bit differently. At the highest levels he will have gate, which is totally awesome and makes any arcanist beat the pants of a druid in summoning. Before that there are spells like planar binding and animate undead. Basically, you just want to avoid all the spells with the word summon in their name.
NineInchNall 12-07-06, 02:11 AM	... Shadowcraft Mages can ... sort of ... arcane ... summon ... not real, but ... HYPERREAL! ... Fiendbinders rock, by the by. Playing one is like playing someone from actual literature.
icedrake 12-07-06, 02:35 AM	What would be a sample build for a fiendbinder?
neceros 12-07-06, 05:10 AM	It's true: Psions rule.
Bonzai 12-07-06, 10:22 AM	They were pretty bad, but complete mage and some other recent releases have helped make it a bit better. A Wizard can take the UA summoner variant, which will dovetail wonderfully into the Master Specialist PrC. There is also a reseve feat that lets you summon elementals for free. Sure they are weaker that the max you can cast, but on the other hand they can now be used all the time. You can use them to set off traps and such, and the enemy now has a small speed bump to go over to get to you. As a Sorcerer, you were given a boost, but only for demons. With the Infernal Heritige and Demon Master feats you get a +3 to caster level, when it comes to summoning fiendish creatures. You can get both at lvl 1 (if your human), and have your 1st level summons last 4 rounds instead of 1. You can also use the reserve feats.
ShubNiggurath 12-07-06, 11:15 AM	The UA conjurer variant is not bad at all, and with the Master specialist PrC I would say that it is well on par with the druid as a summoner. Maybe even stronger, as a summoner. Obviously, the druid has better HP,BAB,an animal companion, wildshape... but that's another story.
Prominence 12-07-06, 11:35 AM	Believe I had a post on this a while back. A wizard takes over summoning around level 13. It involved Master Specialist, Augmented Summoning, Imbued Summoning, Metamagic School Focus (conjuration) for +0 imbued summoning, and the spell that reduces casting time in Dragon Magic I believe, Arcane Spellsurge? Anyway, those combine to give you 2d4+2 summons with any 1-3rd level buff you want. At higher levels, or with incantrix and whatnot, you can combine reach/chain spell to use Polymorph on all your Summons. It should be noted only a wizard can do this very efficiently. -If you went Alienist, you can now polymorph all your summons into Outsiders of your choice. Everyone wants an instant Astra Deva team. If a Master specialist is heading toward abjuration, they can do crazier things. For isntance, they can use Major School Esoterica and Reach/chain to shoot shapechange on all their summons. Everyone also likes a team of Balors / Solars.
FeceMan 12-07-06, 11:56 PM	Hmmm... Imbued summoning + a monster with mage armor or invisibility...nice. Though I'm sure there's more brokenation to be found, I'm not looking through the spells right now.
Friendlyfish 12-08-06, 01:36 AM	I think that anybody, including druids and clerics, can use imbued summoning. I don't think that there's much that an arcanist can do with the Summoning line that druids and clerics don't do just as well and with the added bonus of their superior class features. Let's face it, arcane summoners: we play one for flavor, not for optimization. If you have time to polymorph your summons, maybe you should be polymorphing your party tanks instead; it's probably a better expenditure of resources. I agree though, it seems to fly in the face of commonly understood and accepted fantasy archetypes for the DRUID to be the master summoner. Or even the cleric.
CannibalSmith 12-08-06, 02:27 AM	nope, applys to everyone. it's from PHBII. Imbuded Summoning is what yer thinking of. The description of the feat says nothing about when you summon several creatures with a single spell. Also, what about swarms? Does the effect apply to all of the creatures summoned? If not, can you spend additional buffs on the same summon to enchant all of your creatures? Or maybe you may not summon multiple creatures when using the feat?
FeceMan 12-08-06, 07:05 PM	The description of the feat says nothing about when you summon several creatures with a single spell. Also, what about swarms? Does the effect apply to all of the creatures summoned? If not, can you spend additional buffs on the same summon to enchant all of your creatures? Or maybe you may not summon multiple creatures when using the feat? Too many questions that are for FAQ.
CannibalSmith 12-09-06, 05:50 AM	What/which FAQ? Where should I re-post these questions? The Character Optimization Board FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=64298), the 3.5 summon monster list (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=180887), The Comprehensive Summoning Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=216497), or Druid Spell Combos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290658)?
FriendlyFrog 12-09-06, 08:03 AM	It's true: Psions rule. Well, they did rule, but Complete psionic nerfed it big time. You can now have only one Astral construct at a time.
Prominence 12-09-06, 09:50 AM	I think that anybody, including druids and clerics, can use imbued summoning. I don't think that there's much that an arcanist can do with the Summoning line that druids and clerics don't do just as well and with the added bonus of their superior class features. Let's face it, arcane summoners: we play one for flavor, not for optimization. True, but I tend to see more wizard builds trying to overcome the adjustment. If you have time to polymorph your summons, maybe you should be polymorphing your party tanks instead; it's probably a better expenditure of resources. ...you're using chain/reach to accomplish this. Why the heck wouldn't you polymorph everyone? You can probably hit them all. Besides, a party has one, maybe two tanks usually. Polymorphing them is no problem. Also note if you're doing something such as Alienist then polymorphing the summons is stronger - you can choose outsider forms.
Yorath_theWolf 12-09-06, 12:13 PM	Also note if you're doing something such as Alienist then polymorphing the summons is stronger - you can choose outsider forms. yeah but playing an Alienist also means that ALL you can ever summon is Psuedonatural critters. this means that you can't switch up and start summoning elementals and the like for the best summons in the game(depending on the elemental of course.)
Prominence 12-09-06, 12:47 PM	SM9 - Couatl (outsider), devil (outsider), elder elementals (elementals) SM8 - Lillends (outsider), Vrock (outsider), Great elementals (elementals) SM7 - Avoral, Babau, huge elementals Seems as we go down the list, we always have good/evil outsider options and elemental options. Polymorph, of course, works for elementals. So we do not need those wonderful feats to get the better elemental types - we simply need polymorph, chain spell, and reach spell (or arcane reach Archmage). Furthermore, ANY wizard can do this with Metamagic Spell Trigger without increasing the spell level. So I guess Alienist isn't needed to pull this off, but Master Specialist is needed for swift summons.
mercury529 12-09-06, 01:53 PM	As NIN said, a Shadowcraft Mage can potentially make an excellent summoner. If I am not mistaken, with use of earth spell and a heightened silent image, a ScM could cast a 9th level Gate spell to summon without an XP cost. The being would be at least 90% real. More likely it would be more than a 100% real allowing bonus damage/hp etc. (as long as your DM allowed the bonuses beyond 100% reality). On top of that, the spell would be automatically extended with the 4th level of the ScM. It would also be Silent automatically with the 2nd level of the ScM (allowing you to cast from invisibility without any indication). Odds are it would be cast using Arcane Thesis on Silent Image allowing for another free extend of the spell (and any other 1 slot metamagic adjustment that might apply). And if you want to add the icing on the cake, Residual Metamagic would allow you to cast it again from a 1st (or 0th should you have taken the gnome substitution level) slot on the next turn. This technique would apply to any other Conjuration (summoning) you wished to use. I think a ScM could make an excellent summoner. And if he did not feel like summoning that day, he would have a lot of other options as well. Edit: My mistake. I looked at Gate at it actually classifies as a (Calling) conjuration when you are summoning creatures. So Gate will not work with a Heightened Silent Image.
Swifty 12-12-06, 03:06 PM	Demonologist PRC from BoVD make amazing summoners. They eventually get the ability to summon monsters from 4 lists higher when summoning demons. With a specialist conjurer thats alot of summon monster IX's per day.
iconoplast 12-12-06, 04:53 PM	Sand Shaper (From Sandstorm) gives access to Summon Desert Ally, which is a Nature's Ally-esque summoning list with a construct template auto-applied. You get access to all the spells when you take your first Sand Shaper level which, although it bumps your Caster level, does not advance your spellcasting. Not sure it's worth it. Arcane Spellsurge is an awesome idea, though. I think Arcane Spellsurging for Standard Action (instead of Full Round) imbued (Girallon's Blessing) Augmented Summons + Swift Action Haste-ing them sounds pretty fun. Almost as fun as Standard Action (Instead of Full Round) imbued & augmented summons + Swift Action Rapid (from the metamagic feat) summons. It does require the wizard to not take Rapid Conjuring, though.
FeceMan 12-12-06, 05:11 PM	What/which FAQ? The official FAQ. Also, demonologist needs to offer half caster progression OR not require the ability to cast spells. Also, the required feats suck and cause MAD.