Arcane support needed, help please. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane support needed, help please. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaaz
09-06-05, 08:02 PM Well, after a ridiculous encounter that resulted in an 80% PK, the group decided to go with their second option of restarting a new game.

I want to play the arcane support for the party mostly because no one else can do it effectively. There are some issues with this, though.

1. The party will likely need (mostly from style of the DM) someone who can either nuke or manage melee properly. (as an example - using a charisma damage spell to take down a troll the one game)
(a): Sorcerers would be ideal for this, but the very limited 'tricks' he gets won't do for #2 below
(b): Utilitarian coverage would be minimal under sorc, but due to DM style, party will run out of spells without sorc in party.

2. Item creation may be called for, and since I'm one of the few people in the playing group who sees the value in it, I'll likely need to take the feats.
(a): reducing later-level effectiveness as sorc by taking item creation feats isn't smart, but being limited on spells (Wiz) for a DM who is 100% action isn't a good thing.

3. Currently using core, without psionics, plus Kingdoms of Kalamar material and other expansion material from many companies on approval. For instance his first exposure to a character using the Draconic Breath feat from CArc resulting in him imposing a future ban on it because it saved the party's collective butts more than once at low levels.

The divine support is being played by my wife, who shares my thoughts on the competence of the other players in the game to pick up slack in these areas.

I'm temped to split the road and go Sorc with Item creation feats and work with Arcane preparation at first level, and use up some of my feats to make items for the party.

So, with all that out of the way, what would you suggest?
-------
The above was cross-posted in "what's a player to do" but I came here hoping to find bits of wisdom and clearer answers on my ideas.

Ok, first things first, is there anything specifically barring sorcerers with Arcane Preparation from preparing spells from a spellbook with spells he himself scribed? the PHB makes constant reference spells a wizard 'knows', like in the section on borrowed spellbooks, and Arcane Prep. technically says prepare any spell you know, so with the proper bit of playing into it and spending money on a spell book, would this work?

Secondly, it's book sorc. I know they're weak, but I'm really not wanting to give up the spontaenious aspect of things, as it's saved things more than once. The only downfall of this is the item crafting feats. Suggestions on ways to expand that?

Thanks again, guys.
feintmaster
09-06-05, 08:18 PM If you want some nuke em damage with spontaneous spellcasting, there's the Warmage base class from the miniatures handbook, I realize that it's not on your list of books, but if you could somehow find out about it you could profit from it greatly.

Also if you want to be a wicked buffer, and item creator, there's the Artificer, but that's from ECS, which isn't on the list either, but again if you could find out about it another way that could help you even more.
TorcheClien
09-06-05, 08:34 PM You may want to look at Warlock (CA), for a combination of 1 & 2, but he could only do item creation once he reaches level 12, and if he has the right feats.
X-Codes
09-06-05, 08:39 PM Ok, I have a very important question. By arcane support, do you mean arcane SUPPORT or a blaster? The difference being: the former is a Bard and the latter is a Sorcerer.

Bard - Max out your Charisma and increace your Strength to decent levels. Be a human and take these feats in the following order: Words of Creation (BoED), Combat Expertise, Allied Defense (Shining South), Improved Trip, Improved Combat Expertise (CWar). In combat, start by singing Inspire Courage round 1 with Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost (CArc). Round 2, maintain the song, move up 5' away from the tank, and max out Combat Expertise while trying to trip a nearby opponent with your whip or aiding your tank's attack (if there isn't anything really trippable nearby). This tactic is easily countered, but I doubt your DM would consider any of the ways to do so.

Sorcerer - Max out Charisma and take the Leadership feat. For your minion, select a Bard/Incantatrix (PGtF). Three levels of Incantatrix is plenty, and Bard should qualify for it by level 7. Just have the bard metamagic all your spells while singing any song that suits the moment (most likely Inspire Greatness).

EDIT: This DM doesn't sound like hes very good at this. If he can't deal with a feat like Draconic Breath and wipes the party with an overpowered encounter, then you might just be better off looking for another game.
PhaedrusXY
09-06-05, 08:55 PM You may want to look at Warlock (CA), for a combination of 1 & 2, but he could only do item creation once he reaches level 12, and if he has the right feats.I agree. Go with a Warlock with max Use Magic Device ranks (they can take 10 on it after 4th level or so) and take two levels of Chameleon. Use the floating feat from Chameleon to pick up whatever item creation feat you need that day. You will be able to make any magic item, use any magic item, and never run out of "spells".
slade_caizer
09-06-05, 10:13 PM I've also gotta throw my vote in with Warlock. The item crafting will come later, but you'll have plenty of staying power, blasting power, and (if you pick your invocations and feats carefully) a LOT of tactical support.

A Warmage would be a good alternate in my book, but I always favor Warlock. I've gotta say, though, that your DM sounds a lot like the one I first played under. A real putz. Hopefully everyone will be able to get their acts together.

BTW what did he kill most of you with?? Does your DM have a clear favorite type of enemy? For example my players know I LOVE the undead...so I mess with them all the time by misleading them into thinking that's what they're dealing with. It's fun watching them scramble to switch tactics on the fly.
Richmud
09-06-05, 10:21 PM If you do go sorc with arcane preperation you should go with the mage of the arcane order prestige class from complate arcane. The spellpool is great for getting utility spells when you need them
Jaaz
09-06-05, 10:35 PM If you want some nuke em damage with spontaneous spellcasting, there's the Warmage base class from the miniatures handbook, I realize that it's not on your list of books, but if you could somehow find out about it you could profit from it greatly.
Warmage is also in Complete Arcane, and as appealing as it is for the arcane nuke machine, it lacks much of the utility I'm also after.

Also if you want to be a wicked buffer, and item creator, there's the Artificer, but that's from ECS, which isn't on the list either, but again if you could find out about it another way that could help you even more.
ECS is out, but thanks for the thought. I'd go with one of those if I could.

I agree. Go with a Warlock with max Use Magic Device ranks (they can take 10 on it after 4th level or so) and take two levels of Chameleon. Use the floating feat from Chameleon to pick up whatever item creation feat you need that day. You will be able to make any magic item, use any magic item, and never run out of "spells".
Warlock's an option to continually deal out damage and/or effects, but not a very good team player beyond that. Also, where would I find this amazing Chameleon?

Bard - Max out your Charisma and increace your Strength to decent levels. Be a human and take these feats in the following order: Words of Creation (BoED), Combat Expertise, Allied Defense (Shining South), Improved Trip, Improved Combat Expertise (CWar). In combat, start by singing Inspire Courage round 1 with Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost (CArc). Round 2, maintain the song, move up 5' away from the tank, and max out Combat Expertise while trying to trip a nearby opponent with your whip or aiding your tank's attack (if there isn't anything really trippable nearby). This tactic is easily countered, but I doubt your DM would consider any of the ways to do so.
Word of Creation has a Base will save of +5 as a prerequisite, so can't take it at level 1, maybe at level 6. Also, can't find Inspirational Boost in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer. This is looking at the long-term deal, which is good, but what could I do at first level? (where we're starting)

Sorcerer - Max out Charisma and take the Leadership feat. For your minion, select a Bard/Incantatrix (PGtF). Three levels of Incantatrix is plenty, and Bard should qualify for it by level 7. Just have the bard metamagic all your spells while singing any song that suits the moment (most likely Inspire Greatness).
Might be a good idea for the sorc, except this DM, upon receiving word from me that the Intantitrix was updated in PGtF, simply said "So? The Incantatrix is the Incantitrix". Obviously still stuck in the past with the MoF version (which my sorc A. couldn't get into easily and B. didn't seem that great compared to the updated)

EDIT: This DM doesn't sound like hes very good at this. If he can't deal with a feat like Draconic Breath and wipes the party with an overpowered encounter, then you might just be better off looking for another game.
You know, considering the point just above, and several others, I may shortly. The overpowering encounter was because he was running a published adventure by book that wasn't linear, and we accidentally found our way to the 4th level of the dungeon when we were only suited for the 2nd, not to mention that the published CR for something with a free action area of effect DC 15 stun weapon was 3, when I was suggesting 5 or 7....and there were 7 of them.
PhaedrusXY
09-06-05, 10:39 PM The Chameleon is from Races of Destiny.
feintmaster
09-06-05, 11:02 PM I never really read the Chameleon properly, I suppose, otherwise I'd have crapped my pants back then. If you were to go with any spellcasting class, really, you could a good item maker, that is if you have 2 levels of Chameleon. Just take a bunch of artisan feats. I realise that they're in ECS, but are they in Complete Arcane too?

If not, you could go to http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/ and download the feats PDF file and it has them all in it, as well as the pre-reqs. So a Warlock (I hear good things, but don't know much about it), or the Warmage (I couldn't tell you which is the better choice, but I really like Warmage, armored spellcasting is wicked, as well as their "edge" for the damage factor) but if you do go Warmage make sure to get the extra edge feat, from Complete Arcane, useful.
Lorimo the Disbeliever
09-07-05, 01:18 AM Sorcerer -> Mage of Arcane Order (Complete Arcane)

Full sorcerer power + some versatility

As for Item creation feats - divide them between all party casters.
feintmaster
09-07-05, 01:46 AM The Human Master of Making, is what I'll call him,

He can vary depending on whether you want him to be a spontaneous caster or not.

Spontaneous:

Warmage 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 3

Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (6th), Theurgic Creationist (9th), XX (12th, 15th, 18th)

XX feats could be any Artisan feats you want, or any other if you'd like, whatever floats your boat.

Prepared:

Wizard 1/ Cloistered (or regular, if you want) Cleric 3/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 4

Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (Var), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Theurgic Creationist (6th), XX (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th)

I'll explain what makes this so good, Theurgic Creationist allows you to add all of the spellcasting levels you have, and mix that up with the Mystic Theurge, and for 17, or 16 levels, you actually count yourself as having 27, or 26 spellcasting levels. HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW! ... Heh heh, sorry, got a little carried away there.
Jaaz
09-08-05, 02:00 AM The Human Master of Making, is what I'll call him,

He can vary depending on whether you want him to be a spontaneous caster or not.

Spontaneous:

Warmage 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 3

Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (6th), Theurgic Creationist (9th), XX (12th, 15th, 18th)

XX feats could be any Artisan feats you want, or any other if you'd like, whatever floats your boat.

Prepared:

Wizard 1/ Cloistered (or regular, if you want) Cleric 3/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 4

Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (Var), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Theurgic Creationist (6th), XX (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th)

I'll explain what makes this so good, Theurgic Creationist allows you to add all of the spellcasting levels you have, and mix that up with the Mystic Theurge, and for 17, or 16 levels, you actually count yourself as having 27, or 26 spellcasting levels. HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW! ... Heh heh, sorry, got a little carried away there.
Wow...That'd be nice. What're the sources for Recocious Spellcaster and Theurgic Creationist?

Got a good point pointed out to me on the other board where I could get party help for the scroll work and use them for utility spells, keeping the nuke/melee management in prepared slots as wizard. Considering that route, and wouldn't hurt XP too much.

As for the advice of Chameleon, thanks for the pointer guys. It would be an amazing boost, except that for one of the (ridiculous) house rules he has about prestige classes. Any class that has 10 levels, you have to keep leveling till it's done. Anything less (5 level classes) and you can leave at any time. Also, the class may get 'vetoed' by him simply for the emulation factor day to day. The more I think about this the more I'm thinking I may drop the game altogether. This is still great advice. Thanks.
jstorrie
09-08-05, 02:31 AM You could just go Warlock 12 / Chameleon X. That delays your unrestricted item creation to level 14, though.

Direct damage is actually a pretty poor way of 'blasting' your way through encounters. Save-or-dies, negative levels, ability damage and general disabling spells work much better. Wizards in turn make better blasters than sorcerors because they can memorize a variety of spells per day and then use them against specific weaknesses. Sorcerors, ironically, tend to make better support characters, because the restricted spell list lends itself well to a selected buff suite applied at each encounter.

Wiz 10 / Loremaster 10 is a surprisingly strong build, if you select your spells well and use them properly. Consider that generally, you're only going to run around four encounters a day. Given your very diverse spell list, what are the odds that you won't have the trick up your sleeve suitable to each one? Don't forget also that a huge spell list gives you the freedom to pick up divination spells which you can use before adventuring, so that you know what you'll need. Your Lore ability helps here, too. If you target weak saves and take advantage of specific conditions, you won't have to use your magic bullets (direct damage and level drain) very often at all.
X-Codes
09-08-05, 08:00 AM Word of Creation has a Base will save of +5 as a prerequisite, so can't take it at level 1, maybe at level 6. Also, can't find Inspirational Boost in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer. This is looking at the long-term deal, which is good, but what could I do at first level? (where we're starting)

Yeah, move up Combat Expertise and Allied Defense. Also, you just be a bard at first level. A one-time bless spell thats witty instead of pious.

Although, technically, you can sing and dance all day as long as you don't cast any spells, and why would you do that at first level? You don't even have any except for a couple cantrips.

You know, considering the point just above, and several others, I may shortly. The overpowering encounter was because he was running a published adventure by book that wasn't linear, and we accidentally found our way to the 4th level of the dungeon when we were only suited for the 2nd, not to mention that the published CR for something with a free action area of effect DC 15 stun weapon was 3, when I was suggesting 5 or 7....and there were 7 of them.

What module? Do you know the names of these creatures? ...Don't give me that look. :rolleyes:
feintmaster
09-08-05, 11:22 PM It was Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane, page 181.

And Theurgic Creationist is from a Dragon mag. Dragon Mag. 325 pg. 64, I believe. Yeah, sorry about that if you can't work with that.
Jaaz
09-10-05, 04:17 AM Yeah, move up Combat Expertise and Allied Defense. Also, you just be a bard at first level. A one-time bless spell thats witty instead of pious.

Although, technically, you can sing and dance all day as long as you don't cast any spells, and why would you do that at first level? You don't even have any except for a couple cantrips.

What module? Do you know the names of these creatures? ...Don't give me that look. :rolleyes:
Bard/Words of Creation: interesting, but not what I'm aiming for. Thanks for the references though.

Module: Rampan Athik (I think that's how it's spelt, never saw the book) the companion dungeon to it, though I don't know if it's in the same book or not was Stone Heart Mountain Dugneon, and the creatures were MObats. Which, without revealing the maneuverability class of them to me when I asked, pulled perfect maneuverability flight to fly off carrying my char's body (about 160 lbs all told), while the other one did the same thing with the cleric in full plate. (over 350 lbs if I remember!!) Also, they were medium based creatures with 10' wingspans. :uh-huh: Well, whatever. For someone who was so :censored: about PC carrying capacity (and carrying over the -1 swim checks per 5 lbs rule from 3.0), he sure doesn't pay attention to things like that for creatures he runs.

feintmaster: thanks for the pointer to the Complete arcane feats. I completely forgot they were there. Both feats may work out, but I'm not counting on anything till we meet up and talk next Sunday.

Thanks all. Great help, if none of it gets through I'll probably leave the game anyways. I'm just 1 straw away.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaaz 09-06-05, 08:02 PM	Well, after a ridiculous encounter that resulted in an 80% PK, the group decided to go with their second option of restarting a new game. I want to play the arcane support for the party mostly because no one else can do it effectively. There are some issues with this, though. 1. The party will likely need (mostly from style of the DM) someone who can either nuke or manage melee properly. (as an example - using a charisma damage spell to take down a troll the one game) (a): Sorcerers would be ideal for this, but the very limited 'tricks' he gets won't do for #2 below (b): Utilitarian coverage would be minimal under sorc, but due to DM style, party will run out of spells without sorc in party. 2. Item creation may be called for, and since I'm one of the few people in the playing group who sees the value in it, I'll likely need to take the feats. (a): reducing later-level effectiveness as sorc by taking item creation feats isn't smart, but being limited on spells (Wiz) for a DM who is 100% action isn't a good thing. 3. Currently using core, without psionics, plus Kingdoms of Kalamar material and other expansion material from many companies on approval. For instance his first exposure to a character using the Draconic Breath feat from CArc resulting in him imposing a future ban on it because it saved the party's collective butts more than once at low levels. The divine support is being played by my wife, who shares my thoughts on the competence of the other players in the game to pick up slack in these areas. I'm temped to split the road and go Sorc with Item creation feats and work with Arcane preparation at first level, and use up some of my feats to make items for the party. So, with all that out of the way, what would you suggest? ------- The above was cross-posted in "what's a player to do" but I came here hoping to find bits of wisdom and clearer answers on my ideas. Ok, first things first, is there anything specifically barring sorcerers with Arcane Preparation from preparing spells from a spellbook with spells he himself scribed? the PHB makes constant reference spells a wizard 'knows', like in the section on borrowed spellbooks, and Arcane Prep. technically says prepare any spell you know, so with the proper bit of playing into it and spending money on a spell book, would this work? Secondly, it's book sorc. I know they're weak, but I'm really not wanting to give up the spontaenious aspect of things, as it's saved things more than once. The only downfall of this is the item crafting feats. Suggestions on ways to expand that? Thanks again, guys.
feintmaster 09-06-05, 08:18 PM	If you want some nuke em damage with spontaneous spellcasting, there's the Warmage base class from the miniatures handbook, I realize that it's not on your list of books, but if you could somehow find out about it you could profit from it greatly. Also if you want to be a wicked buffer, and item creator, there's the Artificer, but that's from ECS, which isn't on the list either, but again if you could find out about it another way that could help you even more.
TorcheClien 09-06-05, 08:34 PM	You may want to look at Warlock (CA), for a combination of 1 & 2, but he could only do item creation once he reaches level 12, and if he has the right feats.
X-Codes 09-06-05, 08:39 PM	Ok, I have a very important question. By arcane support, do you mean arcane SUPPORT or a blaster? The difference being: the former is a Bard and the latter is a Sorcerer. Bard - Max out your Charisma and increace your Strength to decent levels. Be a human and take these feats in the following order: Words of Creation (BoED), Combat Expertise, Allied Defense (Shining South), Improved Trip, Improved Combat Expertise (CWar). In combat, start by singing Inspire Courage round 1 with Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost (CArc). Round 2, maintain the song, move up 5' away from the tank, and max out Combat Expertise while trying to trip a nearby opponent with your whip or aiding your tank's attack (if there isn't anything really trippable nearby). This tactic is easily countered, but I doubt your DM would consider any of the ways to do so. Sorcerer - Max out Charisma and take the Leadership feat. For your minion, select a Bard/Incantatrix (PGtF). Three levels of Incantatrix is plenty, and Bard should qualify for it by level 7. Just have the bard metamagic all your spells while singing any song that suits the moment (most likely Inspire Greatness). EDIT: This DM doesn't sound like hes very good at this. If he can't deal with a feat like Draconic Breath and wipes the party with an overpowered encounter, then you might just be better off looking for another game.
PhaedrusXY 09-06-05, 08:55 PM	You may want to look at Warlock (CA), for a combination of 1 & 2, but he could only do item creation once he reaches level 12, and if he has the right feats.I agree. Go with a Warlock with max Use Magic Device ranks (they can take 10 on it after 4th level or so) and take two levels of Chameleon. Use the floating feat from Chameleon to pick up whatever item creation feat you need that day. You will be able to make any magic item, use any magic item, and never run out of "spells".
slade_caizer 09-06-05, 10:13 PM	I've also gotta throw my vote in with Warlock. The item crafting will come later, but you'll have plenty of staying power, blasting power, and (if you pick your invocations and feats carefully) a LOT of tactical support. A Warmage would be a good alternate in my book, but I always favor Warlock. I've gotta say, though, that your DM sounds a lot like the one I first played under. A real putz. Hopefully everyone will be able to get their acts together. BTW what did he kill most of you with?? Does your DM have a clear favorite type of enemy? For example my players know I LOVE the undead...so I mess with them all the time by misleading them into thinking that's what they're dealing with. It's fun watching them scramble to switch tactics on the fly.
Richmud 09-06-05, 10:21 PM	If you do go sorc with arcane preperation you should go with the mage of the arcane order prestige class from complate arcane. The spellpool is great for getting utility spells when you need them
Jaaz 09-06-05, 10:35 PM	If you want some nuke em damage with spontaneous spellcasting, there's the Warmage base class from the miniatures handbook, I realize that it's not on your list of books, but if you could somehow find out about it you could profit from it greatly. Warmage is also in Complete Arcane, and as appealing as it is for the arcane nuke machine, it lacks much of the utility I'm also after. Also if you want to be a wicked buffer, and item creator, there's the Artificer, but that's from ECS, which isn't on the list either, but again if you could find out about it another way that could help you even more. ECS is out, but thanks for the thought. I'd go with one of those if I could. I agree. Go with a Warlock with max Use Magic Device ranks (they can take 10 on it after 4th level or so) and take two levels of Chameleon. Use the floating feat from Chameleon to pick up whatever item creation feat you need that day. You will be able to make any magic item, use any magic item, and never run out of "spells". Warlock's an option to continually deal out damage and/or effects, but not a very good team player beyond that. Also, where would I find this amazing Chameleon? Bard - Max out your Charisma and increace your Strength to decent levels. Be a human and take these feats in the following order: Words of Creation (BoED), Combat Expertise, Allied Defense (Shining South), Improved Trip, Improved Combat Expertise (CWar). In combat, start by singing Inspire Courage round 1 with Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost (CArc). Round 2, maintain the song, move up 5' away from the tank, and max out Combat Expertise while trying to trip a nearby opponent with your whip or aiding your tank's attack (if there isn't anything really trippable nearby). This tactic is easily countered, but I doubt your DM would consider any of the ways to do so. Word of Creation has a Base will save of +5 as a prerequisite, so can't take it at level 1, maybe at level 6. Also, can't find Inspirational Boost in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer. This is looking at the long-term deal, which is good, but what could I do at first level? (where we're starting) Sorcerer - Max out Charisma and take the Leadership feat. For your minion, select a Bard/Incantatrix (PGtF). Three levels of Incantatrix is plenty, and Bard should qualify for it by level 7. Just have the bard metamagic all your spells while singing any song that suits the moment (most likely Inspire Greatness). Might be a good idea for the sorc, except this DM, upon receiving word from me that the Intantitrix was updated in PGtF, simply said "So? The Incantatrix is the Incantitrix". Obviously still stuck in the past with the MoF version (which my sorc A. couldn't get into easily and B. didn't seem that great compared to the updated) EDIT: This DM doesn't sound like hes very good at this. If he can't deal with a feat like Draconic Breath and wipes the party with an overpowered encounter, then you might just be better off looking for another game. You know, considering the point just above, and several others, I may shortly. The overpowering encounter was because he was running a published adventure by book that wasn't linear, and we accidentally found our way to the 4th level of the dungeon when we were only suited for the 2nd, not to mention that the published CR for something with a free action area of effect DC 15 stun weapon was 3, when I was suggesting 5 or 7....and there were 7 of them.
PhaedrusXY 09-06-05, 10:39 PM	The Chameleon is from Races of Destiny.
feintmaster 09-06-05, 11:02 PM	I never really read the Chameleon properly, I suppose, otherwise I'd have crapped my pants back then. If you were to go with any spellcasting class, really, you could a good item maker, that is if you have 2 levels of Chameleon. Just take a bunch of artisan feats. I realise that they're in ECS, but are they in Complete Arcane too? If not, you could go to http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/ and download the feats PDF file and it has them all in it, as well as the pre-reqs. So a Warlock (I hear good things, but don't know much about it), or the Warmage (I couldn't tell you which is the better choice, but I really like Warmage, armored spellcasting is wicked, as well as their "edge" for the damage factor) but if you do go Warmage make sure to get the extra edge feat, from Complete Arcane, useful.
Lorimo the Disbeliever 09-07-05, 01:18 AM	Sorcerer -> Mage of Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) Full sorcerer power + some versatility As for Item creation feats - divide them between all party casters.
feintmaster 09-07-05, 01:46 AM	The Human Master of Making, is what I'll call him, He can vary depending on whether you want him to be a spontaneous caster or not. Spontaneous: Warmage 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 3 Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (6th), Theurgic Creationist (9th), XX (12th, 15th, 18th) XX feats could be any Artisan feats you want, or any other if you'd like, whatever floats your boat. Prepared: Wizard 1/ Cloistered (or regular, if you want) Cleric 3/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 4 Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (Var), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Theurgic Creationist (6th), XX (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) I'll explain what makes this so good, Theurgic Creationist allows you to add all of the spellcasting levels you have, and mix that up with the Mystic Theurge, and for 17, or 16 levels, you actually count yourself as having 27, or 26 spellcasting levels. HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW! ... Heh heh, sorry, got a little carried away there.
Jaaz 09-08-05, 02:00 AM	The Human Master of Making, is what I'll call him, He can vary depending on whether you want him to be a spontaneous caster or not. Spontaneous: Warmage 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 3 Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (6th), Theurgic Creationist (9th), XX (12th, 15th, 18th) XX feats could be any Artisan feats you want, or any other if you'd like, whatever floats your boat. Prepared: Wizard 1/ Cloistered (or regular, if you want) Cleric 3/ Chameleon 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ XX 4 Feats: Recocious spellcaster (1st), Able Learner (human), Practised Spellcaster (Var), Craft Wondrous Item (3rd), Theurgic Creationist (6th), XX (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) I'll explain what makes this so good, Theurgic Creationist allows you to add all of the spellcasting levels you have, and mix that up with the Mystic Theurge, and for 17, or 16 levels, you actually count yourself as having 27, or 26 spellcasting levels. HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW! ... Heh heh, sorry, got a little carried away there. Wow...That'd be nice. What're the sources for Recocious Spellcaster and Theurgic Creationist? Got a good point pointed out to me on the other board where I could get party help for the scroll work and use them for utility spells, keeping the nuke/melee management in prepared slots as wizard. Considering that route, and wouldn't hurt XP too much. As for the advice of Chameleon, thanks for the pointer guys. It would be an amazing boost, except that for one of the (ridiculous) house rules he has about prestige classes. Any class that has 10 levels, you have to keep leveling till it's done. Anything less (5 level classes) and you can leave at any time. Also, the class may get 'vetoed' by him simply for the emulation factor day to day. The more I think about this the more I'm thinking I may drop the game altogether. This is still great advice. Thanks.
jstorrie 09-08-05, 02:31 AM	You could just go Warlock 12 / Chameleon X. That delays your unrestricted item creation to level 14, though. Direct damage is actually a pretty poor way of 'blasting' your way through encounters. Save-or-dies, negative levels, ability damage and general disabling spells work much better. Wizards in turn make better blasters than sorcerors because they can memorize a variety of spells per day and then use them against specific weaknesses. Sorcerors, ironically, tend to make better support characters, because the restricted spell list lends itself well to a selected buff suite applied at each encounter. Wiz 10 / Loremaster 10 is a surprisingly strong build, if you select your spells well and use them properly. Consider that generally, you're only going to run around four encounters a day. Given your very diverse spell list, what are the odds that you won't have the trick up your sleeve suitable to each one? Don't forget also that a huge spell list gives you the freedom to pick up divination spells which you can use before adventuring, so that you know what you'll need. Your Lore ability helps here, too. If you target weak saves and take advantage of specific conditions, you won't have to use your magic bullets (direct damage and level drain) very often at all.
X-Codes 09-08-05, 08:00 AM	Word of Creation has a Base will save of +5 as a prerequisite, so can't take it at level 1, maybe at level 6. Also, can't find Inspirational Boost in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer. This is looking at the long-term deal, which is good, but what could I do at first level? (where we're starting) Yeah, move up Combat Expertise and Allied Defense. Also, you just be a bard at first level. A one-time bless spell thats witty instead of pious. Although, technically, you can sing and dance all day as long as you don't cast any spells, and why would you do that at first level? You don't even have any except for a couple cantrips. You know, considering the point just above, and several others, I may shortly. The overpowering encounter was because he was running a published adventure by book that wasn't linear, and we accidentally found our way to the 4th level of the dungeon when we were only suited for the 2nd, not to mention that the published CR for something with a free action area of effect DC 15 stun weapon was 3, when I was suggesting 5 or 7....and there were 7 of them. What module? Do you know the names of these creatures? ...Don't give me that look. :rolleyes:
feintmaster 09-08-05, 11:22 PM	It was Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane, page 181. And Theurgic Creationist is from a Dragon mag. Dragon Mag. 325 pg. 64, I believe. Yeah, sorry about that if you can't work with that.
Jaaz 09-10-05, 04:17 AM	Yeah, move up Combat Expertise and Allied Defense. Also, you just be a bard at first level. A one-time bless spell thats witty instead of pious. Although, technically, you can sing and dance all day as long as you don't cast any spells, and why would you do that at first level? You don't even have any except for a couple cantrips. What module? Do you know the names of these creatures? ...Don't give me that look. :rolleyes: Bard/Words of Creation: interesting, but not what I'm aiming for. Thanks for the references though. Module: Rampan Athik (I think that's how it's spelt, never saw the book) the companion dungeon to it, though I don't know if it's in the same book or not was Stone Heart Mountain Dugneon, and the creatures were MObats. Which, without revealing the maneuverability class of them to me when I asked, pulled perfect maneuverability flight to fly off carrying my char's body (about 160 lbs all told), while the other one did the same thing with the cleric in full plate. (over 350 lbs if I remember!!) Also, they were medium based creatures with 10' wingspans. :uh-huh: Well, whatever. For someone who was so :censored: about PC carrying capacity (and carrying over the -1 swim checks per 5 lbs rule from 3.0), he sure doesn't pay attention to things like that for creatures he runs. feintmaster: thanks for the pointer to the Complete arcane feats. I completely forgot they were there. Both feats may work out, but I'm not counting on anything till we meet up and talk next Sunday. Thanks all. Great help, if none of it gets through I'll probably leave the game anyways. I'm just 1 straw away.