Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 06:23 PM	I am looking for the highest save DC possible vs the 9th level Evocation spell Implosion. The build Im thinking of is Neutral Good naenkrau illumian wizard5/incantatrix10/fatespinner5 stacking up metamagic heightening effects like crazy. Wizard will scribe a scroll of Implosion into his book since its arcane on the warmage list, at 18th level take arcane thesis (implosion). Other feats include Improved Sigil Krau (+2 levels), sanctum spell (+1 level), nonlethal substitution, sacred vow, vow of nonviolence (+4DC), earth sense and earth spell (+2 levels when adding nonlethal substitution with Arcane Thesis). Add Sanctum Spell and nonlethal substitution to Implosion, nonlethal sub will bring it down to 8th level. Instant Metamagic (Heighten) will bring it back upto 9th again triggering Earth Spell. Implosion is now being cast as a 14th level spell! Next I throw in Seal Fate and Spin Fate for a net +15 to the save DC! DC = 43+charisma assuming a reasonable 36 charisma we have DC57. Unless you are Incorporeal or you pray to Pelor for a natural 20 you Implode! Have a Nice Day! Are there any better ways to get Implosion as irresistable as possible? And how in the name of the Abyss can you implode somebody in a nonlethal way?
Radijs 11-08-06, 06:25 PM	Wouldn't casting something like implosion ruin your vow of nonviolence?
jstorrie 11-08-06, 06:28 PM	Nonlethal Implosion? Har, har. Your DM is going to punch you.
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 06:30 PM	I had to minmax my catch phrase soon enough. And yes, I too cannot justify the existence of nonlethal spell +implosion. Besides, Im not killing, Im just casting a magical garbage compactor!
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-08-06, 06:39 PM	Nonlethal Implosion? Har, har. Your DM is going to punch you. :rofl: my goodness, nonlethal implosion. awesome.
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 06:53 PM	Well anyway, are there more ways to get the DC higher?
Zaxter 11-08-06, 07:12 PM	Well anyway, are there more ways to get the DC higher? You seem to have forgotten spell focus.
Marcus Majarra 11-08-06, 07:21 PM	Wizard will scribe a scroll of Implosion into his book since its arcane on the warmage list. 1. Implosion is not on the warmage list. 2. Even if you did get it in the warmage list through things like the 10th-level Rainbow Servant ability, you'd need an epic warmage with Scribe Scroll to actually get an arcane scroll of Implosion. 3. A wizard can only scribe wizard spells into his spellbook (or any spells added to his wizard spell list).
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 08:07 PM	1 = Wrong. I checked the warmage spell list from Complete Arcane and Implosion is staring me in the face ... unless my PDF has a typo which I doubt. 3 is answered from this quote A wizard can also add a spell to her spellbook whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. Wizards add scrolls to their spellbook, wizards prep spells from their spellbook. Since its on the warmage list any 18th level warmage with scribe scroll can make it for me, its arcane in nature, its in my book so there I go! Spell Focus is a small increase, once I find out more concepts to increase the Implosion DC I'll worry about the small increases. EDIT: Implosion will only violate my Vow of Nonviolence if the guy I implode is a humanoid ... thats why wizards have the Polymorph Any Object fan club. So I cant Implode Radjis without causing pain or death? *poof!* you're now a badger which just imploded!
Edea 11-08-06, 08:19 PM	It is on the warmage's spell list. ...but for 3, that would also mean a wizard could scribe cure critical wounds or even revenance from a bard scroll; it's just as arcane as a warmage's scroll. It's definitely Sor/Wiz and Wiz spells only, else we have the mage revolution on our hands (and we don't). Archivists, wizards are not. Well...if the DM let you research it, it's ok. But "DM let you" doesn't seem to sit too well on this particular board.
Rhonin the Big 11-08-06, 08:31 PM	It is on the warmage's spell list. ...but for 3, that would also mean a wizard could scribe cure critical wounds or even revenance from a bard scroll; it's just as arcane as a warmage's scroll. It's definitely Sor/Wiz and Wiz spells only, else we have the mage revolution on our hands (and we don't). Archivists, wizards are not. And cure critical wounds off a bard scroll means what to a class that can cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, shapechange, gate and celerity? In a board thats married to the RAW, absolutely nothing!
ChristopherGroves 11-08-06, 09:49 PM	The point is Warmages can't Extra Spell a wiz/sorc spell and Wizards can't similarly swipe warmage (or bard ... etc.) spells that aren't on the wiz/sorc list by RAW. Of course, there are ways to manage it. MotAO for one, others possibly (don't remember if Recaster is spells up to the level you can cast or one less).
Slyver 11-08-06, 10:44 PM	Nonlethal Implosion? Sounds like really bad flatulence. The point is Warmages can't Extra Spell a wiz/sorc spell and Wizards can't similarly swipe warmage (or bard ... etc.) spells that aren't on the wiz/sorc list by RAW. Gotta quote for this "rule" you are citing? As far as I know, by RAW, a warmage can take scribe scroll as a feat, then write the very much arcane spell implosion. If its arcane, and on an arcane scroll, a wizard can put it in their spellbook. ...but for 3, that would also mean a wizard could scribe cure critical wounds or even revenance from a bard scroll; it's just as arcane as a warmage's scroll. It's definitely Sor/Wiz and Wiz spells only, else we have the mage revolution on our hands (and we don't). Archivists, wizards are not. And what is wrong with this? Clerics can cast fireball, wish, miracle, heal, true res, shapechange, polymorph, MDJ, time stop, etc., etc., etc.. Wizards can cast heal via arcane disciple, rainbow serpent, recaster, (and other classes with a similar function) or plain ole' spell research. Why can't they get it from a bard who wrote the scroll. The lines of what spells are ultimately available for each class have been crossed, and recrossed, over and over. There are no more lines, there are only levels of ease of access. The lines people so often think still exist are an artifact of pre 3.0 DnD. The lines are dead people. Lets allow them to rest in dashes. Slyver
Xylem 11-09-06, 12:46 AM	A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. Interestingly enough, there doesn't seem to be any limitation on what arcane spells a wizard can write into their spellbook. However, in the absence of some additional rule (like with Arcane Disciple) I can't see how they could actually cast a spell not on their spell list.
LightAcolyte 11-09-06, 12:59 AM	Wow...I can't believe this discussion is coming up...again...there has been a huge debate over this at least three times. :rolleyes: The point that has always been reached in the past is that the wizard can add any spell from an arcane scroll into his spellbook because arcane scrolls are "arcane magical writings" as defined in the PHB and a wizard can by class definition cast any spell in his spellbook. Take it or leave it, but that is what the RAW said then...oh and then...oooh...and then, too! Hmm. Yes, and I do believe that it still says that. :D Of course, you can disbelieve all you like, but I've argued against and for and between and up and down and all around this one and in the end the words haven't changed and English doesn't evolve fast enough. Anyway, please don't bog down this thread with this particular discussion, and if I had any number of the debates bookmarked like a good forum poster, I'd post 'em, I swear. :) Maybe someone else will be both kind and intelligent enough to lend illumination.
Xylem 11-09-06, 01:24 AM	Anyway, please don't bog down this thread with this particular discussion, and if I had any number of the debates bookmarked like a good forum poster, I'd post 'em, I swear. :) Maybe someone else will be both kind and intelligent enough to lend illumination. Except this entire thread is moot if the trick doesn't work, and I'm afraid I'm not willing to take your bald statement that it does, since I can see nowhere in the RAW that states "wizard can by class definition cast any spell in his spellbook" -- but rather "She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory" which isn't the same thing at all as I read it. Hopefully these earlier threads cover the matter.
Xylem 11-09-06, 01:44 AM	And on a different part of this discussion, unless it has been changed since The Complere Arcane was published, Nonlethal Substitution only works on spells with descriptors of [acid], [cold], [electricity] or [fire]. Implosion does not appear to have any descriptor at all.
Lafing Cat 11-09-06, 03:10 AM	And on a different part of this discussion, unless it has been changed since The Complere Arcane was published, Nonlethal Substitution only works on spells with descriptors of [acid], [cold], [electricity] or [fire]. Implosion does not appear to have any descriptor at all. Well, he could give it the [Cold] descriptor with Snowcasting. Which also then makes it eligable for a +4 DC increase from the Draconic Aura: Energy [Cold]
Empirate 11-09-06, 05:49 AM	It might be that rules state he can do it, but if his DM really allows him to swipe a non-Wizard spell just because some arcane caster made him a scroll of it, which he copied into his spellbook... then what do we really need different classes for anymore? Classes as a concept seem to be pretty much obsolete anyway. Nowadays it's "what you wanna be able to do?", then frantic looking around in like twenty sourcebooks, and after that you concoct a mixture that can do exactly what you want it to. If there's no way you can make it now, wait for the next three sourcebooks, see what's in there. Character creation has become like cooking: You throw in a lot of different ingredients, and in the end some stew is the result. This can be more or less tasty, but there is no limitation on the number of ways it can be each. Let's face it, once D&D 4.0 comes out in a few years, all classes will be cleared off the table, and finally, FINALLY the insight that a system without classes can work quite well will overwhelm even D&D! That rant aside, I don't see a nonlethal implosion as a problem. After all the dubious things done to this PC and spell, nonlethal doesn't strike me as the biggest issue here. The biggest issue is: How likely is it that a DM in his right mind allows all this? And doesn't counter it by only using incorporeal opponents all the time?
Rhonin the Big 11-09-06, 01:35 PM	Well, he could give it the [Cold] descriptor with Snowcasting. Which also then makes it eligable for a +4 DC increase from the Draconic Aura: Energy [Cold] Good idea, I'll throw some snow into my nonlethal implosion! Now please tell me where I can find Draconid Aura: Energy (cold) from so I can thank you for bringing the DC into the 60s. Wizards prep from their spellbook, wizards can add scrolls to their spellbook, how is this so hard to comprehend? We can comprehend Hulking Hurlers that can throw a planet, we can comprehend a 4th level artificer getting hit with infinite damage, coming out smelling like an omniscient rose and sticking his head into a bucket of water to wipe the slate clean, and dont get me started on the board's best inside joke Pun-pun that we all comprehend. How is a wizard getting what clerics have such a difficult concept to comprehend? That rant aside, I don't see a nonlethal implosion as a problem. After all the dubious things done to this PC and spell, nonlethal doesn't strike me as the biggest issue here. The biggest issue is: How likely is it that a DM in his right mind allows all this? And doesn't counter it by only using incorporeal opponents all the time? Hopefully my DM has a sense of humor. Also, like many of Rhonin's Builds I DONT sig I would never play this. I was bored last night and I just wanna see how high one can get the save DC for my favorite spell. Now can we please stop reopening closed wounds and get to the optimization? Good God, how come everything I post has some bullsh!t rule-debate following it? I don't get no respect, no respect at all.
Edea 11-09-06, 02:24 PM	The Player’s Handbook says a wizard can scribe a spell from a spellbook or scroll into her spellbook. Can she scribe a spell from an arcane scroll that isn’t on the wizard’s spell list? No. A wizard’s spellbook is limited to spells from the wizard class spell list. ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a, download the 3.5 main dnd faq, pg.18.) Honestly, I -love- the idea of putting other arcane spells into a wizard spellbook through scroll use, and found it to be a creative twist. I just got suspicious since I very rarely see that being accounted for in builds/observations involving the wizard. Y'know, I'd rather just assume you -did- find some way of getting it on your spell list, since it has no DF component, it's not that big of a stretch of the imagination to research a wizard version of it...still thinking of ways to up the DC, will respond later.
psly4mne 11-09-06, 03:34 PM	The DC bonus from Vow of Nonviolence does not apply to Implosion. The bonus only applies to spells that do not cause damage (including ability damage), negative levels, or death. Implosion causes death. Vow of Nonviolence does not stack with Spell Focus. It says so right in the feat. Implosion is unaffected by Nonlethal Substitution, since the feat only affects spells that actually cause energy damage. Finally, wizards cannot cast spells from the cleric spell list, even if they can get the spell into their spellbook. Having a spell in your spellbook is necessary, but not sufficient, to cast it. potential Rhonin fanboySomebody has a bit of an ego... Now can we please stop reopening closed wounds and get to the optimization? Good God, how come everything I post has some bullsh!t rule-debate following it?Maybe because everything you post relies of some bull**** rule-twisting? By the way, what you posted in the OP doesn't come close to working. Improved Sigil (krau) only adds +1 level. Nonlethal Substitution has a has a +1 level adjustment, so adding it to a spell with Arcane Thesis will only break even. You cannot apply the same metamagic feat twice to a spell. You seem to be trying to heighten the spell twice and apply Sanctum Spell twice. Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level. The only legitimate bonuses you have are: Improved Sigil (+1) Earth Spell or Sanctum Spell, but not both (+1) Spell Focus (+1) Draconic Aura with Snowcasting(+4) And seriously, what is up with the Implosion gimmick?
|)ar|{ 11-09-06, 04:10 PM	Ahh Snap! Wow psly4mne the only way you could have made that worse what ending with a yo mamma joke. Seriously Rhonin, the reason you get "bull**** rules-debating" is because you get so defensive about your builds. To make matters worse, you don't seem to want to admitt when you are wrong. People like poking the bear. People like knocking cocky posters down a notch. Throwing around curse words is like blood in the water around most boards. That being said there are still plenty of ways to get this build to work. Maybe not as high as you'd like but still pretty respectable. Also, there are a number of PrsC that let you add spells to a spell list, if you have your heart set of implosion. Just my to cents, Dark
Rhonin the Big 11-11-06, 07:27 PM	The DC bonus from Vow of Nonviolence does not apply to Implosion. The bonus only applies to spells that do not cause damage (including ability damage), negative levels, or death. Implosion causes death. Vow of Nonviolence does not stack with Spell Focus. It says so right in the feat. Implosion is unaffected by Nonlethal Substitution, since the feat only affects spells that actually cause energy damage. Finally, wizards cannot cast spells from the cleric spell list, even if they can get the spell into their spellbook. Having a spell in your spellbook is necessary, but not sufficient, to cast it. Vow of Nonviolence, sacred vow and nonlethal sub are going to be removed from this build by sunday. I blame my slow computer and the fact that most of my books are on it. And wizards cast what they prep and prep from their book, if its in their book they can prep it and if its prepped they can cast it. This is what I read from the 3.5 PHB. I do not believe an FAQ is valid rule, FAQ is a collection of CustserV responses and we all know how inaccurate CustserV is. If it was in the errata, a WoTC publication correcting their mistakes I would agree. In the long run, unless its painfully obvious, its upto my DM. Since I will not play the Implodomancer, and since these boards run on the assumption of a universal all-accepting DM, I suggest we run off the assumption that my wizard can cast implosion which I believe he can and help support the Arcane Thesis (implosion) foundation for a more imploded tomorrow.:) This is NOT like my killer metamagic thread with a persistent touch range spell, that was just me not understanding how the feat works and there is RAW to oppose my claim. This seems to be an argument of RAW not opposing my claim vs the inaccurate CustserV opposing my claim. Somebody has a bit of an ego... Somebody is a master of the understatement... Maybe because everything you post relies of some bull**** rule-twisting? Well Im no bugbear. CO is a hobby within a hobby, the arcane thesis (implosion) idea arouse from boredom. Improved Sigil (krau) only adds +1 level. I thought it added +1 level per power sigil. Still worth it though Nonlethal Substitution has a has a +1 level adjustment, so adding it to a spell with Arcane Thesis will only break even. I seem to be going with the BoED Nonlethal Sub which was +0 if I am not mistaken. Its gone for now and I need a +0 metamagic feat in its place. I think the Incantatrix levels bring it down to +0 therefor combined with Arcane Thesis (implosion) would turn a +1 to a -1. Does this work? You cannot apply the same metamagic feat twice to a spell. You seem to be trying to heighten the spell twice and apply Sanctum Spell twice. I am adding Sanctum Spell +Nonlethal Sub to arcane thesis implosion bringing it down to 8th, than using Instant Metamagic of the Incantatrix to heighten it back upto 9th therefor triggering Earth Spell's +2 for a total +4 to the effective spell level. Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level. Heighten Spell is going upto 9th only to trigger Earth Spell, so long as I dont leave my stony sanctum of killer Implodyness! Does Earth Spell & Sanctum Spell really dont stack? And are there more +0 metamagic feats I can stack onto this so I can bring it down to 7th level before heightening it back up again? I will be AFB until sunday evening.
psly4mne 11-11-06, 08:01 PM	And wizards cast what they prep and prep from their book, if its in their book they can prep it and if its prepped they can cast it. This is what I read from the 3.5 PHB.Please show me the passage that says a wizard can automatically prepare any spell in his spellbook. Regardless, to prepare a spell, a wizard must have it in his spellbook and on his class spell list. how is that name pronounced?Only for me to know. Not for your knowledge. I seem to be going with the BoED Nonlethal Sub which was +0 if I am not mistaken. Its gone for now and I need a +0 metamagic feat in its place. I think the Incantatrix levels bring it down to +0 therefor combined with Arcane Thesis (implosion) would turn a +1 to a -1. Does this work?Of course, lowered metamagic costs from incantatrix don't go below +1. Understandably, it will go down to +0 from arcane thesis. I am adding Sanctum Spell +Nonlethal Sub to arcane thesis implosion bringing it down to 8th, than using Instant Metamagic of the Incantatrix to heighten it back upto 9th therefor triggering Earth Spell's +2 for a total +4 to the effective spell level.Normally, Sanctum Spell is a +0 metamagic and nonlethal substitution is +1. Casting in your sanctum, after applying Sanctum + Nonlethal, you have a 10th level spell in an 8th level slot. Ergo, you can't heighten the spell further, as heighten is capped at 9th. Doing this outside your sanctum, you get a 10th level spell in a 9th level slot (after Sanctum, Nonlethal, Heighten, and Earth Spell). So either way, you are not getting more than +1. Heighten Spell is going upto 9th only to trigger Earth Spell, so long as I dont leave my stony sanctum of killer Implodyness! Does Earth Spell & Sanctum Spell really dont stack? And are there more +0 metamagic feats I can stack onto this so I can bring it down to 7th level before heightening it back up again? I will be AFB until sunday evening.Logically, Earth and Sanctum Spell do stack, but you can't heighten a 9th level spell, so you can't apply Earth Spell unless you apply Sanctum Spell outside your sanctum to bring the spell level below 9th. I think you are confusing spell level and slot level. My understanding is that if you have a 10th level spell in an 8th level spell slot, you can't heighten it, because Heighten is capped by spell level, not slot level.
JaronK 11-11-06, 08:28 PM	Back to the OP's topic, you're really going to want Shadowcraft Mage in there. Silent Image heightened to 9th level with heighten spell, then boosted to 10th level with a +9 to CL with Earth Spell, simulating Implosion, will get you a lot of extra Caster Level... and it's got 120% reality, so you don't have to worry about the target passing the extra will save. Anyway, that +9 Caster Level boost can't be ignored, plus it really boosts your flexibility. JaronK
LightAcolyte 11-11-06, 11:05 PM	The Player’s Handbook says a wizard can scribe a spell from a spellbook or scroll into her spellbook. Can she scribe a spell from an arcane scroll that isn’t on the wizard’s spell list? No. A wizard’s spellbook is limited to spells from the wizard class spell list. Excellent find, Edea! *evil laugh*...now I can have the satisfaction of knowing I was right about the rules as they were intended at the outset (unfortunately I'm not sure it outweighs the dissatisfaction of knowing I eventually conceded to the opposition). I hope someone updates those threads...because I sure can't remember what they were anymore. :(