Arcane Thesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Thesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PKemisti
05-14-06, 01:36 AM So, searching on Google didn't reveal any talk about this feat.
+2 to CL and -1 total metamagic cost seems useful to many spells but I fear that too many spells have some sort of CL cap that limits the usefulness of this feat, damage spells especially.
I suppose you could pick this for a spell like Fireball on lower levels and then use Character Rebuilding rules to swap it later but for what?

So, my question is: What are the best spells to apply this feat for throught the levels?

Also, since you basically +1 Metamagic level for free, there really isn't reason to apply some +1 Spell Level metamagic into the spell you memorize.
Piercing Cold, Extend Spell and Rapid Spell seem useful. Any other?
gkp79
05-14-06, 01:41 AM Pretty much any damage spell that you cast repeatedly in combat and that you can apply Empower/Maximize to will work great with this feat. Especially if you team it up with Incantatrix to give Empower for +0 and Maximize for only +1. Looks pretty sexy to me.
Saxis
05-14-06, 02:13 AM I'll be taking it with my Shadowcraft Illusionist, which relies on Heightened Silent images to duplicate all my Evoc and Conjur (create/summon) spells. It sucks that it doesn't work with Heighten Spell, but it will help with the casting of Quickened/Extended/Persistent versions. Especially the Persistent Summoning ones!! Only need a 12th level slot to have a Persistent Elemental Monolith that's 130% real (for my ECL 30 caster)!
tseb
05-14-06, 05:40 AM So, searching on Google didn't reveal any talk about this feat.
+2 to CL and -1 total metamagic cost
I read it as -1 metamagic cost per metamagic feat applied, myself. To quote the offending sentence:
"When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal."
I interpret the rule to be reentrant--every time you apply a metamagic feat (other than Heighten Spell), the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. So, if you maximize and empower a fireball, it'd be +1 for empower and +2 for maximize.

Basically, I'm saying that the wording is a lot closer the PGtF Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic (but for one spell) than to the DMG 3.5's Improved Metamagic (but for one spell). Why? Because the PGtF Incantatrix version of Improved Metamagic talks about what happens per feat, as does the Arcane Thesis feat. The DMG version of Improved Metamagic talks about what happens to the metamagic spell, which is not what the Arcane Thesis feat emphasizes.

Granted, I see both sides to the argument. I can see how your interpretation makes sense, too--you're assuming that they meant the first half of the sentence to mean any number of metamagic feats, not just precisely one. I suspect that WotC envisioned Incantatrix Improved Metamagic (but for one spell) for this feat, right or wrong. It's not like divine casters can't abuse metamagic with Divine Metamagic already.

Of course, I can prove that the feat is in desperate need of errata. No matter which of us is right about the interpretation of that sentence, a cold-substituted fireball takes up a level 2 slot as the feat is written.

That's just stupid.

Anyways, is there any kind of official adjudication about Arcane Thesis, or is it too early for that?
Avanter
05-14-06, 08:03 AM Well, I think we can add that it can't reduce a spell to a level lower than it's own.. it would be crazy to start casting a 1st level energy sub, non lethal fireball..
PKemisti
05-14-06, 09:23 AM I read it as -1 metamagic cost per metamagic feat applied, myself. To quote the offending sentence:
I can understand what you are thinking, but Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic and Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Secrets (which is pretty much the same) are both 10th level abilities.
This is just a feat, and not only does it cheapen metamagic, it also adds Caster Levels. That's why I think the intent was that it is -1 to total Spell Level.

Pretty much any damage spell that you cast repeatedly in combat and that you can apply Empower/Maximize to will work great with this feat.
Well, I'm in progress of making 12th level Frost Mage, which would mean that most of the spells I can apply this to soon lose the +2 CL bonus.
I suppose the -1 effective Spell Level is still nice bonus but I'm not sure if it's worth a feat.
Todd
05-14-06, 09:32 AM The difference is that Arcane Thesis is just one spell. There are feats and PrC things for making metamagic cheaper overall but AT has a more narrow focus. It's less about metamagic in general than it is about being the master of one spell & all the ways of tweaking it.

Other casters can find better uses I'm sure but one I was considering was for Warmages. Arcane Thesis on Orb of Fire with feats like Elemental Admixture (fire), Searing Spell, Maximize Spell, etc. Sure it's caped at 15d6, but with the feats that's 180 points of no save, no SR, no FR damage.
Eidolon Faer
05-14-06, 09:51 AM Hmm.

Just goes to show that using the word "Level" in fifteen different contexts STILL confuses everyone.

Also, there are Metamagic Feats that do not increase the level of the spell slot required to prepare the spell. Using level 2 spell slots to prepare (for instance) Sanctum Fireballs appears legal.
Caelic
05-14-06, 10:26 AM The problem is that "just one spell" can do a whole lot of damage. There are extremely versatile spells, like the various Shadow spells or Anyspell; there are viciously effective spells like Shivering Touch.
Sang-Drax
05-14-06, 11:07 AM I also think that Shadow Spells are your best bet. Polar Ray, however, caps at 25d6 IIRC. True enough, it's an 8th level slot... but you could apply Piercing Cold for free and Split Ray for up to 50d6 damage for a 9th-level spell.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
05-14-06, 11:15 AM I actually sent CustServ an Email with this exact dilemma. Hopefully I'll get a reply in the not too distant future.

I hope that it applies to every metamagic feat applied to the spell, but if it doesn't it would also make sense.

The first thing that popped into my mind for Arcane Thesis was MAGIC MISSLE! This would go great with a Force Missle Mage!
gkp79
05-14-06, 11:45 AM No matter which of us is right about the interpretation of that sentence, a cold-substituted fireball takes up a level 2 slot as the feat is written.

That's just stupid.

You're right, that is stupid. No sane DM would rule that this feat can lower a spell to below its normal level. Im sure it will be eratta'd at some point.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PKemisti 05-14-06, 01:36 AM	So, searching on Google didn't reveal any talk about this feat. +2 to CL and -1 total metamagic cost seems useful to many spells but I fear that too many spells have some sort of CL cap that limits the usefulness of this feat, damage spells especially. I suppose you could pick this for a spell like Fireball on lower levels and then use Character Rebuilding rules to swap it later but for what? So, my question is: What are the best spells to apply this feat for throught the levels? Also, since you basically +1 Metamagic level for free, there really isn't reason to apply some +1 Spell Level metamagic into the spell you memorize. Piercing Cold, Extend Spell and Rapid Spell seem useful. Any other?
gkp79 05-14-06, 01:41 AM	Pretty much any damage spell that you cast repeatedly in combat and that you can apply Empower/Maximize to will work great with this feat. Especially if you team it up with Incantatrix to give Empower for +0 and Maximize for only +1. Looks pretty sexy to me.
Saxis 05-14-06, 02:13 AM	I'll be taking it with my Shadowcraft Illusionist, which relies on Heightened Silent images to duplicate all my Evoc and Conjur (create/summon) spells. It sucks that it doesn't work with Heighten Spell, but it will help with the casting of Quickened/Extended/Persistent versions. Especially the Persistent Summoning ones!! Only need a 12th level slot to have a Persistent Elemental Monolith that's 130% real (for my ECL 30 caster)!
tseb 05-14-06, 05:40 AM	So, searching on Google didn't reveal any talk about this feat. +2 to CL and -1 total metamagic cost I read it as -1 metamagic cost per metamagic feat applied, myself. To quote the offending sentence: "When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal." I interpret the rule to be reentrant--every time you apply a metamagic feat (other than Heighten Spell), the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal. So, if you maximize and empower a fireball, it'd be +1 for empower and +2 for maximize. Basically, I'm saying that the wording is a lot closer the PGtF Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic (but for one spell) than to the DMG 3.5's Improved Metamagic (but for one spell). Why? Because the PGtF Incantatrix version of Improved Metamagic talks about what happens per feat, as does the Arcane Thesis feat. The DMG version of Improved Metamagic talks about what happens to the metamagic spell, which is not what the Arcane Thesis feat emphasizes. Granted, I see both sides to the argument. I can see how your interpretation makes sense, too--you're assuming that they meant the first half of the sentence to mean any number of metamagic feats, not just precisely one. I suspect that WotC envisioned Incantatrix Improved Metamagic (but for one spell) for this feat, right or wrong. It's not like divine casters can't abuse metamagic with Divine Metamagic already. Of course, I can prove that the feat is in desperate need of errata. No matter which of us is right about the interpretation of that sentence, a cold-substituted fireball takes up a level 2 slot as the feat is written. That's just stupid. Anyways, is there any kind of official adjudication about Arcane Thesis, or is it too early for that?
Avanter 05-14-06, 08:03 AM	Well, I think we can add that it can't reduce a spell to a level lower than it's own.. it would be crazy to start casting a 1st level energy sub, non lethal fireball..
PKemisti 05-14-06, 09:23 AM	I read it as -1 metamagic cost per metamagic feat applied, myself. To quote the offending sentence: I can understand what you are thinking, but Incantatrix's Improved Metamagic and Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Secrets (which is pretty much the same) are both 10th level abilities. This is just a feat, and not only does it cheapen metamagic, it also adds Caster Levels. That's why I think the intent was that it is -1 to total Spell Level. Pretty much any damage spell that you cast repeatedly in combat and that you can apply Empower/Maximize to will work great with this feat. Well, I'm in progress of making 12th level Frost Mage, which would mean that most of the spells I can apply this to soon lose the +2 CL bonus. I suppose the -1 effective Spell Level is still nice bonus but I'm not sure if it's worth a feat.
Todd 05-14-06, 09:32 AM	The difference is that Arcane Thesis is just one spell. There are feats and PrC things for making metamagic cheaper overall but AT has a more narrow focus. It's less about metamagic in general than it is about being the master of one spell & all the ways of tweaking it. Other casters can find better uses I'm sure but one I was considering was for Warmages. Arcane Thesis on Orb of Fire with feats like Elemental Admixture (fire), Searing Spell, Maximize Spell, etc. Sure it's caped at 15d6, but with the feats that's 180 points of no save, no SR, no FR damage.
Eidolon Faer 05-14-06, 09:51 AM	Hmm. Just goes to show that using the word "Level" in fifteen different contexts STILL confuses everyone. Also, there are Metamagic Feats that do not increase the level of the spell slot required to prepare the spell. Using level 2 spell slots to prepare (for instance) Sanctum Fireballs appears legal.
Caelic 05-14-06, 10:26 AM	The problem is that "just one spell" can do a whole lot of damage. There are extremely versatile spells, like the various Shadow spells or Anyspell; there are viciously effective spells like Shivering Touch.
Sang-Drax 05-14-06, 11:07 AM	I also think that Shadow Spells are your best bet. Polar Ray, however, caps at 25d6 IIRC. True enough, it's an 8th level slot... but you could apply Piercing Cold for free and Split Ray for up to 50d6 damage for a 9th-level spell.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 05-14-06, 11:15 AM	I actually sent CustServ an Email with this exact dilemma. Hopefully I'll get a reply in the not too distant future. I hope that it applies to every metamagic feat applied to the spell, but if it doesn't it would also make sense. The first thing that popped into my mind for Arcane Thesis was MAGIC MISSLE! This would go great with a Force Missle Mage!
gkp79 05-14-06, 11:45 AM	No matter which of us is right about the interpretation of that sentence, a cold-substituted fireball takes up a level 2 slot as the feat is written. That's just stupid. You're right, that is stupid. No sane DM would rule that this feat can lower a spell to below its normal level. Im sure it will be eratta'd at some point.