Arcane Thesis: What Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Thesis: What Spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fnord
10-03-06, 03:12 AM Ok, for anyone not familiar with Arcane Thesis, it's a feat from PHBII that lets you pick one spell, gives you a +2 cl bonus with it, and (here's the important part) makes all metamagic cost one less to cast on that spell. This can even, if I read it correctly, make the MM cost -1 for things like Energy Substitution.

Now, I was planning on making an Uttercold Assault Necromancer, and this struck me as a good choice, because I'm going to be applying 2 metamagic feats all the time.

So, what would be a good spell to choose for it. The spell MUST do elemental damage. Ideally, it would do lots of elemental damage over a large area and/or repeat the damage for a duration. Because the spell will heal me and my minions, friendly fire is more of a bonus than a problem.

My initial thoughts were on Acid Fog (for duration and battlefield control), Orb of Fire (for single target blasting), or Acid Storm (for area blasting.

Any one have any better ideas, or preferences between the three?
PhoenixInferno
10-03-06, 03:23 AM I guess it might depend on how many minions you plan on bringing into play. If you're looking for the "sea of skeletons & zombies" feel, then Acid Fog is indeed a marvelous choice. Or, if there's a spell that does something like Acid Fog, but has a smaller area of effect, you could use Widen on it. My issue with Acid Fog is that its a pretty high level spell and will take quite a while for you to get it into play, if you're starting from lower levels.
fnord
10-03-06, 03:47 AM My issue with Acid Fog is that its a pretty high level spell and will take quite a while for you to get it into play, if you're starting from lower levels.
If you know of a lower level one, I'd love to use it. There's the Freezing Mist or something like that from Frostburn, but that doesn't do much damage.

In any case, I don't need to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis until I need it. We will be starting from low levels, but we should be going long enough for me to get plenty of use out of Acid Fog.
demonsinmyhead
10-03-06, 04:01 AM Polar Ray. Admixture and Chain it...
Chaotix42
10-03-06, 09:26 AM I don't have a link to the CustServ response handy, but metamagic feats cannot have their level modifier reduced past +0 with Arcane Thesis. So you can't lower the actual level of spells with things like Energy Substitution you cheeky bastard! ;)
ChristopherGroves
10-03-06, 09:30 AM I don't have a link to the CustServ response handy, but metamagic feats cannot have their level modifier reduced past +0 with Arcane Thesis. So you can't lower the actual level of spells with things like Energy Substitution you cheeky bastard! ;)
Half the board has read that and plays that way, the other half has decided this is one of those times to simply ignore customer service's ruling as they feel it is wrong.

Any idea what way it will lean in your game fnord?
ThePrivateer
10-03-06, 10:31 AM Wall of Fire Energy Substituted for Cold creates a big wall that damages your enemies and heals skeletons in a radius outward. I believe that was reccomended in the Necromancer Handbook posted here a while back.
gellor
10-03-06, 11:02 AM I think you are refering to the Uttercold feat, that cold actually doesn't heal, I believe its the negative energy.
chifari
10-03-06, 11:31 AM I go by what the author intended.

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-162470.html
Chaotix42
10-03-06, 03:08 PM His post is one of the last ones, for anyone interested.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-03-06, 03:33 PM It's an old issue, let's stop debating it ok?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-03-06, 04:50 PM As an aside, you don't have to limit yourself to spells that are elemental in nature, nor do you have to worry about Lord of the Uttercold and whatnot. You can do much better.

Consider Elven Spell Lore. This can change the energy type of one spell, so you could turn the fire, acid, whatever damage into pure negative energy.

Secondly, you don't even have to limit yourself to Arcane Spells. Remember, 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard will grant you access to ANY spell.

You could easily alter my Holy Super Healing! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10173837&postcount=77) build and make it use Harm instead. Every turn you cast Repeated Reach Chained Harm Spells. You cast harm and 21 people get hit by the harm spell, and it happens all over again the next turn. You could easily be a Necropolitan or take Tomb-Tainted Soul.

It'd be very effective for healing your undead and not to mention destroy your non-undead enemies :D

Consider Pulse of Hate from PHB2. A neat little Persistifiable Spell that's an aura. Add in Black lore of Moil for an extra 4d6 negative energy damage. Empower and Maximize that sucker, and you've got a fairly nice Undead Healing amount every turn. You can also add in Widen Spell for increased effectiveness.
fnord
10-03-06, 06:22 PM The metamagics can go to -1, but the actual level of the spell cannot be lowered
So, no Acid Fog as a 4th level spell, but Energy Substitution, Lord of Uttercold, and Black Lore of Moil all make other metamagic cheaper.

To: ThePrivateer: I'd take Acid Fog over Wall of Fire for Arcane Thesis, because Acid Fog has all the fun Solid Fog effects, to hold my enemies in place while they get damaged (and beat on). I'll still use Wall of Fire, but it isn't powerful or flexible enough to justify the feat.

To Bill Bisco: My DM nixed the Sanctum Spell Abuse. He didn't forbid it per se, but rather mentioned that if it was used in a campaign, the next BBEG would be a kobold MOMF. Anyway, if I wanted to do insane things with wands, I'd be an Artificer.
Pulse of Hate is a nice find, but not Peristable without some trick. Also, it's not eligible for Energy Substitution or Lord of Uttercold, so I don't think it's a good choice for Arcane Thesis.
Elven Spell Lore only works for one spell. Lord Of Uttercold works for all spells.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-03-06, 06:41 PM You're asking Arcane Thesis, what spell? Yes, elven spell lore only works for one spell, yet arcane thesis only works for one spell too.

My Build in Super Holy Healing only Has Sanctum spell, and Dual-Wand Wielder to achieve wand craziness. You don't need wands whatsoever to make that build work. Take another look at it. :monk:

Similarly, unless your DM is going to send one of the Campaign Smashers against you, I wouldn't worry in the Slightest. A Kobold Master of Many Forms is nothing compared to ( as far as damage) what my build is capable of.

And to reiterate your statement about Lord of the Uttercold. Yes, it works with all spells, and yes you can still acquire it. But there are still better tactics (not that Lord of the Uttercold is a bad one, indeed it's very cool :D ).
ChristopherGroves
10-03-06, 07:15 PM I'm pretty sure the Kobold MoMF was a reference to Pun Pun.

not that Lord of the Uttercold is a bad one, indeed it's very cool

I can not begin to say how horrible of a pun that was. Utterly horrible.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-03-06, 07:22 PM I actually didn't notice that it could be taken as a pun til you mentioned it :tie:

I'm pretty sure the Kobold MoMF was a reference to Pun Pun.

Well, if that's the case, then yes, perhaps Sanctum Spell isn't for you :D
fnord
10-03-06, 07:40 PM Similarly, unless your DM is going to send one of the Campaign Smashers against you, I wouldn't worry in the Slightest.

He was definitely implying Pun-Pun. He doesn't ban things, he just kills people who use them. Sanctum Spell abuse is definitely not an option. Before anyone jumps on him as arbitrary, he makes it clear up front, and only does it things that he would be justified to ban.

I could make a varient of the Healer that doesn't use wands or Sanctum Spell, but I still don't think that's the best choice. I have no Assault Necromancer ability before level 12, and none with spells below level 5 after it. Furthermore, thanks to the free metamagic provided by Energy Substitution and Lord of Uttercold, I don't know that I actually get more damage.

You're asking Arcane Thesis, what spell? Yes, elven spell lore only works for one spell, yet arcane thesis only works for one spell too.

I'll be using Lord of Uttercold on more than just the Arcane Thesis'd spell. Even if I take Arcane Thesis: Acid Fog, I'll still be using Uttercold Wall of Fire, Acid Storm, etc. if the situation calls for it. Elven Spell Lore doesn't provide enough flexibility to replace Lord of Uttercold in an assault necromancer build. Therefore, I will take Lord of Uttercold.
Arcane Thesis gives a greater benefit to the particular spell than Elven Spell Lore, since I will have Lord of Uttercold. I have come the conclusion that the benefit Arcane Thesis provides is worth a feat, while the one Elven Spell Lore provides is not.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
10-03-06, 08:26 PM Race: Human or one with a bonus feat

Class: Wizard 5/Incantarix 4
Feat Progression
1: Chain Spell, Iron Will
3: Energy Sub. Cold,
5: Craft Wand
6: Easy Metamagic: Chain Spell, Lord of The Uttercold
9: Arcane Thesis: Orb of Acid/Fire/Cold/Whatever, *Metamagic Feat*

At level 9 you can be pretty decent. Level 11 caster level base for Orb of Whatever, plus whatever other stuff you'd be able to tackle on.

Spend 1 extra charge on your wand to make a chained orb of Whatever.

You can go further with more Incantarix Levels, and do awesome things. And, you can still use Lord of the Uttercold for your other spells.

I believe you should probably take a look at some of the Orb of Fire Builds and adjust them to include Energy Sub. Cold and Lord of the Uttercold. That's your best bet really. Builds that include wands will net more damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fnord 10-03-06, 03:12 AM	Ok, for anyone not familiar with Arcane Thesis, it's a feat from PHBII that lets you pick one spell, gives you a +2 cl bonus with it, and (here's the important part) makes all metamagic cost one less to cast on that spell. This can even, if I read it correctly, make the MM cost -1 for things like Energy Substitution. Now, I was planning on making an Uttercold Assault Necromancer, and this struck me as a good choice, because I'm going to be applying 2 metamagic feats all the time. So, what would be a good spell to choose for it. The spell MUST do elemental damage. Ideally, it would do lots of elemental damage over a large area and/or repeat the damage for a duration. Because the spell will heal me and my minions, friendly fire is more of a bonus than a problem. My initial thoughts were on Acid Fog (for duration and battlefield control), Orb of Fire (for single target blasting), or Acid Storm (for area blasting. Any one have any better ideas, or preferences between the three?
PhoenixInferno 10-03-06, 03:23 AM	I guess it might depend on how many minions you plan on bringing into play. If you're looking for the "sea of skeletons & zombies" feel, then Acid Fog is indeed a marvelous choice. Or, if there's a spell that does something like Acid Fog, but has a smaller area of effect, you could use Widen on it. My issue with Acid Fog is that its a pretty high level spell and will take quite a while for you to get it into play, if you're starting from lower levels.
fnord 10-03-06, 03:47 AM	My issue with Acid Fog is that its a pretty high level spell and will take quite a while for you to get it into play, if you're starting from lower levels. If you know of a lower level one, I'd love to use it. There's the Freezing Mist or something like that from Frostburn, but that doesn't do much damage. In any case, I don't need to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis until I need it. We will be starting from low levels, but we should be going long enough for me to get plenty of use out of Acid Fog.
demonsinmyhead 10-03-06, 04:01 AM	Polar Ray. Admixture and Chain it...
Chaotix42 10-03-06, 09:26 AM	I don't have a link to the CustServ response handy, but metamagic feats cannot have their level modifier reduced past +0 with Arcane Thesis. So you can't lower the actual level of spells with things like Energy Substitution you cheeky bastard! ;)
ChristopherGroves 10-03-06, 09:30 AM	I don't have a link to the CustServ response handy, but metamagic feats cannot have their level modifier reduced past +0 with Arcane Thesis. So you can't lower the actual level of spells with things like Energy Substitution you cheeky bastard! ;) Half the board has read that and plays that way, the other half has decided this is one of those times to simply ignore customer service's ruling as they feel it is wrong. Any idea what way it will lean in your game fnord?
ThePrivateer 10-03-06, 10:31 AM	Wall of Fire Energy Substituted for Cold creates a big wall that damages your enemies and heals skeletons in a radius outward. I believe that was reccomended in the Necromancer Handbook posted here a while back.
gellor 10-03-06, 11:02 AM	I think you are refering to the Uttercold feat, that cold actually doesn't heal, I believe its the negative energy.
chifari 10-03-06, 11:31 AM	I go by what the author intended. http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-162470.html
Chaotix42 10-03-06, 03:08 PM	His post is one of the last ones, for anyone interested.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-03-06, 03:33 PM	It's an old issue, let's stop debating it ok?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-03-06, 04:50 PM	As an aside, you don't have to limit yourself to spells that are elemental in nature, nor do you have to worry about Lord of the Uttercold and whatnot. You can do much better. Consider Elven Spell Lore. This can change the energy type of one spell, so you could turn the fire, acid, whatever damage into pure negative energy. Secondly, you don't even have to limit yourself to Arcane Spells. Remember, 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard will grant you access to ANY spell. You could easily alter my Holy Super Healing! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10173837&postcount=77) build and make it use Harm instead. Every turn you cast Repeated Reach Chained Harm Spells. You cast harm and 21 people get hit by the harm spell, and it happens all over again the next turn. You could easily be a Necropolitan or take Tomb-Tainted Soul. It'd be very effective for healing your undead and not to mention destroy your non-undead enemies :D Consider Pulse of Hate from PHB2. A neat little Persistifiable Spell that's an aura. Add in Black lore of Moil for an extra 4d6 negative energy damage. Empower and Maximize that sucker, and you've got a fairly nice Undead Healing amount every turn. You can also add in Widen Spell for increased effectiveness.
fnord 10-03-06, 06:22 PM	The metamagics can go to -1, but the actual level of the spell cannot be lowered So, no Acid Fog as a 4th level spell, but Energy Substitution, Lord of Uttercold, and Black Lore of Moil all make other metamagic cheaper. To: ThePrivateer: I'd take Acid Fog over Wall of Fire for Arcane Thesis, because Acid Fog has all the fun Solid Fog effects, to hold my enemies in place while they get damaged (and beat on). I'll still use Wall of Fire, but it isn't powerful or flexible enough to justify the feat. To Bill Bisco: My DM nixed the Sanctum Spell Abuse. He didn't forbid it per se, but rather mentioned that if it was used in a campaign, the next BBEG would be a kobold MOMF. Anyway, if I wanted to do insane things with wands, I'd be an Artificer. Pulse of Hate is a nice find, but not Peristable without some trick. Also, it's not eligible for Energy Substitution or Lord of Uttercold, so I don't think it's a good choice for Arcane Thesis. Elven Spell Lore only works for one spell. Lord Of Uttercold works for all spells.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-03-06, 06:41 PM	You're asking Arcane Thesis, what spell? Yes, elven spell lore only works for one spell, yet arcane thesis only works for one spell too. My Build in Super Holy Healing only Has Sanctum spell, and Dual-Wand Wielder to achieve wand craziness. You don't need wands whatsoever to make that build work. Take another look at it. :monk: Similarly, unless your DM is going to send one of the Campaign Smashers against you, I wouldn't worry in the Slightest. A Kobold Master of Many Forms is nothing compared to ( as far as damage) what my build is capable of. And to reiterate your statement about Lord of the Uttercold. Yes, it works with all spells, and yes you can still acquire it. But there are still better tactics (not that Lord of the Uttercold is a bad one, indeed it's very cool :D ).
ChristopherGroves 10-03-06, 07:15 PM	I'm pretty sure the Kobold MoMF was a reference to Pun Pun. not that Lord of the Uttercold is a bad one, indeed it's very cool I can not begin to say how horrible of a pun that was. Utterly horrible.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-03-06, 07:22 PM	I actually didn't notice that it could be taken as a pun til you mentioned it :tie: I'm pretty sure the Kobold MoMF was a reference to Pun Pun. Well, if that's the case, then yes, perhaps Sanctum Spell isn't for you :D
fnord 10-03-06, 07:40 PM	Similarly, unless your DM is going to send one of the Campaign Smashers against you, I wouldn't worry in the Slightest. He was definitely implying Pun-Pun. He doesn't ban things, he just kills people who use them. Sanctum Spell abuse is definitely not an option. Before anyone jumps on him as arbitrary, he makes it clear up front, and only does it things that he would be justified to ban. I could make a varient of the Healer that doesn't use wands or Sanctum Spell, but I still don't think that's the best choice. I have no Assault Necromancer ability before level 12, and none with spells below level 5 after it. Furthermore, thanks to the free metamagic provided by Energy Substitution and Lord of Uttercold, I don't know that I actually get more damage. You're asking Arcane Thesis, what spell? Yes, elven spell lore only works for one spell, yet arcane thesis only works for one spell too. I'll be using Lord of Uttercold on more than just the Arcane Thesis'd spell. Even if I take Arcane Thesis: Acid Fog, I'll still be using Uttercold Wall of Fire, Acid Storm, etc. if the situation calls for it. Elven Spell Lore doesn't provide enough flexibility to replace Lord of Uttercold in an assault necromancer build. Therefore, I will take Lord of Uttercold. Arcane Thesis gives a greater benefit to the particular spell than Elven Spell Lore, since I will have Lord of Uttercold. I have come the conclusion that the benefit Arcane Thesis provides is worth a feat, while the one Elven Spell Lore provides is not.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-03-06, 08:26 PM	Race: Human or one with a bonus feat Class: Wizard 5/Incantarix 4 Feat Progression 1: Chain Spell, Iron Will 3: Energy Sub. Cold, 5: Craft Wand 6: Easy Metamagic: Chain Spell, Lord of The Uttercold 9: Arcane Thesis: Orb of Acid/Fire/Cold/Whatever, Metamagic Feat At level 9 you can be pretty decent. Level 11 caster level base for Orb of Whatever, plus whatever other stuff you'd be able to tackle on. Spend 1 extra charge on your wand to make a chained orb of Whatever. You can go further with more Incantarix Levels, and do awesome things. And, you can still use Lord of the Uttercold for your other spells. I believe you should probably take a look at some of the Orb of Fire Builds and adjust them to include Energy Sub. Cold and Lord of the Uttercold. That's your best bet really. Builds that include wands will net more damage.