Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snow Savant 12-17-03, 01:52 AM	As you all know, the AT (revised and added to the 3.5 DMG) is one of the most popular, versatile, & powerful PrC's in the official WoTC D&D PrC repertoire. There is a ton of great threads on the AT in our glorious C.O. Forum archives. And more or less, the popular consensus on the standard prefix for an AT build is Rog3/Wiz5/ATX. Yes, there are variations that include Guild Thief or go the AT route via Bard or Sorc (in lieu of Wiz). But the Rog3/Wiz5 prefix seems straddle the line of being the most survivable, yet power-build capable. Rogue Evasion is critical for survival in the early levels. And Wizard levels trump Sorc and Bard due to getting the best spells early on and with the diversity needed to succeed. *** And so the debate continues ... Wizard Specialization, yes or no? I've seen countless responses to this. And yet I remain convinced that every single arcane school holds spells of various levels worthy of *neccessary* inclusion in an AT build. AT's, while not technically blaster mages, are indeed damage-dealing mages. They get that nifty SA bonus dice, so by neccessity, they need spells that "attack" to cause damage. Arcane schools such as Evocation & Conjuration are important here. Yet, skill and aptitude wise, the AT is all about stealth, subversion, infiltration, & subtlety. Arcane schools such as Illusion & Enchantment are import here. Since the AT is flimsy and vulnerable, he needs protection & bolstering. Abjuration (with the absolutely neccessary Dispel Magic) and Transmutation are very important here. This leaves Divination and Necromancy. The former you cannot make a forbidden specialist school. The latter ... well, you can survive without it. That's only one school. And that puts the kibosh on being a Wiz specialist without taking a hit somewhere. And you *really* want those extra specialization spells. And as you can see, spell diversity is hugely important to an AT. So perhaps an answer is, after taking Rog3/Wiz4 .... one level of Mage of the Arcane Order with *no* Wizard specialization? The effective cost of this dip is really just the Cooperative Spell feat (sadly, a wasted feat) as you most likely will have already taken one meta-magic feat prior in the prefix. And after taking all your desired levels of AT, you can always continue on with MotAO level 2 to recoup your wasted feat. From a BAB perspective, you do not lose out, as this dip would still give you the same BAB as if you had a Rog3/Wiz4 baseline. The MotAO route also eases access into an AT build for races such as Gnomes & Dwarves, due to the elimination of the XP penalties. Most successful AT builds I see use their cantrips, 1st, & 2nd level spells as their Sneak Attack "vehicle" spells (i.e. the various Orb spells, Scorching Ray, MAA, etc.). The vast majority of the higher level spells are not used for offense, but instead, utility, stealth, defense, etc. Having access to the Spell Pool for spell levels 1-3 would really enhance your utility and diversity in spellcasting options. Or in the case of an AT, your offensive repertoire. Since your stealth capabilities are already high, the full-round access to take spells out of the Spell Pool is best performed by a hidden & silent AT. By observing the enemy (say, in a point-man role) under cover of stealth, you could custom-chose the offensive spell of your choice from the Spell Pool that would cause the most damage to your target. With little chance of being caught since Spell Pool access in and of itself is not noisy or showy. In this regard, you most likely will not miss your bonus specialization spells, as you will be chosing *smarter* spells for tailored purposes. With no specialization, you can now prepare more obscure spells from schools that would be likely candidates for being "forbidden" and opposite your specialized school. A good case can be made for spells like Charm Monster (preferably prepped with Silent Spell) and Magic Jar. Both from schools typically denied specialized AT Wizards, but have immense value to the stealthy AT modus operandi. So, we have: Rog3 / Wiz4 / MotAO1 / AT10 / XX2 Again, a 2nd level of MotAO nets you another metamagic feat and a +1 BAB, and is well-advised as a decent option at the tail-end of this build. *** So .... I'm looking for feedback from all of you on how effective the MotAO level dip would be for an AT. I typically do not care for the MotAO PrC for even Sorc's (smart spell selection makes sense here). But I find the AT needs so many different spells at so many different times, especially since he is playing 2 roles in the party - that of Mage and that of Rogue. And Wizard specialization just really puts a crimp on wearing these 2 distinct hats. XO, Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 12-17-03, 03:15 AM	Schools an Arcane Trickster can't do without: 1. Abjuration: dismiss magic and send away outsiders. Strong defense. 2. Conjuration: summon defenders and teleport. 3. Divination: knowledge is power. 4. Enchantment: my suggestion is that you sleep on this one. 5. Illusion: I mislead them with my glamar double. 6. Transmutation: Knock. Passwall. Polymorph (a rodent can get through many baracades and never be suspected). The only schools I can see given up are Evocation and Necromancy. But Necromancy has Fatigue and Exhaustion spells. Evocation on the other hand isn't all that necessary. Any time you are in a position that you have to drop a fireball you should instead teleport away. However, I prefer the Sorcerer or Bard for an Arcane Trickster because it is spontaneous. If you don't know what is coming it is better to be able to change your plans. Do I need an extra knock spell? Do I need Overland flight just once to escape? Or will I be able to use it to bypass pressure traps? Will there even be pressure traps?
Funny Slaughter 12-17-03, 03:52 AM	i think MotAO is a nice idea for a trickster, i just cant imagine the picture of your little burglar joining the ranks of the guild. but if you qualify using guild-thief anyhow this is less of an issue. i think giving up evocation was a no-brainer for a trickster in 3.0, in 3.5 it still is, just specialize in divination. you get a useful spell every level that you may prepare anyhow and it does not matter if your important transmutations or whatever are in your bonus-slot or in a normal one. of course there is nothing that stops you to use both things at once. what i dont like is the fact that you have to leave the slots open to gain spellpool spells, and up to half your casterlevel is not very much, especially not for a trickster. concluding i would say that the roleplaying restrictions and the feat you have to pay are not worth it. specialize in divination, ban all the fireballs and thats it. gs Funny
Stoned Golem 12-17-03, 04:17 AM	I can definitely see giving up evocation. Who needs ray of frost now that there's acid splash? I can see the versatility of a MotAO being useful, but it seems like a shame to not to get Spellpool II if you go down that road. Without it that means no Charm Monster, no Magic Jar, or anything like that. IMO it would be better to just use wands of uncommon lvl. 1-3 spells than to only pick up Spellpool I. Of course Guild Thief can get around that if you don't mind crossclassing hide a bit. It's not like you'll be hurting for skillpoints after all. That other Snow fave Rokugan Ninja would work here too. A Rog 1/Wiz 4/Ninja 1/MotAO 1/AT 10/MotAO 3 just manages to eke out Spellpool II, and it looks legal to my 4 a.m. eyes.
einor 12-17-03, 04:36 AM	Maybe i lose something, but don't you lose all the orb spells giving up evocation?? :confused:
Sensei Gith 12-17-03, 09:01 AM	Plus scorching ray.
rilem 12-17-03, 12:19 PM	Yes, you lose scorching ray and orb spells. It's OK; other schools still have great sneak-attackable spells. But this is an old argument. I'm not familiar enough with the MotAO to say for certain, but I do like the added flexibility — but it seems that wizards are pretty flexible already. What about using the approach with a sorceror base instead (either through Arcane Prep feat or the Guild Wizard PrC?) It forces a delay of the build for a level, but couldn't that be gotten around using Guild Thief/Ninja on the Rogue end of the prefix? Here's where my ignorance about spellpooling comes in, but the flexibility it offers would seem to help the Sorceror/Bard-AT's big weakness while keeping the spontaneous flavor (which I agree is neat).
Snow Savant 12-17-03, 01:10 PM	I find myself in the odd position of defending the Evocation school in reference to it being a neccessary school for an AT. This is coming from person too, who dislikes Magic Missile & Fireball so much, I've never used it even once in 3.0/3.5 (and still succeeded with my Wiz/Sorc characters). Evocation has some key spells for an AT, especially when you use non-core spells from the FR material and sourcebooks. Scorching Ray is pretty darn essential for an AT due to its higher grade on the power curve. Thunderlance (FRCS) and Flaming Dagger (MoF) are also extremely effective attack spells that allow you use of your SA damage. And they work great in conjunction with the essential AT spell, Spectral Hand (which unfortunately, is a Necromancy spell). Believe me, I don't like Evocation spells, but they work *great* for the offensive m.o. of the AT. While I appreciate Stoned Golem's mentioning of Ninja as a substitute for Rogue (damn, I love that Ninja!), you lose out on Evasion. Which I personally feel is a critical survival mechanism for an AT. Yeah, you can get a Ring of Evasion, but the AT needs as much inherent defenses as possible just to stay alive. Most builds I see that shortcut the Rog3/Wiz5 angle tend to have a real rough time living through the early levels. Regarding the dilemma of how to best manage your Spell Pool "open" slots, well ... that takes time and experience to tailor it to your role within your party. I find keeping all but 1 cantrip slots open to be a good move. AT's, arguably more than any other spellcaster, get the most mileage out of his 0 level spells. Because you have Acid Splash and Ray of Frost (again, Evocation:() synergy with your SA damage. Also, the AT gets good good use out of the cantrip Ghost Sound, for when engaged in stealth and infiltration activities. Also, if you are an AT and you are not firing Quickened Rays of Frost at your middle levels, you need to rethink your offensive strategy. It's one of the best perks on an AT those levels. :teach: Also note, when using non-core WotC spells, and even D20 material, Evocation has an absolute boatload of Evocation spells that are excellent for the AT. I amend an earlier statement I made about the AT's oarty utility. Yes, you are both a Rogue and a Mage. But you are also quite often a Archer, to boot. Especially in the earlier levels of the build. And many Evocation spells work well in this guise as well. Like Funny said, avoid those Fireball spells - you don't need them. But you sure as heck kick some royal booty with Scorching Ray. Again, regarding Funny's issue about the wasted feat ... yeah, it sucks wind. But you recapture that feat at MotAO2. And you *still* have Spell Pool I. JosephKell, Rilem, & Stoned Golem, thanks for your keen insight as well. Oh yeah, and I still think Stoned Golem's sig is one of the most succinct, yet entertaining ones I've seen in a long time. Very morose though... XO, Snow :)
Stoned Golem 12-17-03, 03:35 PM	You're right about evocation, I completely forgot about FR spells. Blacklight and Shelgarn's Persistent Blade seem too good for an AT to pass on as well. I'm glad you like my sig. For everyone who doesn't know I'll take this opportunity to pimp Something Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net/) , perhaps my favorite webcomic. I strongly recommend that anyone over 13 who isn't easily offended should check it out. The story of my sig starts here (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04282002.shtml) and goes until May 3. Actually go until May 4, you won't regret it. :D
Funny Slaughter 12-17-03, 05:48 PM	should a trickster specialize then? i am really unsure if the extra spell-slots are worth the prohibited school. as for the MotAO: the loss of a feat early on is extremely painful since it falls exactly into the weakest phase of a trickster build. but i think the ability to have the right utility spells on board all the time is worth it. i wont recommend to take spellpool for primary fighting spells, but things like find secret doors or similar that are mainly used for dungeoneering are perfectly suited for a few open slots. i think cooperative spell pays off by the time you take create wand otherwise, all the spells you dont want to prepare everyday but may use sometimes. carrying a bunch of scrolls is much more complicated then standing around a full round. my former trickster was a transmuter who gave up conjuration, that was kind of hard. i think necromancy will be the school of choice to ban, and divination the one to specialize in now. gs Funny
pawsplay 12-18-03, 01:50 AM	Is there anything you can do with a small attack spell you can't also do with a +1 returning dagger? I say give up Evocation and Necromancy.
Boondoggle 12-18-03, 03:31 AM	Lose evocation, buy the MiniHB. It has the 'new' lesser orb spells (but no others, interestingly, so what are they lesser versions of?!) that only shoot one orb, but the damage stays the same (except for lesser sonic orb which does d6 instead of d8) & don't allow a save. Oh, yeah, and they're now conjuration, so that means no SR. It's a broken spell (4 of em, actually), but the MiniHB guys don't plan to errata it, so it will remain a more powerful spell than melf's...
catharz 12-18-03, 03:56 AM	Originally posted by Stoned Golem I'm glad you like my sig. For everyone who doesn't know I'll take this opportunity to pimp Something Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net/) , perhaps my favorite webcomic. I strongly recommend that anyone over 13 who isn't easily offended should check it out. The story of my sig starts here (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04282002.shtml) and goes until May 3. Actually go until May 4, you won't regret it. :D Quite possibly the harshest web comic I have ever read, also the most hilarious: http://somethingpositive.net/arch/sp12192001.gif
Borin 12-28-03, 09:10 PM	I think an AT could easily live without Abjuration and become a Diviniation specialist, especially if there's a full-time caster in the party. Extra Divination spells are always useful in my opinion. Has anyone noticed Force Orb in Unapproachable East? Wiz/sor4 (evocation). 1d6/caster lvl, max 10d6, ranged touch attack. And the best part: you can split it up in 1d6-parts. Would it be possible with this spell to shoot 10 1d6+Sneak Attack damage at someone with just a standard action? They're all seperate attack rolls.
Kenkai 12-28-03, 09:33 PM	:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
balefire42 12-28-03, 11:01 PM	what about: Sorceror4/Rogue3/MotAO4/ArcaneTrickster9 or Sorceror4/Rogue1/Guildthief1/MotAO4/ArcaneTrickster10 Depending on whether you want evasion, or an extra sneak attack and caster level. Spellpool II gives you access to all 1-6 level spells, since you are a sorceror, you don't have to worry about leaving slots open for the spellpool. Unfortunately, you do have to take arcane preperation, so you have very limited feats.
SoulLord 12-29-03, 07:20 PM	ive wondered long about it and i think its possible to specialize in evocation wich is the one youll be using mainly for offense (take into account metamagic version of evocation spells) 0 ray of frost 1 silent ray of frost 2 scorched ray 3 silent scorched ray 4 empowered scorched ray,quickened ray of frost 5 silent empowered scorched ray 6 disintegrate, quickened scorched ray 7 silent disintegrate , silent quickened scorched ray 8 empowered disintegrate, quickened empowered scorched ray 9 silent empowered disintegrate, silent quickened empowered scorched ray school sample spells useful for AT abjuration shield x conjuration evard black tentacles,summon monster * divination true strike enchantment hold monster x evocation scorched ray,disintegrate illusion invisibility necromancy vampiric touch,blind transmutation blink,magic weapon * universal * cant be given up to specialize so the ones i choose are abjuration and enchantment sure you lose some very nice things but you can make it up in the other schools SoulLord
Snow Savant 12-29-03, 09:16 PM	SoulLord, Everyone has their preference and reasoning for going specialist or non-specialist with AT's ... and there is no correct banned school(s) for Specialists. Except one. :) Banning Abjuration means no Dispel Magic. Arguably the most important spell to a mage at any time in his career (including Greater Dispel Magic). The only other issue I have with your spell selection is the inclusion of your heavily-metamagicked Scorching Ray & Ray of Frost spells in your high level slots. The benefit of being at AT is the SA damage piggybacking to your touch & range touch spells. This makes your 0-2nd level attack spells considerably more effective than other mages (who rarely use their 0-1st spells for offense at higher levels) ... and superb cost-effective scaleability as you grow in power. Hence, at higher levels, you should not be allocating spell slots to damage-dealing spells. Your lower level slots are sufficient for such spell placement. Use your higher level spells for utility, divinatory, transport, buff, or save-or-die attack spells. *** Also note, as much as the AT is a mage PrC that emphasizes "damage-dealing" (via piggy-backed Sneak Attack damage), it also is as important to structure your AT build around stealth, subterfuge, & social finesse. In order to emphasize the "Rogue" aspect of the PrC. Hence, schools such as Illusion and Enchantment play heavily in to the effective spell selection mix for an AT. Necromancy is indeed a school that is high on the list for being a decent banned school. There are only 3 necro spells I would sorely miss that work wonders with an AT - Spectral Hand (to deliver touch attacks at range), Magic Jar (creatively, one of the most versatile & deadly arcane spells in the game), & Vampire's Kiss. All of which goes to show, I still like 1 level of MofAO in AT builds. Instead of taking 5 levels of Wizard in a traditional AT build, you can take Wiz3/MofAO2, get Spell Pool I access (spell levels 1-3), and get the feat back you lost for the Cooperative Spell feat pre-req. You are still down one metamagic feat from the Wiz5 level. But I think access to Spell Pool I balances that out, in addition to giving you more than what that one feat could give you. An AT better utilizes the Spell Pool than an average mage. The full-round action it takes to "call" a Spell Pool spell can be done while Hiding (which an AT does almost as well as a Rogue) or Invisible, making the risk to call less than that of a non-stealthy-type mage. Also, the Spell Pool debt will be minimal, especially if you keep open your 0-level slots for Spell Pool use. 0-level slots, by the rules, incur no debt, although DM fiat may affect that. You really don't even need Spell Pool II. Spell Pool I allows access to all the little spells that make a huge difference to a Rogue/Wizard like an AT. Besides the obvious SA-piggyback attack spells like the low-level Rays, Melf' Acid Arrow, Acid Splash, etc., you can use those open slots for: 1. Shatter & Knock - for locks, devices, & portals your OL or DD skill does not work on. 2. Spider Climb & Alter Self- to either climb or fly where you need to in hard to reach areas. 3. Alter Self - quick disguise enhancement capability. 4. Mage Armor & Shield - for a pending big battle. 5. Clairvoyance & Detect Thoughts - scouting for intel! 6. Ventriloquism & Silent Image - general-purpose obfuscation. All the better if you use your Silent Spell metamagic feat with these spells. Or a Silent Spell metamagick rod. *** In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned a bunch of good touch/range touch attack spells for AT. Below I'll list a few spells my current high level AT is using a lot lately. 1. Baleful Transposition [CONJ] from the MH book -- Oh man, this 2nd level spell is good! Cast it when you are invisible. Be sure you are standing right next to your party's grappler or trip expert. Then transport your foe right next to your grappling ally, while you end up invisible, right in the midst of the enemy. Your sneak attacks are certain to succeed, especially if you are in the back ranks of the enemy. 2. Slash Tongue [TRAN] from the BoVD book -- An [Evil] descriptor cantrip spell. It's sometimes better than the cantrip rays and touch attacks that do elemental damage. This cantrip does "1" point of laceration damage to the target's tongue . Of course, you get to add your SA damage. :smirk: A useful spell if you are up against a critter with lots of elemental immunity. 3. Simbul's Spell Matrix [TRAN] from the MoF book -- Load the matrix with 4 Scorching Rays or other SA-capable attack spells. You now have access to the Quicken Spell feat at the cost of a few HP's of damage to yourself. 4. Blindsight [TRAN] from the MoF book -- 1 hour/Level of Blindsight 30'. Awesome when you drop Obscuring Mist Fog Clouds on yourself ... you can "see" just fine *and* you get SA damage on your foes. Your foes can't see jack squat. Nice. 5. Charm Monster -- Preferably with the Silent Spell feat attached and while you are invisible. The perfect spell to cast when you are scouting ahead of your party and right before the melee commences. XO, Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 12-29-03, 10:10 PM	http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp01182002.gif This one is relevant for many of us.
SoulLord 12-30-03, 12:18 PM	True the loss of dispel magic hurts but also does blind, and vampiric touch but i guess you can easily replace abjuration for necromancy as a school to be forbidden. Another school wich i have almost on the same level as necromancy is conjuration after all the AT doesnt want to be in melee, even with flanking partners as she has very low hit points the only thing that is sorely missed is the evards black tentacles as for race ive heard pretty good arguments in favor of Human, halflings and elves the spell selection was more to show that you can indeed use the extra spell slot if you are specialized in evocation at all levels with no dead slots. for the other regular spells i prefer things like grease shatter ilussions and the like :) SoulLord
Stoned Golem 12-30-03, 02:30 PM	Personally I'd never drop Conjuration as an Arcane Trickster. Not only are the summoning spells useful to provide flanking, it also has the fogs and clouds, which create opportunities to sneak attack as well. Plus many of its attack spells are of the no SR variety, and tend to require ranged touch attacks, again making them excellent for magical sneak attacks. Finally it just has useful spells like DDoor and Teleport that no mage should be without.
Mr. Domino 12-30-03, 03:11 PM	Fight the man!!!!! Drop Divination!!!!! Rule 0 forever!!!!!!
Andreas0815 12-30-03, 03:49 PM	What about Sorc 2/rogue 3/Assasin 5/Arcane Trickster 10? You get 12 level Sorc casting, 5 level assasin casting, and +10d6 sneak attack.
Hanniball 12-30-03, 04:09 PM	i'm amazed at those of you that can even fathom dropping Necromancy as a banned school. obviously this is just my opinion but necromancy houses some AT-must haves. Spectral Hand, Vampiric Touch (through the spectral hand), enervation, and magic jar. well, the first two more than the second two but enervation is far too good a spell to pass up, IMO. as far as the MotAO dip, i'd be all about it for a Sor/AT but not a wiz/AT. My experience with a Sor/MatAO was amazing whereas a wiz/matao loses out substantially because they can't cast as many spells per day AND they have to leave their slots bare. leaving a few slots bare at levels 8-12 where your caster level is a whopping 5-9 is devastating. you NEED those slots so leaving them open for a spell that *might* come in handy is not worth it, IMO.
Snow Savant 12-30-03, 06:23 PM	There are 3 glaring issues with choosing Sorc over Wiz in an AT build: 1. AT's need higher spell-level access ASAP, as their build prefix is already slowed by a 2-3 level investment in SA-granting classes. Starting from level 1, a Rog3/Sorc5 is still casting 2nd level spells, while his other 8th level compatriots will be kicking booty ... and baling the AT out of a lot of tactical difficulties. If your build starts at a higher character level, the pain of the early-to-mid levels of an AT Sorc are less pronounced. 2. AT's need, and I mean *NEED* the Quicken Spell feat to really get the max out of their SA-piggybacked attack spells. Sorc can't work here unless it uses some of the Simbul's Spells from MoF. 3. AT Sorcs without MoftAO levels are severely hampered by the lack of versatility that is a neccessity for AT's. Funny Slaughter and myself have both stated the importance of breadth of spell selection needed for an AT. After all, an AT needs both Rogue and typical Mage spells in his repertoire. And the limited spell selection of a Sorc is a huge detriment. XO, Snow :)
balefire42 12-31-03, 12:16 AM	1. A sorceror/rogue will do fine at low levels IMHO, ray of frost is a 0-level spell, chill touch is a 1-level spell, scorching ray is a 2-level spell, invisibility is a 2-level spell, etc. I don't think getting vampiric touch a whole one level later is going to hurt too much. While I'm not saying that it is supirior to a wizard/rogue, it is perfectly viable. And, while a rogue3/sorceror5 may be lacking, a rogue3/sorceror4/MotAO1 should be able to do ok. 2. A Sorceror/MotAO will be able to quicken spells, because to qualify for MotAO, they need to take arcane preperation (MotAO requires you to be able to prepare 2nd level spells). No problems there. 3. On the other hand, sorcerors with MotAO levels are extremely versatile. Here's an example of an early progression that would be plenty effective in my oppinion. Level 1: rogue Levels 2-5: sorceror Levels 6-7: rogue Levels 8-9: MotAO Level 10: arcane trickster
SoulLord 12-31-03, 12:04 PM	Originally posted by Stoned Golem Personally I'd never drop Conjuration as an Arcane Trickster. Not only are the summoning spells useful to provide flanking, it also has the fogs and clouds, which create opportunities to sneak attack as well. Plus many of its attack spells are of the no SR variety, and tend to require ranged touch attacks, again making them excellent for magical sneak attacks. Finally it just has useful spells like DDoor and Teleport that no mage should be without. the problem is if you have concealment from the fogs then your enemy also has concealment wich means no sneack attack possible as for the flanking partners i wont deny their usefulness but i prefer to attack from hiding than to attack while flanking why? * low hit points an AT really doesnt want to be next to a tank type due to its low hit points SoulLord
Snow Savant 12-31-03, 12:46 PM	It's pretty much SOP that any good AT worth his salt will be using the Blindsight spell from either MoF or SavSpec. Hence, he can drop Fog Clouds, Obscuring Mists, etc. with nary a worry to his ability to function in such concealment conditions. All the while your AT can see just fine enough to sneak attack ... while most likely avoiding any effective retaliation whatsoever. Target creatures with Scent, Tremorsense, and Blindsight/Blindsense require modified tactics, but not insurmountable ones. Regarding Hannibal's assessment that keeping open Wizard spell slots for Spell Pool spells is detrimental ... I highly disagree. I routinely keep open 1-to-2 spell slots in spell levels 0 through 3 specifically for utility purposes. The rest are filled with offense spells. And I never run out of offense options with an AT, since AT's make the best use of ultra-super-cheapo Cantrip Wands (Ray of Frost) ... which you do have, right? :smirk: Again, under cover of Hide or Invisibility, I can take my time "calling" Spell Pool spells to effectively deal with out-of-combat challenges. Or while hidden and in scout mode (ahead of the party), I can surreptiously call spells that will help set the table for maxing out my party's impending combat scenario. XO, Snow :)
Hanniball 12-31-03, 01:11 PM	Regarding Hannibal's assessment that keeping open Wizard spell slots for Spell Pool spells is detrimental ... I highly disagree. I routinely keep open 1-to-2 spell slots in spell levels 0 through 3 specifically for utility purposes. only when playing an MotAO i hope...and rightfully so just not at lower levels. again i bring about the caster level/spells per day argument. Ex: Rog 3/Wiz 4/MotAO 1/AT 1 Int:19 (15 base+2 lvls+2 headband) caster level: 5 (character level 9) Spells per day: 4/4/3/2 (with bonus spells)=13 total spells Now straight wiz9 Int: 19 (same as above) Spells per day: 4/5/5/4/3/2 (with bonus spells)=23 total spells Snow, imagine this scenario using above AT: you've burned a few spells already today but have also left open a 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spell slot for calling purposes. you encounter a situation that requires you to call a second level spell (say, shatter) thus leaving your 0th and 1st level spell slots barren and unused. that's 2 ray of frosts/acid splashs piggybacked with SA lost due to attempting to "prepare." Two unused spell slots doesn't occure often for my casters at low-levels. if it happens often for you then perhapse you are simply more skilled at getting more milage out of your spells. Does this analysis warrent the build unplayable? Not by any means. It simply presents a different opinion as to the viability of the one level dip. either way...just my 0.02 cp
Snow Savant 12-31-03, 04:01 PM	Hanniball, That's a pretty case-specific scenario you've drawn up. Let me preface my response to you with a statement regarding usage of the MotAO PrC. It's not a good PrC for magi with resource management issues. Inexperienced magi (Wiz or Sorc), who are not accustomed to properly managing their spell slots in a typical 3-4 combat encounter (and another potential 1-2 non-combat encounter) per day gameplay will *always* have trouble finding just the right amount of slots to allocate to Spell Pool. A lot too, depends on what magic items your mage has (as stated, an AT with a Cantrip Ray Wand is in *very good* stead regarding spell slot management). For beginner's who take a level of MotAO at early spellcasting levels, it's really best to slowly take 1 open spell slot at a time per gaming session - preferably a cantrip or level 1 slot. This way you can learn the ideosynchracies of Spell Pool mechnics and needs ... and then graduate upwards in open slots until you find the right comfort level. Normally, I agree. A Sorc benefits better from MofAO levels than a Wiz. But an AT has so many roles to fill (Rogue, Wizard, Scout, backup Archer, etc.) that the utility of MotAO really behooves a Wiz to take this route. And note, my preferential build for an AT with MotAO levels is to take 2 levels of it, not 1. This way, you recapture your feat used for Cooperative Spell. XO, Snow :)
SoulLord 01-02-04, 12:12 PM	On another tought the wider the spell selection you have access to; the easier it is for a wizard AT to specialize without loosing as much Players handbook MoF SavSpec etc. etc. as mentioned before Blindsight is really a plus for the concealment spells but without it its a good school to consider selecting as a banned school SoulLord