Arcane Trickster build thoughts? ideas ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster build thoughts? ideas ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Claymore108
02-28-06, 09:06 AM Ok, our party needed a rouge and a wizard due to the fact we are very fighter heavy. So i was going to play a rouge/wizard and shoot for Arcane Trickster. My biggest concern is the complete lack of ability of this class combo/prestige class to make a Fort save. I was wondering if anyone had any great feat or build ideas to get this anemic fort save number up. We are allowed to use the feats from PH, the Complete books and most Forgotten realms material. If nobody has any great suggetions to help with the fort saves i would gladly like to see any other ideas people might have for this class. I was thinking about using touch spells with the sneak attacks to deal damage but I am not sure if i want to be that close to the front ranks. It seems to me that a chill touch spell might make me an effective sneak attack flanker. (if it helps, my party is a 6 player group with a paladin, ranger, cleric, druid, barbarian and my rouge.)

This is the route I was thinking about going.
First i am a Dwarf for con bonus and the +2 vrs magic and poison.
1st rouge luck of heroes
2cd rouge
3rd wizard practiced spell caster
4th rouge
5-8 wizard 6th Great Fortitude
9th Arcane trickster
Stickboy2323
02-28-06, 09:27 AM Blood Magus and Mindbender (Complete Arcane) both have good fortitude saves and spell level progression at first level. Blood magus requires the Great Fortitude feat to enter and Mindbender grants Telepathy which is always useful.
Timlagor
02-28-06, 11:03 AM roGUe
Slyver
02-28-06, 03:35 PM Ok, our party needed a rouge and a wizard..

So i was going to play a rouge/wizard...

1st rouge luck of heroes
2cd rouge
3rd wizard practiced spell caster
4th rouge
5-8 wizard 6th Great Fortitude
9th Arcane trickster

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Unless you mean your party needs a red wizard of thay, then I stand corrected.

It is a ubiquitous and long standing pet peeve on these boards when people use the french word for red (rouge) rather than the english word for vagrant, miscreant, villian or thief (rogue). You are unlikely to get a serious answer until you change it.

Slyver
Gavinfoxx
02-28-06, 04:00 PM If English isn't your primary language, just say so, and we'll probably back off...
UMiskatonic
02-28-06, 04:04 PM First, you'll generally be better off with the following:

Rogue 1/Wiz 1-3/Rogue 2/Wiz 4-5/Rogue 3
Rogue 1/Wiz 1-5/Rogue 2-3

This allows you to cram skill points into your rogue skills and not worry about the maximum ranks per level as much. The first build gets you evasion faster, and some campaigns really need it.

Second, there are better ways to advance spellcasting than straight wizard. A level of mindbender is really nice, though skill point intensive.

Third, dwarf does give you +2 to con. It also gives you a 20% xp penalty. You're better off with halfling, elf, human, or half-elf.

Fourth, the straightest way in isn't always the best. You may have better results getting into AT through Daggerspell Mage or Assassin.
Khan the Destroyer
02-28-06, 04:29 PM Hmmm... off the top of my head, Bear's Endurance will help on fortitude saves, though only for a short while.

Since you are a rogue, you can put max ranks in Use Magic Device. Carry around items that might help mitigate the effects of a fortitude-targetting spell (such as a Wand of Delay Poison, or a Wand of Restoration).

Although you didn't list Savage Species as a resource, I'll include this anyways for your consideration. But Savage Species has a couple of spells that increase saving throws for 1 hour/level. The spells are Major and Superior Resistance. They add a +3 bonus and +6 bonus respectively to your saving throws.

Other than that, perhaps try to avoid being the target of such spells by giving your enemies a miss chance against you, or using spells such as Spell Immunity or Spell Resistance. If you don't need to make the saving throw in the first place, that's all the better.
If English isn't your primary language, just say so, and we'll probably back off...
So, english has to be his secondary language for him to make a very common spelling mistake on these boards?

How about you guys back off regardless of his primary language and accept the fact that people aren't perfect?

Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
The Orange Pet
02-28-06, 04:59 PM Good thoughts Khan.

I've a player trying this approach as well and thought I'd chime in.

It seems to me that the optimal intro to AT is as follows:

Rogue1/Wizard5/GuildThief1

<OR>

Rogue1/Wizard5/Assassin1 (if evil)

Either way is good, but the GT intro is probably slightly more utilitarian. Either way, making abundant use of your UMD skill will make your character a survivor if you're worried about saves.
Reiner
02-28-06, 08:23 PM I played an arcane trickster build from level 3-17, and found it fun, if rather weak at the earlier stages. My favorite entry is what UMiskatonic suggested. Take Rogue 1, Wiz1-3, Rog2-3, Wiz3-5. You grab evasion pretty early which is nice. There will never be a time where you regret not having evasion, atleast I didn't. Since Int should be your main stat, pump it up as much as possible and focus on being a skill monkey in the early levels. You should play him more like a ranged rogue in the early levels since he'll be low on hitpoints constantly and with less spells known. Once you get into Arcane Trickster itself the growing pains start to fade away and the character will come into its own as a versatile spellcaster.

I'd stay away from touch attacks mainly because of the many d4 hitdice you will have. Not to mention the usually poor armor class. My personal favorite spells to use with an arcane trickster are the Orb line of spells. They show up in Complete Arcane, and even the lesser versions are really good first level spells that remain viable into later levels. 5d8 + sneak attack is still nice at level 10 or 11, especially if coupled with a lesser metamagic rod of quicken. Nothing opens a fight quite like two ray spells plus two sneak attacks to an evildoer.

Aside from the orb spells, i would try to concentrate on battlefield control spells, once that you can cast and forget. The less spells you blowthrough the better, since you won't be as powerful as a full caster. Spells i like are the wall set of spells, the fog's, ray of enfeeblement, evard's black tentacles, etc. And lastly, prepare some defensive spells, including perhaps blink, greater invisibility, mage armor, displacement, etc. These are just my personal opinions.

There isn't much you can do about the fortitude save to make it good enough for most things you'll encounter. Stacking 3 classes/prc's with crappy saves won't help. My best suggestion is to avoid fort saves. Stay away from anything that has poison or disease, and use displacement or blink etc to give enemies a miss chance. And cloaks of resistence are one of the best bargain items you can buy, one of those will help you saves tremendously.
FeceMan
02-28-06, 09:06 PM Kekeke?

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 5?

Maybe? No books on me, so I can't see how well it will work. I think you need human, though, because of the Daggerspell Mage's requirements.
Endar45
02-28-06, 09:27 PM I was actually just about to point out that Daggerspell Mage is my preferred method of entering Arcane Trickster. On the other hand, my favorite skillful arcane rogue build is mostly Daggerspell with only a few levels of the Trickster:

Wizard 1-5
Fighter 1
Rogue 1
Daggerspell Mage 1-2
Spellsword 1
Daggerspell Mage 3-10
Arcane Trickster 2

This grants: 12 BAB, 17 Wizard Caster Level, 5d6 Sneak Attack, and other goodies. Not a front line fighter, but a very suitable "ray" rogue who has a lot of daggery cheese.
Kuroi Kenshi
03-01-06, 02:00 AM Wizard 1-5
Fighter 1
Rogue 1
Daggerspell Mage 1-2
Spellsword 1
Daggerspell Mage 3-10
Arcane Trickster 2

This grants: 12 BAB, 17 Wizard Caster Level, 5d6 Sneak Attack, and other goodies. Not a front line fighter, but a very suitable "ray" rogue who has a lot of daggery cheese.
I second this build. It covers everything you'll need, including boosts to your fortitude save. Just be sure to take able learner at level 1 so you can keep up your rogue skills easily.

Another build by Mommy was an orc drops 2 wizard levels for 2 rogue levels...In this case though, I think the party would benefit more from a wizard that has a natural CL of 17+.
ScrubKai
03-01-06, 04:46 PM I have to Second all that Renier had to say.

I also went with the Rogue/Wizard path to become an arcane trickster and have never regretted spending the extra level to get evasion. No matter how you get there I suggest looking at the Practiced Spellcaster Feat.

Avoid Touch spells, and stick with Ranged Touch spells. The Orbs, and many of the rays work great in conjunction with your sneak attack. I know some people laugh at the Ray spells, but opening combat with a Sneak attacked Disintegrate, followed by a Quickened Scorching Ray (again with sneak attack) can put a crimp in most monster’s day.

Also don't forget that you can sneak attack with Wands. I found that in the mid levels, I would sometimes run out of spells before the end of a long day. However having a 5d8 + Sneak Attack wand of Lesser Orb of <something> means I'm still right there dishing out the damage.

As for your concern about your Fort save. I actually very rarely have had a problem. I learned quickly not to put myself into the situation where I have to make a Fort save.
Remember they can't hit what they can't see. With Hide as a class skill at higher levels you can hide and snipe. Add in the +20 to hide from Greater Invisibility, Polymorph to a tiny creature, +4 from Shadow Form (from complete Adventure) and a good Dex and you should have no problems sniping with spells against any creature without True Sight.
If by chance they do see you, Fly or Haste and Tumble can quickly get you out of a threatened area and behind another party member.
If something is still determined to get you, a cloak of resistance and amulet of Health can pretty quickly boost your fort save up to an area where you have a reasonable chance to save against whatever it is that’s hurting you.

But remember, you are NOT a front line character. You are a thief/mage and even with polymorph you aren’t going to last more then a few rounds in the front line.

One final thought. As a wizard you get that nifty free scribe scroll and 5th level meta-magic or item creation feat. Picking up Craft Wondrous Item lets you not only make the cloak of resistance and amulet of Health, but you can also build a bunch of skill and stat enhancing items. Add in a few low level scrolls, (Jump, Spider Climb, Invisibility, knock, etc.) and you can out-thief most thieves in just about any skill they have.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Claymore108 02-28-06, 09:06 AM	Ok, our party needed a rouge and a wizard due to the fact we are very fighter heavy. So i was going to play a rouge/wizard and shoot for Arcane Trickster. My biggest concern is the complete lack of ability of this class combo/prestige class to make a Fort save. I was wondering if anyone had any great feat or build ideas to get this anemic fort save number up. We are allowed to use the feats from PH, the Complete books and most Forgotten realms material. If nobody has any great suggetions to help with the fort saves i would gladly like to see any other ideas people might have for this class. I was thinking about using touch spells with the sneak attacks to deal damage but I am not sure if i want to be that close to the front ranks. It seems to me that a chill touch spell might make me an effective sneak attack flanker. (if it helps, my party is a 6 player group with a paladin, ranger, cleric, druid, barbarian and my rouge.) This is the route I was thinking about going. First i am a Dwarf for con bonus and the +2 vrs magic and poison. 1st rouge luck of heroes 2cd rouge 3rd wizard practiced spell caster 4th rouge 5-8 wizard 6th Great Fortitude 9th Arcane trickster
Stickboy2323 02-28-06, 09:27 AM	Blood Magus and Mindbender (Complete Arcane) both have good fortitude saves and spell level progression at first level. Blood magus requires the Great Fortitude feat to enter and Mindbender grants Telepathy which is always useful.
Timlagor 02-28-06, 11:03 AM	roGUe
Slyver 02-28-06, 03:35 PM	Ok, our party needed a rouge and a wizard.. So i was going to play a rouge/wizard... 1st rouge luck of heroes 2cd rouge 3rd wizard practiced spell caster 4th rouge 5-8 wizard 6th Great Fortitude 9th Arcane trickster "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Unless you mean your party needs a red wizard of thay, then I stand corrected. It is a ubiquitous and long standing pet peeve on these boards when people use the french word for red (rouge) rather than the english word for vagrant, miscreant, villian or thief (rogue). You are unlikely to get a serious answer until you change it. Slyver
Gavinfoxx 02-28-06, 04:00 PM	If English isn't your primary language, just say so, and we'll probably back off...
UMiskatonic 02-28-06, 04:04 PM	First, you'll generally be better off with the following: Rogue 1/Wiz 1-3/Rogue 2/Wiz 4-5/Rogue 3 Rogue 1/Wiz 1-5/Rogue 2-3 This allows you to cram skill points into your rogue skills and not worry about the maximum ranks per level as much. The first build gets you evasion faster, and some campaigns really need it. Second, there are better ways to advance spellcasting than straight wizard. A level of mindbender is really nice, though skill point intensive. Third, dwarf does give you +2 to con. It also gives you a 20% xp penalty. You're better off with halfling, elf, human, or half-elf. Fourth, the straightest way in isn't always the best. You may have better results getting into AT through Daggerspell Mage or Assassin.
Khan the Destroyer 02-28-06, 04:29 PM	Hmmm... off the top of my head, Bear's Endurance will help on fortitude saves, though only for a short while. Since you are a rogue, you can put max ranks in Use Magic Device. Carry around items that might help mitigate the effects of a fortitude-targetting spell (such as a Wand of Delay Poison, or a Wand of Restoration). Although you didn't list Savage Species as a resource, I'll include this anyways for your consideration. But Savage Species has a couple of spells that increase saving throws for 1 hour/level. The spells are Major and Superior Resistance. They add a +3 bonus and +6 bonus respectively to your saving throws. Other than that, perhaps try to avoid being the target of such spells by giving your enemies a miss chance against you, or using spells such as Spell Immunity or Spell Resistance. If you don't need to make the saving throw in the first place, that's all the better. If English isn't your primary language, just say so, and we'll probably back off... So, english has to be his secondary language for him to make a very common spelling mistake on these boards? How about you guys back off regardless of his primary language and accept the fact that people aren't perfect? Yeah, that sounds reasonable.
The Orange Pet 02-28-06, 04:59 PM	Good thoughts Khan. I've a player trying this approach as well and thought I'd chime in. It seems to me that the optimal intro to AT is as follows: Rogue1/Wizard5/GuildThief1 <OR> Rogue1/Wizard5/Assassin1 (if evil) Either way is good, but the GT intro is probably slightly more utilitarian. Either way, making abundant use of your UMD skill will make your character a survivor if you're worried about saves.
Reiner 02-28-06, 08:23 PM	I played an arcane trickster build from level 3-17, and found it fun, if rather weak at the earlier stages. My favorite entry is what UMiskatonic suggested. Take Rogue 1, Wiz1-3, Rog2-3, Wiz3-5. You grab evasion pretty early which is nice. There will never be a time where you regret not having evasion, atleast I didn't. Since Int should be your main stat, pump it up as much as possible and focus on being a skill monkey in the early levels. You should play him more like a ranged rogue in the early levels since he'll be low on hitpoints constantly and with less spells known. Once you get into Arcane Trickster itself the growing pains start to fade away and the character will come into its own as a versatile spellcaster. I'd stay away from touch attacks mainly because of the many d4 hitdice you will have. Not to mention the usually poor armor class. My personal favorite spells to use with an arcane trickster are the Orb line of spells. They show up in Complete Arcane, and even the lesser versions are really good first level spells that remain viable into later levels. 5d8 + sneak attack is still nice at level 10 or 11, especially if coupled with a lesser metamagic rod of quicken. Nothing opens a fight quite like two ray spells plus two sneak attacks to an evildoer. Aside from the orb spells, i would try to concentrate on battlefield control spells, once that you can cast and forget. The less spells you blowthrough the better, since you won't be as powerful as a full caster. Spells i like are the wall set of spells, the fog's, ray of enfeeblement, evard's black tentacles, etc. And lastly, prepare some defensive spells, including perhaps blink, greater invisibility, mage armor, displacement, etc. These are just my personal opinions. There isn't much you can do about the fortitude save to make it good enough for most things you'll encounter. Stacking 3 classes/prc's with crappy saves won't help. My best suggestion is to avoid fort saves. Stay away from anything that has poison or disease, and use displacement or blink etc to give enemies a miss chance. And cloaks of resistence are one of the best bargain items you can buy, one of those will help you saves tremendously.
FeceMan 02-28-06, 09:06 PM	Kekeke? Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 5? Maybe? No books on me, so I can't see how well it will work. I think you need human, though, because of the Daggerspell Mage's requirements.
Endar45 02-28-06, 09:27 PM	I was actually just about to point out that Daggerspell Mage is my preferred method of entering Arcane Trickster. On the other hand, my favorite skillful arcane rogue build is mostly Daggerspell with only a few levels of the Trickster: Wizard 1-5 Fighter 1 Rogue 1 Daggerspell Mage 1-2 Spellsword 1 Daggerspell Mage 3-10 Arcane Trickster 2 This grants: 12 BAB, 17 Wizard Caster Level, 5d6 Sneak Attack, and other goodies. Not a front line fighter, but a very suitable "ray" rogue who has a lot of daggery cheese.
Kuroi Kenshi 03-01-06, 02:00 AM	Wizard 1-5 Fighter 1 Rogue 1 Daggerspell Mage 1-2 Spellsword 1 Daggerspell Mage 3-10 Arcane Trickster 2 This grants: 12 BAB, 17 Wizard Caster Level, 5d6 Sneak Attack, and other goodies. Not a front line fighter, but a very suitable "ray" rogue who has a lot of daggery cheese. I second this build. It covers everything you'll need, including boosts to your fortitude save. Just be sure to take able learner at level 1 so you can keep up your rogue skills easily. Another build by Mommy was an orc drops 2 wizard levels for 2 rogue levels...In this case though, I think the party would benefit more from a wizard that has a natural CL of 17+.
ScrubKai 03-01-06, 04:46 PM	I have to Second all that Renier had to say. I also went with the Rogue/Wizard path to become an arcane trickster and have never regretted spending the extra level to get evasion. No matter how you get there I suggest looking at the Practiced Spellcaster Feat. Avoid Touch spells, and stick with Ranged Touch spells. The Orbs, and many of the rays work great in conjunction with your sneak attack. I know some people laugh at the Ray spells, but opening combat with a Sneak attacked Disintegrate, followed by a Quickened Scorching Ray (again with sneak attack) can put a crimp in most monster’s day. Also don't forget that you can sneak attack with Wands. I found that in the mid levels, I would sometimes run out of spells before the end of a long day. However having a 5d8 + Sneak Attack wand of Lesser Orb of <something> means I'm still right there dishing out the damage. As for your concern about your Fort save. I actually very rarely have had a problem. I learned quickly not to put myself into the situation where I have to make a Fort save. Remember they can't hit what they can't see. With Hide as a class skill at higher levels you can hide and snipe. Add in the +20 to hide from Greater Invisibility, Polymorph to a tiny creature, +4 from Shadow Form (from complete Adventure) and a good Dex and you should have no problems sniping with spells against any creature without True Sight. If by chance they do see you, Fly or Haste and Tumble can quickly get you out of a threatened area and behind another party member. If something is still determined to get you, a cloak of resistance and amulet of Health can pretty quickly boost your fort save up to an area where you have a reasonable chance to save against whatever it is that’s hurting you. But remember, you are NOT a front line character. You are a thief/mage and even with polymorph you aren’t going to last more then a few rounds in the front line. One final thought. As a wizard you get that nifty free scribe scroll and 5th level meta-magic or item creation feat. Picking up Craft Wondrous Item lets you not only make the cloak of resistance and amulet of Health, but you can also build a bunch of skill and stat enhancing items. Add in a few low level scrolls, (Jump, Spider Climb, Invisibility, knock, etc.) and you can out-thief most thieves in just about any skill they have.