Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracophile 01-31-05, 07:18 AM	Yeah, you read that right. Should I even bother with a core Rogue 3/Wiz 7/AT 10 in World's Largest Dungeon? I've read all the AT threads, and the consensus seems to be that they are rather weak, and tough to play at early levels. AND this assesment is for a "regular" campaign. In WLD, a Wizard isn't able to just buy scrolls, so his spells are rather limited. Also, it's a 20-level dungeon crawl, with many encounters per day. It seems that I'd quickly use up my ranged touch attack spells, and them be stuck as a crappy archer until we can find a safe room to camp out for the night. Is this doable? Should I get my head examined? :confused: There is already a Rogue in the party, but no Arcane. (Rogue/Paladin/Cleric/Druid/and me) My goal was to provide Arcane support, and also back up the Rogue on Search/Disable Device checks. Can we get through WLD without Arcane all together? I'm tempted to just play another Druid for the survivability aspect. (And to provide another character to help heal the poor Rogue.) Tanx
rilem 01-31-05, 10:01 AM	My goal was to provide Arcane support, and also back up the Rogue on Search/Disable Device checks. If that's all you want, a Human Wizard with Able Learner feat and a single Rogue level would do the job. Once you're at a sufficiently survivable level (i.e., level 10-11) you can consider another class that grants sneak attack at level 1 and finish out with AT without as much pain. I'm a little unclear on WLD parameters -- do Wizards still get new spells as they level, if there's no place to study, etc? Expensive spell components are out, as well, I imagine.
Aramil Liadon 01-31-05, 10:39 AM	I'm a little unclear on WLD parameters -- do Wizards still get new spells as they level, if there's no place to study, etc? Expensive spell components are out, as well, I imagine. By the Class description, it says that a wizard get's 2 spells per level for free. That's it. I think it depens on the DM. If you find a lot of scrolls, it's okay. Otherwise, with just 2 spells per level, it's going to be tough. Why not take a sorceror with eschew materials? Aramil
Elzaban the Ethereal 01-31-05, 10:56 AM	A Wizard who plans on surviving the WLD should take Collegiate Wizard from Complete Arcane at 1st level. Getting 2 more spells known each level is a godsend in the dungeon, as is starting of with the extra 1st level spells. That aside, we have an Arcane Trickster in our Party. Rouge 1/Evoker 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Archmage 3 is the build he's looking at now. And depending on where you go in it, rests can occur very often. Between a good build and Collegiate Wizard, I imagine you'd be able to survive in it. The druid, however...
rilem 01-31-05, 11:00 AM	That's what I was thinking, but Sorceror lacks Intelligence synergy to help out on the skills side. Might not be a problem with Able Learner; haven't crunched the numbers. Also, the already-delayed progression of a Sorceror makes taking a rogue level hurt more. You can up your free spells to 4 from 2 with a Complete Arcane feat, I think. A Psion Kineticist would be best of all, I think -- they've got Disable Device as class skill and Int. as chief attribute. You might not even need Able Learner.
loyce8869 01-31-05, 11:12 AM	I know that at least in the first couple of regions that my group went through in the WLD we found a good amount of scrolls that our wizard was able to put into his spell book. Also found large amounts of gems and other things he was able to use for componets.
Timespike 01-31-05, 01:06 PM	I'd say go sorcerer, myself. Being able to cast a few really good spells more or less at will is going to be more useful than a wizard's more encyclopedic, but less accessable selection of spells.
rilem 01-31-05, 01:30 PM	Just noticed the Core-only mandate. Apolgies, Able Learner is out, then. Just so we're clear: You mean core=PH, DMG, MM and that's it, right? What about Deep Halfling Rogue1/WizardX Deep Halfling, from Monster Manual, gets stonecunning, which helps on searches. Also Darkvision. With 18 in Int., you can keep your Search and Disable Ranks up high enough to help out your Rogue colleague.
catharz 01-31-05, 02:26 PM	You already have a rogue, so I would say no to the AT. If you didn't have a rogue already, adding an AT to the party would be awesome.
preacher of nothing 01-31-05, 02:38 PM	As rilem has already pointed out, able learner is out since it's not core. I wouldn't really suggest a wizard without able learner for ANY dungeon crawl, let alone WLD. If i were you, i'd do my best to convince the DM to allow me to use a psion kineticist.
mvincent 01-31-05, 05:29 PM	AT is good if your party has no rogue (or you just really want a skill monkey). While taking your first level in Rogue is pretty optimal, losing three caster levels is not. A better way to qualify (using just the core rules) is rogue1/wizard5/assasin1... that way you're only losing two caster levels. Of course, then your alignment would be nothing to be proud of...
Blade2718 01-31-05, 07:00 PM	But if you go with the Assassin route, you miss Evasion, which is sometimes the only thing keeping the future Arcane Trickster alive.
mvincent 01-31-05, 08:21 PM	But if you go with the Assassin route, you miss Evasion, which is sometimes the only thing keeping the future Arcane Trickster alive.If he is being run mainly as an enabled rogue, then yes. If he is being run mainly as a wizard (with extra skills), then the caster level may be more important than evasion (i.e. wizard get by fine without evasion). Even at mid levels, a rogue1/wizard5 is likely more effective than a rogue2/wizard4 or rogue3/wizard3 (even without evasion). I reckon an assasin AT could always pick up another rogue level to get evasion without being worse off than a regular AT, but I couldn't recommend it.
Myer Lynk 01-31-05, 08:58 PM	There are actually several points to look at when building a character like this: How many levels of each are you planning to take (I.E. did you want to take AT all the way to level 10?) If scrolls and other things are going to be a weakness then yes I agree with Aramil Liadon be a Sorcerer with eschew material I have actually done that on several occasions and had great fun with it. How are you building this character?30 point build? what race are you ? How are you going to place your stats? What do you envision (I.E. a spellcaster with skills?) off subject... I have not heard of the WLD what is it? a lvl 1 to 20 dungeon?
MattHawk 01-31-05, 10:29 PM	World's Largest Dungeon - a massive hardcover book, takes the party from 1 to 20, encounter every OGL monster on the way :)
Myer Lynk 02-01-05, 01:15 PM	That sounds sweet, now where would you get food? or do you need a few ranks in survival? Oh BTW I have been thinking about a build for this ( I like going with half elves myself... I'm weird like that) I would do sorcerer 5,figther 4,spellsword 1,rogue 10 not much in the way of spells....but you get a lot of skills, some magic to back those up (detect magic),spider climb, jump, light... shield you get some extra hp and BAB from the fighter levels not the mention the feats you can cast the spells in light armor with little or no spell failure Personally I think a ranger taken all the way to level 20 would be just fine with the spells and all :O) one of which is darkvision
Dracophile 02-01-05, 10:42 PM	Yeah, it is Core only (PHB, DMG, MMI). I hate the synergy problems with Sorcerer/Rogue, but I think I'll need the sorcerer levels for the extra spells. (Plus, spontaneously casting means I'll never have to "waste" a slot memorizing a non-ray spell.) Evil characters aren't an option, so I'd go Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 2/Sorcerer 5-6/Rogue 3/AT 1-10/Rogue 4 It's a 28-point-buy Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 14 I've got 4 points left over, but I'm not sure what to bring up to 16. I'll be raising Charisma with level, so I'll always have the spell minimums. I guess the question is...how hard are levels 1-8 going to be? And when I finally do reach the okay levels, will I have enough spells per day in WLD? And since metamagic's not an option...how much do Arcane Tricksters rely on Quciken Spell to hold their own?
Myer Lynk 02-01-05, 11:50 PM	ok so we have a 28 point build and you want to be a spellcasting Rogue, Personally I would do the stats up: Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 15 Use the bonus points to build up dex to 18 and charisma to atleast 16 depending on what level spells you are casting of course. I understand that the appeal of an arcane trickster, taking your caster levels, skills and sneak attack up a notch, the only problem is that as your caster level goes up so must charisma (which unfortunately is a useless skill most of the time) don't wanna seem like I'm putting the class down just not an overall fan. as for the quicken spell I'm not quite sure, any spellcaster would get on better with it obviously but aslong as you keep on your guard and keep that spot and listen check up you should be fine
ShiverTheBard 02-02-05, 01:03 AM	So, WLD is in a book eh? I couldn't tell from just the random spatterings around the boards. So where can I get this book with which to torture my PCs? Info would be greatly appreciated. Now to the topic: Core only truly sucks as you lose a lot of nice arcane casters (warmage, warlock, etc.). For this, I personally would say go almost pure bard. The skills are nice, decent combat ability and spells, and that music is just so damn spoony. Maybe go Dragon Disciple if you want to make him a nasty singer.