Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoostBuijs 01-03-04, 01:00 PM	I want to play an arcane trickster, just wondering what good sources (threads/links etc.) there are about, I tried to search, but came up with way too much diddely doo. I am more like looking for an overal Faq/guide something. Thanks in advance.
Snow Savant 01-03-04, 02:08 PM	Hi Joost, I got your message re: the content of this thread. And for some reason, I cannot PM you back. (???) It just sits there when I trigger the reply. Doesn't even time-out, it just sits there. Anyway, just thought I would update you. There are actually a number of very good *long* threads on the AT. Ones with a lot of replies tend to be good bandwagon threads where there are nice little bon mots of AT tactics, spell selection, build structure info., etc. This thread - * PRESS HERE * (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95288&highlight=thunderlance) - is worth a good read. I have a future objective to post a thread that details all the best spells for an AT Wiz/Sorc, level by level, and using all the WotC books. But that's quite an undertaking and I hope to work on it in Jan/Feb. I'm creating my own web site as we speak ... and it will definitely be posted there as well. XO, Snow :)
JoostBuijs 01-03-04, 02:14 PM	That's great, thank you. :) And don't worry about the PM then. :P And I truely do hope to see that work on the spells as well(as do most other players of DnD I believe)! Thanks again.
Prism 01-03-04, 04:04 PM	Generally I like to see a good mix of spells for an AT which are useful both independantly and in combination. So for example, glitterdust is a fine spell for highlighting invisible opponents, but when faced with a few low will save critters the blindness effect can let you dish up some decent damage in the following rounds with your sneak attacks. Speaking of sneak attacks I prefer melfs acid arrow as another multi purpose spell. Acid damage is useful, its sneakable, it can be extended, it disrupts spell casting, and it allows no SR. I also like chill touch with its ability to be used multiple times. Evards tenticles is a fantastic 4th level spell for any mage, but as an AT you should be taking advantage of the fact your opponents are being grappled and lose their dex. Thunderlance from FR is a good way of getting long range hits in (20') an is another example of a multi purpose spell. A sneaked vampires touch is a good start to combat, hopefully delivered by a spectral hand or enhanced with the reach spell feat. If you don't mind getting up close and personal, or simply can't avoid it, then gutsnake from FR again is a good defensive spell and again has the added advantage of forcing most opponents into a grapple and can be followed up with sneak attacks again.
Snow Savant 01-03-04, 04:49 PM	Prism's suggestion are excellent. In general, I find a great way to structure AT builds is to avoid the Spell Focus feats and concentrate on acquiring offensive spells that require no DC's and/or do not allow Spell Resistance. Of course, this generally means concentrating heavily on Conjuration & certain Evocation offensive spells. Your bread & butter attack spells are still rays and touch/range touch spells. But spells like Evard's Tentacles, Acid Fog, etc. are not to be underestimated. Your feat selections are crucial, and depending upon your AT's particular angle, you will be looking at metamagic, archery/missile, item creation (Wondrous Items or Wands), & roguish feats. Therefore, being able to bypass the normally de rigeur Spell Focus feats (since you are a primary caster) while still staying offensively viable is a *really* good thing. No matter what your AT's angle is, the Silent Spell feat or a Silent Spell metamagic rod is downright mandatory for a stealthy, scouty, & infiltraty Trickster. My high level AT is currently getting a ton of incredible utility out of the Blindsight spell (2nd level), Ghostform spell (5th level) and Magic Jar spell (5th level). When using savvy spells like this, she becomes by far & away, the hardest character in the party to kill. And really gives her amazing versatility beyond just firing Ray of Frosts with Sneak Attack Piggyback. XO, Snow :)
Psifon 01-03-04, 05:06 PM	Snow, what do you think of adding archmage to the mix? This gives you arcane reach, which broadens the AT's shtick. Or are there enough rays out there that it isn't worth the feat cost?
JoostBuijs 01-03-04, 05:55 PM	I would say I am fairly good at playing a rogue, though I want to play something different for a change. All my wizard characters died helplessy(or accidantly fireball'd the party members), I have no -idea- how to play a wizard, nor an Arcane Trickster. Where can I find these spells? I seen the orbs in T&B, which seemed good. About the feats, I definatly want these feats: Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell and Silent Spell. The rest seems a bit of a rough guess to me :D My fav. Rogue-ish Characters have always had Spring attack/Finesse, seeing the AT uses ranged touch attacks, I think the spring attack is unneeded, but touch attacks are based on strenght, would Finesse on rays be worth it? How about empower and extend/persistant spell? -persistant has always seemed a bit un-needed for wizards IMO (might be totally wrong :p) empower/extend might be differing. Also I need to fill the rogue part of the party, is it a bad thing to waste loads of skill on search/disable device and the like? Or is it just like playing the rogue itself in caster variant? No other questions so far :D
Snow Savant 01-03-04, 07:57 PM	Psifon said: Snow, what do you think of adding archmage to the mix? This gives you arcane reach, which broadens the AT's shtick. Or are there enough rays out there that it isn't worth the feat cost? Well, there are so many "good" AT permutation build out there ... and an Archmage suffix is attached to a number of them. I personally do not see the need for it due to the rather sub-optimal pre-req.'s of SkFoc: Spellcraft and 2 SpFoc feats. That really take a huge chunk of your limited feat slots out. So it's really a matter of personal taste. Although the following 3 Archmage abilities totally rock for an AT if you choose to go that route: 1. Arcane Fire = Long Ranged Touch Attack! 1d6 + ArchMg Level in d6 + Spell Level in d6 = Limitless offense! Although for those of you that just squeak by getting your AT a 9th level spell slot, you now have to relinquish it. :( 2. Arcane Reach = 30' range for your non-ranged touch attacks. Another 7th level spell slot cost moves that out to 60'. I personally do not care for this as I have Wands and most of my 1st through 2nd level slots allocated to good ranged SA-piggyback attack spells. Most of my higher level spells are utility and specialty attack. 3. Mastery of Elements = Scorching Ray now does sonic damage to those Fire Giants with no metamagick cost. Nice. **** I find metamagic feats like Quicken Spell, Extend/Persistent Spell (Ghostform!), Imp. Initiative, C.W.I., & Silent Spell are pretty darn mandatory to my AT builds. Energy Substitution is right up there as well (for Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Scorching Ray). And I prefer Mage of the Arcane Order (instead of a prefix of Wiz5, I go Wiz3/MotAO2) for tons of spell level 1-3 versatility. Unfortunately, this costs me a waste of using Cooperative spell in my builds. So as you can see, Archmage gets to be a tight shoehorn for my builds. Although it becomes much more viable for AT builds with a Wiz5 prefix. And like stated prior, there is no such thing as the perfect AT build. Each campaign emphasis & player quirks/strengths are different. Some folks like Sorceror or Bard AT's, and that's fine. And indeed there are good builds for both. But as an AT, you are playing so many different character. Rogue, Mage, Scout, Archer (sometimes!), Buffer, Party Face, etc. ... that you are feat selection needs to be custom-tailored to min/max your specific scenario. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Prism 01-03-04, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by JoostBuijs Where can I find these spells? I seen the orbs in T&B, which seemed good. Most of the basic spells are core. Forgotten Realms adds in blindsight, thunderlance and a few other nice options. The orb spells aren't as good as basic acid arrow or scorching ray IMO as they allow both SR and a save for half. Also, only one orb in any volley applies sneak damage. As Snow suggests, ghostform can be an excellent spell (T&B), which allows you to hide in solid object and attack with ghost touch weapons if needed using your dex instead of strength. About the feats, I definatly want these feats: Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell and Silent Spell. The rest seems a bit of a rough guess to me :D Those are all fine choices. My AT also has point blank shot and precise shot which apply both to missile attacks and your ranged touch attacks. At later levels hitting a touch AC gets a bit easier so not everybody goes for these two. Extand Spell is always good and possibly chain spell to turn some of those single opponent sneak attacks into mass target spells My fav. Rogue-ish Characters have always had Spring attack/Finesse, seeing the AT uses ranged touch attacks, I think the spring attack is unneeded, but touch attacks are based on strenght, would Finesse on rays be worth it? Touch attacks are Str based but ranged touch are Dex based so need great need for finesse unless you want to use spectral hand and touch attacks. Again, you will find that touch AC's are fairly easy to hit Also I need to fill the rogue part of the party, is it a bad thing to waste loads of skill on search/disable device and the like? Or is it just like playing the rogue itself in caster variant? Not at all. If you play a wizard/AT you should have a decent INT and therefore probably almost as many skill points as a straight rogue. I'd say that an AT character is more of a caster than a rogue but is certainly varied and skilled enough to handle the rogues job. If you play a sorcerer/AT you will most likely have fewer skill points and should probably focus on the CHA based skills like bluff, diplomacy etc
Prism 01-03-04, 08:09 PM	oops
Prism 01-03-04, 08:10 PM	And again
Prism 01-03-04, 08:12 PM	hangs head in shame
JoostBuijs 01-04-04, 04:31 AM	1, 2, 3 and 4 .. that just rox. :D Thanks for all the advice again, I will try and make some build now then. :P I'd like some advice later!
Boondoggle 01-04-04, 05:17 AM	The orb spells aren't as good as basic acid arrow or scorching ray IMO as they allow both SR and a save for half. Also, only one orb in any volley applies sneak damage. The 'revised' lesser orb spells appear in the Miniatures Handbook, and I suspect they might creap into other upcoming product. Frankly, they are broken, now. However, for purposes of an AT, you can't go wrong: They are now conjuration spells that don't allow a save or SR. They also only shoot one orb, but the damage progression is unchanged.
JoostBuijs 01-04-04, 05:52 AM	Alright, I can start my character at level 11, so the start shouldn't be much of a problem ^_^ Still I want to go with rog 3 / wiz 5, I just like things simple. Rogue 3 / Wizard 7 / Arcane Trickster 10 01: Rog 1 - Spellcasting prodigy 02: Rog 1 / Wiz 1 03: Rog 1 / Wiz 2 - Improved initiative 04: Rog 1 / Wiz 3 05: Rog 2 / Wiz 3 06: Rog 2 / Wiz 4 - Silent spell 07: Rog 2 / Wiz 5 08: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 09: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 1 - Quicken spell 10: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 2 11: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 3 12: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 4 - Extend spell 13: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 5 14: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 6 15: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 7 - Persistant spell 16: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 8 17: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 9 18: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 10 - Feat 19: Rog 3 / Wiz 6 / AT 10 20: Rog 3 / Wiz 7 / AT 10 This is how I will do it I guess, what last feat would you suggest? - and is Spellcasting prodigy worth it? Or if you think I should change the feats all over .. please tell me. :) Then I got Point buy system 30 Str 8 – 12 – (4) Dex 8 – 15 – (8) +1(4th) (16) Con 8 – 12 – (4) Int 8 – 16 – (10) +1(8th) (17) Wis 8 – 10 – (2) Cha 8 – 10 – (2) Does this seem alright? Suggestions please :) Then I was thinking of either taking Human, or Gray Elf. With gray elf my stats get like this: Str 10 (12-2) Dex 18 (16+2) Con 10 (12-2) Int 19 (17+2) Wis 10 Cha 10 Would this be good, or am I focusing on Int/Dex too much now? -again suggestions (I don't want any other race than Human or Elf-type though, I find halflings and gnomes and such lame, RP-wise.) Finally the equipment; 48187 gold (yea weird number :p) Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000) Headband of Intellect +2 (4000) Lens of Detection (3500) Goggles of Night (8000) +2 Blended Quartz, Muffling, Silent moves, Shadow Chain shirt (14200) Cloak of resistance + 2 (4000) Boots of Springing/Striding (5500) Wand of Scorching Ray (4500) Masterwork thieves’ tools (100) Total: 47800 Left: 387 Gold Is there anything truely important I forgot? Anything unneeded? Just give any suggestions, again ^_^ Thanks in advance.
Prism 01-04-04, 07:18 AM	Both elf and human work well here. Its your call on if you really need the extra feat really Don't forget your free wizard feat at level 5 either. Maybe consider craft wonderous item here. Spellcasting prodigy is due to be changed to remove the DC bonus and only grant the stat bonus in relation to extra spells. This will be in Players Guide to Faerun. Still useful but not as so. Energy substitution is good for your other spare feat All said it looks pretty good
JoostBuijs 01-04-04, 07:34 AM	Energy Substitution is the feat that can make fire into cold spells and such? Edit: I found it yes, what type of energy should I use? edit#2: Just noticed goggles of night are 12000 now instead of 8000, that's bad :(
Snow Savant 01-04-04, 04:40 PM	Joost, Looks good. :) I like your race as a Grey Elf. And with the upcoming revision to Spellcasting Prodigy, you really don't need it. To echo Prism, CWI and Energy Sub are worth adding to your build as well. I would move Quicken Spell to be taken at a later date. The level you are taking it at (9th - and 6th level spellcaster) ... well, you can only cast 3rd level spells so it's not useful to you at that level. A viable alternative to Goggles of Night is the Blindfold of True Darkness, located in the A&EG book. While wearing that (gives you Blindsight 60'), lay down some spells that cloud normal vision *and* darkvision ... and you'll be laying down some serious sneak attack smack while lounging around in the pitch black fogs. :b: At no hindrance to yourself. And with no penalty to your SA. Also, regarding your stat point allocation, some AT's don't mind having a STR bonus. So experiment with your stats by giving yourself a 7, 8, or 9 STR. You'll be starting at level 11 (Wiz8), so Polymorph will no doubt be one of your 1st spells chosen. So your STR & DEX will be changed to that of your new form anyway. XO, Snow :)
JoostBuijs 01-04-04, 05:07 PM	That blindfold is weird, somehow comes over to me as overpowered, maybe I am missing something though. (will take it anyway mjehehehe.) Strenght is not about the to-hit or damage, but I just hate being over my light load :D Is there anything/way to solve this problem? And how important is polymorph? and which are good creatures/monsters for ATs. Thanks for the advice so far :D
Kenkai 01-04-04, 05:33 PM	Choker? oh wait, thats shapechange... switch extend spell and quicken spell. at least you can get a use out of extend spell, you can't really do anythign with quicken spell until you can use level 5 spells. energy substitution: sonic, is the best (although some people think its "cheezy", damn i hate that word). few monsters are resistant to sonic damage.
JoostBuijs 01-04-04, 05:38 PM	I don't care about cheesy-ness as long as it is within realism. (I'm dutch after all! ^_^)
JoostBuijs 01-05-04, 06:12 AM	After all the changes, this is how it is now stated: Rogue 3 / Wizard 7 / Arcane Trickster 10 Removed Spellcasting Prodigy and switched Extend/Quicken spell in the level progress. Added C.W.I. as Wizard LvL 5 bonus feat. 01: Rog 1 - Improved Initiative 02: Rog 1 / Wiz 1 03: Rog 1 / Wiz 2 - Silent Spell 04: Rog 1 / Wiz 3 05: Rog 2 / Wiz 3 06: Rog 2 / Wiz 4 - Energy Substitution[Sonic] 07: Rog 2 / Wiz 5 - Craft Wonderous Items 08: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 09: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 1 - Extend Spell 10: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 2 11: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 3 12: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 4 - Quicken Spell 13: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 5 14: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 6 15: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 7 - Persistant Spell 16: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 8 17: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 9 18: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 10 - Feat 19: Rog 3 / Wiz 6 / AT 10 20: Rog 3 / Wiz 7 / AT 10 Point Buy System(30) Changed the str to 10, Cha to 12 Str 8 – 10 – (2) Dex 8 – 15 – (8) +1(4th) (16) Con 8 – 12 – (4) Int 8 – 16 – (10) +1(8th) (17) Wis 8 – 10 – (2) Cha 8 – 12 – (4) Race: Gray Elf Str 8 (10-2) Dex 18 (16+2) Con 10 (12-2) Int 19 (17+2) Wis 10 Cha 12 Equipment; 48187 Added Bag of Holding, Goggles of Night are replaced with Blindfold of True Darkness and the armor (that ended up to be 50 lb.) has been replaced with a Nightscale from the Underdark book.(Edit#1: Changed it to a Mithral Shirt.) Finally I removed the wand. Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000) --- _ Headband of Intellect +2 (4000) --- _ Lens of Detection (3500) --- 1 lb. Blindfold of True Darkness (9000) --- _ Cloak of Resistance + 2 (4000) --- 1 lb. Boots of Springing/Striding (5500) --- 1 lb. +1 Twilight Silent moves, Muffling, Shadow Mithral Shirt (13650) --- 10 lb. Bag of Holding Type 1 (2500) --- 15 lb. - with basic adventure stuff Masterwork thieves’ tools (100) --- 2 lb. Total Lbs: 30 Gold Left: 1937 I am now also busy making a spell list, which I will post later. (Edit#2: This part gets irrelevant with the Mithral Chain.) Then one question; Would your DM allow that armor? It's from the underdark book, but Elven Leafweave. The campaign I play is situated in the underdark at all times though and seeing my race is elf (yes dangerous! :P) it might work. (My DM will not even look at it probably, but I am just interested; I know my DM is really easy on the Roleplay/Flavor part.)
Prism 01-05-04, 06:43 AM	Originally posted by JoostBuijs Then one question; Would your DM allow that armor? It's from the underdark book, but Elven Leafweave. The campaign I play is situated in the underdark at all times though and seeing my race is elf (yes dangerous! :P) it might work. (My DM will not even look at it probably, but I am just interested; I know my DM is really easy on the Roleplay/Flavor part.) Hmm. I wouldn't allow two different armour materials to be combined like that. Leafweave and nightscale are both varients of leather. If you want to wear armour then how about +1 twilight mithril chain which gives 0% arcane failure and is fairly elvish Rest of it looks good
JoostBuijs 01-05-04, 08:35 AM	Where can I find Twilight? And yes I want armor becuase of the Shadow/Silent moves stuff. :)
Prism 01-05-04, 09:21 AM	Sorry, forgot to mention. Book of Exalted Deeds. Its a +1 cost for a -10% Arcane failure
JoostBuijs 01-05-04, 09:40 AM	Alright thanks, that makes my AC +5 from that armor and +5 from Dex :D I also added it to the post above, the spell list is hard for me though :( Might post it tonight if I am not too busy with other stuff hehe.
the shaderaven 01-05-04, 01:08 PM	Just a thought: has anyone considered using a prestige class that gives +1d6 sneak attack at first level to get the Arcane Trickster with only one level in the rogue class? Or is it not worth the effort. Guild thief (FRCS), Master Spy (S&S) and Assassin (DMG) first come into my mind although there might be more front loaded classes to acomplish this.
Psifon 01-05-04, 01:11 PM	A belated thanks for your reply Snow. BTW, where did you see that Spellcasting Prodigy was changing?
Boondoggle 01-05-04, 04:14 PM	Shaderaven, the 2nd level of rogue is a worthwhile investment if only for evasion. The skills are just gravy. ATs have a very good reflex save and low HP, so evasion probably will be a life saver.
JoostBuijs 01-05-04, 05:36 PM	The spells are truely hard on me =\ I have not much of an idea what I want really, but these spells seemed cool to me; which ones should I definatly take and are there any important spells I forgot? (-and which of this list would you drop out fastest) 1st Level Obscuring Mist Identify True Strike Sleep Burning Hands Magic Missile Shocking Grasp Disguise Self Chill Touch Ray of Enfeeblement Expeditious Retreat Lesser orbs 2nd Level Fog Cloud Glitterdust Melfs Acid Arrow Web See Invisibility Darkness Scorching Ray Invisibility Spectral Hand Alter Self Bull’s Strenght Cat’s Grace Darkvision Spider Climb Flame Dagger 3rd Level Dispel magic Sleet Storm Stinking Cloud Clairaudience/Clairvoyance Daylight Fireball Lightning Bolt Displacement Invisibility Sphere Vampiric Touch Blink Flame arrow Fly Haste 4th Level Dimension Door Evard’s Black tentacles Solid Fog Arcane Eye Invisibilty, Greater Enervation Polymorph self Stone Shape Thunderlance Orbs
Funny Slaughter 01-05-04, 05:56 PM	darkness/blindsight is one of the best combos ever. (newest in underdark) and dont forget about improved blink, either. (UE) gs Funny
JoostBuijs 01-05-04, 06:05 PM	I got the Blindfold item .. :D (60 ft blindsight all the time for 9000?)
Snow Savant 01-05-04, 07:13 PM	Psifon = I've heard 2 separate reliable WotC sources mention that Spellcasting Prodigy will change in the upcoming 3.5 revised FRCS manual. Joost = 3 questions for you before I offer spell recommendations. 1. What level are you starting your character at? And do the math if you can, to tell me how many spells you are starting off with as "known" spells per level. 2. What does your party look like? Numbers, roles, cohorts, etc. 3. What style of campaign play does your DM like to run? Monster-killing underground adventuring? Urban, political intrigue, and lots of social interplay? ** All these issues are important, since an AT can be played so many different ways. And it will make a *HUGE* impact on your spell selection. XO, Snow :)
rilemathome 01-05-04, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant Psifon = I've heard 2 separate reliable WotC sources mention that Spellcasting Prodigy will change in the upcoming 3.5 revised FRCS manual. I've seen this as well; I think one of the sources was Rich Baker's Q&A thread on the boards. I still like the feat for AT's, as they benefit from extra low-level slots (particularly early on) and can excel by choosing no-save spells.
JoostBuijs 01-06-04, 03:14 AM	1. What level are you starting your character at? And do the math if you can, to tell me how many spells you are starting off with as "known" spells per level. Character level 11, Spell caster wizard level 8, I can't do the math honestly, I will have to read upon that part later. :D (-I am the ultimate wizard noob.) 2. What does your party look like? Numbers, roles, cohorts, etc. 4 Party Members; 1 Sorc or wizard (not sure) doing the regular sorc/wiz stuff I assume. 1 Cleric (Uses animate dead) 1 TWF Ranger/Fighter type And me (I have to fill rogue part) 3. What style of campaign play does your DM like to run? Monster-killing underground adventuring? Urban, political intrigue, and lots of social interplay? Normally I would say Monster-killing/Urban-ish, but now we play City of the Spiderqueen book, I know it is underdark mainly, though I do not want to know too much about it in advance. (that would ruin the fun.) That's all I can say right now, if you need to know things more specific, I can post it later, as now I have to go to college :P
Snow Savant 01-06-04, 01:07 PM	Okay, in light of your criteria, this might be a nice starting array of "spells known". Which ones you wish to cast and how many per day is up to you, but at least this should cover the base contingencies for you while adventuring in the Underdark. I threw out a ballpark number for your 1st level spells known. Obviously, you'll pick up more as you find spellbooks, advance levels, etc. Also, I won't spoil for you the contents of the CotSQ adventure you are going through, but I will also make sure this list works well the dangerous denizens and hazards you will be facing. :smirk: I hope you have fun, the CotSQ is one of my favorite adventures! Cantrips = *ALL* Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, & Ghost Sound are your staple spells here. The 1st 2 are awesome with Sneak Attack. The latter for your sneaky scout and rogue obfuscation activities. 1st = [6] … Silent Image , Obscuring Mists [CONJ], Mage Armor [CONJ], Shield [ABJ], Prot. From Evil [ABJ], Enlarge Person [TRA] [i]Use Silent Image for defense, offense, or time stalling. Use it to create pitch blackness in its AoE. Give your party code words so they know the zone of "true" darkness is your Silent Image. Ergo, your foes are blind, and you & your party are not. Enlarge Person is there to buff your Ranger. Obscuring Mist works wonders with your Blindfold of True Darkness. 2nd = [4] … Melf's Acid Arrow [CONJ], Scorching Ray [EVO], Glitterdust [CONJ], Knock [TRA] MAA & S-Ray are your standard kill spells. You'll be using these even at 20th level. Glitterdust both reveals invisible creatures and blinds foes in general. Then sneak attack them! Knock for pesty devices/doors you can't disable/open. You could replace this with Shatter if you so desire. 3rd = [4] ... Dispel Magic [ABJ], Blink [TRA], Fly [TRA], Clairvoyance [DIV] Utility spells here. Clairvoyance to assist you in your scouting role. 4th = [4] ... Evard's Black Tentacles [CONJ], Polymorph [TRA], Greater Invisibility , Dimension Door [CONJ] [i]EBT will be your favorite spell in the whole bunch. Just flat out strong for any caster. A kill spell and it buys you time to buff as well. Polymorph into a creature with sky-high DEX and CON. STR is a tertiary concern. DD gets you out of grapples or moves you where you need to go. Always helpful. *** Your 1st two 5th level spells chosen should be Telekinesis & Summon Monster V. Summon Monster V?! Seems sub-optimal, yes? Not when you see the difficulties you'll be facing in the CotSQ. Use it to summon a stealthy scout, a grappler, cannon fodder for a trap, or a flanking partner. Great to use versus creatures with lots of magic resistances. I like the Hound Archon (teleport & reduce person trick), Fiendish Dire Ape (Rend!), Medium Earth Elemental, & Celestial Brown Bear (grappler!). Now, if you have access to other books, just name them. I can revise this list above to include other great spells for an AT. Also note, this selection was made assuming a standard Sorc/Wiz selection of spells with your party's primary mage. Meaning, I'm sure he will be blasting away with Magic Missile, Fireball, and what-not. XO, Snow :)
JoostBuijs 01-06-04, 01:28 PM	Thanks, seems great so far :D I'm not a big fan of monster summoning though, what other spell can I consider? And then, I got access to most books, exept Silver Marshes, Draconomicon and Miniatures handbook. (might forget one or two books here) So, if you see any spells that can be replaced with better ones from other books, that's no problem. (please do post which book it comes from ;) ) *Copies most other users by adding a typical end of post message.*
helicopter 01-06-04, 02:47 PM	Snow's spells look really good. i think ill steal them for my next trickster.;) hey, why are there no charm person or monster spells? those are good spells for a sneaky crafty trickster. althow i dont know if those are good spells for city of the spider queen. i guess drow would be bad targets for charm spells (shrug). maybe thats why she chose summon monster 5. at least you dont have to deal with the drow and their annoying SR. just pound on them with a fatty!
Snow Savant 01-06-04, 06:58 PM	Helicopter said: hey, why are there no charm person or monster spells? those are good spells for a sneaky crafty trickster. althow i dont know if those are good spells for city of the spider queen. i guess drow would be bad targets for charm spells (shrug). maybe thats why she chose summon monster 5. at least you dont have to deal with the drow and their annoying SR. just pound on them with a fatty! Charm Monster is a definite for most AT builds. I love to cast Silent Spelled Charm Monster while hiding or under Greater Invisibility and in front-of-the-party solo scout mode. I did not recommend it for Joost because of the spell being suboptimal vs. Drow and Undead. Joost, I'll get you some more spell alternative later on. You have any idea what kind of spells your party's other primary spellcaster is casting? It's bad to duplicate, good to cover each other's weak casting areas. Especially important to know who is covering the party buffs for the melee guys (the Ranger and Cleric I presume). *Somebody* needs to buff them. And it may have to be you. :( XO, Snow :cloud9:
JoostBuijs 01-07-04, 05:15 AM	I have no idea honestly, I believe at least magic missile, fireball, haste and the liking. .. Not sure about what buff spells though, besides the haste. What buff spells would you suggest? -Maybe I can make a decision, or let my party members/DM take a look at what they would find most usefull... the buff spell list, or the list that allows me to do my job better :P I think my part will mainly be the scout bit, being invisibile, flying about, silent spells etc. and at that, also do cool damage from sneaking position ofcourse.
Raene Jagad 01-07-04, 07:58 AM	A fascinating thread from a different perspective. Snow, do you mind if I PM you for some advice on re-designing one of the NPC's in COTSQ as I am updating the entire campaign for 3.5 and have never run a high level sorceror in my life! I don't want to post here as I don't want to give JoostBuijs any advanced knowledge of the badguys by posting details here. ;) (Edit: Yup I know the thread is about AT's but your particularly knowledge of the campaign would be invaluable!)
Funny Slaughter 01-07-04, 10:28 AM	Snow, do you mind if I PM you how cool is this? asking in the public if you can PM somebody? anyhow, good luck with you letting snow redesign your NPCs ;) gs Funny
JoostBuijs 01-07-04, 10:46 AM	how cool is this? asking in the public if you can PM somebody? I think it's cooler if you PM someone, asking if you can reply to a public post.
Snow Savant 01-07-04, 12:19 PM	Joost said: I have no idea honestly, I believe at least magic missile, fireball, haste and the liking. .. Not sure about what buff spells though, besides the haste. What buff spells would you suggest? -Maybe I can make a decision, or let my party members/DM take a look at what they would find most usefull... the buff spell list, or the list that allows me to do my job better Regarding buff spells for your party, this is something you, your party cleric, and your other party mage needs to get together and talk about. Between the 3 of you, perhaps you should split up some of the standard buff spells (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Enlarge Person, etc.). Or, perhaps one of you will take it on your shoulders to provide most of them. You definitely also do not want to take spells that are redundant with your party's magic item stat boosters. I would not accept any advice from outside sources on which buff spells you need. A quick 5-10 minute discussion amongst your party would be wise here ... or via e-mail. Buff spells are important, especially to make your tank characters more than just glorified bodyguards. *** Okay, you don't like SM V as 1 of your 2 5th level spells for next level. That's ok. Take Wall of Stone instead. It's a great spell for where you will be heading in the CotSQ. It's a "save-or-die" kill spell (hemisphere or box), an instant bridge across chasms, a battlefield control spell (create kill zones), and a great way to ensure a safe escape for when you need to tactically withdraw (heh ... retreat!). I'll get you more spells later, as I promised. Have not been home yet to get my books. XO, Snow :cloud9: P.S. Raene, sure .. you can PM me, or preferably, post a new thread so that me and other interested parties can help you rebuild your Sorc. Lots of Sorc experts in this forum...
JoostBuijs 01-07-04, 01:18 PM	Alright, that's much cooler, the stone wall :D Edit#1: How is it a save-or-die spell? I cant seem to find that. Thanks again. If I can find out more about the buff spells I will tell so.
Namarus 01-09-04, 12:47 PM	While finding the posts in this thread generally extremely informative, and the builds rather helpful. I noticed that there are two important feats that have not been included in Arcane Trickster's build. Point Blank Shot Precise Shot From my reading of the rules, and I am a newbie, I notice that using ranged attacks while your party are in melee would subject you to a penalty to hit. Unless of course your character has the above two feats. Is there any particular reason why you chaps have omitted it? Some rule somewhere which states that it is not needed for spells?
Prism 01-09-04, 01:21 PM	Originally posted by Namarus Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Is there any particular reason why you chaps have omitted it? Some rule somewhere which states that it is not needed for spells? For my own AT I have taken these two feats for exactly the reasons you suggested however the reason that not everybody takes them is that ranged touch attacks are pretty easy to hit with. Most opponents have low touch AC's and your trickster will have a pretty decent ranged attack bonus assuming they have a high dex without these feats. Plus, you can often aim at someone out of combat unless you are fighting just 1 or 2 opponents Spending two feats on combat related abilities means you are missing two metamagic or item creation feats somewhere.
Snow Savant 01-09-04, 01:38 PM	The 2 archery feats are viable AT options, Namarus. In addition, many AT's use a bow at early levels (boosted by low-level spells like Cat's Grace, etc.) to compensate for their low quantities of spells. Although I agree with Prism. A good AT also needs to be strong at battlefield movement and positioning. You won't need those 2 feats at a certain juncture point in your build. Especially when you are flying or using spider climb, since you will have expanded angle options when attacking your foes in a more 3-dimensional environment. AT's are not like traditional archers or magi, who sit in the back ranks of the party formation and blast away. AT's are often "point-men" or the party scout. So they are in often in front of the party in certain situations as well. Especially since they can be invisible/hidden which helps out there survivability and intel-gathering missions in such roles. I can often get my AT behind party lines without a lot of problems. And in such a scenario, I find I am firing Rays of Frost at my foes backsides. Again, Precise Shot would be a waste in such a situation. The 2 feats aren't bad, but I don't consider them essential. All AT's are different and have varying M.O.'s. A friend of mine is playing a 12th level AT with Sp. Focus & GSF in Conj & Trans spells (not a strong build, but oh well). I recommended to him to cast the Baleful Transposition spell a lot (from the MH book). It's an awesome spell to place a foe right smack-dab next to your party's tank (who should destroy him with a full-attack option), while dropping you behind enemy lines to get a clear LoS at your foe's backs. Ridding himself of the need to get Precise Shot. XO, Snow :cloud9:
SoulLord 01-09-04, 01:56 PM	also there are some feats usually not taken how many times have you seen a wizard take improved critical[ray] :) at 20th level a good disintegrate could deal (for the AT) (34d6 * 2) + 7d6 = 68+7 = 75d6 damage :) of course you would have to be level 18th to take it and after all its only a 10% chance on any given ray but its still fun :) on a related question what are the best shapes for an AT? alter self polymorph self shapechange SoulLord
Snow Savant 01-09-04, 02:12 PM	SoulLord said:on a related question what are the best shapes for an AT? ... alter self polymorph self shapechange Well, I have no books on me to research, but these are my current faves: 1. Alter Self = Troglodyte or Phaerlock (Underdark book) for the high Natural AC for both. Trog has amazing racial Hide skill, +8 underground from what I recall. 2. Polymorph Self = Gotta be Medium size in 3.5 due to equipment sizing issues. Green Hag is hard to beat for the Natural AC and stats for those wishing to enter melee. I wrote down a list for Psifon the other day - Lith, Rhek, Vine Horror, Oread, Shrieking Hag, Legendary Ape, etc. are all good. Depending on which order of importance you like STR, DEX, & CON. Most other traits like movement and Natural AC are all very similar. Go * here * (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2270931#post2270931) and read my post for more info. on those forms. 3. Shapechange = I :love: the Immoth form. All my spells as Ice Runes, i.e. FREE ACTIONS ... what's not to love about the Immoth? XO, Snow :cloud9:
creepy drifter 01-09-04, 06:26 PM	(jots down the good polymorph forms to take) thanks! i agree about the mage of arcane order . you have too many jobs to do as a trickster and never enuff spell levels even as a sorceror trickster. spell pool can pull out of your hat the right spell at right time.
Diabolic Doppelganger 01-09-04, 11:13 PM	I was wondering about the feat Improved Sneak Attack (Sword and Sorcery), why is it not seen in any builds? Is there some rule against it or something?
JoostBuijs 01-22-04, 08:13 PM	!BUMP! .. Why? This sunday I will play the first game, I want some final comments/advices before I finally go sheet this bastard. ;) Books I can use: Practically all, exept Miniatures Handbook, Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes and Silver Marshes. Houseruling: 3.0 Haste! :D Gray Elf Rogue 3 / Wizard 7 / Arcane Trickster 10 Currently LvL 11 01: Rog 1 - Improved Initiative 02: Rog 1 / Wiz 1 03: Rog 1 / Wiz 2 - Silent Spell 04: Rog 1 / Wiz 3 05: Rog 2 / Wiz 3 06: Rog 2 / Wiz 4 - Energy Substitution[Sonic] 07: Rog 2 / Wiz 5 - Craft Wonderous Items 08: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 09: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 1 - Extend Spell 10: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 2 11: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 3 12: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 4 - Feat 13: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 5 14: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 6 15: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 7 - Quicken Spell 16: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 8 17: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 9 18: Rog 3 / Wiz 5 / AT 10 - Feat 19: Rog 3 / Wiz 6 / AT 10 20: Rog 3 / Wiz 7 / AT 10 Question: Which two Feats? Pointbuy(30) After racial mod and both LvL 4 + LvL 8 mods Str 8 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 19 Wis 10 Cha 12 Equipment; 48187 Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000) --- _ Headband of Intellect +2 (4000) --- _ Lens of Detection (3500) --- 1 lb. Blindfold of True Darkness (9000) --- _ Cloak of Resistance + 2 (4000) --- 1 lb. Boots of Springing/Striding (5500) --- 1 lb. +1 Twilight Silent moves, Muffling, Shadow Mithral Shirt (13650) --- 10 lb. Bag of Holding Type 1 (2500) --- 15 lb. - with basic adventure stuff Masterwork thieves’ tools (100) --- 2 lb. Total Lbs: 30 Gold Left: 1937 Spell List By Snow, thank you! Cantrips = *ALL* 1st = [6] … Silent Image [ILL], Obscuring Mists [CONJ], Mage Armor [CONJ], Shield [ABJ], Prot. From Evil [ABJ], Enlarge Person [TRA] 2nd = [4] … Melf's Acid Arrow [CONJ], Scorching Ray [EVO], Glitterdust [CONJ], Knock [TRA] 3rd = [4] ... Dispel Magic [ABJ], Blink [TRA], Fly [TRA], Clairvoyance [DIV] 4th = [4] ... Evard's Black Tentacles [CONJ], Polymorph [TRA], Greater Invisibility [ILL], Dimension Door [CONJ] Questions: 1) Should I use the 3.0 haste in here? 2) What other spells can you think of, using books outside PHB? Skills Any advice on wich ones I should max out and why is appriciated. I myself was thinking: Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Open Lock, Search and Spellcraft. That's it then, thank you all in advance!
JoostBuijs 01-24-04, 12:42 PM	One last ..... :bump: Before tomorrow :)
Snow Savant 01-24-04, 01:18 PM	Hey Joost, Looks good so far. Get yourself a Wand of "Cantrip Ray" (Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, etc.) to ensure you never, ever run out of instant-offense. They are cheapo-cheap. For additional feats, you may want to take some higher level spells that are of the "No Save/Yes SR" variety for combat variation ... ergo, you could take Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. ** Another option for you.... Level 19 and 20? Take Cooperative Spell as your 18th level feat. Go into Mage of the Arcane Order in levels 19 and 20 (regaining your wasted feat at 20th level). You now have Spell Pool I for your 1st-3rd levels. Spell Pool has been a godsend for my AT. Any utility spell you can think of is at your fingertips ... to help you being a Rogue, Wizard, Archer, Scout, etc. It's better than taking 2 dead levels in Wizard (well, unless you want a better Familiar). Down the road, you should craft a wondrous item of a Quickened Obscuring Mist (level 5 spell) castable 3/day. The cost is worth it, and it will save your skin or allow mass sneak attack damage insanity depending upon its use. ** Otherwise, think seriously of comparing Knock to Shatter for your 2nd level spell selection. Shatter can perform many functions of Knock ... in addition to other things mentioned in my Weak/Weird Spell thread (Part I). Good luck ... and have fun! Snow :cloud9:
JoostBuijs 01-24-04, 05:18 PM	Alright .. thank you all for your help .. it seems solid then. :D Now let's hope I live longer than one day!
GrolubFranco 03-24-04, 08:36 PM	I was thinking about the 2 feats (PBS and Precise Shot)... Meaning any ranged touch attack no armor is applied and if the creature is negated the dextery for every creature the ac is 10 right? If the creature is in melee it would be 14 to hit with a dex of +5 and a BAB of +2 I would have to roll 7 or above it´s a 70% to hit. Am I right?