Arcane Trickster [maximized ranged touch sneak attack] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster [maximized ranged touch sneak attack] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arismir
02-15-05, 10:24 PM Alright this is going to be my build for my next campaign.

It's a Gnome Rogue3, Wizard5, Arcane Tricksterx.

The basic premise is to use Dual Wands from Complete Arcane to deal sneak attack on top of ranged touch attacks. This requires several feats, which include Two Weapon Fighting, Craft Wand, Double Wand Wielder. Other feats that could help would be Point Blank Shot, any Metamagic, and any of the Artisan feats from the ECS [If concerned with saving gold and exp].

Skillwise, there is a slight crack. Arcane Trickster requires 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist. With only 3 levels of Rogue, I'd have to cross-class one point of each, limiting my skills at the expense of levels. I think that getting Arcane Trickster a level sooner would be worth the cross-classing.

Now for the beautful part. This class adds sneak attack damage to any ranged touch attacks on my wands. Thus, a simple wand of ray of frost for 187 gp would deal a d3 of damage and xd6 of sneak attack that takes the form of cold damage. So theoretically at level 12, I'd deal a d3 plus 4d6 [21] damage with each wand.

But, if I have money to spare to buy two wands of lvl 11 scorching ray for 16500 each [base price], those numbers increase drastically. Each ray of frost would fire 3 rays for 4d6 each. Each ray would receive an extra 4d6 sneak attack damage [under proper circumstances] that would take the form of fire damage. Thus with two wands I'd deal 2 x 3 rays for 4d6 fire + 4d6 sneak attack fire each. This all adds up to an average of 168 damage without any other bonuses [such as PBS] at level 12 for only 3 charges.

Saying that so much of the build is dependant on sneak attack, I'd use my wizard spells to load up on things such as Blink and Improved Invisibility. I'd leave most of the heavy damage to my wands and sneak attack and all my enchantments and buffers to my spells per day.

So that's all I have for now. I'd really appreciate any ideas or advice on the build. i.e. Good spells for wands, good spells to aid with sneak attack, good feats, etc.

Thanks,
paradoxmage
02-15-05, 11:22 PM Complete Adventurer provides some very good spells for a rogue.

1) Sniper's Shot alows ranged sneak attack at any distance (and is a swift action to cast, but only lasts 1 round)
or
2) Sniper's Eye alows ranged sneak attacks at a 60 foot range (plus gives a few other things and lasts 1 round per level, but only for assasins)

3) Critical Strike spell adds some good bonus's for melee sneak attacks (an extra 1d6, your weapon crit range is doubled, and a +4 to confirm crits)

4) Golem Strike alows you to SA golems (IMO a very overpowered spell)

5) Distract Assailant is a swift action and makes someone flat footed for 1 round.

6) Nightstalkers Transformation is absolutely amazing (+4 dex, +3 luck to AC, +5 luck to Ref save, +3d6 sneak attack and evasion)
MattHawk
02-15-05, 11:24 PM Been playing one of these for a couple weeks :) Slightly more tweaked build using some Unearthed Arcana stuff (Spellcaster generic base class lets you get SA as a sorc), but similar concept - dual wand sneak attack. Kind of a gunslinger feel. It was fun seeing the look on my DM's face when I did 4d6+2d3 with a couple quick-drawn wands of Acid Splash :)

Remember, higher level wands are expensive, you won't want to use them much even with the craft and Magical Artisan feats (both of which my character has and are quite useful). Energy substitution feats are also nice, as you can use them with the wands and have several elements available. Quick draw is good to get the wands out (and, depending on your DM, put them back away). Remember you need a hand free for casting, so if you have a wand in both hands you can't cast a regular spell.

You've got the mechanics on Scorching Ray a bit wrong - it's a volley, so only one of the rays would get SA damage.

Good spells for the wands are Acid Splash, for inexpensiveness and bypassing SR (the SR part makes it superior to Ray of Frost for this application), Ray of Enfeeblement, for both Str and SA damage (it deals negative energy HP damage with the SA), and Scorching Ray is still quite good even without the multiple SAs in the volley, though you'd likely want to do it at the minimum caster level due to the volley limitation.
Dishliquid
02-15-05, 11:46 PM What about a wand of magic missile? Would you get a SA for each magic missile?
Blade2718
02-16-05, 12:14 AM 4) Golem Strike alows you to SA golems (IMO a very overpowered spell)Then what's your take on the spell grave strike, which lets you sneak attack undead?
cheesegrater
02-16-05, 11:26 AM What about a wand of magic missile? Would you get a SA for each magic missile?

No. You only get sneak attack on spells that have an attack roll.
Sargh
02-16-05, 12:31 PM "Skillwise, there is a slight crack. Arcane Trickster requires 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist. With only 3 levels of Rogue, I'd have to cross-class one point of each, limiting my skills at the expense of levels. I think that getting Arcane Trickster a level sooner would be worth the cross-classing."

Load up on them at rog 1, 4 each and top them off with a rog level at the end that catches up. No need to crossclass as long as you take rog the lvl before entering the class.
Caelic
02-16-05, 03:26 PM One correction: you would only get sneak attack on one of the scorching rays.
Arismir
02-16-05, 03:46 PM Thanks Everyone!

So saying that Scorching Ray fell through on the massive SA damage, is there any way to achieve more than two sneak attack bonuses per round (one from each wand)?

Also, what about feats?
MattHawk
02-16-05, 05:01 PM Twin Spell does it. You can get 4 sneak attacks with Twinned Acid Splash wands that way; or two SAs with a twinned normally cast spell. Expensive though, since it's a +4 adjustment on spell level.

Silent Spell is good for ATs, because you'll get most of your SAs from Greater Invisibility and they'll be able to hear you cast otherwise. Able Learner is a good way to make acquiring skills easier, though you can make do without it (and AT itself has the most important skills, making it a bit of a waste later in the build). Practiced Spellcaster is good for getting your spell damage up a bit. If you're willing to do Exalted, Nymph's Kiss nets you an extra skill point per level. Improved Initiative is always nice - being able to get up Greater Invis before the other guy can hit you often means the difference between life and death. Twin Spell for the above multiple SA trick. Some of the ranged combat feats could help - ATs tend to use a lot of rays, which can be hard to fire into melee without the help. If you have enough downtime, Craft Contingent Spell and Craft Wondrous Item are nice feats to have just in general. Fell Drain can be fun if you have a more evil side :)
Arismir
02-16-05, 05:05 PM MattHawk, what book is Twin Spell in?

Well actually, could you write up a summary of what it does? Prereqs, bonuses, etc.

Thanks!
MattHawk
02-16-05, 05:07 PM It's in Complete Arcane. Can't be to thorough because it's not open content, but it basically allows you to fire off two of the same spell simultaneously - since it's technically not a volley like the multiple rays from Scorching Ray but rather equivalent to multiple castings, each one gets SA.
Arismir
02-16-05, 05:16 PM Is it a full round action to do so? And could I apply it to my wands [raising the effective spell level as any meta-magic feat]?
MattHawk
02-16-05, 05:28 PM Is it a full round action to do so? And could I apply it to my wands [raising the effective spell level as any meta-magic feat]?

It's a standard Metamagic feat - a wand could be built with it, and if you're a Sorc it's full round, Wiz has to prepare it ahead of time.
Arconz
02-16-05, 06:00 PM Have you considered going spellthief it has the sneak attack figured I'd throw it out.
Timespike
02-16-05, 06:34 PM Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 4/Arcane Trickster 10 seems a good way to go. More caster levels, more sneak attack, higher BAB, more skill points...

Go whisper gnome instead of gnome and that should do it.
Arismir
02-17-05, 04:06 PM Thanks Matthawk.

Arconz, I'm not a big fan of the spell thief idea, because the spell progression is so slow.

Timespike, I like all the benefits you listed but I don't have CAd so I can't really check out what Daggerspell Mage has to offer and how it would help out the build. So if you want, feel free to post some of the highlights of a Daggerspell Mage.

Thanks everyone.

-Bump-
Arismir
02-17-05, 10:16 PM Matthawk,

I was thinking about the Twin Spelled Wands. I'm assuming that Twin Spell raises a spell's level by at least +4. Thus, I could only use level 0 spells, because wands can only be crafted from level 4 spells and lower. A level 4 spell would have a minimal caster level of 7, and that would mean that a Twin Spelled Wand of Ray of Frost would cost 21000 gp. Doesn't that seem like a hefty amount for 2d3 of damage? And this is all if Twin Spell only has a CL of +4.

So, is there any way that is cheaper?
carnivore
02-17-05, 10:29 PM yes........use Caelics Ninjaficer ;)
Arismir
02-17-05, 10:48 PM What is that?
MattHawk
02-18-05, 01:05 PM It is expensive; the only purpose is getting crazy SA dice (my UA-based build got 15d6 sneak attack, making it much more effective then a standard trickster build). The feat Magical Artisan is a good one to reduce costs by a quarter. Also, when crafting, you only pay half the base price. Overall, it's not something you'd want to use frequently, it's more of a last resort weapon - you'd be using Wands of [element or force] Orb, Wands of Ray of Enfeeblement (only in one hand though, since it doesn't stack), and Wands of Acid Splash most of the time, and only pull out the big ones in an emergency.

What Carnivore is referring to is using the Artificer class, with that being a specific artificer build. Arts get the ability to use metamagic with exisiting wands by burning extra charges. So that way, you could use cheap old 350gp wands of Acid Splash, and apply the twinning later by using multiple charges (since it's a +4 ability, I think that means you'd burn 4 addtl charges with each wand; could be 5, I don't remember for sure). Hence, you use about 35-45gp worth of charges from each wand each time you do the trick, as opposed to 400-800 gp per wand the traditional way.

Another good method of SA is using Alchemist's Fire - it's a ranged touch attack, so SA applies to it and you're going for the touch AC just like attack spells. Since you should already have Quick Draw and TWF, you can just start chucking those flasks at the opponent :) Grab rapid shot, and you'll be able to throw 3 a round early on, albeit with a -4 to all the attacks (the fact that it's touch AC somewhat makes up for things, though).
Pinky's brain
02-18-05, 01:36 PM Produce flame also lets you do iterative attacks, depending on the DM either spectral hand or reach spell combined with chill touch could work too.
Arismir
02-18-05, 10:14 PM Thanks alot MattHawk.

My big question now, is what level does an artificer gain access to being able to substitute charges for metamagic feats?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arismir 02-15-05, 10:24 PM	Alright this is going to be my build for my next campaign. It's a Gnome Rogue3, Wizard5, Arcane Tricksterx. The basic premise is to use Dual Wands from Complete Arcane to deal sneak attack on top of ranged touch attacks. This requires several feats, which include Two Weapon Fighting, Craft Wand, Double Wand Wielder. Other feats that could help would be Point Blank Shot, any Metamagic, and any of the Artisan feats from the ECS [If concerned with saving gold and exp]. Skillwise, there is a slight crack. Arcane Trickster requires 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist. With only 3 levels of Rogue, I'd have to cross-class one point of each, limiting my skills at the expense of levels. I think that getting Arcane Trickster a level sooner would be worth the cross-classing. Now for the beautful part. This class adds sneak attack damage to any ranged touch attacks on my wands. Thus, a simple wand of ray of frost for 187 gp would deal a d3 of damage and xd6 of sneak attack that takes the form of cold damage. So theoretically at level 12, I'd deal a d3 plus 4d6 [21] damage with each wand. But, if I have money to spare to buy two wands of lvl 11 scorching ray for 16500 each [base price], those numbers increase drastically. Each ray of frost would fire 3 rays for 4d6 each. Each ray would receive an extra 4d6 sneak attack damage [under proper circumstances] that would take the form of fire damage. Thus with two wands I'd deal 2 x 3 rays for 4d6 fire + 4d6 sneak attack fire each. This all adds up to an average of 168 damage without any other bonuses [such as PBS] at level 12 for only 3 charges. Saying that so much of the build is dependant on sneak attack, I'd use my wizard spells to load up on things such as Blink and Improved Invisibility. I'd leave most of the heavy damage to my wands and sneak attack and all my enchantments and buffers to my spells per day. So that's all I have for now. I'd really appreciate any ideas or advice on the build. i.e. Good spells for wands, good spells to aid with sneak attack, good feats, etc. Thanks,
paradoxmage 02-15-05, 11:22 PM	Complete Adventurer provides some very good spells for a rogue. 1) Sniper's Shot alows ranged sneak attack at any distance (and is a swift action to cast, but only lasts 1 round) or 2) Sniper's Eye alows ranged sneak attacks at a 60 foot range (plus gives a few other things and lasts 1 round per level, but only for assasins) 3) Critical Strike spell adds some good bonus's for melee sneak attacks (an extra 1d6, your weapon crit range is doubled, and a +4 to confirm crits) 4) Golem Strike alows you to SA golems (IMO a very overpowered spell) 5) Distract Assailant is a swift action and makes someone flat footed for 1 round. 6) Nightstalkers Transformation is absolutely amazing (+4 dex, +3 luck to AC, +5 luck to Ref save, +3d6 sneak attack and evasion)
MattHawk 02-15-05, 11:24 PM	Been playing one of these for a couple weeks :) Slightly more tweaked build using some Unearthed Arcana stuff (Spellcaster generic base class lets you get SA as a sorc), but similar concept - dual wand sneak attack. Kind of a gunslinger feel. It was fun seeing the look on my DM's face when I did 4d6+2d3 with a couple quick-drawn wands of Acid Splash :) Remember, higher level wands are expensive, you won't want to use them much even with the craft and Magical Artisan feats (both of which my character has and are quite useful). Energy substitution feats are also nice, as you can use them with the wands and have several elements available. Quick draw is good to get the wands out (and, depending on your DM, put them back away). Remember you need a hand free for casting, so if you have a wand in both hands you can't cast a regular spell. You've got the mechanics on Scorching Ray a bit wrong - it's a volley, so only one of the rays would get SA damage. Good spells for the wands are Acid Splash, for inexpensiveness and bypassing SR (the SR part makes it superior to Ray of Frost for this application), Ray of Enfeeblement, for both Str and SA damage (it deals negative energy HP damage with the SA), and Scorching Ray is still quite good even without the multiple SAs in the volley, though you'd likely want to do it at the minimum caster level due to the volley limitation.
Dishliquid 02-15-05, 11:46 PM	What about a wand of magic missile? Would you get a SA for each magic missile?
Blade2718 02-16-05, 12:14 AM	4) Golem Strike alows you to SA golems (IMO a very overpowered spell)Then what's your take on the spell grave strike, which lets you sneak attack undead?
cheesegrater 02-16-05, 11:26 AM	What about a wand of magic missile? Would you get a SA for each magic missile? No. You only get sneak attack on spells that have an attack roll.
Sargh 02-16-05, 12:31 PM	"Skillwise, there is a slight crack. Arcane Trickster requires 7 ranks of Disable Device and Escape Artist. With only 3 levels of Rogue, I'd have to cross-class one point of each, limiting my skills at the expense of levels. I think that getting Arcane Trickster a level sooner would be worth the cross-classing." Load up on them at rog 1, 4 each and top them off with a rog level at the end that catches up. No need to crossclass as long as you take rog the lvl before entering the class.
Caelic 02-16-05, 03:26 PM	One correction: you would only get sneak attack on one of the scorching rays.
Arismir 02-16-05, 03:46 PM	Thanks Everyone! So saying that Scorching Ray fell through on the massive SA damage, is there any way to achieve more than two sneak attack bonuses per round (one from each wand)? Also, what about feats?
MattHawk 02-16-05, 05:01 PM	Twin Spell does it. You can get 4 sneak attacks with Twinned Acid Splash wands that way; or two SAs with a twinned normally cast spell. Expensive though, since it's a +4 adjustment on spell level. Silent Spell is good for ATs, because you'll get most of your SAs from Greater Invisibility and they'll be able to hear you cast otherwise. Able Learner is a good way to make acquiring skills easier, though you can make do without it (and AT itself has the most important skills, making it a bit of a waste later in the build). Practiced Spellcaster is good for getting your spell damage up a bit. If you're willing to do Exalted, Nymph's Kiss nets you an extra skill point per level. Improved Initiative is always nice - being able to get up Greater Invis before the other guy can hit you often means the difference between life and death. Twin Spell for the above multiple SA trick. Some of the ranged combat feats could help - ATs tend to use a lot of rays, which can be hard to fire into melee without the help. If you have enough downtime, Craft Contingent Spell and Craft Wondrous Item are nice feats to have just in general. Fell Drain can be fun if you have a more evil side :)
Arismir 02-16-05, 05:05 PM	MattHawk, what book is Twin Spell in? Well actually, could you write up a summary of what it does? Prereqs, bonuses, etc. Thanks!
MattHawk 02-16-05, 05:07 PM	It's in Complete Arcane. Can't be to thorough because it's not open content, but it basically allows you to fire off two of the same spell simultaneously - since it's technically not a volley like the multiple rays from Scorching Ray but rather equivalent to multiple castings, each one gets SA.
Arismir 02-16-05, 05:16 PM	Is it a full round action to do so? And could I apply it to my wands [raising the effective spell level as any meta-magic feat]?
MattHawk 02-16-05, 05:28 PM	Is it a full round action to do so? And could I apply it to my wands [raising the effective spell level as any meta-magic feat]? It's a standard Metamagic feat - a wand could be built with it, and if you're a Sorc it's full round, Wiz has to prepare it ahead of time.
Arconz 02-16-05, 06:00 PM	Have you considered going spellthief it has the sneak attack figured I'd throw it out.
Timespike 02-16-05, 06:34 PM	Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 4/Arcane Trickster 10 seems a good way to go. More caster levels, more sneak attack, higher BAB, more skill points... Go whisper gnome instead of gnome and that should do it.
Arismir 02-17-05, 04:06 PM	Thanks Matthawk. Arconz, I'm not a big fan of the spell thief idea, because the spell progression is so slow. Timespike, I like all the benefits you listed but I don't have CAd so I can't really check out what Daggerspell Mage has to offer and how it would help out the build. So if you want, feel free to post some of the highlights of a Daggerspell Mage. Thanks everyone. -Bump-
Arismir 02-17-05, 10:16 PM	Matthawk, I was thinking about the Twin Spelled Wands. I'm assuming that Twin Spell raises a spell's level by at least +4. Thus, I could only use level 0 spells, because wands can only be crafted from level 4 spells and lower. A level 4 spell would have a minimal caster level of 7, and that would mean that a Twin Spelled Wand of Ray of Frost would cost 21000 gp. Doesn't that seem like a hefty amount for 2d3 of damage? And this is all if Twin Spell only has a CL of +4. So, is there any way that is cheaper?
carnivore 02-17-05, 10:29 PM	yes........use Caelics Ninjaficer ;)
Arismir 02-17-05, 10:48 PM	What is that?
MattHawk 02-18-05, 01:05 PM	It is expensive; the only purpose is getting crazy SA dice (my UA-based build got 15d6 sneak attack, making it much more effective then a standard trickster build). The feat Magical Artisan is a good one to reduce costs by a quarter. Also, when crafting, you only pay half the base price. Overall, it's not something you'd want to use frequently, it's more of a last resort weapon - you'd be using Wands of [element or force] Orb, Wands of Ray of Enfeeblement (only in one hand though, since it doesn't stack), and Wands of Acid Splash most of the time, and only pull out the big ones in an emergency. What Carnivore is referring to is using the Artificer class, with that being a specific artificer build. Arts get the ability to use metamagic with exisiting wands by burning extra charges. So that way, you could use cheap old 350gp wands of Acid Splash, and apply the twinning later by using multiple charges (since it's a +4 ability, I think that means you'd burn 4 addtl charges with each wand; could be 5, I don't remember for sure). Hence, you use about 35-45gp worth of charges from each wand each time you do the trick, as opposed to 400-800 gp per wand the traditional way. Another good method of SA is using Alchemist's Fire - it's a ranged touch attack, so SA applies to it and you're going for the touch AC just like attack spells. Since you should already have Quick Draw and TWF, you can just start chucking those flasks at the opponent :) Grab rapid shot, and you'll be able to throw 3 a round early on, albeit with a -4 to all the attacks (the fact that it's touch AC somewhat makes up for things, though).
Pinky's brain 02-18-05, 01:36 PM	Produce flame also lets you do iterative attacks, depending on the DM either spectral hand or reach spell combined with chill touch could work too.
Arismir 02-18-05, 10:14 PM	Thanks alot MattHawk. My big question now, is what level does an artificer gain access to being able to substitute charges for metamagic feats?