Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Verdaloth 04-02-05, 06:05 PM	I dont get it, i have the DMG, and i cant see the big deal about them, why aer they so "good" please explaine how youc an make them a gook class, and why you would want to :rolleyes:
Belldandy 04-02-05, 06:28 PM	Itīs like mystic theurge! It combines rogue and Wizard so you effectvily go up in both (and in the same way many people donīt LIKE mystic theurge people donīt like this for the same reason) it can mae an interesting character, especially when you apply your sneak attack to certain spells! But itīs such a annoyance to get into... too high a level and so Iīve only ever seen a high level one played... nothing too special.... but one day... one day!
Hanniball 04-02-05, 07:48 PM	Verdaloth, the strength behind the arcane trickster (as belldandy somewhat pointed out) is it's full progression in both sneak attack dice and spellcasting. where the real strenght lies is in the combination of these two with ranged touch attack spells cast from hiding or while invisibleplus they have great skills! Spell selection is important as there are a few staple AT spells (the orb spells, ray of frost, and scorching ray) Something as simple as Rog 3/Wiz 5/AT 10/Archmage 2 is viable, powerful and core, but not neccessarily optimized. Early levels are a pain with such a low base attack and your feat slots filled for archmage requirements, but there are many powerful builds out there so do a search and see which one best fits your style of play.
Verdaloth 04-02-05, 08:58 PM	Itīs like mystic theurge! It combines rogue and Wizard so you effectvily go up in both (and in the same way many people donīt LIKE mystic theurge people donīt like this for the same reason) it can mae an interesting character, especially when you apply your sneak attack to certain spells! But itīs such a annoyance to get into... too high a level and so Iīve only ever seen a high level one played... nothing too special.... but one day... one day! I never knew that, or never read that much, you can apply sneak attack damage to certain spell? :eek:
beaver1024 04-02-05, 10:03 PM	One of the better way to get into AT is now through Daggerspell Mage. Wiz 5/Rogue 1/Daggerspell Mage 3/AT 10 will net you a loss of only 2 spellcasting levels as opposed to the traditional Wiz 5/Rogue 3/AT 10. It's such a pity Practised Spellcaster doesn't affect LA levels :(. Otherwise tiefling AT would be awesome.
tommy_the_cat 04-02-05, 10:22 PM	I never knew that, or never read that much, you can apply sneak attack damage to certain spell? Sneak attack dice are triggered by an attack roll made under certian conditions. Some spells (such as scorching ray) use attack rolls to hit their targets. Thus, you are able to apply precision-based damage to them. The big deal (at least, to me) about AT is that you are making your sneak attacks using touch attack rolls, something which greatly benifits a rogue. Also, as mentioned earlier, the class offers full spellcasting progression in addition full sneak attack dice. The two main abilities of two different classes advancing at the same time usually means it's a pretty decent class.
SpoonyBard 04-02-05, 10:37 PM	Mmm... Shocking Grasp for 1d8+5d6+5 damage...
Votan 04-02-05, 10:53 PM	I dont get it, i have the DMG, and i cant see the big deal about them, why aer they so "good" please explaine how youc an make them a gook class, and why you would want to :rolleyes: The loss of three caster levels is dire, poor BAB does not help the situation, d4 hit points per level hurts and the drop to 4 skill points per level is a major cost. For this you get sneak attack progression and spell progression. However, you need at least wizard 5 and to enter the class which means that your maximum sneak attack is seriously hurt. The impromptu sneak attack is nice but only 2/day is really sub-par. The Daggerspell Mage in Complete Adventurer is a lot better -- more hit points, more skill points and some neat special abilities.
Occams_Razor 04-03-05, 12:23 PM	I am actually playing a tiefling rogue/wizard soon to be an arcane trickster, and I would say that I am having a great time playing him, even though at the moment, I am not the primary damage dealer in the group. I am one of the stealthiest characters, the first out of the initiative most times, and I use my wizard spells for offense only occassionally, more for generating sneak attack opportunities for myself, so that I can deal damage competetive with the stronger characters, and with Mage armor and my Dex, I have a survivable AC. While daggerspell mage is nice, I like the flavor of trickster better, and while it seems like with a pre-req of five wiz levels (or sorc levels if you really want) makes the class more of a wizard with some theif skills, I tend to think of the arcane trickster as more of a rogue with potent spellcasting to help out. Using buff spells, spells to help with stealth abilities, and utility spells, an arcane trickster can make a solid contribution to the party (although a high Int is a must for skill points as well as spellcasting, my Tiefling has a 20 Int, and that has been a real help in making up for the wide spread of skills needed.) I would say that optimization-wise, the arcane trickster is not the "perfect" prestige class, but it has a great flavor, and can do pretty well, plus with practiced spellcaster, the loss of 2 or 3 caster levels is negligible (though the feat cost can hurt a little, it's something to grab at later levels, after, I suggest, Craft Wand (so you never run out of ray spells) and Craft Wonderous Item (to help with those skills that need constant buffing)).
Mommy was an Orc 04-03-05, 12:51 PM	I think Daggerspell Mage is now a much better way to make a Rogue/Mage - Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1 with practiced spellcaster can enter by 6th level. By level 6 of Daggerspell Mage, you can start alternating AT levels, finally finishing off with a Wizard level for BAB purposes. Ending up with Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Daggerspell Mage 10/AT 4 - BAB +13, Caster 15th, +7d6 Sneak. The very nice thing about the build is that you're never the weak link of the party. But, I completely disagree with using touch attack rolls with Wizard spells - you're going to have less Wizard spells to begin with and you should use them to make you a functional Rogue. Spells such as Darkvision, Mage Armor, False Life, Heroism, and Polymorph(Annis Hag) go a long, long way towards making it possible to compete as either a TWF or Spiked Chain Tripper. Particularly the 2nd. Rod of Lesser Extend Spell is essential for this. And if you really want touch attacks as a Rogue, just take some flasks of acid or the D&D napalm(blanking on the name offhand) The big deal (at least, to me) about AT is that you are making your sneak attacks using touch attack rolls, something which greatly benifits a rogue. Also, as mentioned earlier, the class offers full spellcasting progression in addition full sneak attack dice. The two main abilities of two different classes advancing at the same time usually means it's a pretty decent class.
Occams_Razor 04-03-05, 01:15 PM	But the sneak attack makes the 0 level ray of frost much more effective! And yes, you should have buffing spells for when you can't do sneak attack damage, but that's why I recommend craft wand, so that you can memorize other spells and still have the ray option available.
Belldandy 04-03-05, 01:48 PM	But the sneak attack makes the 0 level ray of frost much more effective! And yes, you should have buffing spells for when you can't do sneak attack damage, but that's why I recommend craft wand, so that you can memorize other spells and still have the ray option available. HA!!! that sounds like a GREAT idea for any rogue!
Occams_Razor 04-03-05, 01:57 PM	Yep, with a decent UMD check, it works for anyone, but you have to pay for the wands, or find them. Much better if you can make them yourself!
AramilWindwalker 04-03-05, 07:01 PM	Yoou could be a rogue5/wizard1/assassin5/arcane trickster9, and that can be quite mean I am creating an epic Illithid Assassin5/wizard1/rogue1/Arcane trickster10/Daggerspell mage3. He is quite nasty, and has 388 hp, and awesome hiding skills.
AramilWindwalker 04-03-05, 07:03 PM	A wand of ray of frost costs a meager 375 gp, a second level character could buy that.
Belldandy 04-03-05, 07:14 PM	A wand of ray of frost costs a meager 375 gp, a second level character could buy that. Itīs just the UMD or a level of something, or certain feats! bwahahahaha
AramilWindwalker 04-03-05, 07:36 PM	Skill focus(UMD)+5ranks+4cha=+12 at level 2 Not bad
Mommy was an Orc 04-03-05, 10:06 PM	Ray of frost is a lousy choice of a 0 level spell for such tactics - Acid Splash is no SR, no save. Ray of Frost is SR. But that ignores the more important point - you could be someone with the feat TWF and Quickdraw, and then simply throw 2 flasks of acid. No UMD check, same basic attack routine, and more than double the damage. And the pricing is similar to that of a Wand of Acid Splash. ITWF means 4 flasks of acid. No UMD check required and a core PHB item... But the sneak attack makes the 0 level ray of frost much more effective! And yes, you should have buffing spells for when you can't do sneak attack damage, but that's why I recommend craft wand, so that you can memorize other spells and still have the ray option available.
Occams_Razor 04-03-05, 10:14 PM	Sorry, mommy, I wasn't clear about that, yes, there are other ways to do this. The thought was that adding the sneak attack to the caster build (which is really what my character is, a caster with a few Roguish ways to round him out) makes even your pathetic 0-level combat spells something to be contended with at higher levels (Acid Splash or Ray of Frost, it works the same to pump both of them up.) Yep, you could be a flask-chucker, but that just means that you have replicated an effect which is not the entire value of the arcane trickster, you just mimic a part of the whole. There is a lot of versatility that the wand opens the trickster up to, because he can memorize other spells (if he has a wand of scorching ray, he then has space for Cat's Grace, or Bull Strength, or Mirror Image, etc.) It's just a question of broadening options, not that all of them will be completely unique to that character, but that she will have more of them.
Mommy was an Orc 04-03-05, 11:17 PM	Acid Splash isn't affected by SR. Ray of Frost is. When you're fighting Drow as an example, this is a huge difference... In either case, I really don't see how 26.5 damage on average at 20th level can be considered 'something to be contended with at higher levels' Acid Splash or Ray of Frost, it works the same to pump both of them up.
Eye_of_Vecna 04-04-05, 12:32 AM	In Lost Empires of Faerun, there is another rogue/wizard type, the Magelord. His feat requirements are the drawback, needing Signature Spell, Weapon Focus: Ray, Improved Initiative and Spell Mastery. Improved Initiative isn't so bad, but the rest hurt. His strength comes from the fact that he can turn spells into spells he's mastered via Spell Mastery feat and his special abilities. So he is partly a spontaneous caster.
Occams_Razor 04-04-05, 01:46 AM	Acid Splash isn't affected by SR. Ray of Frost is. When you're fighting Drow as an example, this is a huge difference... In either case, I really don't see how 26.5 damage on average at 20th level can be considered 'something to be contended with at higher levels' Correct, I apologize, I was speaking with a bit of exaggeration. But what I meant by saying "same thing" was that my argument is just as valid for acid splash as it is for ray of frost, if not more so. And, yes, I mispoke when I said that is was something to be contended with at higher levels, but I would not say that it is negligible, considering that a 20th level wizard would have absolutely no reason to memorize those spells since the damage they do is completely irrelevant, but an arcane trickster can make them do some work for him, esp. at 20th level, when he doubtless has many resources for provoking sneak attacks, even without his "impromptu sneak attack" ability. I wouldn't say that he is going to be the best damage dealer, by a bit, but he won't be completely useless either. Your points are well-taken, there are some points of playing the character that I will have to work on as I get higher level, but at the same time, I certainly wouldn't put this PrC down as one of the worst, there are definitely worse out there.
Father Dale 04-04-05, 08:50 AM	Don't discount the use of bows with the AT. If you use your magic to set things up right, you can get full round sneak attacks at range. And a AT can definitely buff up his bow, and his self, to get some good attack and damage going.
Khazra Reborn 04-04-05, 11:44 AM	If you can use UA then you can go thug2 instead of rogue3 if you don't mind the skill loss. Also, has anyone considered warmage???The extra BAB, higher HD, light armour & the fact that you may not be able to achieve 9th level spells overall seem to make an interesting character. Could someone tell me what the SA & caster progression is on daggerspell shaper?
Todd 04-04-05, 12:08 PM	Could someone tell me what the SA & caster progression is on daggerspell shaper? Daggerspell Mage has 3 SA dice and 9 Caster Levels in 10 PrC levels. It has better HD and more skill points that Arcane Trickster + a bunch of interesting special abilities. As others have pointed out the most potent combination seems to be using both AT and DSM in a build. FYI, Daggerspell Shaper is a Rogue/Druid PrC. It has the same SA & CL progression as the Daggerspell Mage.
Belldandy 04-04-05, 12:09 PM	But that ignores the more important point - you could be someone with the feat TWF and Quickdraw, and then simply throw 2 flasks of acid. No UMD check, same basic attack routine, and more than double the damage. And the pricing is similar to that of a Wand of Acid Splash. ITWF means 4 flasks of acid. No UMD check required and a core PHB item... Does that work? The rules for two weapon fighting and thrown weapons has always been a mystery to me?! but I`d say the MAIN problem with this (otherwise good idea!) is the weight and SPACE all the flasks take up... (bag of holding comes to mind with a resounding SMACK but doesn`t that take an action to retrieve something!?) ...just pondering...
Khazra Reborn 04-04-05, 12:17 PM	On a side note the followin help rogue/mages: 1.outsider type (neraph from planar handbook is 0la) & polymorph into a kelvezu (either MM" or FF) for extra SA 2.skillfull weapon enhacement for 3/4 BAB.
AramilWindwalker 04-04-05, 02:33 PM	Acid Splash isn't affected by SR. Ray of Frost is. When you're fighting Drow as an example, this is a huge difference... In either case, I really don't see how 26.5 damage on average at 20th level can be considered 'something to be contended with at higher levels' It's saying that even your 0-level spells can do something, it wasn't saying it could do it best.
Mommy was an Orc 04-04-05, 02:40 PM	Page 160, near the bottom left hand side of the page for PHB says paraphrased, that Thrown weapons are treated the same as using weapons in melee. If things don't vaporize in the 1st action or so, then you're likely going to need to reload anyway. An 8th level Rogue throwing 4 flasks can do 20d6 of damage in a round if the target is denied his dex bonus... So you keep say 8 flasks on you and the rest in the bag of holding. That's only 8 lbs. After the combat, pull out some more flasks... Does that work? The rules for two weapon fighting and thrown weapons has always been a mystery to me?! but I`d say the MAIN problem with this (otherwise good idea!) is the weight and SPACE all the flasks take up...
Mommy was an Orc 04-04-05, 03:54 PM	That's just it - they don't really even do something. A Rogue 3/Wizard 5/AT 4 is a 9th level spellcaster with +4d6 of Sneak/+6 BAB. Now say you've taken the following feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Practiced Spellcaster. Your guy casts a 0 level spell that does 1d3+4d6+1(Point Blank Shot). That's an average of 17 with an almost certain to-hit chance. Now try firing 3 arrows with an off the shelf shortbow you cast Extended (Rod of Lesser Extend Spell means spell lasts 24 hours) GMW on(+3). That's 1d6+4d6+3+1 for an average of 21.5. Per shot. Admittedly, the to-hit chance is going to be worse, but it is unlikely to be that much worse. Particularly if you cast Extended Heroism(4 hours a shot) on yourself - only a -1 to hit compared to a Rogue 12 build doing the same routine. Toss Haste into the picture, that's 4 attacks - and Boots of Speed are cheap at 12th level. Anyone who wants to fire a 17 hp attack into a game where they should be doing 42-63hp of damage in that same round is not doing something. It's saying that even your 0-level spells can do something, it wasn't saying it could do it best.
Khazra Reborn 04-04-05, 04:04 PM	Anythoughts on warmage arcane trickster people??
Deathson 04-04-05, 04:44 PM	That's just it - they don't really even do something. A Rogue 3/Wizard 5/AT 4 is a 9th level spellcaster with +4d6 of Sneak/+6 BAB. Now say you've taken the following feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Practiced Spellcaster. Your guy casts a 0 level spell that does 1d3+4d6+1(Point Blank Shot). That's an average of 17 with an almost certain to-hit chance. Now try firing 3 arrows with an off the shelf shortbow you cast Extended (Rod of Lesser Extend Spell means spell lasts 24 hours) GMW on(+3). That's 1d6+4d6+3+1 for an average of 21.5. Per shot. Admittedly, the to-hit chance is going to be worse, but it is unlikely to be that much worse. Particularly if you cast Extended Heroism(4 hours a shot) on yourself - only a -1 to hit compared to a Rogue 12 build doing the same routine. Toss Haste into the picture, that's 4 attacks - and Boots of Speed are cheap at 12th level. Anyone who wants to fire a 17 hp attack into a game where they should be doing 42-63hp of damage in that same round is not doing something. Exactly. You're better off using Prestidigitation to make sure you smell nice when the fights over, if you're down to cantrips. Now, on the other hand ... an acid orb is doing significantly more damage + SA at this point. and could be very much worth it. And the advantage to hit (ranged touch) makes it about a wash with the bow. And it requires significantly less prep-work. Metamagic feats are also your friend. Twin, Split Ray, etc. The only time i would use a cantrip to sneak attack, is some sort of metamagiced out the wazoo sort of ubercantrip. Something like a twinned, split ray. And that for a normal rogue, with UMD. But then you're talking a 4th or 5th level spell /anyway/. Unless you have an artificer friend. Also, to correct a previous poster: Kelvezu, while a very nice form, has the restriction of it's SA only working in melee. Neither your caster, nor your average rogue wants to be stuck in melee. The Arcane trickster wants it even less, unless you have a very specific build. (Teflammar Shadowlord Chill Touch SAing Daggerspell Machine, or the like). Try the Naztharune Rakshasha for SA that works at any speed, as well as an earlier entry point, due to lower HD.
Caelic 04-04-05, 04:49 PM	Well, heck--if you have unrestricted access to UA, the Generic Arcane Spellcaster class is tailor-made for Arcane Trickster. You can wind up with full 20th level spellcasting and 10d6 sneak attack--or 19th level spellcasting and 14d6 sneak attack, if that's your inclination.
glider007 04-04-05, 04:56 PM	Ending up with Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Daggerspell Mage 10/AT 4 - BAB +13, Caster 15th, +7d6 Sneak. The very nice thing about the build is that you're never the weak link of the party. This build doesn't qualify for neither Daggerspell nor AT. You need to cast level3 arcane spells, for which you need at least 5 levels of wizard. With this configuration the earliest you can pick up Daggerspell mage is at level 10.
Deathson 04-04-05, 04:59 PM	No. he uses practiced caster to qualify for Daggerspell Mage, then uses the advancement from Daggerspell to make the reqs for Arcane trickster.
glider007 04-04-05, 05:00 PM	I am not familiar with this (is it a feat?). What is practiced caster? Edit:Hmmm I see that it is a feat but can you tell me what book did this come from?
amanodel 04-04-05, 06:29 PM	that's why the orb spells are so useful and scorching ray...these spells plus sneak attack going through DSM into AT will make the caster give the most damage on his team, with his sneak attack. Why? B/c you only loose two caster levels....And with Practiced spellcaster in terms of determining damage dice, you are a full caster. The only problem with this is that some spells cap off their max damage, but only being 1 spell level behind a true arcane caster you will never cap out your current spell level damage until you get another level with a higher damage, thus making you the best damage dealing character in the game, of course making use of sneak attack and ranged touch attacks.
Christman 04-04-05, 06:39 PM	..... Arcane Trickster + Reach Spell Feat + Spontaneous Wounder. All your nastier Touch range spells become Ray spells with a 30 foot range. Sneak Attack with Inflict spells from a safe distance.
Belldandy 04-04-05, 06:59 PM	No. he uses practiced caster to qualify for Daggerspell Mage, then uses the advancement from Daggerspell to make the reqs for Arcane trickster. it has a SPELLCASTING LEVEL requirement, not a spell level casting requirement? (eg cast as a 5th level wizard rather than cast 3rd level spells!?)
duhtroll 04-04-05, 07:08 PM	I'd rather use a quickened spectral hand. Range of a couple hundred feet at level and doesn't add to the spell level for prep slots. Speaking of which, the spectral hand is listed as incorporeal. Does that mean it gets to use touch spells on incorporeal creatures? Hmm. -A ..... Arcane Trickster + Reach Spell Feat + Spontaneous Wounder. All your nastier Touch range spells become Ray spells with a 30 foot range. Sneak Attack with Inflict spells from a safe distance.
glider007 04-04-05, 07:38 PM	it has a SPELLCASTING LEVEL requirement, not a spell level casting requirement? (eg cast as a 5th level wizard rather than cast 3rd level spells!?) Arcane trickster description says " 3rd level arcane spell" required. Daggerspell description says "arcane caster level 5".
happymoocow 04-04-05, 07:43 PM	Rogue 1/wizard5/daggerspellmage10/arcanetrickter4 is a very common build. In the early levels you are one level behind others. It starts picking up around level 12. I usually play a tanker, melee damage output dealer, tactical combatent (trip or grapple), or healer between 1-12. A fight to the death attitude never hurts - eventually you die and make a new character.
Belldandy 04-04-05, 07:47 PM	Arcane trickster description says " 3rd level arcane spell" required. Daggerspell description says "arcane caster level 5". wow. That certainly seems abusable! :confused: :D
Andarious 04-04-05, 11:03 PM	Enough said.. and personally I'd take Arch mage over daggerspell any day. Why? Arcane trickster is the only class to really make GOOD use out of arcane fire. 0 level spells do 0+arch mage level+sneak attack d6 to practically ANY target. Also doing stuff like mastery of elements and polar ray+sneak attack, impromptu sneak attack if greater invis isn't doing the trick. AT may only progress as a wizard for base attack but so what when you're firing at flat footed touch 9/10 times.
Father Dale 04-05-05, 02:37 AM	An Archmage/AT would be lots of fun, but theres a lot of feats sunk into that build, and AT's really need the feats. Every AT needs point blank and precise shot. Toss in Practiced Spellcaster. Theres three. Three more to get in to the Archmage class (2 Spell Focus's and Skill Focus in Spellcraft). None of these can be taken with that 5th lvl wizard feat either. So there you have six feats. Its doable, but theres not much room for additional feats, like quicken spell and silent spell (a very useful feat for ATs). I guess you could go human, but halflings and elves--and to a degree, gnomes--make the best ATs by far. But yeah, that Arcane Reach could be nasty with the sneak attacks. I still think, though, that using bows to maximize sneak attack damage in a round makes the best use of the AT.
Votan 04-05-05, 09:14 AM	An Archmage/AT would be lots of fun, but theres a lot of feats sunk into that build, and AT's really need the feats. Every AT needs point blank and precise shot. Toss in Practiced Spellcaster. Theres three. Three more to get in to the Archmage class (2 Spell Focus's and Skill Focus in Spellcraft). None of these can be taken with that 5th lvl wizard feat either. So there you have six feats. Its doable, but theres not much room for additional feats, like quicken spell and silent spell (a very useful feat for ATs). I guess you could go human, but halflings and elves--and to a degree, gnomes--make the best ATs by far. This is a general issue with multiple prestige classes and is worse with most of the combination prestige classes. There are 7 feats in 20 levels (8 if human) and most of these need to be taken early to make entry into the prestige class possible when it is needed. The feats that it costs to enter a prestige class can actually work out to be a serious penalty -- especially if they are lousy feats like skill focus (spellcraft) on a wizard.
Father Dale 04-05-05, 12:06 PM	hehe, I have a Dragonlance wizard/Archmage (wizard 5/Wizard of High Sorcery 9/Archmage 1). He gets a +1 racial bonus to spellcraft and a +4 class bonus to spellcraft. Still had to take Skill Focus Spellcraft for the Archmage class. Even without the feat, he would have a +30 to his spellcraft at 15th level, and that without any Int boosting items. So yeah, that is pretty much a wasted feat for a wizard. But back tot he AT/Archmage combo. Something else to consider is having to give up those higher level spell slots to get the Archmage abilitys. I mean, it really hurts even with a full caster, giving up an 8th or 7th or even 9th lvl spell slot. It would be even worse with the AT. For example, lets say you go the feat intensive route of being a rogue 1/wizard 4/daggerspell mage 3/Arcane Trickster 7/Archmage 1. (I think only a human could do this, needing 3 feats by 5th lvl. Still wouldn't have precise shot yet though.) Thus getting to Archmage at 16th lvl and only giving up 2 levels in spell progression. You still only have 7th lvl spells, and only 2 of them at that (unless specializing or unless having an INT of 24+). Some of the Archmage abilities are unaccessible because you don't have the spell slots. Even the ones using just 6th or 7th lvl slots are painful to choose since you don't have that many spells anyways. It just seems sub-optimal to give up those precious spell slots for some of those abilities, when the AT has plenty of its own useful resources. Not to mention all those feats needed!
Andarious 04-05-05, 05:28 PM	Rogue 3 Wiz 5 Arcane Trickster 7 Arch Mage 5 Feats can go "non human" 1Point blank shot 3Percise Shot 6Spell Focus 1 9Spell Focus 2 12Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 15 whaterver ya want (Practiced Spellcaster comes recomended) 18 ditto (Razing strike from complete adventurer is neat) Skills You WILL have to grab cross class ranks in Spell craft and knowledge arcana however as a rogue. 3 in each makes sense anyway right so when you get wiz 1 you can have 4 in each (same as a 1st level starting wiz would). Specializing in illusion or enchantment makes a lot of sense. I'm hard pressed to give up most schools with this character though. you'll be casting 9ths as a 17th level wiz would but with PSC and spell power you can cast as a 21st. So a polar ray (8th) can deal like 26d6 (more than a red wizard 10) However still not as much as a rogue 19 with use magic divice max ranks. Fire off a scroll of Polar Ray for 17d6+10d6 sneak attack. Keep in mind the arcane trickster can cast invis etc and use mastery of elements. Just my 2 cents. It's not so much for the power factor, as the sheer fun of it. Mostly I like arcane reach 1, Spell power, Mastery of Elements, Arcane Fire (it's really amazing for sneak attacks, non elemental damage!), lots you can do.
Father Dale 04-05-05, 06:33 PM	Yeah that would be fun, but look at the costs of doing the archmage there. At 20th lvl, you would have spells per day as a 17th lvl wizard. That is: 1 9th 2 8th 3 7th 4 6th and below Not including bonus spells for high INT or specializing. With the list of 4 archmage abilities you gave, you give up: 1 9th 1 8th 1 7th 1 5th Thats a lot of spells to drop when you don't have much to start with. I mean, a 20th lvl wizard will have 4 spells per day of each lvl, so losing one each lvl isn't quite as big a deal. But when you only have one 9th lvl spell, and you permanently give it up, thats harsh. Now specializing will give you some help, but that has its own costs as well, plus your limited to just one school. You might have an INT high enough to get a bonus 8th or 9th, but getting 2 of them ain't easy. Now, if you're heading into epic levels, it would be doable, as you'll get those extra spells anyways.
Khazra Reborn 04-06-05, 10:21 AM	Hmmmm...i swear warmage would rock, if only people would acknowledge it...
Occams_Razor 04-06-05, 11:19 AM	Warmage would be good at dealing damage, but it would require 3 high ability scores, Dex, Int, and Cha, with any serious deficiency being something of a hit to skills, but I guess this is a draw back to a rogue/sorcerer build also, just moreso here. The other problem would be that you have to add mage hand to the spell list with one of your advanced learnings, which kinda hurts. ALso, you will never reach the highest level of spells, you will cap at 8. Also, many of the buff abilities and complementing spells would not be available, and you would only be able to add one from your extra advanced learning ability. In all, I would say the Warmage could benefit somewhat from AT, but (even if allowed in a campaign as a base playable class) does not really have the same flexibility as the roge/wizard(/daggerspellmage) build that is currently being discussed.
grffnhwk 04-06-05, 01:34 PM	Can you guys come up with a way to add Eldritch Knight somewhere for a little bit more martial rogue/wizard?
Father Dale 04-06-05, 08:48 PM	If you want to add Eldritch Knight into it and still get 9th lvl spells, you will have to use one level of Dragonslayer (from Draconomicon). It will give a +1 spellcasting level and free martial weapon proficiency. Its prereqs are Iron Will and Dodge, +5 BAB, and 2 ranks in tumble. Then you can take Eldritch Knight levels as well. Keep in mind that you would also have to do the Rogue 1/Wizard/Daggerspell Mage route as well. Otherwise you will have only 16th caster level at 20th. So this becomes a feat intensive build. But yeah, it would be possible to mix Rogue/Wizard/Daggerspell Mage/Dragonslayer/Eldritch Knight/Arcant Trickster into one build and have 17th caster level at lvl 20. You can play with the levels of Eldritch Knight, Daggerspell Mage and Arcane Trickster a bit to optimize it. And a 5th lvl of Wizard gives you a wizard feat, but you lose a BAB.