Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meyer_William 09-07-05, 01:37 PM	14th level character -- Complete books, core, libris mortis Str 15 Int 11 Wis 13 (17) Dex 21 (25) Con 12 (16) Char 16 (20) Ac (usually) 29 Admantine Spiked Chain +1, Deadly Precision Gloves of Dex +4 Periapt of Wis +4 Vest of Protection +5 Ring of Protection +3 Belt of Constitution +4 Bag of Holding, Type 2 Ring of Sustenance Cloak of Charisma+4 Spells: 1st Enlarge Person Magic Missile Master's Touch Orb of Sound, lesser Shield 2nd Alter Self Scorching Ray See Invisibility Wraith Strike 3rd Magic Weapon Greater Mage Armor Greater Blink 4th Polymorph Invisibility, greater 5th Nightstalker's Transformation Rogue 2: Ninja 1: Swashbuckler 1: Sorceror 6: Arcane Trickster 4 Feats: Combat Reflexes Weapon Finesse Power Attack Cleave Greater Cleave Arcane Strike Razing Strike Combat Technique: Greater Invisibiity (round 1) Enlarge Person (round 2) Mastery (round 3) Wraith Strike each round (if applicable) Arcane Strike (if applicable) When there are less foes -- Polymorph into Troll Round 1 -- instead of enlarge person. Thoughts on ways to improve it ..
Blade2718 09-07-05, 01:55 PM	Too much buffing and not enough synergies in your build. Swashbucker's best ability is at 3rd level (which you don't have) but is Int based (against the primary casting stat). Ninja's ki abilities (such as ghost step) require a good Wis, so that's another stat to boost. Sorcerers have limited spell selection, which limits your utility spells. And you plan on entering melee durning the weakest points in your build, levels 5-13. And you lack proficiency in the weapon you plan on using. Go look up fidelio's analysis on the Arcane Trickster. Its in the Optimization Library (link in sig).
Mommy was an Orc 09-07-05, 01:57 PM	If you're playing with those books and starting off at 14th level, I'd go with one of the following builds: Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Daggerspell Mage 6/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 2 - cast spells in light armor, 10th level Wizard caster or Rogue 3/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 2 - cast spells in light armor, lots of skill monkey levels, and access to 6th level spells.
Kuroi Kenshi 09-07-05, 02:00 PM	^ Seconded.
Meyer_William 09-07-05, 02:28 PM	Goal is to use Spiked Chain while enlarged and invisible ... This character will be filling the rogue slot ... not the arcane caster slot ... so self-buffing is not an issue, especially since most spells last for hours/level ... nor is the amount of spells used to be proficient in combat. Master's touch gives proficiency with any weapon. Character starts at 14th level (backup character for current character) Damage should be as follows: 1d6 (ninja sudden strike) 1d6 (rogue sneak attack) 2d6 (arcane trickster sneak attack) 2d6 (deadly pricision) 2d6 (enlarged spiked chain) 5d4 (arcane strike) (if needed with 5th level spell) +14 (power attack) +3 (magic weapon) +3 (strength) = 8d6+5d4+20 =33-88 damage per hit, 60.5 on average Bonus to hit +6 (dex inc penalty for enlarge person) +5 (arcane strike) -1 (size) +3 (magic weapon) = +13 for all attacks in a round (which are touch attacks (wraith's strike) against opponents denied dex (improved invisibility - or blink, depending)) With ninja/rogue/swashbuckler/arcane trickster -- the reflex save is through the roof, which allows the arcane caster to rain reflex saves down on me all day ... Anyone moving within 20 feet of me provokes (spiked chain, enlarged) ... cleave / great cleave allow me to generate tons of attacks per round ...
UMiskatonic 09-07-05, 04:50 PM	With all due respect, you seem to have built a niche character. He's good at what he does, I'll grant you that. There are other ways to look at it, though. 1) Opportunity cost. Is this character as good as some other 14th level guy that you could make? Take a look at Snow Savant's chain-gun tripper, for example, and see what you can do with a spiked chain and LOTS of feats. 2) Versatility vs. Specialization. When your tactics don't work they way you planned, what then? For example, if you face flying archers, or rogues with spring attack, or mages who are NOT evokers, what then? Cloudkill is going to hurt, to say nothing of dominate person. Incorporeal opponents will avoid 50% of the huge number of attacks that you make. I'm not saying you are helpless, but focusing so narrowly does cause some difficulties. A less focused build, like fighter 14, at least ensures a certain amount of versatility. A high level fighter with a chair is still dangerous, he's got hit points, he's got base attack, and he's ready to hurt you RIGHT NOW. Up against a guy like this, you're asking for three rounds to cast spells. Good luck surviving those three rounds. Even if all he has is the chair, he's probably going to charge and grapple you, and you're done after that. Three rounds against a 14th level wizard, and you'll have even less of a chance. I think the earlier posters are right. You have a good start, but there's still room for improvement.
Sieylianna 09-07-05, 05:44 PM	Goal is to use Spiked Chain while enlarged and invisible ... This character will be filling the rogue slot ... not the arcane caster slot ... so self-buffing is not an issue, especially since most spells last for hours/level ... nor is the amount of spells used to be proficient in combat. We have an enlarged spiked chain fighter in a home game at 2nd level. Greater invisibility only requires a 7th level caster. By the time you're 14th level, a huge percentage of your opponents should laugh at this trick. Also note that invisible 20 x 20 creatures tend to take a lot of collateral damage from their companions. Another couple of rules items, spell casting requires one hand be free. That is tough with a two handed weapon (depending on how lenient your DM is with free actions). Enlarge person takes a full round to cast, so you can't do AoO in the 2nd round without losing the spell. Ed
Namarus 09-07-05, 07:48 PM	Hmm, I am curious about your build. No improved trip feat? Your character's predicted strength is pretty poor to say the least, how do you intend to succeed the str test to trip the enemy? The number of buffs that you will need to get the character combat effective is a substantial amount of time at higher levels. You could be taking a lot of combat damage. Relying on spells that can be negated by enemy casters for your damage is a bad way to go at higher levels. 1 dispell magic, and your toast all buffs gone, and then you would be torn apart by melee based character who has more str than you and hence a high chance of passing the trip test, if you even get a chance to get an AOO in, most melees have at least 1 point of tumble to travel easily about the battlefield. Undead, what about them? Or other types of creatures that are immune to critical hits? Thats most of your damage down the drain.
Meyer_William 09-08-05, 08:28 AM	*grimace* Was not going the trip route ... was just using the spiked chain as a weapon to deal damage with ... not to be fancy. The build was not too concerned about tumbling, as it would be invisible throughout combat, so melees would either need to tumble through all squares (cutting down on mobility) or i would get a chance to strike them (most likely) Namarus: Not concerned too much about Dispel Magic -- as for some reason -- this is never done in this campaign. We use it on NPCs to dispell their buffing, but they rarely attempt it on us ... not sure why. (metagaming) Oops .. Forgot about adding Razing Strike as a feat to this character ... was part of the initial work -- but never made it into the copy I posted ... The cleric in the group would be casting "Imbue with spell ability" on me to allow me to use razing strike versus undead, my normal spells would then allow me to handle constructs ... Sieylianna: I would be 10x10 -- not 20x20 (reach, not size). I guess I had overlooked the whole "you need one hand free to cast spells" part of things (never made a caster with weapons before) UMiskatonic: Rogues with spring attack should not be an issue, as I am invisible, which means that although they cannot be flanked, they are still dex-less (hence sneak attackable). All: I agree that this guy needs a ton of work -- and based on what i have seen so far -- needs to go back to the drawing board ... but -- thats why i came here :) -- thanks
Father Dale 09-08-05, 03:28 PM	Look over your spell selections too. You have Enlarge Person, Alter Self, and Polymorph. For a spontaneous caster with limited spells known, this is a great amount of overlap. Why worry about Enlarge Person when you can Polymorph? Why worry about Alter Self when you can Polymorph? You can essentially duplicate or mimic these spells with the Polymorph spell, so drop them and learn something more useful. With a spontaneous caster, you should focus on using the spells that have a lot of versatility, particularly those that duplicate or mimic other similiar spells. Example: Break Enchantment instead of Remove Curse. Polymorph any Object instead of Polymorph, Flesth to Stone, etc.
Meyer_William 09-08-05, 04:15 PM	I haven't researched all the things i can turn into -- plus -- only have access to the monster manual 1 -- wanted enlarge person for reach, and keeping most of my dex (-2 size reduction) -- versus the polymorphing into troll (lower dex, less attacks of opportunity) Alter self -- lasts a long time 10 min/lvl so it is useful to boost my AC (natural armor) when i am enlarged (but not polymorphed)
Blade2718 09-08-05, 06:51 PM	Was not going the trip route ... was just using the spiked chain as a weapon to deal damage with ... not to be fancy.You are STILL lacking proficiency in the weapon. The build was not too concerned about tumbling, as it would be invisible throughout combat...UMiskatonic: Rogues with spring attack should not be an issue, as I am invisible, which means that although they cannot be flanked, they are still dex-less (hence sneak attackable).Invisibility is easily defeated at your starting level, anyway (scent, glitterdust, true seeing, tremorsense, blindsense, et cetera, et cetera). Sudden Strike doesn't work in the easiest situation to establish (flanking), but I am at least glad you didn't invest too much into Ninja.
Tarlog 09-09-05, 09:24 AM	Simple Rog 1 / UA Fighter (Sneak attack Variant) 1/ Wiz 5/AT 7 for 12 Arcane caster level seems best to me. Get two Spell Storing Weapons, charge them with Maximized Lightning Bolts, Add Arcane strike (6th level spells) and you're on. May think to Add Spellsword... Anyway, spiked chain isn't best choice for AT
Meyer_William 09-09-05, 09:28 AM	Unearthed Arcana is not an allowed book ... Proficency in the weapon is through the mastery spell ...
Ditta 09-09-05, 09:55 AM	Hold up... Wait, this may not be constructive... but... why do you have cleave? your using a spiked chain. You can't cleave with a spiked chain right? it has to be a slashing weapon aint it?
Namarus 09-09-05, 05:06 PM	Hold up... Wait, this may not be constructive... but... why do you have cleave? your using a spiked chain. You can't cleave with a spiked chain right? it has to be a slashing weapon aint it? Wrong! If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Any melee weapon.
Sieylianna 09-09-05, 05:45 PM	Sieylianna: I would be 10x10 -- not 20x20 (reach, not size). I guess I had overlooked the whole "you need one hand free to cast spells" part of things (never made a caster with weapons before) Technically, you need one hand free to cast spells with somatic components. You could take the still spell feat and wield the spiked chain, but I still think the one round casting time would prevent you from taking AoO while enlarging yourself. (I reviewed the PHB and it's not clear. What seemed clear is that if you did take an AoO, you would have to make a concentration check to avoid losing the spell, but the concentration skill doesn't have any examples to help set the DC). Ed